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Armory system backfires?Follow

#1 May 17 2012 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Just to warm up some half-rotten dead horse, I bring you a blast from the past with a quote from
today`s official forum. Personally, i think they have a point. Combining skills from different jobs
and classes is all nice and dandy, but the moment i realized I have to level *crapboring* gladiator
just to get sentinel, I was rather, well... not amused. While in theory the armoury system is
a pretty cool idea to increase the game`s longevity and replayability, newcomers may be equally
pretty shocked by PT requirements like "Sentinel, Quickstride and and Chainspell only"...
So. Now go and sub-default me. For being too inflexible to play a warrior half the time when
all I want to do is heal people.

Quote:
E: People have been telling me a lot if I dont level every class I wont accomplish much in this game? Well that ladies and gentlemen is a load of nonsense, If I for example want to only play a White Mage then what does it matter if I dont have Warrior or Black Mage leveled? I will play what I enjoy as should everyone.

A: I totyally agree with this one. I Think 99% of gamers in FFXIV lvl up every class because they think there will be more probability that they get a pt than if they lvl up 1 or 2 classes that they love. This game lacks people that play what they love. Everybody plays everything and the worst part is that because of that they spend all their money in getting stuff for every class intead of focusing all that money to get the most amazing piece of gear (with materia) for one class. If people play something that they don't totally love they will complain about the game because they will not be following their bliss. They are doing what others think they should be doing in order to get something. That makes anyone angry against the whole game, devs and players overtime. Moreover, usually the people that say they love all the classes mean that they don't know what they want that's why they don't do a good job with ALL of them.
#2 May 17 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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I would agree as I felt kinda the same about sub jobs in FF11. I usually prefer to focus on one or two jobs and try and be the best I can be at them. Hard to do when you must level 3 other jobs that hold no interest at all just for a few skills.

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#3 May 17 2012 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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I would just hope that the bard or thaum leveled CNJ do they could raise you after Astral Flows. Oh/. But I just want to sing and nuke.
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#4 May 17 2012 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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It's useful, but I wish the game did a better job of internally explaining the system to newbies. I didn't even realize it was a good idea until my best friend who is playing with me as I pick this game up bragged 'I got all my jobs to level 10 already!' and I asked her why she was bothering with that...
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#5 May 17 2012 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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I honestly haven't heard of anybody making this "requirement" in the recent past. I know they did before jobs came out, but after that I haven't heard anybody say they required certain skills. Yes they make it easier, but they certainly aren't required. What are they going to do when bard can't use sentinel? Never use a bard in a party? That's just ridiculous. If people are doing this, then you should probably want to stay away from those parties anyways since they put so much weight on certain abilities. If you only want to play a certain job, then only level that job and it's sub. Don't worry about the ones that have no impact on the one you enjoy. I could understand this only before jobs weren't out. That was when you basically HAD to have them to survive the two hours. This just isn't the case anymore. Any party worth it's meat can make it past the two hours as long as they meet the fight requirements, e.g. kill enough plumes during garuda battle or take out as many inferno nails as possible during ifrit.
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#6 May 17 2012 at 10:09 AM Rating: Default
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While i do agree that by no means do you need everything to 50 to have fun, you still need a bare minimum to not be the weakest link in the group. Example, if you want to play purely LNC/DRG by all means for for it, but still cover all the bases on the job. To be optimal skill wise on a job you need to have 3, 50 classes and that's an unavoidable fact. As odd as it seems most did not level everything to 50 to have it all and be a master of none. Most like my self did it so they can play the 2-3 main job's I they love most. I may have all 50's but all my money goes in to BLM/THM and WAR/MRD, not because people want me on them, but because i am good and like playing those classes.

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#7 May 17 2012 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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If the Armoury system failed, then the XI subjob system failed. You had to level multiple jobs/classes in both to gain preffered skills. Both systems make the game harder to balance & instill player induced standards. All this could be avoided if jobs couldn't access any sub class/job skills in either game. Obviously limiting cross classing avenues still isn't appeasing everyone. Or threads such as this wouldn't appear.

There has also been debate on having both systems existing at the same time is redundant. An argument is also made that some jobs solo better than classes anyway. If SE removed the ability for jobs to cross class, more identity would be distinguishable between jobs, players who prefer vertical progress in one job wouldn't have to level horizontally, and it would ease time commitment for those players. To keep classes viable. Classes would have 2-5 innate non shared skills to keep each class distinct enough. Then the limit of the pool of available cross class skills could be removed. For instance a gladiator could select from any class & distribute skills as wanted. They could not however cross class a different classes most powerful/unique skills. The action bar would limit or forces the player to choose loadouts carefully.

Some players may argue if this happened jobs would be gimped compared to classes. But if SE stuck to their credo of jobs for parties & classes for solo & designed jobs or classes with that mindset. All would be good imo. Jobs get the potency & perform one superior intended role with no ability to be self sufficient, they rely on the party to support them. Classes get the survivability & can perform multiple roles but not at the same efficiency as a job would in any particular role, They can be self sufficient with a friend or solo. This would stop the redundancy & make both systems viable imo.
It would also leave SE with the opportunity to introduce more classes or jobs without stepping on each others toes.

BLM would be nuker, not a sleeper, or support heal or w/e. IT has no damage mitigation. It can't solo well if something doesn't die quickly, a true glass cannon. Emnity would become the test between a good or bad blm in pts. Does the party need me to maintain my composure and pace my nukes to continuously deal damage or does the situation call for me to go balls to the wall & sacrifice myself for victory?

WHM would be healer, not a nuker , or support refresh. It can't deal damage or solo well due to it's weak damage inducing skills. Emnity would become the test between a good or bad whm in parties.

And so on & so forth. But SE, why can't my whm solo anything worthwhile? It doesn't need to, if you want xp for your whm go solo on it's starter class. But SE, why can't my Dragoon solo that NM? Because while the damage you dish out is great. The NM you are attempting outpaces you in damage dealt. Try changing to lancer, the fight may take longer. But your self sufficient damage mitigation & heals may turn the tide. If it doesn't switch back to Dragoon, grab some friends & enforce your will. But SE, why doesn't that party invite my marauder to that extremely difficult raid? Because the enemies in that event have extremely high def & deal huge damage that your self sufficiency does diddly squat.
#8 May 17 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:
If the Armoury system failed, then the XI subjob system failed. You had to level multiple jobs/classes in both to gain preffered skills. Both systems make the game harder to balance & instill player induced standards. All this could be avoided if jobs couldn't access any sub class/job skills in either game. Obviously limiting cross classing avenues still isn't appeasing everyone. Or threads such as this wouldn't appear.

There has also been debate on having both systems existing at the same time is redundant. An argument is also made that some jobs solo better than classes anyway. If SE removed the ability for jobs to cross class, more identity would be distinguishable between jobs, players who prefer vertical progress in one job wouldn't have to level horizontally, and it would ease time commitment for those players. To keep classes viable. Classes would have 2-5 innate non shared skills to keep each class distinct enough. Then the limit of the pool of available cross class skills could be removed. For instance a gladiator could select from any class & distribute skills as wanted. They could not however cross class a different classes most powerful/unique skills. The action bar would limit or forces the player to choose loadouts carefully.

Some players may argue if this happened jobs would be gimped compared to classes. But if SE stuck to their credo of jobs for parties & classes for solo & designed jobs or classes with that mindset. All would be good imo. Jobs get the potency & perform one superior intended role with no ability to be self sufficient, they rely on the party to support them. Classes get the survivability & can perform multiple roles but not at the same efficiency as a job would in any particular role, They can be self sufficient with a friend or solo. This would stop the redundancy & make both systems viable imo.
It would also leave SE with the opportunity to introduce more classes or jobs without stepping on each others toes.

