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Relic Weapon Revival (06/06/2012)Follow

#102 Jun 10 2012 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Many mmos require the first skill & it is a skill. Even rotation of skills requires some attention. I guess what I'm asking for is more harmonic based synergy than what we have now.


Well done SE, you've set the bar so low that people will resort to saying that paying attention is a skill. For all the **** I talk about them(most of it deserved), SE has found a way to feed people ******** and make them come back begging for seconds...
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#103 Jun 10 2012 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
I really wish people would just stop using the term skill for MMO's, there really isn't much involved at any given time, in any game. The only games that really require skill, are probably fighting games like Street Fighter IV and such if you get to a competitive level. Even people who say FFXI was tough back in the day, it wasn't, it required lots of people, and have those people read...(pay attention), then hit two buttons for a macro to stun, or heal, or...etc. Most RPG's heavily rely on gear, stats, not how skillfully you can maneuver your char around while hitting macros.

Let's just admit MMO's are really never hard, they just require time, patience and for you to be able to read and pay attention to what's going on.
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#104 Jun 11 2012 at 12:26 AM Rating: Default
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Paying attention, precognition, and execution is a skill. This is what seperates premier atheletes from the standard. Watch a basketball game, the players who become complacent or sloppy usually affect the teams performance. FFXI wasn't difficult, only the instances where they got cheesy & didn't let you alter or react to the outcome. In a party it requires some skill. Soloing is where it required more skill from the individual to defeat certain enemies. I'm not asking for the game to be more difficult, I'm asking for it to become more group synergized.

Most traditional turn based rpgs rely heavily on stats and gear. A good 3D space rpg relies on gear & stats but still asks you to maneuver that 3D space & react accordingly. If you say that this only applies to action rpgs. You are mistaken, once the rpg occupies a traversable 3D environmental battle, it has action elements.

If you watch youtube videos. Read comments from people who don't normally play mmos. They comment on people just standing still. Attribute that to the accepted latency applied to mmos if you want. But it is not set in stone. Many modern mmos are requiring you to take that third dimension into account as well. I suppose players who only want to half pay attention while multitasking facebook or tv. Will fight anything requiring more attention. It's suppose to be a game first, then an rpg, then a social avenue. Not the other way around.
#105 Jun 11 2012 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Paying attention... is a skill.


After giving it some thought, I'm inclined to agree with you on the basis that XI was about as engaging and entertaining while you were leveling up as watching paint dry. It did take some special focus to be able to pay attention, make sure you kept your shadows up(or not.. it's not like colibri or any merit camp mobs were dangerous) and select from one of the 7 macros you were required to keep track of. I guess we'll call that skill.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#106 Jun 11 2012 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Well during the weekend i tossed a large chunk of money, time, luck at the relic's as i have plenty of all those. Well, result is i am still same place as before i started... with that in mind, i stand firm with my view. This is how it should be, there should be low % of items out of reach for the masses and only few will obtain. I have personally opted not to bother with relic's any further at this point, but that does not mean i will be sitting and crying. I have simply concluded that working on other area's of my character are more important then a relic.... What i am failing to understand is why are people crying over the "relic's", and the acquisition of them. I am not seeing people cry over Luminary! Relic's are no different, having one will not really tilt the favor your way. Considering I still tank Ifrit in a rain deer suit, with a 99% success rate, it drops the value of most armor/weapons to dirt level.
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#107 Jun 11 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Considering I still tank Ifrit in a rain deer suit, with a 99% success rate, it drops the value of most armor/weapons to dirt level.


Ifrit was never a difficult encounter. If SE can figure out how to rework the battle and encounter mechanics so that the encounters are actually difficult, maybe you'd see the benefit of getting a weapon or piece of armor that would aid you greatly.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#108 Jun 11 2012 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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924 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
Well during the weekend i tossed a large chunk of money, time, luck at the relic's as i have plenty of all those. Well, result is i am still same place as before i started... with that in mind, i stand firm with my view. This is how it should be, there should be low % of items out of reach for the masses and only few will obtain. I have personally opted not to bother with relic's any further at this point, but that does not mean i will be sitting and crying. I have simply concluded that working on other area's of my character are more important then a relic.... What i am failing to understand is why are people crying over the "relic's", and the acquisition of them. I am not seeing people cry over Luminary! Relic's are no different, having one will not really tilt the favor your way. Considering I still tank Ifrit in a rain deer suit, with a 99% success rate, it drops the value of most armor/weapons to dirt level.


If you started the game now and didn't level before the achievements you could actually be 95% complete towards your crafting luminary items just by leveling 1-50. Gathering basically you need to level 3 times I order to get the one so that sucks >.>

I've complained in the forums and here but my only real complain is that the R.N.G. is too closely tied into this process. If it's going to cost me 50mil in double meld attempts than it should really cost the same for others.

I realize in XI currency prices have varied but that was over the course of years. Two friends have just finished all the quests related to relic for each of their chosen jobs. One got lucky and completed all the items in 1 week and only spent 4mil. The other has spent 60.

All that lead to was something thinking they were better than the other because he saved 56mil. They are now not friends. Stupid reason yes; but remember in the game people will also insult others or feel superior because they did it cheaper. At least in XI the only thing really was "time" because the more you played the faster you got it.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 10:22am by Elionara
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#109 Jun 11 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
Considering I still tank Ifrit in a rain deer suit, with a 99% success rate, it drops the value of most armor/weapons to dirt level.


