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Relic Weapon Revival (06/06/2012)Follow

#52 Jun 07 2012 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Ostia wrote:
And SE strikes yet again, with another "1998-2003" Mechanic in a 2012 MMORPG! Gosh Squeenix! When will you ever let me down <3


I was unaware in the window 2003 to 2012 the world had changed, and people no longer needed to invest time, effort, sweat, exe in order to get something. I didn't know the new trend was give everyone everything just for participating. These are the "relic" weapons, they are intended for only the truly hardy players who can commit to it. They are not required, there are alternatives, and no one will think less of you for not having one. I personally will not be getting one, but i am still happy that they were made so you cant obtain over night.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 11:36am by TwiddleDee


I too agree with some sort of effort or time commitment being involved in a reward for it to actually mean something. However, I'd say that's the extent of our agreement.

That relic weapons need to require any significant time investment is an antiquated notion carried over from XI, just because they share the same name as their counterparts. These are level 50 items, which despite the (moderately) impressive stats, are more roughly equatable to the quested AF weapons from XI in terms of actual game progression than they are to dyna relic weapons. They're a diversion for those with the time and resources to devote to them, and that's all well and good.

But the fact of the matter is that these are still lv50 items, which not even taking into account a potential lvcap increase somewhere in the course of the next year after 2.0, are ultimately doomed to look like templar/harlequin/buccaneer items in retrospect. It doesn't matter if they're job exclusive, it doesn't matter if there's a big to-do made over the acquisition of said items. It's three months after AF armor was introduced and already people are beginning to turn their noses up at players without double or triple melded armor.

And the problem here is more the carrot-on-a-stick attitude SE seems to be defaulting to than whether anyone actually thinks these weapons are worth the effort or not. It's understandable that the dev team are putting the majority of their effort into making 2.0 a success, so naturally they want timesink style activities to occupy the people still playing 15 hours a day. But what exactly is stopping this trend from continuing after 2.0 launches?

If they want to give us a timesink, it should at least be for a meaningful item that will still hold water for years to come in upcoming content. Even without any official declaration of a lvcap increase, it doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to realize what the future of XIV beyond 2.0 will eventually lead up to.
#53 Jun 07 2012 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
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So you don't want to have the best stuff the game you pay for offers? Not attacking you, just questioning.

You realize that the relic weapons don't actually exist, right? They're pixels on a screen. You're paying for an experience -- amusement, diversion, companionship, challenge. If the game started you at level 50 in every job with every item, would you think that you got what you paid for?

These weapons represent new activities, not new items. If the activity isn't fun for you, then that's a problem. If there aren't enough fun activities for you to do in the entire game to keep you active and amused, then that's a problem. But, the length or difficulty of any given activity or goal is not a problem -- you want more things to do, not less.



1. That relic weapon that doesn't actually exist, exists in the game that I pay to play, and by the way it IS the item that FF game players abroad (including myself) desire to obtain.
2. If that relic weapon is designed for only a select few of people who play this game and that is SE's desire for the game they designed, and they define WHO can have one by implementing time consuming content thus making this relic weapon only truly accessible to those who spend LARGE amounts of their time (which equates to life), then I'm at a lost for words for how SE does business.


I think the majority of people who cry out "I have a life, I can't spend that much dedicated time on this game" just wish that they didn't feel "punished" or considered less important to get to "experience" the best the game has to offer. And lets not kid ourselves, the "reward' for ALL the battles the game throws at a person is the GEAR. The fights that you participate in should be fun and challenging, but the only reason I fought it was to "advance" which equates to another level, which leads to better spells, abilities and GEAR.

Instead of making the item hard to obtain by making the requirements equate to "Time Consuming Repetitive Task Content", they should separate the Content from the Time part. After battle "X" and "Y" are done, the player must now wait "X" amount of hours before doing the next line of Content.

my 2 cents (although with inflation, that may only equate to 1/2 a cent.)
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#54 Jun 07 2012 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Hrist wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
Ostia wrote:
And SE strikes yet again, with another "1998-2003" Mechanic in a 2012 MMORPG! Gosh Squeenix! When will you ever let me down <3


I was unaware in the window 2003 to 2012 the world had changed, and people no longer needed to invest time, effort, sweat, exe in order to get something. I didn't know the new trend was give everyone everything just for participating. These are the "relic" weapons, they are intended for only the truly hardy players who can commit to it. They are not required, there are alternatives, and no one will think less of you for not having one. I personally will not be getting one, but i am still happy that they were made so you cant obtain over night.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 11:36am by TwiddleDee


I too agree with some sort of effort or time commitment being involved in a reward for it to actually mean something. However, I'd say that's the extent of our agreement.

That relic weapons need to require any significant time investment is an antiquated notion carried over from XI, just because they share the same name as their counterparts. These are level 50 items, which despite the (moderately) impressive stats, are more roughly equatable to the quested AF weapons from XI in terms of actual game progression than they are to dyna relic weapons. They're a diversion for those with the time and resources to devote to them, and that's all well and good.

But the fact of the matter is that these are still lv50 items, which not even taking into account a potential lvcap increase somewhere in the course of the next year after 2.0, are ultimately doomed to look like templar/harlequin/buccaneer items in retrospect. It doesn't matter if they're job exclusive, it doesn't matter if there's a big to-do made over the acquisition of said items. It's three months after AF armor was introduced and already people are beginning to turn their noses up at players without double or triple melded armor.

And the problem here is more the carrot-on-a-stick attitude SE seems to be defaulting to than whether anyone actually thinks these weapons are worth the effort or not. It's understandable that the dev team are putting the majority of their effort into making 2.0 a success, so naturally they want timesink style activities to occupy the people still playing 15 hours a day. But what exactly is stopping this trend from continuing after 2.0 launches?

If they want to give us a timesink, it should at least be for a meaningful item that will still hold water for years to come in upcoming content. Even without any official declaration of a lvcap increase, it doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to realize what the future of XIV beyond 2.0 will eventually lead up to.


Ok, let me shine a light on things you seem to have some major misinformation.

These are "relic weapons" no different then let's say "Shadowmourne" in WoW. They are intended to be a time sink for people to get that little bit extra after obtaining all else for a job/class. They are not intended for every one, or made to over shadow the rest of the weapons. They are simply the next step up.

Yes they are for level 50 cap, however if you were not aware it was stated that they will not be locked to 50. As level cap increases new quest's, will be available to increase the level of the weapons. So they remain a cut above regardless of cap. Well AF is good, but it's a stepping stone not the destination. While the "relic" weapons are the destination. If you want something to hold water for the future here it is. The relic's will be upgradable as the game progresses, they will add further content to your game play...

You must be new to MMO's, everything in any MMO, old, new, on the market, or soon to come is carrot-on-a-stick. That's the nature of the game. Do this, to get a reward. There it will always be the same, am not sure what you are expecting out of a game were everything is stretches so you pay the subscription.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 1:31pm by TwiddleDee
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#55 Jun 07 2012 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 9:45pm by PalidorCarbuncle
#56 Jun 07 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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I don't mind time. I don't mind skill/effort/random drops.

I do, do, do, mind having some RNG taken into account and forcing me to throw gil at a quest just to complete it.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 10:41am by Elionara
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#57 Jun 07 2012 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:


Ok, let me shine a light on things you seem to have some major misinformation.

These are "relic weapons" no different then let's say "Shadowmourne" in WoW. They are intended to be a time sink for people to get that little bit extra after obtaining all else for a job/class. They are not intended for every one, or made to over shadow the rest of the weapons. They are simply the next step up.

Yes they are for level 50 cap, however if you were not aware it was stated that they will not be locked to 50. As level cap increases new quest's, will be available to increase the level of the weapons. So they remain a cut above regardless of cap. Well AF is good, but it's a stepping stone not the destination. While the "relic" weapons are the destination. If you want something to hold water for the future here it is. The relic's will be upgradable as the game progresses, they will add further content to your game play...

You must be new to MMO's, everything in any MMO, old, new, on the market, or soon to come is carrot-on-a-stick. That's the nature of the game. Do this, to get a reward. There it will always be the same, am not sure what you are expecting out of a game were everything is stretches so you pay the subscription.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 1:31pm by TwiddleDee


I'd like to see where you found this information regarding relics scaling with the potential of future cap increases, or if this is just your assumption based on the fact that it already has occurred in XI. You seem to accept it as commonplace fact, and yet the number of times SE has actually even deigned to comment on cap increases is limited.

Other than that, I don't really see where you're shedding light on anything. I'm not by any means new to MMOs. Chances are, you're newer to them than I am. In fact, I find your veiled references to WoW rather insulting. You can call going to work every day a carrot-on-a-stick activity, and you can extend that analogy to just about anything you see fit if you're willing to twist the logic enough. People do things for rewards, whether they're monetary, item-related or the enjoyment of a certain event or activity. There's no doubt about that.

What you seem to be misunderstanding in my post is this: The extent of which they are making players go through hoops to attain something trivial has been increasing in relation to the amount of time they spend devoting to the production of 2.0. These activities are utterly meaningless timesinks unless they have some way of transcending a level cap. There's dozens upon dozens of timesinks for outdated gear. That's the nature of the game. But few are on the level of XI relics, and with good reason. People don't bother unless the reward is worth the time investment. In some cases, however, that reward is just feeling like they're pro.
#58 Jun 07 2012 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
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Hrist wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:


Ok, let me shine a light on things you seem to have some major misinformation.