BLM would be nuker, not a sleeper, or support heal or w/e. IT has no damage mitigation. It can't solo well if something doesn't die quickly, a true glass cannon. Emnity would become the test between a good or bad blm in pts. Does the party need me to maintain my composure and pace my nukes to continuously deal damage or does the situation call for me to go balls to the wall & sacrifice myself for victory?

WHM would be healer, not a nuker , or support refresh. It can't deal damage or solo well due to it's weak damage inducing skills. Emnity would become the test between a good or bad whm in parties.

And so on & so forth. But SE, why can't my whm solo anything worthwhile? It doesn't need to, if you want xp for your whm go solo on it's starter class. But SE, why can't my Dragoon solo that NM? Because while the damage you dish out is great. The NM you are attempting outpaces you in damage dealt. Try changing to lancer, the fight may take longer. But your self sufficient damage mitigation & heals may turn the tide. If it doesn't switch back to Dragoon, grab some friends & enforce your will. But SE, why doesn't that party invite my marauder to that extremely difficult raid? Because the enemies in that event have extremely high def & deal huge damage that your self sufficiency does diddly squat


I don't even..... what is this?? Half of that is false, the other make's no logical sens, and the rest is stuff you look at a per case deal. Not blind generalization.

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#9 May 17 2012 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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The sub job system failed because there were too many jobs filling the same or similar roles. There was a 'best' job for almost anything you wanted to do in XI. If you swapped dats to make several characters look like they were in the same armor, you might never be able to distinguish one job from the next because of main jobs relying so heavily (or in some cases so little) on their selected sub.

It's nearly the same for XIV. People feel that the main class or job draws too much of it's identity from the abilities you equip from other classes. Being able to change your job at will should have been good enough. Allowing any class to equip a set of abilities from another class blurs the lines that define each job or class. I'm not really certain what SE was aiming for with this system.




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#10 May 17 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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The main reasons I'm not a fan of the armoury system in this game is because it forces those who want to play their class of choice to level other classes regardless of whether they have any interest in those classes or not, and it makes each class less unique. I'd rather see each class be given more versatile skills unique to that class than to have them simply ripping abilities from other classes. For example, if gladiator and marauder are both supposed to viable "tank" classes, give them both unique taunts and damage mitigation skills rather than just allowing them to equip each others' skills. This let's people play as many or as few classes they want without being penalized on the classes they do play, and it prevents classes from being too similar to each other.
#11 May 18 2012 at 9:58 AM Rating: Default
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I only played XIV to level 31, but I certainly felt that the armory system seems bland and doesn't have much have FF feel. Certainly, classes don't seem distinctive enough visually or ability wise. When I think FF I think White/Red/Black Mage, Dark Knight, Summoner, etc... I'm not sure why these things weren't in there from the start really.
#12 May 18 2012 at 11:42 AM Rating: Default
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Susanoh wrote:
The main reasons I'm not a fan of the armoury system in this game is because it forces those who want to play their class of choice to level other classes regardless of whether they have any interest in those classes or not, and it makes each class less unique. I'd rather see each class be given more versatile skills unique to that class than to have them simply ripping abilities from other classes. For example, if gladiator and marauder are both supposed to viable "tank" classes, give them both unique taunts and damage mitigation skills rather than just allowing them to equip each others' skills. This let's people play as many or as few classes they want without being penalized on the classes they do play, and it prevents classes from being too similar to each other.


Well i don't know if you ever played Final Fantasy Tactics for the PS1, but what we have now is closely connected to that game. And is in fact very FF like, as hard as you may think it's not. In any FF title with a job system it is made so that depending on a battle you need specific job's classes, and it disregards weather you like playing it or not. The content will always be oriented to favor different classes depending on what you are doing. An that is in a way what FF is really about, about people needing to bend to the changing situation rather then have content welcoming everyone with open arms.

For many years i played FFXI, and i can honestly say 1/2 that time i played job's i never really liked. But that is was required, as such i job changed and made the most out of it. I loved monk, but in 90% of the end game that fell short, so instead of throwing a fit i looked for fun things in the job's i didn't like and enjoined them.

What i am gathering here is that people want more of a WoW feel were one dps,tank,heals job can do the job as well as the next dps,tank,heals. Making every job/class optimal for nearly all content. This is also a good system as it never leaves you hanging if you are not playing the flavor of the month. However this simplify's the game to much for some. True that the FF system, as is, dilutes the job definition in a way, it allows a person to define the class/job as they see fit.
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#13 May 18 2012 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
For many years i played FFXI, and i can honestly say 1/2 that time i played job's i never really liked. But that is was required, as such i job changed and made the most out of it. I loved monk, but in 90% of the end game that fell short, so instead of throwing a fit i looked for fun things in the job's i didn't like and enjoined them.


That sounds kinda sad. Smiley: frown

I think the idea behind the current armory system is that it attempts to mitigate some of that loljob mindset of FFXI where some jobs are relegated as wholly undesirable or only useful in specific circumstances. Even if your specialty job isn't suited to a task, your class may be able to borrow the "missing ingredient" needed if you're short-handed or soloing.

But there's still the issue of having the right number of specialty jobs for any party situation. Too many healers, and you're sidelined or forced into a job you don't want to do. Not enough healers, and you're canceling events or, again, forced into a job you don't want to do. However, this is what the people wanted, and this is what they got.

It still sounds sad, though, if 50% of the time, you're doing a job you don't like. Smiley: oyvey Hopefully, it doesn't turn out so badly this time.

Edited, May 18th 2012 2:00pm by Xoie
#14 May 18 2012 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:


Well i don't know if you ever played Final Fantasy Tactics for the PS1, but what we have now is closely connected to that game. And is in fact very FF like, as hard as you may think it's not.


To be fair, FFT had it's "best" list of jobs. Also there were some game breaking ability combos.
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#15 May 18 2012 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, such things work perfectly well in single player games, where Job balance is
completely unimportant. Balancing such systems in a MMO, where players want
their Job to shine just as much as the next one must be a nightmare, though.
#16 May 18 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Just to clear the air about something, there are only 2 abilities above 30 that you can equip cross class. Sacred Prism (34), and Fira (34), from Con and Thm respectively.

Considering that, there should be no need to level any class above 30 to use with another class. This is very similar to 11, however, actually much more restrictive. Where 11 allowed you to use All abilities from any one class, 14 allows you to use up to 5 cross-classable abilities from Any class (for classing), or upto 5 cross-classable abilities from 2 other classes (for Jobs).

This makes it very restrictive in that a Mrd and a Gld wearing the exact same gear will perform differently, and will not have the same abilities (see Gld under completely deprecated Classes, Listed right after Pld...). It also means that a Thm and a Con, while both being able to work as Nukers, will always end up with Con being able to out-heal a thm, and a thm always being able to out nuke a Con.

Even on the class level, there are distinctions. It's just that at the class level, they (individual characters) can operate independently, where as Jobs are far more dependent on their team mates (with the exception of War...).

I am curious to the reasons people feel that the armory system failed. Since the 1.20 update, you no longer get full access to all abilities from all jobs. The gear changes have made it harder for certain jobs to replace others, and since they have elemental and damage type modifiers finally working in their damage calculations, along with different classes having different ranges, attack rates, damage levels, you really don't have any two classes that act the same.

The perfect example of this the need/desire for specific classes or jobs for different end-game tasks. There really is no longer the ability to just throw any 5 people into a party with a tank and two healers. There are battle situations that pugs/mnks excel at, there are situations where bards are greatly desired. Thms/blms are obscene magic DDs, and Lancers/drg help with mob control and over-all damage.

So, distinction is no longer an issue. The added ability to go into a dungeon Raid, fight your way through with a party setup, then re-classing your party just before the boss fight adds a dynamic that is rather new, and not fully explored (it's getting their quickly though).

And while a large problem is just things to do, and places to fight, it's getting better with the different hamlet defenses, Dungeons, and primal fights, but from what I have seen with my different linkshells is that, while people are bored, and don't know what to do, they also seem to not want to do the different raids.