Ifrit was never a difficult encounter. If SE can figure out how to rework the battle and encounter mechanics so that the encounters are actually difficult, maybe you'd see the benefit of getting a weapon or piece of armor that would aid you greatly.


I agree, so until such a time I'll keep chipping away at it, and even after they become a big deal I'll still be chipping away at it until i have it. This isn't a competition who's going to get it first.

Elionara wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
Well during the weekend i tossed a large chunk of money, time, luck at the relic's as i have plenty of all those. Well, result is i am still same place as before i started... with that in mind, i stand firm with my view. This is how it should be, there should be low % of items out of reach for the masses and only few will obtain. I have personally opted not to bother with relic's any further at this point, but that does not mean i will be sitting and crying. I have simply concluded that working on other area's of my character are more important then a relic.... What i am failing to understand is why are people crying over the "relic's", and the acquisition of them. I am not seeing people cry over Luminary! Relic's are no different, having one will not really tilt the favor your way. Considering I still tank Ifrit in a rain deer suit, with a 99% success rate, it drops the value of most armor/weapons to dirt level.


If you started the game now and didn't level before the achievements you could actually be 95% complete towards your crafting luminary items just by leveling 1-50. Gathering basically you need to level 3 times I order to get the one so that sucks >.>

I've complained in the forums and here but my only real complain is that the R.N.G. is too closely tied into this process. If it's going to cost me 50mil in double meld attempts than it should really cost the same for others.

I realize in XI currency prices have varied but that was over the course of years. Two friends have just finished all the quests related to relic for each of their chosen jobs. One got lucky and completed all the items in 1 week and only spent 4mil. The other has spent 60.

All that lead to was something thinking they were better than the other because he saved 56mil. They are now not friends. Stupid reason yes; but remember in the game people will also insult others or feel superior because they did it cheaper. At least in XI the only thing really was "time" because the more you played the faster you got it.


If i may I'll got down the list.
Well the reverse side is, if it cost me 500k to a mil to get the double meld why isn't it costing you the same? It' cost me 500k to get my weapon double melded... i gathered the item's, had weapons crafted, S.B. items for materia, had a +1 weapon double melded at the cost of 500k... If your friend needed 60mil, that's his choice to go that path.

If said a person chooses to cry that life isn't fair, that's a decision they need to live with. In XI it wasn't "time" only, i had my relic there in 1.2 years at cost 40mil, next person had it in 6months at cost 110mil, guy before took 2 years at cost 20mil. It's all in the ability to manage what's going around you, and not bite hook, line and sinker every time.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 2:21pm by TwiddleDee
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#110 Jun 11 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:

If i may I'll got down the list.
Well the reverse side is, if it cost me 500k to a mil to get the double meld why isn't it costing you the same? It' cost me 500k to get my weapon double melded... i gathered the item's, had weapons crafted, S.B. items for materia, had a +1 weapon double melded at the cost of 500k... If your friend needed 60mil, that's his choice to go that path.

If said a person chooses to cry that life isn't fair, that's a decision they need to live with. In XI it wasn't "time" only, i had my relic there in 1.2 years at cost 40mil, next person had it in 6months at cost 110mil, guy before took 2 years at cost 20mil. It's all in the ability to manage what's going around you, and not bite hook, line and sinker every time.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 2:21pm by TwiddleDee


Gathering mats to make weapon isn't hard. Gatherin mats to make the gear to wear to spirit bind in party and hope you get the exact materia you need isn't easy.

So I have to ask; how many gear sets did you need to go through and get 2 T4 materia of the exact type you needed?

I've tried 10 sets so far and have yet to get a single Heaven's Eye. More RNG for the win.

Edit: On a side note; if you got in on your first double-meld attempt congrats. I'm sitting on my 5th try now dam near broke. I tried the spirit bond route; not working out.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 11:27am by Elionara
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#111 Jun 11 2012 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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Elionara wrote:

Gathering mats to make weapon isn't hard. Gatherin mats to make the gear to wear to spirit bind in party and hope you get the exact materia you need isn't easy.

So I have to ask; how many gear sets did you need to go through and get 2 T4 materia of the exact type you needed?

I've tried 10 sets so far and have yet to get a single Heaven's Eye. More RNG for the win.

Edit: On a side note; if you got in on your first double-meld attempt congrats. I'm sitting on my 5th try now dam near broke. I tried the spirit bond route; not working out.



It took me close to 6 attempts, in total 5 weapons and 10 T4 material was lost. If i do the math that's 6 x 2.5mil on weapons, 12 x 1mil on materia, 12 x 10k on catalyst. So ~30mil all together. This is why i decided on not going for relic's, to much money to be made on the crafting/gathering side... I may have my x2 meld, but i have never had more then 5k grand company points, and hamlet is annoying so I'll just pile coin for now.
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#112 Jun 11 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I really wish people would just stop using the term skill for MMO's, there really isn't much involved at any given time, in any game. The only games that really require skill, are probably fighting games like Street Fighter IV and such if you get to a competitive level. Even people who say FFXI was tough back in the day, it wasn't, it required lots of people, and have those people read...(pay attention), then hit two buttons for a macro to stun, or heal, or...etc. Most RPG's heavily rely on gear, stats, not how skillfully you can maneuver your char around while hitting macros.

Let's just admit MMO's are really never hard, they just require time, patience and for you to be able to read and pay attention to what's going on.