These are "relic weapons" no different then let's say "Shadowmourne" in WoW. They are intended to be a time sink for people to get that little bit extra after obtaining all else for a job/class. They are not intended for every one, or made to over shadow the rest of the weapons. They are simply the next step up.

Yes they are for level 50 cap, however if you were not aware it was stated that they will not be locked to 50. As level cap increases new quest's, will be available to increase the level of the weapons. So they remain a cut above regardless of cap. Well AF is good, but it's a stepping stone not the destination. While the "relic" weapons are the destination. If you want something to hold water for the future here it is. The relic's will be upgradable as the game progresses, they will add further content to your game play...

You must be new to MMO's, everything in any MMO, old, new, on the market, or soon to come is carrot-on-a-stick. That's the nature of the game. Do this, to get a reward. There it will always be the same, am not sure what you are expecting out of a game were everything is stretches so you pay the subscription.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 1:31pm by TwiddleDee


I'd like to see where you found this information regarding relics scaling with the potential of future cap increases, or if this is just your assumption based on the fact that it already has occurred in XI. You seem to accept it as commonplace fact, and yet the number of times SE has actually even deigned to comment on cap increases is limited.

Other than that, I don't really see where you're shedding light on anything. I'm not by any means new to MMOs. Chances are, you're newer to them than I am. In fact, I find your veiled references to WoW rather insulting. You can call going to work every day a carrot-on-a-stick activity, and you can extend that analogy to just about anything you see fit if you're willing to twist the logic enough. People do things for rewards, whether they're monetary, item-related or the enjoyment of a certain event or activity. There's no doubt about that.

What you seem to be misunderstanding in my post is this: The extent of which they are making players go through hoops to attain something trivial has been increasing in relation to the amount of time they spend devoting to the production of 2.0. These activities are utterly meaningless timesinks unless they have some way of transcending a level cap. There's dozens upon dozens of timesinks for outdated gear. That's the nature of the game. But few are on the level of XI relics, and with good reason. People don't bother unless the reward is worth the time investment. In some cases, however, that reward is just feeling like they're pro.


I'll look for the official post when time allows, however it was stated by Yoshi-P they they would not let them become out dated trash. That is clear to anyone going after them. As for why i used a WoW example? Just because many people can relate to that game, as such the comparison doesn't go over there head. I can just as easily use a EQ, of UO reference but i doubt many will be able to relate. Let's be honest life is a carrot-on-a-stick, but only if you look at it as such. If you have fun and the positive out look, it's much more different. Lets see i jumped on the MMO train 12 years ago, and have played a good chunk of MMO's in that time frame.

Well the last paragraph is simply your opinion and view. The ratio "time in" vs "reward" is different for every one. A time sink for you, is more content for some one else. Something trivial for you, is an accomplishment for another. For some one who implies they have a lot of MMO experiences you seem to want the item handed to you on a silver platter after a 5min run. Would you be happy if you could get all 7 relic's in 7h? Or would you then start to back paddle "omg so easy the **** SE"?
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#59 Jun 07 2012 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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924 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
Hrist wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:


Ok, let me shine a light on things you seem to have some major misinformation.

These are "relic weapons" no different then let's say "Shadowmourne" in WoW. They are intended to be a time sink for people to get that little bit extra after obtaining all else for a job/class. They are not intended for every one, or made to over shadow the rest of the weapons. They are simply the next step up.

Yes they are for level 50 cap, however if you were not aware it was stated that they will not be locked to 50. As level cap increases new quest's, will be available to increase the level of the weapons. So they remain a cut above regardless of cap. Well AF is good, but it's a stepping stone not the destination. While the "relic" weapons are the destination. If you want something to hold water for the future here it is. The relic's will be upgradable as the game progresses, they will add further content to your game play...

You must be new to MMO's, everything in any MMO, old, new, on the market, or soon to come is carrot-on-a-stick. That's the nature of the game. Do this, to get a reward. There it will always be the same, am not sure what you are expecting out of a game were everything is stretches so you pay the subscription.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 1:31pm by TwiddleDee


I'd like to see where you found this information regarding relics scaling with the potential of future cap increases, or if this is just your assumption based on the fact that it already has occurred in XI. You seem to accept it as commonplace fact, and yet the number of times SE has actually even deigned to comment on cap increases is limited.

Other than that, I don't really see where you're shedding light on anything. I'm not by any means new to MMOs. Chances are, you're newer to them than I am. In fact, I find your veiled references to WoW rather insulting. You can call going to work every day a carrot-on-a-stick activity, and you can extend that analogy to just about anything you see fit if you're willing to twist the logic enough. People do things for rewards, whether they're monetary, item-related or the enjoyment of a certain event or activity. There's no doubt about that.

What you seem to be misunderstanding in my post is this: The extent of which they are making players go through hoops to attain something trivial has been increasing in relation to the amount of time they spend devoting to the production of 2.0. These activities are utterly meaningless timesinks unless they have some way of transcending a level cap. There's dozens upon dozens of timesinks for outdated gear. That's the nature of the game. But few are on the level of XI relics, and with good reason. People don't bother unless the reward is worth the time investment. In some cases, however, that reward is just feeling like they're pro.


I'll look for the official post when time allows, however it was stated by Yoshi-P they they would not let them become out dated trash. That is clear to anyone going after them. As for why i used a WoW example? Just because many people can relate to that game, as such the comparison doesn't go over there head. I can just as easily use a EQ, of UO reference but i doubt many will be able to relate. Let's be honest life is a carrot-on-a-stick, but only if you look at it as such. If you have fun and the positive out look, it's much more different. Lets see i jumped on the MMO train 12 years ago, and have played a good chunk of MMO's in that time frame.

Well the last paragraph is simply your opinion and view. The ratio "time in" vs "reward" is different for every one. A time sink for you, is more content for some one else. Something trivial for you, is an accomplishment for another. For some one who implies they have a lot of MMO experiences you seem to want the item handed to you on a silver platter after a 5min run. Would you be happy if you could get all 7 relic's in 7h? Or would you then start to back paddle "omg so easy the **** SE"?


I'd be happy if I didn't just waste 10 of my 16mil on 4 materia to blow both up.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#60 Jun 07 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
4 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:

I'll look for the official post when time allows, however it was stated by Yoshi-P they they would not let them become out dated trash. That is clear to anyone going after them. As for why i used a WoW example? Just because many people can relate to that game, as such the comparison doesn't go over there head. I can just as easily use a EQ, of UO reference but i doubt many will be able to relate. Let's be honest life is a carrot-on-a-stick, but only if you look at it as such. If you have fun and the positive out look, it's much more different. Lets see i jumped on the MMO train 12 years ago, and have played a good chunk of MMO's in that time frame.

Well the last paragraph is simply your opinion and view. The ratio "time in" vs "reward" is different for every one. A time sink for you, is more content for some one else. Something trivial for you, is an accomplishment for another. For some one who implies they have a lot of MMO experiences you seem to want the item handed to you on a silver platter after a 5min run. Would you be happy if you could get all 7 relic's in 7h? Or would you then start to back paddle "omg so easy the **** SE"?


I think you're getting the wrong impression. Just because I'm concerned that relic acquisition in its current state is to be what I perceive to be an undue timesink, doesn't mean that I don't approve of time and effort being required for meaningful content. The problem is, the word "meaningful" is terribly relative. SE can't please everyone, and with their intent to market XIV as a more casual friendly MMO, they're basically trying to implement a wide array of content that will somehow please the majority of people.
Quote:
"It's an MMORPG, so I believe we should have as many players as possible playing it, and when thinking about it as a business, I believe it is my job to get as many accounts made as possible." - Yoshida through famitsu

The state of the game as is happens to be vastly different from what they keep promising us, so I suppose we'll have to see what happens down the line, and if/how relic acquisition differs in 2.0.

Yet when you consider content in XI, despite the endless repetition required to get certain (most) things, there was a level of competence required to even take on such content. Allusions to XIV 2.0 over the course of E3 have pointed to the return of battle regimens, 24 person alliances, and the much needed return of debuffs. Perhaps all that will actually promote content which doesn't get old so quickly simply because it is more engaging. Sure this is opinion, but I don't know many who played XI that aren't begging for deeper and more challenging content. Right now, dungeons are just like regen. The cooldown is so short, you just spam them for the desired effect.

I acquiesce that challenge or no, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a repetitive grind. But it adds a much needed (imho) sense of accomplishment to actually obtaining the item beyond just time and luck being the sole factors. So in answer to your question, 7 hours or 7 months, I'd still consider it too easy. The question here is time involvement, not difficulty.

Back in the days of EQ.. or even further back with MUDs, MUSHes, MOOs, this was a niche genre, and many people actually enjoyed working together for the sense of accomplishment. Sure people could be just as self serving as they are these days, but now you're hard pressed to even find people to run content with if it's no benefit to them. And the reason why is because the game's on easymode. There's no novelty to coordination or tactics. There's no penalty for failure. It's just a matter of putting in the hours to get the item and being done with it.

Corpse running is an outdated concept too, but when you think about it, throwing time at content which can be accomplished by people who barely know their role isn't much better. With MMOs trending toward casual gameplay over the past several years, the solution to any problem is far too often found in a combination of time involvement and luck rather than in something which gives the player a real sense of accomplishment. And in the case of relics, it seems like it has almost been specifically designed to fill this 3-5 month gap before the servers shut down for 2.0 rather than to set up the foundation for one of the best weapons in the game.