It would be nice to have wide arching stories like the the Rank missions, or expansion missions from 11 (lets face it CoP was probably the most fun in 11, and well, the RoZ quests weren't bad either). The current content has no development feel to it. It's just do it over and over again (other than the Job quests, but most people chewed through those in a week).

Back to the OP, I am just really missing the fail in the armory system. The Classes are dynamic, yet different from each other. There is still enough missing from the current classes that they could easily add more. The ability list is limited to where they can even advance the existing classes without negatively impacting others. And, while most people are still stuck on Raise, Cure, Second Wind, Feather Foot, and invigorate, those don't make you the same as any other class with those 5 abilities equiped.

Wow, I can tell I came back to this about 5 times to continue the thought... I guess I am just feel that a lot of prejudice to the Armory system is based on it's original implementation. The work that Yoshi's team did with re-defining the classes I feel actually worked, but that's just my 2 cents.
#17 May 18 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoin it is simply a matter of how you look at thing's that changes the perspective. Example a win/win would be do what you like with the job/class you like, is what most people want in a MMO. The balance and the area of complaint is the compromise of doing something your not fond of with a job you like, or do something you like with a job you're not a fan of.

As for the issues you stated, really that's a common issue across all mmo's with little if any exceptions. You will always need an assigned tank (least one), assigned heals (least one), that part is unavoidable, the issue which is making people loose sleep is the DPS "Why must i level X, when i like A or B or C better?" If i am not mistaking. And really that's an issue that is the same across the genre, not just xiv.

Well Rinsui, i don't know how to brake it to you but even in single player game's there is a notifiable lack of balance, which is implied. Mage's are the glass canons, which in game such as skyrim can be made to 1 shot kill, and barely even be scratched. Job/Class balance is a "concept" but in my opinion not a viable reality.

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#18 May 18 2012 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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I honestly liked the original armory system better than this one. I know a lot of people don't agree but w/e... I find it too restrictive now and I don't like the new pacing of combat. It is too jerky

Like PUG was the first EVER monk-like class I've ever liked in an MMO, loved the mechanics of it. Now it is just ... not good at all.

Edited, May 18th 2012 3:04pm by Olorinus
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#19 May 18 2012 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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There might be a misunderstanding here - my apologies, seems like I've not been clear enough. Of course there's
class imbalance in single player games. Point is just: who cares. It's you alone who is playing, so you are free to
play however sucky you want. However, in a MMO things change. Suddenly it's not just you who is playing, but
you also have a certain "responsibility" to contribute meaningfully to the group. And this:

Quote:
The added ability to go into a dungeon Raid, fight your way through with a party setup, then re-classing your party just before the boss fight adds a dynamic that is rather new, and not fully explored


is right the thing i do not like about the armoury system. Because this makes me able to (and as such, be expected to)
change my character on the fly to cheese my way through the content by casting aside the very definition of my character
(it's Job) whenever a pudding monster happens to show up in a dungeon. That's not innovative new tactics. That's just
gearswap 2.0. Just that you have to level every "gear" you swap in, so to speak.

Also, subjobs in FFXI were a little more bearable in my opinion; you could only level them to 37 (when I quit) anyway,
and use only the abilities of one at a time. Hopefully the whole class concept dies in a fire anyway; because jobs seem
to go into the right direction by offering more for party play than classes, with reasonable variation (two "subjobs") that
does not require you to resort to powerleveling 7 professions just to be accepted as a well-rounded member of the team.
#20 May 18 2012 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Yes, such things work perfectly well in single player games, where Job balance is
completely unimportant. Balancing such systems in a MMO, where players want
their Job to shine just as much as the next one must be a nightmare, though.


Pretty much this.

The armory system and subjob mechanics aren't a failure by themselves, it's just that there isn't good synergy with the group play and encounter mechanics. The community then enforces the 'you must be this tall to ride' mentality of pigeon-holing people into leveling jobs for cookie-cutter builds. I'm not totally against cookie-cutter because there will always be a 'best' composition for nearly any encounter or instance, but it's almost forced when you blur the identity of classes so much.

You also have to consider that PvP will be implemented at some point as well and even though we don't know exactly how it will work, the armory doesn't translate well from a traditional standpoint.
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#21 May 19 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
I honestly liked the original armory system better than this one. I know a lot of people don't agree but w/e... I find it too restrictive now and I don't like the new pacing of combat. It is too jerky

Like PUG was the first EVER monk-like class I've ever liked in an MMO, loved the mechanics of it. Now it is just ... not good at all.

Edited, May 18th 2012 3:04pm by Olorinus

I feel the same about the old armoury system. But it did need a few skill/innate skills per class like FFT, so the classes weren't too blurred. I feel SE went a tad overboard on restricting classes. Jobs should be more powerful & restricted as I said earlier. But to do the same to classes makes both systems seem redundant. Keeping both systems different opens up more possibilities for different jobs or classes with less toe stepping.

I didn't like the stamina system for three big reasons.
1. Latency due to selecting every single action & the servers lagging behind.
2. A stamina system mixed with cooldowns & TP, seemed to convoluted.
3. It didn't feel weighty like other stamina based systems, felt more like a hack n slash.(Demon/Dark souls mastered it)

I feel it could have worked better had they implemented a queue system like XIII oe Legend Of Legaia. But with no cooldowns or tp. Commands would cost stamina or mp. They needed more unique basic attacks as well. Once you set your queue, it would auto repeat until you queued up a different combo of commands.

Now here we are today with Auto Attack. I don't hate it, it works, but it also works in god knows how many mmos. It just doesn't help set this game apart from other mmos. Anything that was unique to this combat system such as incapacitations or battle regiments. Has either been downplayed or drifted into obscurity. Maybe they will take precedence in 3.0?

The one mechanic that I feel had the most potential was ousted before any shots at streamlining or being refined. This mechanic was the power/action gauge. It had the potential to add weight or precision to skill activations. It just needed to be converted to the hardware side & not waiting for a bar on screen to fill. Say like press hotkey & release immediately equals an accurate, weaker, but quicker activation. Hold it down 3 seconds equals slightly buffed version. Hold it down 6 seconds to lose accuracy but gain potency potential sort of like a crit I guess. Only apply this to commands and not basic attacks. Imagine the applications for precision & how your timing would alter skills.
Range
Potency
Accuracy
MP cost
Radius
Damage crit
Casting time
Effect durations

I got more but I can imagine how detailed precision could be unique to various commands. I wish they could bring it back to exist alongside auto attack. Refined & intuitive of course.

PvP in theory is built perfectly for the armoury system depending on how it's implemented. It will persist of loadout builds similar to many single player games. I believe GW 1 was similar and it gets touted as some of the best mmo PvP following Daoc. The potential for a big balance issue is possible if SE allows classes and jobs in the same events since both systems showcase different strengths. Also unless there is a level capped area or option. People with less skills/classes unlocked are going to be fighting with both hands tied behind their backs. Maybe SE will do the GW2 thing & just auto max you in that content. So anyone can begin PvP on equal ground, Who knows?

Edited, May 19th 2012 5:06pm by sandpark
#22 May 19 2012 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
The one mechanic that I feel had the most potential was ousted before any shots at streamlining or being refined. This mechanic was the power/action gauge. It had the potential to add weight or precision to skill activations. It just needed to be converted to the hardware side & not waiting for a bar on screen to fill. Say like press hotkey & release immediately equals an accurate, weaker, but quicker activation. Hold it down 3 seconds equals slightly buffed version. Hold it down 6 seconds to lose accuracy but gain potency potential sort of like a crit I guess. Only apply this to commands and not basic attacks. Imagine the applications for precision & how your timing would alter skills.


The problem with this mechanic (and the main beef the testers had with it) was that it was too slow. Even if the action processed instantly on releasing the button, you're still sitting there for 3 to 6 seconds charging up a move. The kicker with that system was that somehow SE managed to take the idea and make it worse by adding a mechanic that reset your power to 0 if you waited too long.