MMO'S do require skill, sure some dont (FFXI,FFXIV, EQ,) but that is a problem with the company rather than with the player base, WOW requires skill if even at regular raid runs (Ulduar comes to mind) and heroic no doubt, even today with the level cap raised and new gear, people still wipe at heroic myrmidon etc etc. To say no MMO requires skill is stupid, idiotic and just blatantly false, for example try and play tera w/o no movement skills or positioning, and good luck to You.

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#113 Jun 11 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I really wish people would just stop using the term skill for MMO's, there really isn't much involved at any given time, in any game. The only games that really require skill, are probably fighting games like Street Fighter IV and such if you get to a competitive level. Even people who say FFXI was tough back in the day, it wasn't, it required lots of people, and have those people read...(pay attention), then hit two buttons for a macro to stun, or heal, or...etc. Most RPG's heavily rely on gear, stats, not how skillfully you can maneuver your char around while hitting macros.

Let's just admit MMO's are really never hard, they just require time, patience and for you to be able to read and pay attention to what's going on.


MMO'S do require skill, sure some dont (FFXI,FFXIV, EQ,) but that is a problem with the company rather than with the player base, WOW requires skill if even at regular raid runs (Ulduar comes to mind) and heroic no doubt, even today with the level cap raised and new gear, people still wipe at heroic myrmidon etc etc. To say no MMO requires skill is stupid, idiotic and just blatantly false, for example try and play tera w/o no movement skills or positioning, and good luck to You.



Go kill AV in xi at 75 level cap, and tell me it needs no skill.
Go do one round of Veil of Alaris in EQ, and tell me it need no skill.
(I got nothing for xiv lol irony, though am sure something is coming)
WoW needed skill until Cata was launched after that gong show
TERA miss on block or dodge you are paste under foot

And so on, all MMO's require some skill, some event's more then others for sure. But saying only the game's you like need skill is just ignorance... A blind man can tell you the relic's need no skill, they were implemented as a way for gil to pass hands, for time to sunk, and so on.
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#114 Jun 11 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Paying attention... is a skill.


After giving it some thought, I'm inclined to agree with you on the basis that XI was about as engaging and entertaining while you were leveling up as watching paint dry. It did take some special focus to be able to pay attention, make sure you kept your shadows up(or not.. it's not like colibri or any merit camp mobs were dangerous) and select from one of the 7 macros you were required to keep track of. I guess we'll call that skill.


I would LOVE to see you win Ifrit, Moogle, Garuda, AV, CC, or the newest GC storyline BCNM fight standing still and not paying attention LAWL

If you could live stream this so we can all see you pull this off, it would make mine and everyone else's day b(^.^)d
#115 Jun 11 2012 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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PalidorCarbuncle wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Paying attention... is a skill.


After giving it some thought, I'm inclined to agree with you on the basis that XI was about as engaging and entertaining while you were leveling up as watching paint dry. It did take some special focus to be able to pay attention, make sure you kept your shadows up(or not.. it's not like colibri or any merit camp mobs were dangerous) and select from one of the 7 macros you were required to keep track of. I guess we'll call that skill.


I would LOVE to see you win Ifrit, Moogle, Garuda, AV, CC, or the newest GC storyline BCNM fight standing still and not paying attention LAWL

If you could live stream this so we can all see you pull this off, it would make mine and everyone else's day b(^.^)d


To be fair, Filth was talking about leveling, not boss fights. And in the not-so-distant past of FFXIV's powerleveling craze, his assessment is spot-on, because you really did level by standing still and not paying attention.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 6:17pm by Xoie
#116 Jun 11 2012 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I really wish people would just stop using the term skill for MMO's, there really isn't much involved at any given time, in any game. The only games that really require skill, are probably fighting games like Street Fighter IV and such if you get to a competitive level. Even people who say FFXI was tough back in the day, it wasn't, it required lots of people, and have those people read...(pay attention), then hit two buttons for a macro to stun, or heal, or...etc. Most RPG's heavily rely on gear, stats, not how skillfully you can maneuver your char around while hitting macros.

Let's just admit MMO's are really never hard, they just require time, patience and for you to be able to read and pay attention to what's going on.


MMO'S do require skill, sure some dont (FFXI,FFXIV, EQ,) but that is a problem with the company rather than with the player base, WOW requires skill if even at regular raid runs (Ulduar comes to mind) and heroic no doubt, even today with the level cap raised and new gear, people still wipe at heroic myrmidon etc etc. To say no MMO requires skill is stupid, idiotic and just blatantly false, for example try and play tera w/o no movement skills or positioning, and good luck to You.



Go kill AV in xi at 75 level cap, and tell me it needs no skill.
Go do one round of Veil of Alaris in EQ, and tell me it need no skill.
(I got nothing for xiv lol irony, though am sure something is coming)
WoW needed skill until Cata was launched after that gong show
TERA miss on block or dodge you are paste under foot

And so on, all MMO's require some skill, some event's more then others for sure. But saying only the game's you like need skill is just ignorance... A blind man can tell you the relic's need no skill, they were implemented as a way for gil to pass hands, for time to sunk, and so on.


Lmao! AV was not killed(legally) at 75 cap, because it was never meant to be killed at that level, it was a stupid design move by SE that gave them a **** lot of negativity and showed how dumb their design team was, i mean really boss fights that take up to 18 Hours ? REALLY ? Imagine blizzard had decided to release the lich king at original release, with the stats he had in Wotlk, could it have been killed ? Nope! Would that mean players where unskilled ? Nope! It means blizzard is stupid for releasing content that cant be defeated with the current progression Path. AV at level 75 dint require skills, it required a time machine, to travel to the future, gear yourself with future content and abilities, and travel back in time to defeat him. that is not a Skill Fight.

