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E3 2012: The Plan for Final Fantasy XIV on PlayStation 3Follow

#1 Jun 07 2012 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hi All,

It's been a very, very long time since I have posted on these forums, but I saw this article on IGN today and it dosen't appear to have been posted on this forum just yet:

E3 2012: The Plan for Final Fantasy XIV on PlayStation 3
http://au.ign.com/articles/2012/06/07/e3-2012-the-plan-for-final-fantasy-xiv-on-playstation-3
Square Enix outlines its vision for Version 2.0, and talks about plans for its launch on PC and PlayStation 3.

Quote:
Talking to Final Fantasy XIV producer and director Naoki Yoshida is really refreshing. He’s so obviously eager to please fans, willing to admit past mistakes and to clearly lay out how his team at Square Enix is going to right the wrongs of its big budget MMO and successfully transition to Version 2.0, which is essentially meant to be a full relaunch of the game, currently scheduled for this coming winter, which could mean late 2012 or early 2013.

In addition to updating the current version of the game with content, the team has been busy building a new graphics engine that’s said to be better optimized, ensuring all sorts of new content is ready for launch, and completely reworking the user interface. “We believe that having a polished, easy-to-use, stress-free interface is one of the most important things,” said Yoshida. “So we’re going to spend up to the last minute polishing this, making sure it’s something that the players want.”

The PC and PlayStation 3 versions of the game will feature different interfaces, both tailored to the platforms and the different control inputs. One of the first things Yoshida and team decided to do with the interface was look to the global standard. “We looked to World of Warcraft. What they have there is pretty much what most players are used to. We’re using that as a base.”

When Version 2.0 launches, Yoshida and team want those familiar with World of Warcraft to be able to transition into Final Fantasy XIV without a lot of hassle. “A lot of the Japanese development team members aren’t used to playing MMOs. They always focused on consoles. It’s easy for them to make a game that feels good on a console but not a mouse and keyboard.” In order for the team to learn, Yoshida directed them to play a number of Western MMOs to get a sense of how they should refocus their efforts.

“You can go around E3 and see all these different first-person shooters. But when you pick up the controller, whether it be a Call of Duty or a Halo, you pretty much know how it’s going to feel,” said Yoshida. “You know this is going to be your strafe, this is going to be your fire, this is going to be your aiming. We want it to be the same for MMO players.”

Throughout all this research for creating an updated interface for Final Fantasy XIV on PC, Square Enix has been busy refining its PS3 interface as well. “We have put a lot of effort into also designing a specific UI for the PlayStation 3 users. We have a special team set up that’s making the UI and control interface for PlayStation 3, using that know-how that Japanese developers have creating games for consoles and transferring that into an MMO where people from PS3 and PC can play together.” Though you’ll see the same content, it won’t look quite at good on PS3. “The draw distance and the textures will be, because of memory issues [on PlayStation 3] lowered a bit,” said Yoshida.

With Version 2.0 and the in-development console version, the gameplay mechanics of Final Fantasy XIV will also be changed a bit. The existing battle regimen system, which allows for players to essentially combo attacks, will be made more responsive, making it easier for players to group up and chain offensive skills to take down targets.

Chocobos will also play a much larger role. They’ll no longer just be for travel, but can be raised and actually brought into battle to fight alongside you and make soloing a little bit easier. While raising the Chocobos, you’ll be able to customize their battle role, so they can become casters or up-close fighters. It'll also be possible to store them in stables attached to player-owned housing, where you can keep multiple types of raised Chocobos.

Perhaps most interesting is what Square Enix is doing with summons. Instead of giving every player the ability to summon primals like Ifrit or Shiva, there will only be one Ifrit per server. “The players will get together in their Free Companies [guilds] and they will fight Ifrit. If they defeat him, they will get the opportunity to summon him once. That Free Company will get to decide where and when to use him. Then Ifrit goes out to another place in the world for other people to go get him, so it’s like this competition between people in the world. This won’t be instanced, this will be public content, so anyone in the world can do it.” Until Ifrit is summoned, no other player group will be able to summon him. When Ifrit is actually brought into a fight it seems like nearly everyone in the server will know, because the skies will turn red. Then once the skies clear, you’ll know Ifrit is again available to defeat and acquire. “The whole world is involved in the summoning of these monsters.”

So what’s the timeline on all this? First, in August, Square Enix will ramp up more detailed reveals about what’s to come in Final Fantasy XIV. Then in September, there’ll be an alpha test, and after feedback is collected and incorporated into the game, a beta test version will roll out first for PC, then for PlayStation 3. “We want to make sure this time we take a lot of time to listen to feedback from users during this beta test and implement as much of it as possible before the release,” said Yoshida. “We want to make sure we have a massive amount of content at launch. We don’t want to go into launch without enough to do. So it’s going to be building up that content base and getting this feedback in. That might end up pushing the release back a little. It’s all going to depend on that.”

Expect many more details about Square Enix’s plans for rebooting Final Fantasy XIV on IGN in the near future.