Imagine charging an ability for 6 seconds and timing your release perfectly, but because of server side delay you get credited with overcharging the ability and it processes shortly after the power bar resets to 0. You waited all that time and ended up being less effective than you would if you were just spamming the ability in the first place.

I like your idea about the buffs, but I'd rather see that in the form of short duration buffs that come from short cooldown abilities and reactive abilities. Something like an ability that absorbs a certain amount of incoming damage and reflects it(for shield), adds it to your next attack(for dps) or increases the magic attack of your next spell(caster) if you time it correctly. Low cooldown abilities that buff ranged accuracy by sacrificing attack power or vice versa. An ability that lowers the accuracy of your next attack but adds a debuff based on the damage of the attack. The more powerful the attack, the more accuracy is reduced but the longer the duration of the debuff.

Things like this add dimension to the combat system, they add some depth to party play and just make the game feel more interactive. I am thoroughly feeling TERA right now for that same reason. The combat is like a mix of MMO and FPS. You don't just stand there trading blows until one of you fall, you need to move and react to things mobs or other players are doing and you need to plan your movement and actions. If you spam abilities you usually end up firing off that fluid 5 second combo in the wrong direction; meanwhile your opponent has either dodged completely, jumped out of the way and given themselves space to nuke you into oblivion or they sidestepped and are carving your backside up like it's turkey day.

Edited, May 19th 2012 6:49pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 May 19 2012 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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So far I find the Armory kinda bleh, there's a lot of abilities that are restricted to one class which could be useful for others. There's only a few key abilities which are useful at all. I can't wrap my head around what exactly CNJ or THM are supposed to do with TP, all I can think of is using it for shield bash which has a 1 minute timer.
#24 May 19 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Susanoh wrote:
The main reasons I'm not a fan of the armoury system in this game is because it forces those who want to play their class of choice to level other classes regardless of whether they have any interest in those classes or not, and it makes each class less unique. I'd rather see each class be given more versatile skills unique to that class than to have them simply ripping abilities from other classes. For example, if gladiator and marauder are both supposed to viable "tank" classes, give them both unique taunts and damage mitigation skills rather than just allowing them to equip each others' skills. This let's people play as many or as few classes they want without being penalized on the classes they do play, and it prevents classes from being too similar to each other.


Well i don't know if you ever played Final Fantasy Tactics for the PS1, but what we have now is closely connected to that game. And is in fact very FF like, as hard as you may think it's not. In any FF title with a job system it is made so that depending on a battle you need specific job's classes, and it disregards weather you like playing it or not. The content will always be oriented to favor different classes depending on what you are doing. An that is in a way what FF is really about, about people needing to bend to the changing situation rather then have content welcoming everyone with open arms.

For many years i played FFXI, and i can honestly say 1/2 that time i played job's i never really liked. But that is was required, as such i job changed and made the most out of it. I loved monk, but in 90% of the end game that fell short, so instead of throwing a fit i looked for fun things in the job's i didn't like and enjoined them.

What i am gathering here is that people want more of a WoW feel were one dps,tank,heals job can do the job as well as the next dps,tank,heals. Making every job/class optimal for nearly all content. This is also a good system as it never leaves you hanging if you are not playing the flavor of the month. However this simplify's the game to much for some. True that the FF system, as is, dilutes the job definition in a way, it allows a person to define the class/job as they see fit.


FFT was the first game in the series I played, so I see where you are coming from when it comes to cross class abilities, but I personally think it works better in single player than it does in multiplayer. Mainly because in a single player game, there are no social norms and no pressure to play what is optimal. You're free to play through the game at your pace, leveling up as you go and choosing whether to spend any time purely leveling or just push forward. Maybe you spend the time gaining "optimal" skills for all your characters, maybe you level up your characters so you can create whatever crazy job combos pop into your head that you enjoy using, or maybe you don't level at all to make things more challenging. And you can do any of that, because you're the master of your own world and you control every single character in terms of customization and play style. In multiplayer though, we see people with various skills and time restrictions, all who prefer different classes and playstyles and who tend to have expectations of how they and those who play with them are performing. Much more attention should be payed to how the classes are balanced and what is involved in character progression in this type of environment IMO.

I don't think that making each class more unique would necessarily have the downsides that you've brought up. Making classes more unique on their own doesn't necessarily mean every class would be optimal for every situation. I mean, in my own ideal world every class would be at least viable for most content without too many situations where certain classes are so much worse than others that they're outcast. I don't view your story about your preferred class "falling short" 90% of the time as a good one myself, but if that's something you want to have to overcome it wouldn't be difficult to make some classes useless even without the armoury system. In fact, by not allowing classes access to others' potentially great abilities, it might actually be easier. =P

As for simplifying classes, I agree that it does in one way. Being allowed to equip abilities from other classes does potentially allow for a level of complexity that wouldn't be there without it. But then again, they could also add complexity by making each individual class more fleshed out on its own, and allowing you to choose between a wider selection of abilities from each and every class. Not only that, but if the abilities feel different enough from one class to the next, then performing your role playing one class may feel radically different than performing the exact same role on a different class. And of course, it would do this all while allowing people to play their own unique class without requiring them to level a different yet similar class that they may not be interested in. Instead of leveling one class and thinking "hmm, I guess I have to spend some time leveling this other class to get that ability for my main" they can choose whatever class suits them best to start up as a secondary.

I'm not really saying I think you're wrong here, btw, just noting why I'm not at all a fan of the armoury system and why it might possibly be a potential turn off for other players. I can see why some might like the ability to mix and match abilities from other classes, but it just doesn't have the effect I'm looking for in an online multiplayer game.
#25 May 20 2012 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
The problem with this mechanic (and the main beef the testers had with it) was that it was too slow. Even if the action processed instantly on releasing the button, you're still sitting there for 3 to 6 seconds charging up a move. The kicker with that system was that somehow SE managed to take the idea and make it worse by adding a mechanic that reset your power to 0 if you waited too long.

Imagine charging an ability for 6 seconds and timing your release perfectly, but because of server side delay you get credited with overcharging the ability and it processes shortly after the power bar resets to 0. You waited all that time and ended up being less effective than you would if you were just spamming the ability in the first place.

I like your idea about the buffs, but I'd rather see that in the form of short duration buffs that come from short cooldown abilities and reactive abilities. Something like an ability that absorbs a certain amount of incoming damage and reflects it(for shield), adds it to your next attack(for dps) or increases the magic attack of your next spell(caster) if you time it correctly. Low cooldown abilities that buff ranged accuracy by sacrificing attack power or vice versa. An ability that lowers the accuracy of your next attack but adds a debuff based on the damage of the attack. The more powerful the attack, the more accuracy is reduced but the longer the duration of the debuff.

Things like this add dimension to the combat system, they add some depth to party play and just make the game feel more interactive. I am thoroughly feeling TERA right now for that same reason. The combat is like a mix of MMO and FPS. You don't just stand there trading blows until one of you fall, you need to move and react to things mobs or other players are doing and you need to plan your movement and actions. If you spam abilities you usually end up firing off that fluid 5 second combo in the wrong direction; meanwhile your opponent has either dodged completely, jumped out of the way and given themselves space to nuke you into oblivion or they sidestepped and are carving your backside up like it's turkey day.

Edited, May 19th 2012 6:49pm by FilthMcNasty

Yeah I just remembered that reset thing. Honestly I just want to see some forms of precision control upon activation. Tera achieves that through free targeting. Which is why it's so fun playing a mage. While I like gear being important. I want some way to modify the outcome via timing.
#26 May 20 2012 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Yeah I just remembered that reset thing. Honestly I just want to see some forms of precision control upon activation. Tera achieves that through free targeting. Which is why it's so fun playing a mage. While I like gear being important. I want some way to modify the outcome via timing.