I'd like to see some challenging quest chains and boss fights for relic parts and subsequent DoH assembling. Make the drop rate as abyssmal as you want. Put a three week timer on one part or another. Just don't bore me with repetitive content that isn't even meaningful but for the goal.
#61 Jun 07 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Shadowmourne is a good comparison in my opinion, but the difference between the requirements for the 2 is what i'm more interested on, see this is the shadowmourne quest:

Quote:
The Shadowmourne Quest Chain:

You must be friendly with the Ashen Verdict to obtain this quest.

You first must obtain Arthas' old hammer from when he was a paladin and a variety of mats (including 25 primordial saronite, basically the Icecrown equivalent of a crusader orb, and the blood of the two abomination bosses of the Plague Wing) in the quest The Sacred and the Corrupt, completing this will forge Shadow's Edge.

Then you get to harvest 1000 souls with the axe (just kill 1000 mobs in ICC on either 10 or 25 man) for A feast of Souls.

Next, you must take the axe and complete three quests involving the end bosses of the three wings of the citadel, starting with Professor Putricide in the Plagueworks, then Blood Queen Lana'thel in the Crimson Hall, and finally Sindragosa in the Frostwing Halls.

The first quest is Unholy Infusion, in which you must use the ability Shadow Infusion while controlling the abomination, then proceed to kill Professor Putricide within 6 minutes before the resulting buff wears off. This quest is only completable on 25 player mode.

The second quest is Blood Infusion. To complete the infusion for this quest you must first stand next to your tank for a moment so that you can be affected by Blood Mirror which will apply the debuff Gushing Wound, you don't need to stand there long, just a split second to apply the debuff. After getting the debuff you need use the Vampiric Bite ability twice to get the debuff to a 3 stack, then once more to apply the buff you need to have when you kill the boss to complete the quest (for a total of 3 bites). In order to get all three bites before your raid runs out of people to bite, you need to either be the first vampire, or be bitten by the first vampire. Seeing as the latter is more likely, make sure you're on the top priority to get bitten.

The third quest is, you guessed it, Frost Infusion. To complete the infusion you must get hit four times by Sindragosa's Frost Breath (Inflicts 37000 to 43000 Frost damage to enemies in a 60 yard cone in front of the caster. In addition, the targets' attack speed and chance to dodge are decreased by 50% for 6 sec. Melee range. 1.5 sec cast) four times, then proceed to kill her. Ouch.

You then get to farm bosses in the instance for a while for the quest The Splintered Throne to get 50 Shadowfrost Shards (25-50% drop chance on 25 player normal; 50-99% on 25 hard), they are looted items, however they can only be seen if someone in the raid is on this part of the quest chain.

After completing this quest, you will finally be given Shadowmourne in the quest: Shadowmourne... After obtaining the axe there is one additional quest: The Lich King's Last Stand which has you take your newly forged weapon and slay the Lich King.


And this is the requirement for a relic in FFXIV:

Quote:
Step 1 - Earn 25,000 seals and buy the key item "On the Properties of Beastment"

Step 2 - Obtain Inferno Seal x3, Tremor Seal x3, Vortex Seal x3 from Rank 2 Hamlet (gold chest requiring 60K+ scores)

Step 3 - Talk to Rowena and Exchange for a Soiled Promissory Note

Step 4 - Go to Gerolt and start Quest "A Relic Reborn"

Step 5 - Gather HQ mats and craft or buy Class-Only Weapons (prefferably HQ)

Step 6 - Double meld the gear with 2 Teir IV Materia of a specific Type as follows:

PLD = Mailbreaker + ? (Most Likely +HP based on AF stats)
MNK = Avengers + Manathirst IV (+MP)
WAR = Rampager + Touch of Rage IV (Emnity)
DRG = Obelisk + Savage Might IV (Crit Attack)
BRD = Sarnga + Heaven's Eye IV (Accuracy)
WHM = Alkaurops + ? (Most likely Mind based on AF stats)
BLM = Astrolobe + ****'s Fist IV (Magic Potency)

Step 7 - Kill chief NM of one specified Stronghold.

PLD =
MNK = Flamefist in Zaha'rak
WAR =
DRG =
BRD =
WHM =
BLM =

Step 8 - Gather 3 Materials from 6th Chest available at end of AV and CC Run
Items: Miser's Mythril (Aurum Vale), Alumina Salts (Cutter's Cry)

Step 9 - ?


You cant really compare the two quests, one is an epic quest, that involves grind/skill/and money sink. the other one is just some good old grind and spend some money lol
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#62 Jun 07 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Shadowmourne is a good comparison in my opinion, but the difference between the requirements for the 2 is what i'm more interested on, see this is the shadowmourne quest:

Quote:
The Shadowmourne Quest Chain:

You must be friendly with the Ashen Verdict to obtain this quest.

You first must obtain Arthas' old hammer from when he was a paladin and a variety of mats (including 25 primordial saronite, basically the Icecrown equivalent of a crusader orb, and the blood of the two abomination bosses of the Plague Wing) in the quest The Sacred and the Corrupt, completing this will forge Shadow's Edge.

Then you get to harvest 1000 souls with the axe (just kill 1000 mobs in ICC on either 10 or 25 man) for A feast of Souls.

Next, you must take the axe and complete three quests involving the end bosses of the three wings of the citadel, starting with Professor Putricide in the Plagueworks, then Blood Queen Lana'thel in the Crimson Hall, and finally Sindragosa in the Frostwing Halls.

The first quest is Unholy Infusion, in which you must use the ability Shadow Infusion while controlling the abomination, then proceed to kill Professor Putricide within 6 minutes before the resulting buff wears off. This quest is only completable on 25 player mode.

The second quest is Blood Infusion. To complete the infusion for this quest you must first stand next to your tank for a moment so that you can be affected by Blood Mirror which will apply the debuff Gushing Wound, you don't need to stand there long, just a split second to apply the debuff. After getting the debuff you need use the Vampiric Bite ability twice to get the debuff to a 3 stack, then once more to apply the buff you need to have when you kill the boss to complete the quest (for a total of 3 bites). In order to get all three bites before your raid runs out of people to bite, you need to either be the first vampire, or be bitten by the first vampire. Seeing as the latter is more likely, make sure you're on the top priority to get bitten.

The third quest is, you guessed it, Frost Infusion. To complete the infusion you must get hit four times by Sindragosa's Frost Breath (Inflicts 37000 to 43000 Frost damage to enemies in a 60 yard cone in front of the caster. In addition, the targets' attack speed and chance to dodge are decreased by 50% for 6 sec. Melee range. 1.5 sec cast) four times, then proceed to kill her. Ouch.

You then get to farm bosses in the instance for a while for the quest The Splintered Throne to get 50 Shadowfrost Shards (25-50% drop chance on 25 player normal; 50-99% on 25 hard), they are looted items, however they can only be seen if someone in the raid is on this part of the quest chain.

After completing this quest, you will finally be given Shadowmourne in the quest: Shadowmourne... After obtaining the axe there is one additional quest: The Lich King's Last Stand which has you take your newly forged weapon and slay the Lich King.


And this is the requirement for a relic in FFXIV:

Quote:
Step 1 - Earn 25,000 seals and buy the key item "On the Properties of Beastment"

Step 2 - Obtain Inferno Seal x3, Tremor Seal x3, Vortex Seal x3 from Rank 2 Hamlet (gold chest requiring 60K+ scores)

Step 3 - Talk to Rowena and Exchange for a Soiled Promissory Note

Step 4 - Go to Gerolt and start Quest "A Relic Reborn"

Step 5 - Gather HQ mats and craft or buy Class-Only Weapons (prefferably HQ)

Step 6 - Double meld the gear with 2 Teir IV Materia of a specific Type as follows:

PLD = Mailbreaker + ? (Most Likely +HP based on AF stats)
MNK = Avengers + Manathirst IV (+MP)
WAR = Rampager + Touch of Rage IV (Emnity)
DRG = Obelisk + Savage Might IV (Crit Attack)
BRD = Sarnga + Heaven's Eye IV (Accuracy)
WHM = Alkaurops + ? (Most likely Mind based on AF stats)
BLM = Astrolobe + ****'s Fist IV (Magic Potency)

Step 7 - Kill chief NM of one specified Stronghold.

PLD =
MNK = Flamefist in Zaha'rak
WAR =
DRG =
BRD =
WHM =
BLM =

Step 8 - Gather 3 Materials from 6th Chest available at end of AV and CC Run
Items: Miser's Mythril (Aurum Vale), Alumina Salts (Cutter's Cry)

Step 9 - ?


You cant really compare the two quests, one is an epic quest, that involves grind/skill/and money sink. the other one is just some good old grind and spend some money lol


That's the thing right there... both Shadowmourne and "Relics" are intended not to be acquired over night. Are not mandatory, and are fully optional for the people who want to invest the time, and challenge the odds. They are "Special" in the manner that every one can attempt, but not every one will obtain. A Ferrari* is no different, everyone want's one.. when they see it people take a second glance, but not everyone can afford it.