As for EQ in the 2011 who cares, about time they put some skill fights in that game, i was talking about when EQ was relevant, you know a decade ago, as for Cata, i would have agreed if you had said Wotlk, since that was the less skill involved expansion out of them all, Cata actually made raiding hard again, that's why they lost so many subs, kids from the wotlk era tho it was gonna be cake again, and got whopped in first tier raids of cata :/

I agree with you on tera tho. almost cruel sometimes.
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#117 Jun 11 2012 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Go kill AV in xi at 75 level cap, and tell me it needs no skill.
Go do one round of Veil of Alaris in EQ, and tell me it need no skill.
(I got nothing for xiv lol irony, though am sure something is coming)
WoW needed skill until Cata was launched after that gong show
TERA miss on block or dodge you are paste under foot

And so on, all MMO's require some skill, some event's more then others for sure. But saying only the game's you like need skill is just ignorance... A blind man can tell you the relic's need no skill, they were implemented as a way for gil to pass hands, for time to sunk, and so on.


You didn't, nor do you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone... who beat AV at 75 legitimately because it was a gimmick fight that was never meant to be beaten. It never was and to this day, never has been beaten at legit alliance of level 75 characters.

The argument is that XI and XIV don't take skill to defeat encounters, just paying attention and using the obvious abilities as needed. Even if paying attention was the only measure of skill, nearly all other MMOs take more focus to be successful.

PalidorCarbuncle wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
After giving it some thought, I'm inclined to agree with you on the basis that XI was about as engaging and entertaining while you were leveling up as watching paint dry. It did take some special focus to be able to pay attention, make sure you kept your shadows up(or not.. it's not like colibri or any merit camp mobs were dangerous) and select from one of the 7 macros you were required to keep track of. I guess we'll call that skill.

I would LOVE to see you win Ifrit, Moogle, Garuda, AV, CC, or the newest GC storyline BCNM fight standing still and not paying attention LAWL

If you could live stream this so we can all see you pull this off, it would make mine and everyone else's day b(^.^)d

Why do people keep using AV as if it's some sort of measure of skill? It's still undefeated at it's intended level because of poor(or perhaps intended) design.The post you quoted is regarding merit groups and not boss encounters.

I don't play XIV because it isn't worth the time or money right now so you'll get no streams from me, sorry. The funny thing is, you couldn't be bothered to pay enough attention to the post you quoted which is about merit groups and not bosses, but I bet you'd have no issues defeating any of the other bosses you listed because it takes that little focus.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#118 Jun 11 2012 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
I've seen the streams of Ifrit, it's again about paying attention. Oh, he's doing this, everyone but tank move here! Ok, now he's doing this, now move here! It's all it is, and spamming the same abilities over and over.
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#119 Jun 11 2012 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I've seen the streams of Ifrit, it's again about paying attention. Oh, he's doing this, everyone but tank move here! Ok, now he's doing this, now move here! It's all it is, and spamming the same abilities over and over.


Pretty much. I remember watching DoctorMog's streams of his groups attempts. After seeing them run through it twice I'd seen everything I needed to see to understand how the battle worked and what needed to be done to defeat it. The rest is just execution...

Don't stand in fire.
Move away from the direction he's facing before he charges.
Zerg spikes to reduce damage.
???
Prof... aww fu¢k, screwed by RNG drop rate again!?

To be honest, the mechanics in most MMOs(XI excluded) are similar, but in every other MMO it requires more attention, quicker reaction time and more communication on the part of the group. Call it skill or don't, whatever you call it though; SE's MMOs require much less to be successful.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#120 Jun 12 2012 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE's MMOs require much less to be successful.


Thinking back to those level capped BCNMs, I think you get a better sense of the challenge of FFXI as it was originally intended. You could be the most skillful players at your job, but it wasn't a ticket to walk into a random BCNM with no plan and still expect to win. You'd get raped every time. Part of the tactics demanded the right "tool" for the job, finding the mob's weakness and exploiting it. Only then did you really stand a chance.

But what ruins it is once someone has that winning strat worked out, and tells all their friends, there's little difficulty in winning as long as you follow the "recipe" someone already worked out for you. And because the entrance requirements were hard to obtain, you were motivated to make the process as mind-numbingly easy to win as you could make it on yourself. So you're never really challenged to take what you've learned and apply it to a situation you couldn't prepare for beforehand.

I think that's what really dumbs down the challenge considerably. You could say it was skill if you need to solve a "random puzzle" that didn't have the answer scribbled on a wiki cheat sheet. It's actually impressive when you didn't really know what you'd be up against until it was starting you in the face and you had to work out the road to victory then and there.
#121 Jun 12 2012 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
You could be the most skillful players at your job, but it wasn't a ticket to walk into a random BCNM with no plan and still expect to win. You'd get raped every time. Part of the tactics demanded the right "tool" for the job, finding the mob's weakness and exploiting it. Only then did you really stand a chance.


When you put it that way no, there's no chance to win. No one does that though and the problem with SE's design again shines through here. There were several of these fights that were near impossible without top-notch gear and the ideal setup. I don't recall any of them requiring you to find the mobs weakness outside of sleep resist or the 60 BC with the ghosts(though you had a choice of weakness).