I'd be a lot more excited about 2.0 if I thought it would be anything more than just a revamped UI, some added story quests and a more efficient graphics engine. I didn't bother with the welcome back campaign because I really want to give this game another chance at some point. I just don't think that point will come before 2.0 if at all.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#27 May 20 2012 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
Just to clear the air about something, there are only 2 abilities above 30 that you can equip cross class. Sacred Prism (34), and Fira (34), from Con and Thm respectively.

Considering that, there should be no need to level any class above 30 to use with another class.


Nope. Chameleon, Archer level 42. Reduces hate. the cross-class ability is a god-send for Black Mages.
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#28 May 20 2012 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Nope. Chameleon, Archer level 42. Reduces hate. the cross-class ability is a god-send for Black Mages.


Well, you know, Black Mages who get sick of standing in one place in passive mode all the time
may be quite thankful for having to run around like a ranger once in a while.. ^u^
#29 May 20 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Yeah I just remembered that reset thing. Honestly I just want to see some forms of precision control upon activation. Tera achieves that through free targeting. Which is why it's so fun playing a mage. While I like gear being important. I want some way to modify the outcome via timing.


I'd be a lot more excited about 2.0 if I thought it would be anything more than just a revamped UI, some added story quests and a more efficient graphics engine. I didn't bother with the welcome back campaign because I really want to give this game another chance at some point. I just don't think that point will come before 2.0 if at all.


I'm not sure what would make me excited about 2.0. I was happy with FFXI's awfully slow battle mechanics, so I don't think combat system is an issue for me. I'm definitely looking forward to new maps. I don't know anything about the current endgame, but I want to see drastic changes to the journey from 1 to 50, because I had no fun at all levelling to 31 and didn't have the will to go on. At least in 2.0 it won't be all in the same **** zone. The storyline content seems really meagre. In FFXI there were around 3-4 main storyline missions every 10 levels, right. This time it's 1 or 2, and so far they've all been completely trivial. I wish they'd add more. There aren't that many quests that aren't leves it seems... and leves are really awful. I can't believe they had the gall to brag about them in the beginning. We get a huge wall of text explaining the leve but every one just boils down to a few monsters being spawned in random places. Lazy, lazy design.

If 2.0 makes feels like a game that's had real work gone into it I will play it. How many people did they say are working on it? 100? 200?
#30 May 21 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
Just to clear the air about something, there are only 2 abilities above 30 that you can equip cross class. Sacred Prism (34), and Fira (34), from Con and Thm respectively.

Considering that, there should be no need to level any class above 30 to use with another class.


Nope. Chameleon, Archer level 42. Reduces hate. the cross-class ability is a god-send for Black Mages.


bah, should have figured I missed one. I would think that is more of an issue of SE putting ability level too high, but yeah, you got me on that.

From the sound of it, most of the problems with the armory system isn't how it is implemented, but rather the way it is used. I can't see how SE can "fix" this, as it is how people use it.
#31 May 21 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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The simple solution to all of this is to create unique combination skills that diverse Job/Class set ups.

A Battle Regiment with Chrono-Trigger like combination attacks could facilitate this function, though all such systems would be subject to players gaming the system. But ultimately it would give the Developers a focus to balance performance in groups around.

Say a Dragoon's DPS dropping in certain fights, make their combination skills stronger for those battles to compensate without having to sit there and revamp or overcompensate.

Honestly, combination skills could do wonders for the sense of teamwork in this game, which is a bit lacking right now aside from placement coordination - and would prevent issues that were raised with the SkillChain/Burst system that ultimately got phased out in FFXI.
#32 May 21 2012 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
The simple solution to all of this is to create unique combination skills that diverse Job/Class set ups.

A Battle Regiment with Chrono-Trigger like combination attacks could facilitate this function, though all such systems would be subject to players gaming the system. But ultimately it would give the Developers a focus to balance performance in groups around.

Say a Dragoon's DPS dropping in certain fights, make their combination skills stronger for those battles to compensate without having to sit there and revamp or overcompensate.

Honestly, combination skills could do wonders for the sense of teamwork in this game, which is a bit lacking right now aside from placement coordination - and would prevent issues that were raised with the SkillChain/Burst system that ultimately got phased out in FFXI.


This right here sounds awesome. You even see something like it in the opening cutscene too. It's absence makes that opening cutscene even further from how the game actually plays.

The devs can just go crazy with combos at that point making some not-so-viable jobs for certain fights actually useful.
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#33 May 21 2012 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
From the sound of it, most of the problems with the armory system isn't how it is implemented, but rather the way it is used. I can't see how SE can "fix" this, as it is how people use it.


The reasons I dislike the armoury system would be difficult to fix because they way it's implemented suggests that people use it the way they do. If there are useful abilities for your class that must be taken from another class, you have to either level that other class, whether you wanted to play it or not, or just go without. Also, every useful ability that another class takes and uses for itself is one more ability that makes the class less unique. For example, the poster you replied to said that the hate shedding archer ability was great for black mages. If there were no armoury system, and instead black mages were given their own unique ability to aid them in hate management or survival, then black mages would feel more unique as a class since they have their own abilities to aid their survival instead of the same stuff you use on archer, and it'd also allow black mages who weren't a big fan of archer to use this ability without having to level a class they might not want to play.
#34 May 22 2012 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Susanoh wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
From the sound of it, most of the problems with the armory system isn't how it is implemented, but rather the way it is used. I can't see how SE can "fix" this, as it is how people use it.


The reasons I dislike the armoury system would be difficult to fix because they way it's implemented suggests that people use it the way they do. If there are useful abilities for your class that must be taken from another class, you have to either level that other class, whether you wanted to play it or not, or just go without. Also, every useful ability that another class takes and uses for itself is one more ability that makes the class less unique. For example, the poster you replied to said that the hate shedding archer ability was great for black mages. If there were no armoury system, and instead black mages were given their own unique ability to aid them in hate management or survival, then black mages would feel more unique as a class since they have their own abilities to aid their survival instead of the same stuff you use on archer, and it'd also allow black mages who weren't a big fan of archer to use this ability without having to level a class they might not want to play.


From the sound of it, your issue isn't that it is broken, just that you don't want to level another class that you don't like to benefit from it.

The ability to have/use multiple classes has been a theme in Final Fantasy since 3. And has been in some form or another in every game and is a basic concept of the series and has always set it apart from other Fantasy titles. Going with a static skill set would actually break the game in that it would be moving away from a design that they have embraced for years.

As for uniqueness, the limit of 5 abilities, and the fact that you can only chain abilities for your class/job makes it so that no two classes can operate the same. If you have any doubts of that, you should see the difference it War and Pld tanking. There are VERY few things that Pld can tank better than a War now, and even then it requires a very skilled Pld to out tank a War.

As for Healing, you try main healing with anything other than a Whm and you will have a party wipe in most situations.

Try fighting multiple Peistes without a Lnc/Drg, your whm will be working over-time to keep people alive.

Try doing the Moogle Fight without Archers, or Ifrit w/o a Blm.

All of these things can be done, (except the Whm bit really), but, the difference in Classes is very significant.

The uniqueness of classes is still there and very strong. The shared abilities only augment the classes/jobs, they don't turn pugilists into archers, or Bards into White Mages, or anything remotely close to that.

With that being said, I am not saying "Suck it up". I am saying that like it, or dislike it, this design, while highly corrected from it's original implementation (which did destroy uniqueness), is a functional implementation of cross classing that is unique to this game (not another FFXI clone), but still holds true to the Final Fantasy Theme.
#35 May 22 2012 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
The simple solution to all of this is to create unique combination skills that diverse Job/Class set ups.

A Battle Regiment with Chrono-Trigger like combination attacks could facilitate this function, though all such systems would be subject to players gaming the system. But ultimately it would give the Developers a focus to balance performance in groups around.

Say a Dragoon's DPS dropping in certain fights, make their combination skills stronger for those battles to compensate without having to sit there and revamp or overcompensate.