*or any high end luxury product really
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#63 Jun 07 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI & XIV are not a western type quest grinder. But SE is capable of challenging, deep, and rewarding quest. Many of the things to make that possible are not in place yet though. They are just reaching the point of making the game a true mmo with alliances, large scale content, server efficiency, etc. ****, the combat system is not even finalized yet. It is kind of hard for them to devote 100% attention to deep quest, when 1/2 there resources are spent fixing the game up. After 2.0 goes gold, I expect to see that type of challenging content take shape. 2.0 is not a new world. But it marks the beginning of content taking precedence over overhaul.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Promathia_Missions
The oven is just reaching the desired temperature for SE to begin baking delicacies. Just a little longer. If the number of developers being assigned to XIV post 2.0 is true. Content should flow much faster than it did in XI. Apply that CoP mentality & substitute the ring for a relic weapon & we get depth.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/06/07/e3-2012-the-plan-for-final-fantasy-xiv-on-playstation-3
It's quite easy to hate on SE because they failed their mmo fanbase at the initial launch. They are still having growing pains of not being the elephant in the room in the days of snes & ps1/2. They have shown to be humble and try their best to win our hearts back. If XIV still makes you feel like all is lost 6 months post 2.0. Then I might jump ship & abandon hope. Quit a few mmos might kick XIV's *** in subs and difficulty. But I want to play an mmo in the FF universe, not Star Wars or whatever. Dammit, I'm at least going to give them the option to woo me the first year of 2.0 before I pack my bags.

Battle Regiments, combos, & incapacitations, Battle Regiments, combos, & incapacitations. What a bright future you could potentially weave. Weave a deep pattern that requires skill. Layer it in silk, bloodied from battle tested tribulations. Clothe me in hate of your unforgiving, condescending hardships. A touch of masochism & a sprinkle of ingenuity. Let my friends rejoice in drunken laughter as our enemies are vanquished before us.
#64 Jun 07 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Shadowmourne when compared to other epics in wow, was the most obtainable out of them all, sure the quest was semi hard and long, but the access to it was really none, all you had to do was go to icecrown get a drop, and wala on your way you are, dint meter if you where a casual or hardcore, the rest was up to how you progressed with your guild on said istance, and some semi deep pockets if you wanted to rush it out.

The relics on the other hand instantly block a large portion of the player base, there is no fun in doing chores over and over again, and i cannot even comprehend why would you reward players with good equipment wish will be upgraded later on, for doing basically the easiest thing you can do in a MMO(Grind.)


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#65 Jun 07 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
FFXI & XIV are not a western type quest grinder. But SE is capable of challenging, deep, and rewarding quest. Many of the things to make that possible are not in place yet though. They are just reaching the point of making the game a true mmo with alliances, large scale content, server efficiency, etc. ****, the combat system is not even finalized yet. It is kind of hard for them to devote 100% attention to deep quest, when 1/2 there resources are spent fixing the game up. After 2.0 goes gold, I expect to see that type of challenging content take shape. 2.0 is not a new world. But it marks the beginning of content taking precedence over overhaul.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Promathia_Missions
The oven is just reaching the desired temperature for SE to begin baking delicacies. Just a little longer. If the number of developers being assigned to XIV post 2.0 is true. Content should flow much faster than it did in XI. Apply that CoP mentality & substitute the ring for a relic weapon & we get depth.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/06/07/e3-2012-the-plan-for-final-fantasy-xiv-on-playstation-3
It's quite easy to hate on SE because they failed their mmo fanbase at the initial launch. They are still having growing pains of not being the elephant in the room in the days of snes & ps1/2. They have shown to be humble and try their best to win our hearts back. If XIV still makes you feel like all is lost 6 months post 2.0. Then I might jump ship & abandon hope. Quit a few mmos might kick XIV's *** in subs and difficulty. But I want to play an mmo in the FF universe, not Star Wars or whatever. Dammit, I'm at least going to give them the option to woo me the first year of 2.0 before I pack my bags.

Battle Regiments, combos, & incapacitations, Battle Regiments, combos, & incapacitations. What a bright future you could potentially weave. Weave a deep pattern that requires skill. Layer it in silk, bloodied from battle tested tribulations. Clothe me in hate of your unforgiving, condescending hardships. A touch of masochism & a sprinkle of ingenuity. Let my friends rejoice in drunken laughter as our enemies are vanquished before us.


You do know the guys in charge of creating content, are not the guys in charge of creating the server infrastructure or creating items, or making the game look pretty, or so and so and so, they are in charge of creating content PERIOD!

And please stop using 2.0 as an excuse for the sorry state the game is in, if SE had dropped an istance that was on par with Ulduar, then i would be like "Damm if they did this in 1.0, i cannot wait to see what they can be able to do once 2.0 arrives" instead they have delivered willing caverns again and again, i'm i to expect scarlet monastery in 2.0 ?

Also how are they even humble ? Hey we know our game sucks and we got 15-25K players, but pay us anyways, we know we know we are not up to par with any MMO anywhere in this planet, but who cares, you love us guys, so open them wallets kids
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#66 Jun 07 2012 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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I 'm not arguing who handles what details. I'm saying that whoever designs content, their team is smaller than it will be post 2.0 period. Other mmos= content & routine maintenance, SE= all that plus rebuilding the game. You don't have to expect anything. Let the time pass and judge for yourself post 2.0. If the content makes you happy, subscribe. If it doesn't, continue playing Wow or EDS, etc. That is the beauty of a sub based model. People do it all the time.

So letting your players play for a year free with access to full content is greedy? They are still a business with investors, the intent of making an mmo is to make money. XIV 1.0 may or may not be the worst start in mmo history. But I think it was the first mmo that let players do that. You name me another business that does that & is not volunteered or charity work.
#67 Jun 07 2012 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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First off you have no information to claim that the whoever handles content has a smaller team than the 3 monkey's of a team that handles their Servers.

They let us play for a year, because they messed up, they blatantly lied to their consumers about their product and what they where gonna go with It. The greedy part comes, when they first said, they would fix 1.0, then they switch it and said we are gonna start from scratch with 2.0, and then they had the nerve to ask for our money, when they blatantly insisted that they would not ask for money, until the 1.0 was on par with MMO standards.

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#68 Jun 07 2012 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia, I agree with your assessments of what has been done so far on many things. Many times you get rated down, but you judge things based off what you see and not future promise. You may end up being right, however neither I nor you know for sure how deep content will be in the future. I'm basing my comment on what Yoshi stated in the recent ign interview(Lots of content) & the knowledge that some of the former XI team is working on XIV(Depth). We also agreed that Ito needs to direct another offline FF with Kitase as producer. Do I have proof that content will become deeper or will release faster? No, I don't. But there is no proof it won't either. Time will tell & for SE's sake, it better deliver on both fronts to become a profitable mmo.

Here is a snippet from the Yoshi interview on ign:

So what’s the timeline on all this? First, in August, Square Enix will ramp up more detailed reveals about what’s to come in Final Fantasy XIV. Then in September, there’ll be an alpha test, and after feedback is collected and incorporated into the game, a beta test version will roll out first for PC, then for PlayStation 3. “We want to make sure this time we take a lot of time to listen to feedback from users during this beta test and implement as much of it as possible before the release,” said Yoshida. “We want to make sure we have a massive amount of content at launch. We don’t want to go into launch without enough to do. So it’s going to be building up that content base and getting this feedback in. That might end up pushing the release back a little. It’s all going to depend on that.”

Now is the time to have our voices heard on content being ideal for us. E3 has sparked the fight for wants on the official forums. I only hope that in addition to feedback they also have in game polls for that intensive feedback right before 2.0. So SE doesn't only listen to the vocal minority but the silent majority as well.
#69 Jun 07 2012 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
they have delivered willing caverns again and again, i'm i to expect scarlet monastery in 2.0 ?


I personally loved the Willing Caverns: they were always so accommodating with their drops.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#70 Jun 08 2012 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:

There needs to be rarity to allow individuality. Everyone wants an identity, it's the reason for many complaints XIV received at 1.0 launch. Rinsui commented on being glad we couldn't unlock relics for all jobs. This contrast somewhat with rarity. What's the point of progression if all roads are straight and narrow?


There are lots of ways to create individuality. How about having a LOT of different options that complement different playstyles? then the people that have ten times as much time to play as me could have ten times as many weapons and could fill ten times as many niche situations? And I could still have a weapon that isn't AH junk without sacrificing my real life for a year to get it?

Of course, that would take work from the development team, to make a bunch of items that are actually desirable (fairly balanced or situational) - and to create different types of content where those items could be accessed - and create engaging battle systems with tactics that could be enhanced by said equipment.

ALSO - people complained (and still complained) because the itemization sucks so much there is NO individuality. I don't think creating two groups of people (those with a relic and those without) only is real individuality - that is just creating an in group and an out group.

I know it is a lot to ask, but I'd rather reward a company that allows for "individuality" by well balanced class mechanics and fully fleshed out, diverse itemization. It'd be a lot more "diverse" if there was weapons and armor a BLM could collect to become a Thunder specialist versus a Fire specialist - or a DoT specialist. Then the hardcore folks could collect all the different sets and people like me could decide on a niche they'd like to play the most - and work on getting there -

I play the game to play the game, not to spend all my time getting the ONE AND ONLY piece of gear, which (lets be honest) I won't be invited to participate in other content, without. (It happens in XI, I don't think it won't happen here) - that's not "individuality" that's "keep the filthy casuals out"
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#71 Jun 08 2012 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
FFXI & XIV are not a western type quest grinder. But SE is capable of challenging, deep, and rewarding quest.