Too often the fights required you to keep everything asleep(or kite) and zerg. Nothing is challenging when players are able to master the 3 techniques needed to defeat nearly every encounter in the game. The 'recipe' as you called it wasn't really anything special. There were few rare occasions where there was a creative strategy employed. Tank and spank, kite or bind/nuke/sleep/nuke worked on almost everything.

The problem with experimenting is that it rarely worked and always had a high cost. It's not like the seals were easily farmed. Try to imagine what the price of Utsu: Ni, Blitz Ring, Peacock Charm etc. would all be if instead of having a choice, you were thrown into a random battlefield...


Edited, Jun 12th 2012 3:20am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#122 Jun 12 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
You could be the most skillful players at your job, but it wasn't a ticket to walk into a random BCNM with no plan and still expect to win. You'd get raped every time. Part of the tactics demanded the right "tool" for the job, finding the mob's weakness and exploiting it. Only then did you really stand a chance.


When you put it that way no, there's no chance to win. No one does that though and the problem with SE's design again shines through here. There were several of these fights that were near impossible without top-notch gear and the ideal setup. I don't recall any of them requiring you to find the mobs weakness outside of sleep resist or the 60 BC with the ghosts(though you had a choice of weakness).

Too often the fights required you to keep everything asleep(or kite) and zerg. Nothing is challenging when players are able to master the 3 techniques needed to defeat nearly every encounter in the game. The 'recipe' as you called it wasn't really anything special. There were few rare occasions where there was a creative strategy employed. Tank and spank, kite or bind/nuke/sleep/nuke worked on almost everything.

The problem with experimenting is that it rarely worked and always had a high cost. It's not like the seals were easily farmed. Try to imagine what the price of Utsu: Ni, Blitz Ring, Peacock Charm etc. would all be if instead of having a choice, you were thrown into a random battlefield...


Edited, Jun 12th 2012 3:20am by FilthMcNasty

Filth you're agreeing with me on there not being enough unique enemy characteristics globally. Please stop, I'm beginning to like you.

I think incapacitations was originally implemented to facilitate finding enemy weaknesses. We're not doing any real damage captain. Break the horn while the rhino is charging men. It's horn is protected until that moment. The enemy has diamond skin on, how do we break through it? It requires us to do a three step skillchain to demolish the barrier.

I think the active/passive mode was originally implemented to prevent the kite/dot/sleep OP kills that were apparent in XI. That is also why there weren't many passive mp skills at launch and there was the active forms of regaining mp. I guess players didn't mind an Op possibility as long as they could have passive traits. I suppose SE could accomplish the same effect by giving enemies more unique characteristics and AI?

Edited, Jun 12th 2012 10:27am by sandpark
#123 Jun 12 2012 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand the drama here.

Don't we want unattainable content? I played XI for 8 years and never even thought of getting an Relic/Mythic/Empy weapon. It wasn't for me, I'm not that hardcore.

This didn't bother me at all, and I liked having that disparity between players. I loved that feeling when you realize one of the chosen people joined your random merit party.

If this looks like a lot of work, good. It should be. To me, this looks attainable. A long term goal while I seek all the short term goals. Even better, it doesn't require 1 person to benefit from many other players work, like Dynamis or Empy weapons. We can do hamlets together and not hear "everyone pass your seals to XXX, he funded this run."
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#124 Jun 12 2012 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
You could be the most skillful players at your job, but it wasn't a ticket to walk into a random BCNM with no plan and still expect to win. You'd get raped every time. Part of the tactics demanded the right "tool" for the job, finding the mob's weakness and exploiting it. Only then did you really stand a chance.


When you put it that way no, there's no chance to win. No one does that though and the problem with SE's design again shines through here. There were several of these fights that were near impossible without top-notch gear and the ideal setup. I don't recall any of them requiring you to find the mobs weakness outside of sleep resist or the 60 BC with the ghosts(though you had a choice of weakness).

Too often the fights required you to keep everything asleep(or kite) and zerg. Nothing is challenging when players are able to master the 3 techniques needed to defeat nearly every encounter in the game. The 'recipe' as you called it wasn't really anything special. There were few rare occasions where there was a creative strategy employed. Tank and spank, kite or bind/nuke/sleep/nuke worked on almost everything.

The problem with experimenting is that it rarely worked and always had a high cost. It's not like the seals were easily farmed. Try to imagine what the price of Utsu: Ni, Blitz Ring, Peacock Charm etc. would all be if instead of having a choice, you were thrown into a random battlefield...


Edited, Jun 12th 2012 3:20am by FilthMcNasty

I think that's the biggest problem with SE's current fight design is that they don't fully test against zerg. It's obvious from their attitude, and the way that they talk about how difficult their fights are, that the QA battle testers either REALLY suck, or have absolutely no imagination as to how to exploit a fight. And the net result is, the fight goes out with this glaring gaps that, once found turn into a zerg-fest. And the funny part is, they are almost always the same gaps.

I think Garuda is a perfect example of that. If they actually had a skilled group of black mages when they tested it, they should have seen the flaw in her attack. They should have also seen the over-all unbalanced nature of black mage in that fight.

And so, they got everyone's hopes up with this Watch to first win, and then fizzle... She was exploited in less than a day.

The worst part is, there is no sign of this problem getting corrected. Maybe when they get the test server up and going, there will be a chance for real players to help raise the bar on combat mechanics, and I really don't like bashing testers, but, yeah, SE battle testers are definitely one area that they still need to work on (which is funny since it hasn't really come up directly in any of the surveys or really in the official forums.
#125 Jun 12 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
You could be the most skillful players at your job, but it wasn't a ticket to walk into a random BCNM with no plan and still expect to win. You'd get raped every time. Part of the tactics demanded the right "tool" for the job, finding the mob's weakness and exploiting it. Only then did you really stand a chance.