Honestly, combination skills could do wonders for the sense of teamwork in this game, which is a bit lacking right now aside from placement coordination - and would prevent issues that were raised with the SkillChain/Burst system that ultimately got phased out in FFXI.


Yoshi already said that something like this was in the Works, and that Battle Regimen was only disabled until they could "Fix" it with the new system. I am sure the reason we haven't heard anything about this is that, yes exploits or over-powering would definitely be a problem with a few Classes/Jobs (War and Drg being the big two).

But to time out 6 abilities from 3 people so that each one ends their third ability to a skill-chain including a mage for the burst... I can't wait to see how they implement it...

Currently skill chains and team-work are good for breaking things...
As for now, the Manticore is about the only thing that people still go for the break on. In the beginning people tried to break ifrit's horns, however, now they just zerg blast him with Thm/Blms... The attempts at horn breaking was fun though^^.
#36 May 22 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
From the sound of it, your issue isn't that it is broken, just that you don't want to level another class that you don't like to benefit from it.

The ability to have/use multiple classes has been a theme in Final Fantasy since 3. And has been in some form or another in every game and is a basic concept of the series and has always set it apart from other Fantasy titles. Going with a static skill set would actually break the game in that it would be moving away from a design that they have embraced for years.


You're right, I'm not saying the armoury system is "broken," just undesirable to me and possibly others.

Regardless, alternatives to armoury don't necessarily have to involve 100% static skill sets, and I'd hardly say that going with something else would be "game breaking," especially if it's based on what past FF titles have been like. The FF series has plenty of variation in its progression mechanics and certainly not every one of those games involves switching your current class to another to gain abilities to use on your first. FFIV, FFVI, FFVII, even FFI (how's that for "series roots" =P) for example involve nothing of the sort. Also worth noting is that in all of the offline FF games I've played (which is every main series one but 3 and some of the others like Tactics, CC, etc.) that did use cross class abilities, they were always available as a means of side progression while you progressed through the game, rather than a mechanic that forces you to start over and reset your stats to level 1.

Quote:
As for uniqueness, the limit of 5 abilities, and the fact that you can only chain abilities for your class/job makes it so that no two classes can operate the same. If you have any doubts of that, you should see the difference it War and Pld tanking. There are VERY few things that Pld can tank better than a War now, and even then it requires a very skilled Pld to out tank a War.

As for Healing, you try main healing with anything other than a Whm and you will have a party wipe in most situations.

Try fighting multiple Peistes without a Lnc/Drg, your whm will be working over-time to keep people alive.

Try doing the Moogle Fight without Archers, or Ifrit w/o a Blm.

All of these things can be done, (except the Whm bit really), but, the difference in Classes is very significant.

The uniqueness of classes is still there and very strong. The shared abilities only augment the classes/jobs, they don't turn pugilists into archers, or Bards into White Mages, or anything remotely close to that.

With that being said, I am not saying "Suck it up". I am saying that like it, or dislike it, this design, while highly corrected from it's original implementation (which did destroy uniqueness), is a functional implementation of cross classing that is unique to this game (not another FFXI clone), but still holds true to the Final Fantasy Theme.


A well reasoned argument, and I won't disagree that unique classes can exist with bits of other classes sprinkled in. I would find side progression within a class far more desirable myself because it would not only further class uniqueness, but also completely eliminate the need for everyone to level up classes they may or may not want to play in order to gain abilities for their class. I'm aware this is mainly a difference of opinion.

Edited, May 22nd 2012 4:22pm by Susanoh
#37 May 22 2012 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Susanoh wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
From the sound of it, your issue isn't that it is broken, just that you don't want to level another class that you don't like to benefit from it.

The ability to have/use multiple classes has been a theme in Final Fantasy since 3. And has been in some form or another in every game and is a basic concept of the series and has always set it apart from other Fantasy titles. Going with a static skill set would actually break the game in that it would be moving away from a design that they have embraced for years.


You're right, I'm not saying the armoury system is "broken," just undesirable to me and possibly others.

Regardless, alternatives to armoury don't necessarily have to involve 100% static skill sets, and I'd hardly say that going with something else would be "game breaking," especially if it's based on what past FF titles have been like. The FF series has plenty of variation in its progression mechanics and certainly not every one of those games involves switching your current class to another to gain abilities to use on your first. FFIV, FFVI, FFVII, even FFI (how's that for "series roots" =P) for example involve nothing of the sort. Also worth noting is that in all of the offline FF games I've played (which is every main series one but 3 and some of the others like Tactics, CC, etc.) that did use cross class abilities, they were always available as a means of side progression while you progressed through the game, rather than a mechanic that forces you to start over and reset your stats to level 1.

Quote:
As for uniqueness, the limit of 5 abilities, and the fact that you can only chain abilities for your class/job makes it so that no two classes can operate the same. If you have any doubts of that, you should see the difference it War and Pld tanking. There are VERY few things that Pld can tank better than a War now, and even then it requires a very skilled Pld to out tank a War.

As for Healing, you try main healing with anything other than a Whm and you will have a party wipe in most situations.

Try fighting multiple Peistes without a Lnc/Drg, your whm will be working over-time to keep people alive.

Try doing the Moogle Fight without Archers, or Ifrit w/o a Blm.

All of these things can be done, (except the Whm bit really), but, the difference in Classes is very significant.

The uniqueness of classes is still there and very strong. The shared abilities only augment the classes/jobs, they don't turn pugilists into archers, or Bards into White Mages, or anything remotely close to that.

With that being said, I am not saying "Suck it up". I am saying that like it, or dislike it, this design, while highly corrected from it's original implementation (which did destroy uniqueness), is a functional implementation of cross classing that is unique to this game (not another FFXI clone), but still holds true to the Final Fantasy Theme.


A well reasoned argument, and I won't disagree that unique classes can exist with bits of other classes sprinkled in. I would find side progression within a class far more desirable myself because it would not only further class uniqueness, but also completely eliminate the need for everyone to level up classes they may or may not want to play in order to gain abilities for their class. I'm aware this is mainly a difference of opinion.

Edited, May 22nd 2012 4:22pm by Susanoh



Let me get this straight, you want a system where a job/class at cap is independent from the other classes. Meaning that a WAR can only use MRD skills and nothing cross class? Well be that as it may, you would still need to level up more then 1 job/class to cap do to the fact that for the most part FF content is very job/class selective. And while in battle A you can bring in a given set up of classes/jobs, it does not mean that in battle B that same set up would work. So even if you didn't have to have a skill borrowed, for some fight's you would need to swap classes/jobs to be useful. And yes while it would be simple to have every job/class be optimal for every fight, it would be a bigger hit to the "identity" of the classes/jobs then what we have now.
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#38 May 22 2012 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Let me get this straight, you want a system where a job/class at cap is independent from the other classes. Meaning that a WAR can only use MRD skills and nothing cross class? Well be that as it may, you would still need to level up more then 1 job/class to cap do to the fact that for the most part FF content is very job/class selective. And while in battle A you can bring in a given set up of classes/jobs, it does not mean that in battle B that same set up would work. So even if you didn't have to have a skill borrowed, for some fight's you would need to swap classes/jobs to be useful. And yes while it would be simple to have every job/class be optimal for every fight, it would be a bigger hit to the "identity" of the classes/jobs then what we have now.


To your first question, that's what I'd prefer personally, yes. And even if people were encouraged to level up more classes to actually use those classes, I wouldn't consider that a bad thing. I'd rather the mentality be "I'm going to level x and y because I enjoy playing both jobs, or I can use them in a variety of situations" rather than "I'm going to level x and z because x is the job I want to play, and the only way I can get the useful abilities I want for x is if I also level up z."

Also, I don't mind if every class isn't optimal for every fight, but I would like to see all classes at least viable in most situations. If there's a class you love but feel discouraged to play a whopping 90% of the time as you mentioned an earlier post about FFXI, then IMO either the class or the content could use a bit of revamping.