Stopped reading after the lie came out.

Square-Enix knows virtually nothing of actually rewarding players after a quest; they know RNG and more RNG. That's it.

If RNGception ever becomes a meme, SE will probably sue because they thought of it first.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 3:31pm by Viertel
#72 Jun 08 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I think he confused spending 500000 gazillion hours doing some grinding as "HARD AND CHALLENGING!"
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#73 Jun 08 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I think he confused spending 500000 gazillion hours doing some grinding as "HARD AND CHALLENGING!"


Well that's the thing, "relics" are not intended to be hard, or challenging. They are intended to be a time sink, for those who have the time to sink. Relic need's money, time, luck, and that's about it.

Only reason's i see for all this complaining is:
a) people don't want to craft
b) people don't want to gather
c) people don't want to do combat
d) people want "congratulations you logged in here's a relic of your choice"
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#74 Jun 08 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is a difference between not wanting to spend 1000-10,000 hours doing repetitive tasks to get a digital weapon, and wanting one to be handed to you when you log in.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#75 Jun 08 2012 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:
There is a difference between not wanting to spend 1000-10,000 hours doing repetitive tasks to get a digital weapon, and wanting one to be handed to you when you log in.


Fully agree, but so far i have yet to see an idea step forward how it would be better done. So the "relics" still remain well "relics", and it doesn't become repetitive. How would the people complaining make it so, that said item would not be obtainable by every one. With out introducing a method which weeds out people, who have no interest and are just along for the ride.
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#76 Jun 08 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I think he confused spending 500000 gazillion hours doing some grinding as "HARD AND CHALLENGING!"


Well that's the thing, "relics" are not intended to be hard, or challenging. They are intended to be a time sink, for those who have the time to sink. Relic need's money, time, luck, and that's about it.

Only reason's i see for all this complaining is:
a) people don't want to craft
b) people don't want to gather
c) people don't want to do combat
d) people want "congratulations you logged in here's a relic of your choice"


A-) Crafting sucks!
B-) Crafting sucks yet again!
C-) People want combat, the difference is we want well developed challenging combat
D-) No we don't wanna log in and get a wepon, we just wanna have FUN while acquiring said weapon
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#77 Jun 08 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
With out introducing a method which weeds out people, who have no interest and are just along for the ride.

Oh yes. Please weed out those casuals. SE will easily be able to do without them. They've already proven that for almost 2 years now. The game will do just fine with the hard, dedicated core of true gamers. If you don't want to grind the same content for months, there's plenty of games that offer alternatives. Go play WoW. Or any other successful title. True gamers need challenging content, that is, content that takes so long to complete that only the truly hardcore can complete it. Because the amount of time invested proves your worth just as much as luck with random number generators. It's a tried and true formula since the 80's and there's no need to change it. Otherwise FF XIV will turn into yet another WoW clone.

FF titles have always been something for special, dedicated and hardcore players. You may get a glimpse of what awaits you solo or by playing up to 8 hours a week, but to see the remaining half of the endgame content, you really need a crystalized, strictly organized and hierarchical linkshell that is willing to risk their accounts by making use of state-of-the-art UI enhancements. To come out on top of the weeds, risks have to be taken. If you're not man enough for this, endgame simply is not for you. Settle for something more appropriate, like, a dual-melded Yarzon Harpoon or something. You will never get a chance to fight the true big bosses anyway, so it will serve you just fine.

In every society, there's the lords and there's the pawns. It's just like in real life, and games should be no different. If everybody could just have fun, and have a chance to experience the whole content, there would be no incentive to better yourself. That's just justice. If I invest 8 hours a day to organize my linkshell, you bet I'd be ****** if any married family man hobo was granted a realistic chance to obtain a relic weapon as well. I mean, I'm sacrificing a third of my youth for this. I have to be rewarded for that decision.

A famous man in my home country (Toyotomi Hideyoshi) once said: "Peasants should be treated like cattle. Give them just enough to survive and pay their taxes, but make sure they never have anything left at the end of the planting season. This way they will have to work to survive and never have the time for a rebellion." In a way, this applies to the casual lot as well. SE should provide them with just enough carrot'o'sticks so they keep paying their monthly fees, but they should never be able to catch up with the top layer of the dedicated elite. They have to be kept in their place and struggle endlessly. Every good society needs a hierarchy, and fantasy games should be no different.
#78 Jun 08 2012 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I am not sure why any subscription game would want to weed out anyone...
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#79 Jun 08 2012 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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Whew. I actually feared someone could misunderstand my post.
I need to be more confident that not everybody has forgotten what playing a game originally meant.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 7:49pm by Rinsui
#80 Jun 08 2012 at 7:19 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:

There are lots of ways to create individuality. How about having a LOT of different options that complement different playstyles? then the people that have ten times as much time to play as me could have ten times as many weapons and could fill ten times as many niche situations? And I could still have a weapon that isn't AH junk without sacrificing my real life for a year to get it?

Of course, that would take work from the development team, to make a bunch of items that are actually desirable (fairly balanced or situational) - and to create different types of content where those items could be accessed - and create engaging battle systems with tactics that could be enhanced by said equipment.

ALSO - people complained (and still complained) because the itemization sucks so much there is NO individuality. I don't think creating two groups of people (those with a relic and those without) only is real individuality - that is just creating an in group and an out group.

I know it is a lot to ask, but I'd rather reward a company that allows for "individuality" by well balanced class mechanics and fully fleshed out, diverse itemization. It'd be a lot more "diverse" if there was weapons and armor a BLM could collect to become a Thunder specialist versus a Fire specialist - or a DoT specialist. Then the hardcore folks could collect all the different sets and people like me could decide on a niche they'd like to play the most - and work on getting there -

I play the game to play the game, not to spend all my time getting the ONE AND ONLY piece of gear, which (lets be honest) I won't be invited to participate in other content, without. (It happens in XI, I don't think it won't happen here) - that's not "individuality" that's "keep the filthy casuals out"

Everything you list about your idea of individuality & good itemization was done in XI Abyssea/Magian trials. You had meritable ws, weapons, magic attribute weapons, etc. The problem wasn't itemization, it was the one sided weakness of mobs characteristics that made any good itemization trivial. Everything was weak to thunder or ice or strongest ws. Low and behold, the same pattern of mob triviality is creeping into XIV. You can try to balance jobs & itemization, but if mob characteristics are monotone. It's a lost cause. Players are clamoring for some form of skillchains. I guarantee you that if SE doesn't make mobs resistant to spam single ws and actually make it where skillchains means victory or defeat. Any form of implemented skillchains will go the way of the dodo here too. Because SE doesn't balance their mobs properly in context with weaknesses.

People complained about abyssea because it shortened the gap bewteen their career long items, jobs, merits. It put the casuals on even ground in terms of player progress.(I'm excluding the way it shrunk world partying in a six person setup, where roles are less redundant mind you.) There has to be a top of the line carrot, a above median carrot,, a good carrot, and an auction house fighter. You provide goals for the totally dedicated, the dedicated in short play times, and the I dont give a fudge, I just want to play without endgame progression drama players. If SE ignores one of the hardcore, everything becomes too casual, hardcore leave the game. If they ignore the casuals, they get a hardcore masochists but smaller following. If they ignore the idc about endgame players, they don't draw from as big as a potential audience.

I play and wil play XIV for the same reasons you play. The only relic I got in XI was Aegis, but I don't have the time to pursue that kind of thing anymore. I never once got turned down to an endgame shell I applied to for not playing paladin. My first shell that helped me earn that Aegis would have tried made me play pld usually if they didn't break the shell. Usually only the extreme hardcore veteran linkshells are the only ones that demand you be equipped with the best of the best stats.

Not everyone is supposed to have relic or ultimate gear and not everyone will. That's why you join or make a shell that shares your goals and expectations. If you have friends who try to make you feel inferior by talking trash about your gear or whatnot. Maybe you need to find different friends? I might spend a few weekends a year playing XIV 5-8hrs, but that doesn't mean I have to chase the top of the line carrot. I'm happy with the second tier stuff that makes me proficient enough to party, do some endgame, help my friends. But most of all have fun in my game. I got enough **** to stress over outside to let a game stress . I want to relax...
#81 Jun 08 2012 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
sandpark wrote:
FFXI & XIV are not a western type quest grinder. But SE is capable of challenging, deep, and rewarding quest.


Stopped reading after the lie came out.

Square-Enix knows virtually nothing of actually rewarding players after a quest; they know RNG and more RNG. That's it.

If RNGception ever becomes a meme, SE will probably sue because they thought of it first.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 3:31pm by Viertel

No, it is not a lie. The expansions rewarded you with a reward not a chance at a reward. Abyssea didn't completly get rid of rng. But if you killed the NM, the odds of getting your desired item was fairly high. Do you know what happened on the forums? The people who spent years chasing down very rare drops over the course of years had a ragequit.

Abyssea was a good concept but bad execution. If they would have either made the gear zone active only, or not such a high step above outside aby gear, capped abyssea at 75. It would have been seen as good standalone content. Problem was that it @#%^ed with everything SE had built over the last 8 years. The carrot went from chasing years for select pieces to chasing months. And even though I enjoyed the masochism from the previous eight years. It felt so @#%^ing good to know I was making decent progress in a shorter amount of time.