When you put it that way no, there's no chance to win. No one does that though and the problem with SE's design again shines through here. There were several of these fights that were near impossible without top-notch gear and the ideal setup. I don't recall any of them requiring you to find the mobs weakness outside of sleep resist or the 60 BC with the ghosts(though you had a choice of weakness).

Too often the fights required you to keep everything asleep(or kite) and zerg. Nothing is challenging when players are able to master the 3 techniques needed to defeat nearly every encounter in the game. The 'recipe' as you called it wasn't really anything special. There were few rare occasions where there was a creative strategy employed. Tank and spank, kite or bind/nuke/sleep/nuke worked on almost everything.

The problem with experimenting is that it rarely worked and always had a high cost. It's not like the seals were easily farmed. Try to imagine what the price of Utsu: Ni, Blitz Ring, Peacock Charm etc. would all be if instead of having a choice, you were thrown into a random battlefield...


Edited, Jun 12th 2012 3:20am by FilthMcNasty

I think that's the biggest problem with SE's current fight design is that they don't fully test against zerg. It's obvious from their attitude, and the way that they talk about how difficult their fights are, that the QA battle testers either REALLY suck, or have absolutely no imagination as to how to exploit a fight. And the net result is, the fight goes out with this glaring gaps that, once found turn into a zerg-fest. And the funny part is, they are almost always the same gaps.

I think Garuda is a perfect example of that. If they actually had a skilled group of black mages when they tested it, they should have seen the flaw in her attack. They should have also seen the over-all unbalanced nature of black mage in that fight.

And so, they got everyone's hopes up with this Watch to first win, and then fizzle... She was exploited in less than a day.

The worst part is, there is no sign of this problem getting corrected. Maybe when they get the test server up and going, there will be a chance for real players to help raise the bar on combat mechanics, and I really don't like bashing testers, but, yeah, SE battle testers are definitely one area that they still need to work on (which is funny since it hasn't really come up directly in any of the surveys or really in the official forums.


Amen brotha!
#126 Jun 12 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
I don't understand the drama here.

Don't we want unattainable content? I played XI for 8 years and never even thought of getting an Relic/Mythic/Empy weapon. It wasn't for me, I'm not that hardcore.

This didn't bother me at all, and I liked having that disparity between players. I loved that feeling when you realize one of the chosen people joined your random merit party.

If this looks like a lot of work, good. It should be. To me, this looks attainable. A long term goal while I seek all the short term goals. Even better, it doesn't require 1 person to benefit from many other players work, like Dynamis or Empy weapons. We can do hamlets together and not hear "everyone pass your seals to XXX, he funded this run."


I agree with this.

Players that believe that getting the relics is worth the sacrifice on their time, effort, and money will get the reward. Its as simple as that. Those that don't have the free time and money and aren't willing to put forth the required effort will simply not be worthy enough to receive the reward. I'm tired of people complaining about something being to time consuming. If you believe that then clearly the reward isn't good enough for you. I'm positive that I will never get a relic weapon (because i want to stay married). In the same respect I'll never be a billionaire in real life (probably because i spend to much time gaming).

As far as the RNG is concerned. I'm all for RNG. Back in the day I played PSO. Which is a nothing but grind for drops game, and i cant explain the satisfaction of running through the exact same areas over and over and over again for hundreds of hours looking for specific drops and then finally seeing those words pop up on the screen. That feeling is sublime.
People hating on the RNG are just people that haven't gotten their drops yet. To you i say, Keep at it, if you do eventually you will find what you are looking for and it will give you pride that you did not give up.
#127 Jun 12 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
...and i cant explain the satisfaction of running through the exact same areas over and over and over again for hundreds of hours (...) that feeling is sublime.

Allow me to question the number of people who share your definition of sublime.
#128 Jun 12 2012 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xineohpzero wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I don't understand the drama here.

Don't we want unattainable content? I played XI for 8 years and never even thought of getting an Relic/Mythic/Empy weapon. It wasn't for me, I'm not that hardcore.

This didn't bother me at all, and I liked having that disparity between players. I loved that feeling when you realize one of the chosen people joined your random merit party.

If this looks like a lot of work, good. It should be. To me, this looks attainable. A long term goal while I seek all the short term goals. Even better, it doesn't require 1 person to benefit from many other players work, like Dynamis or Empy weapons. We can do hamlets together and not hear "everyone pass your seals to XXX, he funded this run."


I agree with this.

Players that believe that getting the relics is worth the sacrifice on their time, effort, and money will get the reward. Its as simple as that. Those that don't have the free time and money and aren't willing to put forth the required effort will simply not be worthy enough to receive the reward. I'm tired of people complaining about something being to time consuming. If you believe that then clearly the reward isn't good enough for you. I'm positive that I will never get a relic weapon (because i want to stay married). In the same respect I'll never be a billionaire in real life (probably because i spend to much time gaming).

As far as the RNG is concerned. I'm all for RNG. Back in the day I played PSO. Which is a nothing but grind for drops game, and i cant explain the satisfaction of running through the exact same areas over and over and over again for hundreds of hours looking for specific drops and then finally seeing those words pop up on the screen. That feeling is sublime.
People hating on the RNG are just people that haven't gotten their drops yet. To you i say, Keep at it, if you do eventually you will find what you are looking for and it will give you pride that you did not give up.