Edited, May 22nd 2012 8:29pm by Susanoh
#39 May 22 2012 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Are people so averse to having a FF MMO where you can only have one main class per character? It's probably too late to see changes to this system since they're content enough with it that they're adding on to and expanding it, but I personally don't like how you can just change to any job or class anytime.I know it's great to be able to use the same spells, but why not separate them? Many games give different classes the same or similar abilities.

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#40 May 23 2012 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Susanoh wrote:
Also, I don't mind if every class isn't optimal for every fight, but I would like to see all classes at least viable in most situations. If there's a class you love but feel discouraged to play a whopping 90% of the time as you mentioned an earlier post about FFXI, then IMO either the class or the content could use a bit of revamping.


Well truth be told, "as is" currently every class is viable for most situations. From a design stand point at least, the issue pops up with the players that want optimal not only viable. There is enough videos around showing that you can use any class/job in most (not all) situations and still take the win. Pick Up Groups lean to the optimal as you have no idea how good other are. But if you run with a LS and you have proven that on job X you can outperform job Z, you should have the freedom to play X and not be forced in to Z.

As for the first part where WAR can only use MRD skills, that is with in the realm of possibility. Though unlikely as the model of the game is oriented to the Class + Class = Job, and in the future potentially Job + Job = ???? (though unlikely)

@FilthMcNasty: Right now if i were to ask you to pick 1 from the 7 classes/jobs, and become that permanently.. and loos all other class/jobs would you be able to do it, with out regret? I know i can't. The main reason i love FF is the versatility, remove that and you have a game with no identity, to set it aside from the pack.

Edited, May 23rd 2012 12:04pm by TwiddleDee
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#41 May 23 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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It is not always the fault of the class system(Tho i always said it would eventually fail as it was before, they changed it and is a tab better) The fault lies on whoever is on charge of content development, you can have the best class balance out of every single MMO in history, but if the content development team, decides to "Hey lets give this boss a constant aoe that does 50k dmg to every player around the boss in a 10-15yrd radius" Guess what ? people are gonna stack range and melee is gonna sit on the shelves for that fight :/
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#42 May 23 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Susanoh wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
From the sound of it, most of the problems with the armory system isn't how it is implemented, but rather the way it is used. I can't see how SE can "fix" this, as it is how people use it.


The reasons I dislike the armoury system would be difficult to fix because they way it's implemented suggests that people use it the way they do. If there are useful abilities for your class that must be taken from another class, you have to either level that other class, whether you wanted to play it or not, or just go without. Also, every useful ability that another class takes and uses for itself is one more ability that makes the class less unique. For example, the poster you replied to said that the hate shedding archer ability was great for black mages. If there were no armoury system, and instead black mages were given their own unique ability to aid them in hate management or survival, then black mages would feel more unique as a class since they have their own abilities to aid their survival instead of the same stuff you use on archer, and it'd also allow black mages who weren't a big fan of archer to use this ability without having to level a class they might not want to play.


See they could have fixed this by making XIV abilities be learned like tactics abilities. So while you would have to play archer to learn a certain skill - they could have made it so you learn abilities through equipping weapons for a certain amount of exp. The abilities themselves could be on several different weapons. If you wanted to learn camouflage at a lower level, then the weapon you learned it from might be super rare.

If the issue of stats on the weapon was an issue, then it could have even be modified to make it "soulstones" or something you equipped on an appropriate weapon to learn the ability.

Then they could have made those soulstones available through quests, drops from NMs etc. If they really wanted to keep some super special defining abilities to people who played a lot of the class, they could lock the soulstones behind a quest only available to people with a certain number of abilities from that class or at a certain level of that class.

Some soulstones could be tradeable, especially lower leveled ones... some buyable from npcs etc. Heck there is no reason why they couldn't have made it so that while abilities were "attuned" to certain classes, that you could "be" whatever class you want to be while using a weapon that can equip the soulstone. So if you were a thm/blm who wanted phalanx and were dead set on not playing war/gla you could wear a sword (yeah you would be gimped, but your choice) and keep earning blm exp while learning this gla attuned ability.

I just feel like they failed to be smart and creative about the system, but that doesn't mean that the idea of a system with tons of crossclassed abilities is fatally flawed.
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#43 May 23 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Are people so averse to having a FF MMO where you can only have one main class per character? It's probably too late to see changes to this system since they're content enough with it that they're adding on to and expanding it, but I personally don't like how you can just change to any job or class anytime.I know it's great to be able to use the same spells, but why not separate them? Many games give different classes the same or similar abilities.


That seems too limiting and necessitates alt-ing, which I'm not a fan of. FFXI system was fine.
#44 May 23 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:

See they could have fixed this by making XIV abilities be learned like tactics abilities. So while you would have to play archer to learn a certain skill - they could have made it so you learn abilities through equipping weapons for a certain amount of exp. The abilities themselves could be on several different weapons. If you wanted to learn camouflage at a lower level, then the weapon you learned it from might be super rare.

If the issue of stats on the weapon was an issue, then it could have even be modified to make it "soulstones" or something you equipped on an appropriate weapon to learn the ability.

Then they could have made those soulstones available through quests, drops from NMs etc. If they really wanted to keep some super special defining abilities to people who played a lot of the class, they could lock the soulstones behind a quest only available to people with a certain number of abilities from that class or at a certain level of that class.

Some soulstones could be tradeable, especially lower leveled ones... some buyable from npcs etc. Heck there is no reason why they couldn't have made it so that while abilities were "attuned" to certain classes, that you could "be" whatever class you want to be while using a weapon that can equip the soulstone. So if you were a thm/blm who wanted phalanx and were dead set on not playing war/gla you could wear a sword (yeah you would be gimped, but your choice) and keep earning blm exp while learning this gla attuned ability.

I just feel like they failed to be smart and creative about the system, but that doesn't mean that the idea of a system with tons of crossclassed abilities is fatally flawed.


Like the skill/spell system in Final Fantasy IX(9)?

In Final Fantasy IX, abilities are learned from equipped weapons and armor, with one exception. (Quina, as a blue mage, can also learn abilities by eating enemies.) There are two different types of abilities - action abilities and support abilities. Action abilities can be used when the ability-teaching weapon or armor is equipped, and after the ability has been completely learned. Support abilities are similar, except they must be equipped with magic stones (from the ability section of the menu) if they are to be used when the appropriate item is no longer equipped. Each character has a certain number of magic stones, and this number increases as the character's level does. You can equip each character with as many abilities as the number of stones available will allow.

Most weapons and armor will teach abilities, though not all characters can learn all the abilities available from each piece of equipment. If the character in question cannot learn a particular ability, it will appear in gray, while those that can be learned will be white. Ability points (AP) gained through battle go toward the learning of an ability in the same way that experience points gained in battle contribute to a character's progress toward the next level. After an ability has acquired all the AP required, its gauge will be full and marked with stars. When a character has fully learned all the abilities available from the equipped item, another item should be equipped which will teach new abilities. Remember that to continue using the support abilities from the item being removed, you must equip them in the ability menu. The action abilities are yours to use once they are learned, provided you have the required MP to use them. To see what abilities a character has learned, press the X button while in the status menu. This will show the abilities learned or being learned, and which ones are currently equipped.


I could live with that... Would make for am interesting game that's for sure. Equip item X, get skill/ability/spell Y, if you want to have it permanently you soul bind the item to you self. Then brake it like we do for materia and you can choose materia or the skill it offers.




Edited, May 23rd 2012 3:35pm by TwiddleDee
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#45 May 23 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't be surprised if they did introduce abilities via specific quest lines/events/achievements (which I am 99% positive Yoshi hinted at that)/Items/Equipment. The system is now in place to allow a more dynamic design like that.

They also have the ability, and God I hope they add it at some point, Classless abilities that can be used by anyone no matter their class or job.