People say Abyssea made the whole game easy mode. Well if abyssea was standalone content and it was done similar to what I stated above, that would not be a problem. It wasn't just aby, the raising of the cap to 99 without strengthing the rest of the world mobs significantly added, the moving away from skillchains added, the bad mob characteristics of mobs added, many factors contributed.

If you meant XIV solely and not including XI so far. Then I am inclined to agree with you for the most part excluding Garuda fight.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 9:34pm by sandpark
#82 Jun 08 2012 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Whew. I actually feared someone could misunderstand my post.
I need to be more confident that not everybody has forgotten what playing a game originally meant.


Pretty much this. Actually and unfortunately, too much this.

People forget that they're playing a game and the purpose is entertainment. SE forgets that it's possible to create long lasting content grinds that don't actually feel like grinds because they're fun, provide a clear path of progression and have replay value. You'd think that 10 years of MMO experience and 7 years of development would be enough time to piece that together.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#83 Jun 08 2012 at 11:19 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
And SE strikes yet again, with another "1998-2003" Mechanic in a 2012 MMORPG!


Yes, everything older than nine years is bad. No game mechanics were good until 2004 to present. Smiley: rolleyes
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

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#84 Jun 08 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
And SE strikes yet again, with another "1998-2003" Mechanic in a 2012 MMORPG!


Yes, everything older than nine years is bad. No game mechanics were good until 2004 to present. Smiley: rolleyes


True! Unless you consider grinding and grinding or grinding or grinding again a fun and engaging mechanic. Now don't get me wrong, grinding has it's place in any MMO, but it cant be 99.9% of the content.

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#85 Jun 09 2012 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Viertel wrote:
Stopped reading after the lie came out.

Square-Enix knows virtually nothing of actually rewarding players after a quest; they know RNG and more RNG. That's it.

If RNGception ever becomes a meme, SE will probably sue because they thought of it first.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 3:31pm by Viertel

No, it is not a lie. The expansions rewarded you with a reward not a chance at a reward. Abyssea didn't completly get rid of rng. But if you killed the NM, the odds of getting your desired item was fairly high. Do you know what happened on the forums? The people who spent years chasing down very rare drops over the course of years had a ragequit.

Abyssea was a good concept but bad execution. If they would have either made the gear zone active only, or not such a high step above outside aby gear, capped abyssea at 75. It would have been seen as good standalone content. Problem was that it @#%^ed with everything SE had built over the last 8 years. The carrot went from chasing years for select pieces to chasing months. And even though I enjoyed the masochism from the previous eight years. It felt so @#%^ing good to know I was making decent progress in a shorter amount of time.

People say Abyssea made the whole game easy mode. Well if abyssea was standalone content and it was done similar to what I stated above, that would not be a problem. It wasn't just aby, the raising of the cap to 99 without strengthing the rest of the world mobs significantly added, the moving away from skillchains added, the bad mob characteristics of mobs added, many factors contributed.

If you meant XIV solely and not including XI so far. Then I am inclined to agree with you for the most part excluding Garuda fight.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 9:34pm by sandpark



No, just... no. You're so far off the mark of good game design it's not even funny.