When the hardest part of an encounter or content is RNG..... Something is wrong with your game, again this is 2012 not 1998, the day's of grinding mindlessly for weeks for a drop are over, please for the love of god, update that mentality or this game will never reach past 50K users.
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#129 Jun 12 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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P.S.:
If SE's definition of good endgame dynamics is doing the same fight over and over for hundreds of hours and content
that is available only for a 3% "dedicated and entitled" (read: poor sob) elite: **** you SE. You deserve to die.
It's 2012, I play games to have fun. Dinosaurs died out for a reason. Evolve, adapt, or die.
#130 Jun 12 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm with you Rin. So much. TBH, I am not even "done" all the things I'd like to do in Abyssea but seeing their "new" content go in the exact opposite direction makes it so I don't even feel like finishing the well designed content, cause it just seems like a carrot on a stick leading me over a precipice.

The same will apply to XIV. Even if I like the way some other content works, if I see that they are cheaping out on content by going back to their old stand-by of "boring content that you do 10 thousand times over several years" - I won't bother - because what it means is that instead of working to please the hardcore players through having a lot of content, they will just string people along for years with nothing like they did (and still are doing) with XI. Which means that for people like me there will be nothing at all to do after the initial burst of content is done. Blech. No thanks.

I'm fine with some grinding but I want there to be LOTS of content. And putting in sinks like this "relic" crap is a good indication that their master plan involves stringing out subs for years on nothing but thin gruel. Mark my words, if people don't say, loud and clear "this kind of design is unacceptable" then they will think it is okay for everything and this game will fail because, frankly, there aren't that many old school hardcore masochists out there who aren't busy working on their 99 mythic in XI
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#131 Jun 12 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
I'm with you Rin. So much. TBH, I am not even "done" all the things I'd like to do in Abyssea but seeing their "new" content go in the exact opposite direction makes it so I don't even feel like finishing the well designed content, cause it just seems like a carrot on a stick leading me over a precipice.

The same will apply to XIV. Even if I like the way some other content works, if I see that they are cheaping out on content by going back to their old stand-by of "boring content that you do 10 thousand times over several years" - I won't bother - because what it means is that instead of working to please the hardcore players through having a lot of content, they will just string people along for years with nothing like they did (and still are doing) with XI. Which means that for people like me there will be nothing at all to do after the initial burst of content is done. Blech. No thanks.

I'm fine with some grinding but I want there to be LOTS of content. And putting in sinks like this "relic" crap is a good indication that their master plan involves stringing out subs for years on nothing but thin gruel. Mark my words, if people don't say, loud and clear "this kind of design is unacceptable" then they will think it is okay for everything and this game will fail because, frankly, there aren't that many old school hardcore masochists out there who aren't busy working on their 99 mythic in XI

I just thought of an idea. How about when SE reaches the point of introducing a merit system. They take a page from Abyssea. Instead of all merits being earned through experience points. They do a blend of experience points & a karma system?

1. The drop rates are still pretty rare on endgame content.
2. They offer a form of steady tangible progress towards most drops.
3. You earn karma merits for repeating any PvE event with multiple clears.

These PvE events include expansion packs, dungeons, artifact quests, hnm, etc. The solo or self merits come via limit points & the merits earned via group content come via group clears. There will be less grind repeat for gear. There would still be a behind the scenes merit grind you get for repeating many things & maybe in the process. People always have a better chance at finding people to clear milestones?
#132 Jun 12 2012 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I like your idea, not bad at all.
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#133 Jun 12 2012 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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If the relic is costing you truckloads of gil then it's working as intended.

Something needed to be done about the upcoming 2.0 economy and the relative worthlessness of the overabundant gil. Consistently repeatable levequests with huge rewards were to blame, and anything that functions as a massive gil-sink is just what FFXIV needs (from an economic perspective), lest the game become almost completely unworkable for everyone who hasn't been at the uppermost echelons for the past year. Players are here complaining about losing money, but the mere fact that they were able to gamble 1,000,000 or 10,000,000 or 25,000,000 gil strongly suggests that such an over-saturation exists.

Everyone wants to keep their pre-2.0 progress, yet they also want the game to be fixed and for new players to eventually play it. These things are most difficult to reconcile.


Edited, Jun 13th 2012 12:08am by KaneKitty
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#134 Jun 12 2012 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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They could wipe 90% of current players gil & leave all other accomplishments intact at 2.0. That would be a slippery slope to pull off & not have some angry players. A large gil sink can certainly lower global wealth some I agree. If they get really deep with the free company building projects, that could be a good gil sink. Building & maintaining ships, estates, guild halls, guild airships, fortress fortifications, etc, etc.
#135 Jun 12 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Filth you're agreeing with me on there not being enough unique enemy characteristics globally. Please stop, I'm beginning to like you.


The thing is, this is the exact reason why we disagree on these games taking 'skill'. SE's battle system in both games is the barrier that keeps them from developing the exact content you mention.

Louiscool wrote:
Don't we want unattainable content? I played XI for 8 years and never even thought of getting an Relic/Mythic/Empy weapon. It wasn't for me, I'm not that hardcore.


I guess it depends. I would consider myself a hardcore player of XI. It took several years for me to attain a relic. These days you can do it in a matter of months farming all by yourself. The funny thing is while most hardcore players would like to have their hard fought gear remain unattainable for most, I wish they'd nerfed it sooner. In the same vein...