Abilities like Scavenge, or Runic, scan or Guard would be nice to have for any class/job. And while coming up with abilities that people wouldn't demand be in, but are still good enough to get is a very difficult concept. If the ability is too useful, then EVERYONE has to have it. If it's not useful enough, WHY DID THEY BOTHER PUTTING IT IN.

Either way, difficult balancing point.
#46 May 23 2012 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I"m just gonna say, they should have left Guild Marks in the game and adapted them into objectives for the guild so that they would teach you their techniques if you didn't want to level the class. Sure one could say that why not just PL but if a person doesn't want to PL and just want to obtain the skill then why can't we have it where one obtains 3k Gladiator Guildmarks by doing leves for them and then exchange those 3k to obtain Sentinel rather then having to take the time to lv and obtain it.

The issue with the current level system is yes it forces players to level things they would rather not level just so they can obtain abilities, then what happens when the lv cap is lifted and their are lv 50+ abilities that can be used on other classes. I think it would just be best if we could reintroduce Guild Marks and turn it into an alternative to obtaining abilities. that can be cross classed.
#47 May 23 2012 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Are people so averse to having a FF MMO where you can only have one main class per character? It's probably too late to see changes to this system since they're content enough with it that they're adding on to and expanding it, but I personally don't like how you can just change to any job or class anytime.I know it's great to be able to use the same spells, but why not separate them? Many games give different classes the same or similar abilities.


That seems too limiting and necessitates alt-ing, which I'm not a fan of. FFXI system was fine.


That's the thing though, it doesn't necessitate anything. The only thing limiting about it is the freedom to limit how many jobs you want to play. I think we call it choice.

FFXI makes you buy a three course meal just to get ice cream. If you try to order just ice cream, you get beet root flavored ice cream. Other games allow you to order what you want, but you only get one meal at a time.
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#48 May 24 2012 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I honestly don't see your objection to be able to change classes in your house or wherever. It makes no impact on game mechanics other than not forcing players who want to play a different class to create a new character.
#49 May 24 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
I honestly don't see your objection to be able to change classes in your house or wherever. It makes no impact on game mechanics other than not forcing players who want to play a different class to create a new character.


You say forced, but it's a matter of choice. If you want to play a different class in most MMOs, you roll another character. No one is forcing you to do it.

My issue was with the ability to use subjobs or borrowing abilities from other jobs. The community dictates which combinations are valid, which jobs you should have ready to go for events and what combination you should be using for any given encounter. If you wanted to participate then you were 'forced' to level jobs you didn't want to. Some people sacrificed themselves for the greater good by playing a job they didn't enjoy. Kinda defeats the purpose if you ask me. It was bad enough that the drop rates were ****, but having more players with jobs leveled that can use the same gear makes it even harder to get.

Deciding to roll a class is optional. You aren't really forced to level every subjob you didn't like but you'd likely be sitting out or the last to get an invite. Personally, I'd rather be locked into a class that I selected because I enjoy playing. If anything is forced, it's leveling all the 'necessary' subs for events.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#50 May 24 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
[quote=Dizmo]My issue was with the ability to use subjobs or borrowing abilities from other jobs. The community dictates which combinations are valid, which jobs you should have ready to go for events and what combination you should be using for any given encounter. If you wanted to participate then you were 'forced' to level jobs you didn't want to. Some people sacrificed themselves for the greater good by playing a job they didn't enjoy. Kinda defeats the purpose if you ask me. It was bad enough that the drop rates were sh*t, but having more players with jobs leveled that can use the same gear makes it even harder to get.


This one of the bigger reasons I stopped playing FFXI. I was primarily a RDM, also liked playing BLM, and the combination I often used was RDM/BLM. I found that often times, people wanted me to be another subclass (e.g. WHM) than the ones I wanted. As an aside, one of my least favorite parts of RDM was that if you wanted to solo while waiting for a party, you were pretty screwed if you didn't have NIN sub. I *hated* NIN, and only started to level it because I absolutely had to. Of course, to level NIN well, you need to level *other* subjobs and so on and so on. That's to say nothing about how a lot of quest parties wanted their RDM to be NIN sub.

I realize a lot of people love this about FF, but you shouldn't be forced to level a slew of other jobs just because the community has dictated that certain subs are "best" for a job.

Doing things you don't want to do is part of any game, but you shouldn't be spending half your time doing it. That's not fun.

Edited, May 24th 2012 5:05pm by AstroDrom
#51 May 25 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
See they could have fixed this by making XIV abilities be learned like tactics abilities. So while you would have to play archer to learn a certain skill - they could have made it so you learn abilities through equipping weapons for a certain amount of exp. The abilities themselves could be on several different weapons. If you wanted to learn camouflage at a lower level, then the weapon you learned it from might be super rare.

If the issue of stats on the weapon was an issue, then it could have even be modified to make it "soulstones" or something you equipped on an appropriate weapon to learn the ability.

Then they could have made those soulstones available through quests, drops from NMs etc. If they really wanted to keep some super special defining abilities to people who played a lot of the class, they could lock the soulstones behind a quest only available to people with a certain number of abilities from that class or at a certain level of that class.

Some soulstones could be tradeable, especially lower leveled ones... some buyable from npcs etc. Heck there is no reason why they couldn't have made it so that while abilities were "attuned" to certain classes, that you could "be" whatever class you want to be while using a weapon that can equip the soulstone. So if you were a thm/blm who wanted phalanx and were dead set on not playing war/gla you could wear a sword (yeah you would be gimped, but your choice) and keep earning blm exp while learning this gla attuned ability.

I just feel like they failed to be smart and creative about the system, but that doesn't mean that the idea of a system with tons of crossclassed abilities is fatally flawed.


Learning skills through an item based system would add so much more vitality & meaning to the crafting system, it's not even funny. One only need to look at XI to see that as time progresses in a stat only gear system. Many crafts goe dead or unpopular becoming hard to find on the AH. Having an item/skill system may lead to some players who don't want to craft feel obligated to. But they don't have to, that's when a friend, stranger, company, or LS could help. It could lead to a stronger comradery.

The framework for a soulstone type thing is there in a way with jobstones in place. A mix of soulstone/item skill progression would further set this game apart from other mmos but also be familiar to a FF fan.

For the rare or unique skills I never liked the main factors being auto learn at preset level or buy it forward thru a market. This is a fantasy rpg. I don't think a master walks into wal-mart, purchases a spell or what not. Should become instantly more powerful. They also don't just fight a million crabs and be like" So this is the spell meteor?"

There is something about the need to quest powers that makes progression feel more weighty & fulfilling. It just adds more long and short term goals to progression imo. This is why I cared more about my blue mage & summoner in XI over any other jobs. That's not to say the randomness(at times)in the process of learning blue spells wasn't tedious or not implemented well. All that could have been avoided by either making the process only require a monster die or thru an attunement process.

This system still wouldn't make the players who dislike leveling classes they don't enjoy happy though. The complaints would just shift from needing to level multiple classes to needing to level weapons. And the player bullying about needing certain skills would continue. There is only one solution to that and some players may not like it.

Solution: Remove cross classing from jobs. If some job has an OP skill, examine why it is OP. Give other jobs in the same roles a different method of achieving roughly that same effect, a new skill. Jobs will be for players who want focus & prefer not leveling multiple jobs/classes. There will be less requirements from groups expecting a broad range of skills. Jobs are OP in one unique role and weak alone. They rely on the party. If a job is not getting invites. SE examines why thru feedback & adjust it slightly until that job is wanted.

Classes are the jack of all trades, master of none. But they offer flexibility for players who want to customize their character to great lengths. They know that leveling multiple classes is in their near future.

In doing this classes & jobs become very distinct from one another & less redundant. To the player who gets ***** because they want to be a master of the bow & arrow damage wise. Bard or Archer wouldn't fit this bill anymore. Well, I guess that's the cue for SE to add Ranger isn't it?
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