Square-Enix didn't hand you a quest that rewarded you: they gave you an in-game item at the end of an expansion's lifespan as a token "Thanks for giving us almost 2 years of payment, here's something you can swap in a macro!" One item per expansion isn't "rewarding questing" considering most every other quest was worthless in it's a throwaway item or a map that's equally worthless.

~~~~~

The people that quit when Abyssea quit were the problem with the game in the first place. They were whiney children that loved the stale, stagnant atmosphere Tanaka himself helped to perpetuate by bloating the game with a senseless and annoying macro-swap **** due to virtually no upgrades over the 7 years. They were topdogs because of their botting and no-life 24-72 hour spawn camping, not due to any other reason. Due to this attitude the game began hemmoraging subscribers because nothing new of interest was ever coming down the pipelines.

Then Tanaka decided to actually put his full focus on FFXIV and temporarily handed the reigns over to someone infinitely more competent than he: Yoshida. Yoshida decided to take the game out of its stagnation and push it forward and actually give the players some power. Suddenly, there was actual progression towards your character's power level and not simply be at the mercy of the RNG gods on a piece of gear. There wasn't this massive need for huge 18+extrahealersormeatshields in order to clear the 'hardest' content.

Guess what? It brought players back into the game and all over the boards you could hear a lot of people state they were having fun again. The masses were having fun in Final Fantasy XI, and certain morons wanted to cry foul because their precious pixels -- some of which they've had for almost seven years -- weren't topdogs anymore. Frankly, those crybabies (the minority this time) needed a good dose of STFU. People were actually coming back into the game, pickup groups were at an all-time high, and people were out in the world and actually playing instead of sitting in Jeuno and doing nothing!

Abyssea wasn't so easy when it first came out, and didn't start to become LOLZ until the end of the second (when the really good atmas came out) DLC expansion. The problem with Abyssea ended up being they left the monster power levels alone but the players' grew -- that's a BARANCE issue only. They could have continued in this vein and design optional endgame fights that were massively difficult to players with the best-of-the-best atmas but they didn't. Tanaka comes back, sees his illusionary vision of BARANCE (i.e. weak players, gruelling grinds, abysmal RNG droprates) and immediately sets about doing a complete 180 turn to go back to FFXI of the '04 era. He calls players actually having fun a "failure" and comes out with LOGWAT-- I mean, Voidwatch: boring copypasted bosses with abysmal droprates and you can't share loot. His glorious, stagnant empire is returning. He hears the cries of the minority that strokes his ego and re-hashes all of the endgame FFXI players have already done because A) he's lazy as **** B) the same idiots tell him players should have to crawl those the levels of **** they had to.

So no, Abyssea was the best damned thing that happened to FFXI throughout its lifespan because it breathed new life into the game. To state anything else is moronic to the highest degree. The only whiners are those whose gear wasn't "TOP DOG" forever and frankly aren't going to be happy in any MMO anyway; they want a stagnant atmosphere where they reach a plateau of gear and never want to have to be bothered to work harder because "it should always trump anything else that comes out EVAR!"

If you want to keep your precious gear relevant forever, an MMO is not for you. Go play an offline RPG that isn't a massively multiplayer constantly updating world. Post FFXI MMOs have problems, but devaluing older gear isn't one of them because of the gear you earn early on in the game is as strong as something that comes out 2, 4, 6, or even 8 years later why even play the game?

It's called progression of content and apparently it's something Tanaka, others, and yourself still have yet to understand: horizontal character progress does not work.
#86 Jun 09 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
Then Tanaka decided to actually put his full focus on FFXIV and temporarily handed the reigns over to someone infinitely more competent than he: Yoshida. Yoshida decided to take the game out of its stagnation and push it forward and actually give the players some power. Suddenly, there was actual progression towards your character's power level and not simply be at the mercy of the RNG gods on a piece of gear. There wasn't this massive need for huge 18+extrahealersormeatshields in order to clear the 'hardest' content.


Did I slip into a parallel universe again? Smiley: eek
#87 Jun 09 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
No, it is not a lie. The expansions rewarded you with a reward not a chance at a reward. Abyssea didn't completly get rid of rng. But if you killed the NM, the odds of getting your desired item was fairly high. Do you know what happened on the forums? The people who spent years chasing down very rare drops over the course of years had a ragequit.


People didn't ragequit because they spent years chasing down drops. They ragequit because they were told for years that the cap would remain at 75. This is key because the years they spent chasing down rare gear was somewhat justified by that. You figure it's ok to spend that much time because it's the be all end all of gear and it'll last you forever and ever. When that turned out not to be the case there was some reasonable fallout. No one was upset that the grind went from years as in the case of relic to weeks as in the case of empyrean weapons.

sandpark wrote:
Abyssea was a good concept but bad execution. If they would have either made the gear zone active only, or not such a high step above outside aby gear, capped abyssea at 75. It would have been seen as good standalone content. Problem was that it @#%^ed with everything SE had built over the last 8 years.


They didn't make the gear zone active because atmas and abyssite were zone active and the problem with uncapping was the way the game scaled. As I said before, they never intended to raise the level cap so SE pretty much designed themselves into a corner. The difference between a normal and high-quality piece of gear was +1 or +2 in most cases and it wasn't uncommon for players to spend exponentially more gil to get these items. If +1 to a stat makes you elite and the person with 1 less is just considered normal, there is a problem.

sandpark wrote:
People say Abyssea made the whole game easy mode. Well if abyssea was standalone content and it was done similar to what I stated above, that would not be a problem. It wasn't just aby, the raising of the cap to 99 without strengthing the rest of the world mobs significantly added, the moving away from skillchains added, the bad mob characteristics of mobs added, many factors contributed.


Abyssea didn't make the game easy mode, the level cap increase did just as you suggest. The mobs didn't need to be strengthened, there needed to be a legit expansion that added areas with mobs both normal, NM and HNM that worked with the increase. It's not unreasonable that something that used to take an alliance an hour to down now takes a single group half the time when you increase the level cap 25 levels.

Also, SE didn't move away from skill chains. The players realized that spamming weaponskills instead of holding TP that would go to waste wasn't a good trade off, especially when it wasn't just damage that you were losing. FYI, most of us realized this well before the level uncapping. The only viable reason you could have for setting up a skillchain/MB is if you had an entire group of BLMs firing off bursts. There might be a return to this should SE decide that they want to include alliance sized content and the price of meteor drops from bazilliontyleven gil.


Edited, Jun 9th 2012 4:08pm by FilthMcNasty
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#88 Jun 09 2012 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
No, just... no. You're so far off the mark of good game design it's not even funny.

Square-Enix didn't hand you a quest that rewarded you: they gave you an in-game item at the end of an expansion's lifespan as a token "Thanks for giving us almost 2 years of payment, here's something you can swap in a macro!" One item per expansion isn't "rewarding questing" considering most every other quest was worthless in it's a throwaway item or a map that's equally worthless.

I did not like gear swaps. I said things like Cop showed they know hot to make deep involving, rewarding quest. But I agree that most were under developed or lackluster.

Viertel wrote:
The people that quit when Abyssea quit were the problem with the game in the first place. They were whiney children that loved the stale, stagnant atmosphere Tanaka himself helped to perpetuate by bloating the game with a senseless and annoying macro-swap **** due to virtually no upgrades over the 7 years. They were topdogs because of their botting and no-life 24-72 hour spawn camping, not due to any other reason. Due to this attitude the game began hemmoraging subscribers because nothing new of interest was ever coming down the pipelines.

I was one of the people who enjoyed abyssea. I also pushed for no long respawns that were bottable during the beginning of hearing about XIV on forums. Now I see people on the official forums wanting that old atmosphere back.

Viertel wrote:
Then Tanaka decided to actually put his full focus on FFXIV and temporarily handed the reigns over to someone infinitely more competent than he: Yoshida. Yoshida decided to take the game out of its stagnation and push it forward and actually give the players some power. Suddenly, there was actual progression towards your character's power level and not simply be at the mercy of the RNG gods on a piece of gear. There wasn't this massive need for huge 18+extrahealersormeatshields in order to clear the 'hardest' content.

Guess what? It brought players back into the game and all over the boards you could hear a lot of people state they were having fun again. The masses were having fun in Final Fantasy XI, and certain morons wanted to cry foul because their precious pixels -- some of which they've had for almost seven years -- weren't topdogs anymore. Frankly, those crybabies (the minority this time) needed a good dose of STFU. People were actually coming back into the game, pickup groups were at an all-time high, and people were out in the world and actually playing instead of sitting in Jeuno and doing nothing!

I have always detested needing a strict group type for everything. I hated sitting around waiting for fun instead of having fun. This is why I like the concept of flexible classes for leveling and jobs for difficult endgame content. It's why I am in favor of no long lockout timers. I just wish drops were a little less rng. I hate sitting around not able to participate in what I want, when I want. I pay for the game.

Viertel wrote:
Abyssea wasn't so easy when it first came out, and didn't start to become LOLZ until the end of the second (when the really good atmas came out) DLC expansion. The problem with Abyssea ended up being they left the monster power levels alone but the players' grew -- that's a BARANCE issue only. They could have continued in this vein and design optional endgame fights that were massively difficult to players with the best-of-the-best atmas but they didn't. Tanaka comes back, sees his illusionary vision of BARANCE (i.e. weak players, gruelling grinds, abysmal RNG droprates) and immediately sets about doing a complete 180 turn to go back to FFXI of the '04 era. He calls players actually having fun a "failure" and comes out with LOGWAT-- I mean, Voidwatch: boring copypasted bosses with abysmal droprates and you can't share loot. His glorious, stagnant empire is returning. He hears the cries of the minority that strokes his ego and re-hashes all of the endgame FFXI players have already done because A) he's lazy as **** B) the same idiots tell him players should have to crawl those the levels of **** they had to.

So no, Abyssea was the best damned thing that happened to FFXI throughout its lifespan because it breathed new life into the game. To state anything else is moronic to the highest degree. The only whiners are those whose gear wasn't "TOP DOG" forever and frankly aren't going to be happy in any MMO anyway; they want a stagnant atmosphere where they reach a plateau of gear and never want to have to be bothered to work harder because "it should always trump anything else that comes out EVAR!"

If you want to keep your precious gear relevant forever, an MMO is not for you. Go play an offline RPG that isn't a massively multiplayer constantly updating world. Post FFXI MMOs have problems, but devaluing older gear isn't one of them because of the gear you earn early on in the game is as strong as something that comes out 2, 4, 6, or even 8 years later why even play the game?

It's called progression of content and apparently it's something Tanaka, others, and yourself still have yet to understand: horizontal character progress does not work.

Abyssea was a good thing for the game. The one thing I disliked about it was leveling. 18 man parties killing squishy enemies for experience is not my idea of fun. The only reason you needed skillchains were for lights. And half the time the mobs were too squishy too survive 1 much less two ws. But this squishy aspect started in TOAU long before Abyssea. Also in larger parties roles become redundant when enemies characteristics are not balanced. This squishy attitude is carrying over in XIV unless you're blind. I think gear should remain pertinent at least two years otherwise the gear treadmill is just a non stop race to the top then back to the botttom. Eight or ten yuears though, that's not healthy for a subbed based mmo.

Horizontal progresss does work for the class system. Sure casuals may not like leveling some classes. Jobs and gear provide that vertical progression you seek.

Edited, Jun 9th 2012 5:34pm by sandpark
#89 Jun 09 2012 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
People didn't ragequit because they spent years chasing down drops. They ragequit because they were told for years that the cap would remain at 75. This is key because the years they spent chasing down rare gear was somewhat justified by that. You figure it's ok to spend that much time because it's the be all end all of gear and it'll last you forever and ever. When that turned out not to be the case there was some reasonable fallout. No one was upset that the grind went from years as in the case of relic to weeks as in the case of empyrean weapons.

But the people I talked to that quit did so because of gear & xp being so easy to get. Their relics got upgraded too, there just wasn't as huge a gap anymore. Aegis or not, I always looked forward to level breaks and expansions. I find more enjoyment in a story based content versus repeatable light story content.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Abyssea didn't make the game easy mode, the level cap increase did just as you suggest. The mobs didn't need to be strengthened, there needed to be a legit expansion that added areas with mobs both normal, NM and HNM that worked with the increase. It's not unreasonable that something that used to take an alliance an hour to down now takes a single group half the time when you increase the level cap 25 levels.