Rinsui wrote:
If SE's definition of good endgame dynamics is doing the same fight over and over for hundreds of hours and content
that is available only for a 3% "dedicated and entitled" (read: poor sob) elite: @#%^ you SE. You deserve to die.
It's 2012, I play games to have fun. Dinosaurs died out for a reason. Evolve, adapt, or die.


This is the reason why I always fly the progression flag. Don't create static content aimed at hardcore, normal and casual players. Build content that scales over time to ease all of your playerbase into it. Why spend years developing content that the majority will never see or participate in? Example: WoW...

New expansion comes out with overtuned raids > Hardcore players snatch up a few pieces of gear first and start to progress while normal players struggle and casuals are content to soak up token gear here and there > Content is adjusted after a little while > Hardcore players are now starting to get full clears on normal raids and farming to start hardmodes, normal players are pushing for full clears in normal raids and casuals start getting their feet wet in pick up groups > Content is again adjusted slightly > Hardcore players are starting to clear hardmode content, normal players are farming normal content to start hardmodes and casuals are starting to get wins in normal raids... progress and participation.

This just feels right. Hardcore players get first crack, normal players get to play through all the content and casuals get a taste of victory as well. You scale your content so that everyone eventually gets to experience it even if they aren't clearing on a regular basis. Say what you want about WoW and Blizz, but they have worked out(for the most part) what the capability of their playerbase is and this is no small feat considering how many people play. They overtune and scale the difficulty down so that eventually everyone gets the full experience. Even if you hate it with a passion, you have to appreciate that.

KaneKitty wrote:
Something needed to be done about the upcoming 2.0 economy and the relative worthlessness of the overabundant gil.


This only applies to the current playerbase which we should all hope will be the minority once 2.0 goes live. It sets any prospective new player back even further than they would have been had it just been a 30 month headstart and is another huge reason why I support a fresh start for everyone. Even if you don't want to reroll, you have to understand that this is a large factor in why nearly none of the new players come 2.0 will be rolling on established servers.

Edited, Jun 13th 2012 1:42am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#136 Jun 13 2012 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Even if you don't want to reroll, you have to understand that this is a large factor in why nearly none of the new players come 2.0 will be rolling on established servers.

Sssshhhh. Some players on the main forums who kept p(l)aying just to be at an advantage when 2.0 launches recently seem to have realized that as well. And boy are they ******* Some even make up contrived arguments for why new players should never be allowed to have their own fresh starter servers:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/46741-Fresh-Start-will-ruin-2.0

Poor sobs. While they will be confined to their golden prison servers where copper ore goes for 10k, I will happily pay 500g for a second-hand chainmail. Oh the joys of starting fresh.
#137 Jun 13 2012 at 3:35 AM Rating: Good
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Copper ore goes for like 70 gil at a NPC, so you might as well sell all the ores from that NPC to the market wards and become multi millionaire!!1
#138 Jun 13 2012 at 5:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, yes. But that was hardly my point. A bad example, perhaps.
Abstracted, I wanted to say: rich people on a rich server are just as rich as poor people on a poor server when it comes to inter-person buying power.
You having 20 times the gil means nothing when prices are 20 times as high.
#139 Jun 13 2012 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Solonuke wrote:
Copper ore goes for like 70 gil at a NPC, so you might as well sell all the ores from that NPC to the market wards and become multi millionaire!!1


so what you're saying is there is no reward for being a gatherer. Awesome.

Maybe instead of bringing in relic requirements that people starting at 2.0 will not even want to touch, they increase the price of crap from npcs until 2.0 starts as a gil sink? It isn't like there are more than 10 new players at any one time.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#140 Jun 13 2012 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Even if you don't want to reroll, you have to understand that this is a large factor in why nearly none of the new players come 2.0 will be rolling on established servers.

Sssshhhh. Some players on the main forums who kept p(l)aying just to be at an advantage when 2.0 launches recently seem to have realized that as well. And boy are they ******* Some even make up contrived arguments for why new players should never be allowed to have their own fresh starter servers:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/46741-Fresh-Start-will-ruin-2.0

Poor sobs. While they will be confined to their golden prison servers where copper ore goes for 10k, I will happily pay 500g for a second-hand chainmail. Oh the joys of starting fresh.


I can't really feel bad for them either. If there are thousands of players who will stick around and pay for their opportunity to be ahead, there are tens of thousands of players who won't join simply because they don't want to start off years behind. Thanks for the link^^
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#141 Jun 13 2012 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, good to see the official forums is still ruled by sneering *********
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#142 Jun 13 2012 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wish this forum was more lively because the Official ones are a real Mynock's Nest.

Even more criminal than the requirements of the Relics are the crafters charging 3 MIL for a BASE weapon. I guess I could just have it crafted but I'm really hoping they announce even more impossible requirements so the price will drop and I can actually start it...
____________________________


#143 Jun 14 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
So you don't want to have the best stuff the game you pay for offers? Not attacking you, just questioning.

You realize that the relic weapons don't actually exist, right? They're pixels on a screen. You're paying for an experience -- amusement, diversion, companionship, challenge. If the game started you at level 50 in every job with every item, would you think that you got what you paid for?

These weapons represent new activities, not new items. If the activity isn't fun for you, then that's a problem. If there aren't enough fun activities for you to do in the entire game to keep you active and amused, then that's a problem. But, the length or difficulty of any given activity or goal is not a problem -- you want more things to do, not less.

Amen!!
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