Also, SE didn't move away from skill chains. The players realized that spamming weaponskills instead of holding TP that would go to waste wasn't a good trade off, especially when it wasn't just damage that you were losing. FYI, most of us realized this well before the level uncapping. The only viable reason you could have for setting up a skillchain/MB is if you had an entire group of BLMs firing off bursts. There might be a return to this should SE decide that they want to include alliance sized content and the price of meteor drops from bazilliontyleven gil.


Edited, Jun 9th 2012 4:08pm by FilthMcNasty

True an expansion as you listed would work. That's what I was hoping to do with my shiny new power. Perhaps a city campaign or pvp in abyssea zones with atma lol. Actually SE did move away from skillchains too. People would decide that holding tp was good if non skillchained ws or dot sucked *** without weakening them first with skillchain/burst. They kept constantly introducing squishy mobs. It doesn't have to be alliance stuff. SE just needs to balance mob characteristics before making all the job stuff or don't disregard mobs characteristics.
#90 Jun 09 2012 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Actually SE did move away from skillchains too. People would decide that holding tp was good if non skillchained ws or dot sucked *** without weakening them first with skillchain/burst. They kept constantly introducing squishy mobs. It doesn't have to be alliance stuff. SE just needs to balance mob characteristics before making all the job stuff or don't disregard mobs characteristics.


SE did nothing to discourage SC/MB, it was player's playstyle that dictated how it would be used. A normal group for merit points was hardly a balanced group...

Previously unwanted Dragoons were king at colibri camps for meripo. Warriors discovered they could all go /nin and take turns tanking with spampage. BLMs discovered they could manaburn other mobs down easily. SMNs astral burned. MNKs made bones parties. Nearly any job with a high damage capability could capitalize on their strengths and didn't have to rely on traditional grouping.

Nature of the beast. You need to kill fast to keep your experience chain? You're wasting damage if you over TP before using a weaponskill.


Edited, Jun 10th 2012 1:25am by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#91 Jun 10 2012 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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You ignoring that mobs were designed squishy or weak to thunder or ice 9/10. Had those mobs been designed to resist non synergized skills instantly or overtime without a skillchain or magic burst weakening them initially. There wouldn't be flavor of the month going with OP only.

This was what incapacitations were supposed to do to the high def/hp mobs in XIV initially imo. But lately while it's still there, most mobs are squishy with or without incapacitation.

Hopefully magic and skillchains get tuned to all be viable & equal to dark or light this time around, globally for mobs.
#92 Jun 10 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
You ignoring that mobs were designed squishy or weak to thunder or ice 9/10. Had those mobs been designed to resist non synergized skills instantly or overtime without a skillchain or magic burst weakening them initially. There wouldn't be flavor of the month going with OP only.


It doesn't matter what they're weak to. Normal mobs are in the game for a very simple reason. To grind endlessly until you stack up some experience points. No one wanted to add a system where you needed to expose a weakness to increase kill speed. It's counter-intuitive and it isn't fun.

They also tried and failed to implement something almost exactly like you're talking about. If you don't believe me, just ask the majority of your alliance in abyssea standing there with their backs turned for a few minutes waiting for someone to proc !! weakness. You also only needed like 5 out of the 20 jobs represented to fill that role. This does absolutely nothing to remove OP or flavor of the month classes, it actually promotes them.

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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#93 Jun 10 2012 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
Then Tanaka decided to actually put his full focus on FFXIV and temporarily handed the reigns over to someone infinitely more competent than he: Yoshida. Yoshida decided to take the game out of its stagnation and push it forward and actually give the players some power. Suddenly, there was actual progression towards your character's power level and not simply be at the mercy of the RNG gods on a piece of gear. There wasn't this massive need for huge 18+extrahealersormeatshields in order to clear the 'hardest' content.


Yoshi was never involved with FFXI. In fact, XIV is the first time he's worked on any Final Fantasy game.
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#94 Jun 10 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
You ignoring that mobs were designed squishy or weak to thunder or ice 9/10. Had those mobs been designed to resist non synergized skills instantly or overtime without a skillchain or magic burst weakening them initially. There wouldn't be flavor of the month going with OP only.


It doesn't matter what they're weak to. Normal mobs are in the game for a very simple reason. To grind endlessly until you stack up some experience points. No one wanted to add a system where you needed to expose a weakness to increase kill speed. It's counter-intuitive and it isn't fun.

They also tried and failed to implement something almost exactly like you're talking about. If you don't believe me, just ask the majority of your alliance in abyssea standing there with their backs turned for a few minutes waiting for someone to proc !! weakness. You also only needed like 5 out of the 20 jobs represented to fill that role. This does absolutely nothing to remove OP or flavor of the month classes, it actually promotes them.


Well your gonna grind regardless. Why not make that grind interesting stacking experience points instead of engage, afk, ws ignoring synergy type skillchains? Offer slower kills rewarding much larger xp equal to what you would if mobs were squishy. Ignoring the black mage job, when the cap was 75 there were these statues in sky that resisted everything dd and skillchains made kills much faster. As opposed to spamming.

They stood with their backs turned because the mobs had low defense and hit points speaking of experience mobs. FFXI has some unique OP jobs and redundant jobs. I'm not talking about doing a synergy chain just for the sake of good drops. I'm saying make the mobs so strong that without synergy, a mob is a resistant ****. So players have to actually coordinate to kill efficiently xp wise.

Harder monsters requiring skill> chaining mobs you one or two shot. A grind isn't a grind if you share and work together while having fun.
#95 Jun 10 2012 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Well your gonna grind regardless. Why not make that grind interesting stacking experience points instead of engage, afk, ws ignoring synergy type skillchains? Offer slower kills rewarding much larger xp equal to what you would if mobs were squishy.


Spamming TP macros and coordinating SC/MB for every mob is tedious. Why make grinding more tedious? I'm not sure if you don't understand this concept since this is the third time I'm going to say it...

It will never be better to set up SC/WS than it is to spam. The faster mobs die, the faster you gain exp and that is the point. That's why it's called an exp party. When you're leveling you try to be as efficient as possible and SC/MB doesn't fit.

People didn't turn away from the mob because they had low hp, they turned because they didn't want to feed it TP. Procs didn't work if the mob was casting or using a TP move.

sandpark wrote:
Harder monsters requiring skill> chaining mobs you one or two shot. A grind isn't a grind if you share and work together while having fun.


There isn't any skill involved in meripo sandpark. Someone pulls mobs, you engage and use your WS as soon as your TP is ready. If you had good gear and used it correctly then you were successful. It doesn't matter how much fun you have, when you have to spend days doing the same thing over and over it's a grind.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#96 Jun 10 2012 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Viertel wrote:
Then Tanaka decided to actually put his full focus on FFXIV and temporarily handed the reigns over to someone infinitely more competent than he: Yoshida. Yoshida decided to take the game out of its stagnation and push it forward and actually give the players some power. Suddenly, there was actual progression towards your character's power level and not simply be at the mercy of the RNG gods on a piece of gear. There wasn't this massive need for huge 18+extrahealersormeatshields in order to clear the 'hardest' content.


Yoshi was never involved with FFXI. In fact, XIV is the first time he's worked on any Final Fantasy game.


What? I heard he has worked in every single FF ****** since the very first one, in fact local forum legend says: He was behind the idea of "Final Fantasy" etc etc.

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#97 Jun 10 2012 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Well your gonna grind regardless. Why not make that grind interesting stacking experience points instead of engage, afk, ws ignoring synergy type skillchains? Offer slower kills rewarding much larger xp equal to what you would if mobs were squishy.


Spamming TP macros and coordinating SC/MB for every mob is tedious. Why make grinding more tedious? I'm not sure if you don't understand this concept since this is the third time I'm going to say it...

It will never be better to set up SC/WS than it is to spam. The faster mobs die, the faster you gain exp and that is the point. That's why it's called an exp party. When you're leveling you try to be as efficient as possible and SC/MB doesn't fit.

People didn't turn away from the mob because they had low hp, they turned because they didn't want to feed it TP. Procs didn't work if the mob was casting or using a TP move.

sandpark wrote:
Harder monsters requiring skill> chaining mobs you one or two shot. A grind isn't a grind if you share and work together while having fun.


There isn't any skill involved in meripo sandpark. Someone pulls mobs, you engage and use your WS as soon as your TP is ready. If you had good gear and used it correctly then you were successful. It doesn't matter how much fun you have, when you have to spend days doing the same thing over and over it's a grind.


Some of the things you said make sense depending on the perspective . I practice guitar, piano, routing wood designs, watch independent films, etc. I'm enjoying those activities. Sometime I enjoy it so much that I lose track of time, especially in jam sessions. So repeating something over & over isn't neccesarily work. Sometimes I charge for my work, but if I really love the piece, I give it away for free. It doesn't feel like work to me. I don't understand why that same concept can't apply to games? Sure they need to slow your progress down to keep you subbed. But does it have to be so cut & dry grind?
#98 Jun 10 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
There isn't any skill involved in meripo sandpark. Someone pulls mobs, you engage and use your WS as soon as your TP is ready. If you had good gear and used it correctly then you were successful.


Playing the piano is just a matter of pressing keys in the right order; as long as you hit the proper keys at the proper times, you'll play the song, yet it's still a skill to do so.

The using it correctly is where skill comes into play. A good merit party requires some degree of attentiveness, a decent reaction speed, and the ability to multitask (especially if you happen to be the Bard of the party). You may scoff but not everyone could do it well or, as personal experiences attest, even with moderate consistency.
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#99 Jun 10 2012 at 6:09 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
There isn't any skill involved in meripo sandpark. Someone pulls mobs, you engage and use your WS as soon as your TP is ready. If you had good gear and used it correctly then you were successful.


Playing the piano is just a matter of pressing keys in the right order; as long as you hit the proper keys at the proper times, you'll play the song, yet it's still a skill to do so.

The using it correctly is where skill comes into play. A good merit party requires some degree of attentiveness, a decent reaction speed, and the ability to multitask (especially if you happen to be the Bard of the party). You may scoff but not everyone could do it well or, as personal experiences attest, even with moderate consistency.

Playing the piano is about like you say, reflex, coordination, & knowledge. Writing music showcases a different type of skill, knowledge, imagination, & harmony.

Many mmos require the first skill & it is a skill. Even rotation of skills requires some attention. I guess what I'm asking for is more harmonic based synergy than what we have now.
#100 Jun 10 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
There isn't any skill involved in meripo sandpark. Someone pulls mobs, you engage and use your WS as soon as your TP is ready. If you had good gear and used it correctly then you were successful.


Playing the piano is just a matter of pressing keys in the right order; as long as you hit the proper keys at the proper times, you'll play the song, yet it's still a skill to do so.

The using it correctly is where skill comes into play. A good merit party requires some degree of attentiveness, a decent reaction speed, and the ability to multitask (especially if you happen to be the Bard of the party). You may scoff but not everyone could do it well or, as personal experiences attest, even with moderate consistency.


Context my man. Using gear correctly means swapping to the appropriate gear for the appropriate actions. There is no skill involved in setting up a macro with gear swaps. ****, these days you don't even need to add that into macros.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting everyone was good at getting exp in meripo. We're talking about not adding the need to skillchain and magic burst to kill every mob you pull.




Edited, Jun 10th 2012 8:44pm by FilthMcNasty
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#101 Jun 10 2012 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Many mmos require the first skill & it is a skill. Even rotation of skills requires some attention. I guess what I'm asking for is more harmonic based synergy than what we have now.


Rotation of skills.

What rotation of skills?

This was FFXI: if you weren't a caster during that age you engaged a monster to auto-attack and hit a macro (or two if you weren't using Windower/Spellcast) and fired off a WS. Rinse and repeat until dead unless you needed shadows and then hit one OTHER button. If you were fortunate and actually had a buff macro through some abilities you'd hit that one every 3 or 5 minutes on the dot. Beyond that it was easier than any leveling in any other MMO I've ever seen it just bloody took forever to find a damned group and monster populations were limited as ****.

You're trying to make it seem like meriting/EXPing back in the day was some skillful adventure. You engaged the monster and auto-attacked your way to victory with a few presses of a single button.

Knock it off with the nostalgia.


Edited, Jun 10th 2012 9:04pm by Viertel
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