I particularly LOVE this:

Quote:
Instead of giving every player the ability to summon primals like Ifrit or Shiva, there will only be one Ifrit per server. “The players will get together in their Free Companies [guilds] and they will fight Ifrit. If they defeat him, they will get the opportunity to summon him once. That Free Company will get to decide where and when to use him. Then Ifrit goes out to another place in the world for other people to go get him, so it’s like this competition between people in the world. This won’t be instanced, this will be public content, so anyone in the world can do it.” Until Ifrit is summoned, no other player group will be able to summon him. When Ifrit is actually brought into a fight it seems like nearly everyone in the server will know, because the skies will turn red. Then once the skies clear, you’ll know Ifrit is again available to defeat and acquire. “The whole world is involved in the summoning of these monsters.”


Edited, Jun 8th 2012 12:23pm by Astarataru
#2 Jun 07 2012 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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I was happy that IGN cast FFXIV in a good light; it was one of the few things that actually gave me legitimate hope for the success of 2.0.
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#3 Jun 08 2012 at 4:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Astarataru wrote:
I particularly LOVE this:

Quote:
Instead of giving every player the ability to summon primals like Ifrit or Shiva, there will only be one Ifrit per server. “The players will get together in their Free Companies [guilds] and they will fight Ifrit. If they defeat him, they will get the opportunity to summon him once. That Free Company will get to decide where and when to use him. Then Ifrit goes out to another place in the world for other people to go get him, so it’s like this competition between people in the world. This won’t be instanced, this will be public content, so anyone in the world can do it.” Until Ifrit is summoned, no other player group will be able to summon him.


So if a guild defeats Ifrit you have to wait for them to use it in battle for it to be available for use again? I don't think I like that mechanic. Nope, I'm sure I don't like it.
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#4 Jun 08 2012 at 5:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
So if a guild defeats Ifrit you have to wait for them to use it in battle for it to be available for use again? I don't think I like that mechanic. Nope, I'm sure I don't like it.

I certainly hope it has some countdown feature where if he isn't used after a certain amount of time, he automatically "gets free" because I could see some people trying to hold him.
I also wonder how someone will go about deciding when and where to use it.. Will the system have some sort of a mechanism requiring multiple members of the FC to allow it to be used "Sir, we are at launch, turn your key!" or will it be a certain person who has the sole control over launch/no launch status.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 7:55am by MrTalos
#5 Jun 08 2012 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
So if a guild defeats Ifrit you have to wait for them to use it in battle for it to be available for use again? I don't think I like that mechanic. Nope, I'm sure I don't like it.

I certainly hope it has some countdown feature where if he isn't used after a certain amount of time, he automatically "gets free" because I could see some people trying to hold him.
I also wonder how someone will go about deciding when and where to use it.. Will the system have some sort of a mechanism requiring multiple members of the FC to allow it to be used "Sir, we are at launch, turn your key!" or will it be a certain person who has the sole control over launch/no launch status.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 7:55am by MrTalos


They've already said there will be, they were throwing around a 2 week max... but have said it's very much in planning and subject to change and further tweaks upon implementation.
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#6 Jun 08 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Perhaps most interesting is what Square Enix is doing with summons. Instead of giving every player the ability to summon primals like Ifrit or Shiva, there will only be one Ifrit per server. “The players will get together in their Free Companies [guilds] and they will fight Ifrit. If they defeat him, they will get the opportunity to summon him once. That Free Company will get to decide where and when to use him. Then Ifrit goes out to another place in the world for other people to go get him, so it’s like this competition between people in the world. This won’t be instanced, this will be public content, so anyone in the world can do it.” Until Ifrit is summoned, no other player group will be able to summon him. When Ifrit is actually brought into a fight it seems like nearly everyone in the server will know, because the skies will turn red. Then once the skies clear, you’ll know Ifrit is again available to defeat and acquire. “The whole world is involved in the summoning of these monsters.”

I am most interested in what type of content free companies will be using primals in? Pvp? Massive public events? Where?

What is the cap on free company members to be able to use the primal? Say a free company has 32 members, they obtain Shiva. If a group of seven members out of the company summon a primal. If the remaining 28 members were offline, they wouldn't get to see the fruits of their labor. That sucks.

Instead of giving every player the ability to summon primals like Ifrit or Shiva, there will only be one Ifrit per server. “The players will get together in their Free Companies [guilds] and they will fight Ifrit. If they defeat him, they will get the opportunity to summon him once. That Free Company will get to decide where and when to use him. Then Ifrit goes out to another place in the world for other people to go get him, so it’s like this competition between people in the world. This won’t be instanced, this will be public content, so anyone in the world can do it.” Until Ifrit is summoned, no other player group will be able to summon him. When Ifrit is actually brought into a fight it seems like nearly everyone in the server will know, because the skies will turn red. Then once the skies clear, you’ll know Ifrit is again available to defeat and acquire. “The whole world is involved in the summoning of these monsters.”

The final implementation will see revisions I'm sure. Perhaps a 72 hour spawn window. If a primal is aquired, the free company has 24 hour lease on the primal. The sky changes red for one hour. In that hour, that primal can be summoned every 15 minutes by that free company. When the hour expires, the skies clear. Whether the free company summons that primal or not in the 24 lease. The primal breaks free and changes the sky regardless for one hour to give the server a cue to it.

Imo this would make primals more prevalent & something to most likely be seen, not missed by the server.
#7 Jun 08 2012 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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I can't help but notice the forewarning of "pushing the release date back a little",but all in all I love what I'm hearing so far.
#8 Jun 08 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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That primal system seems to suggest the game won't have a smn job which is too bad. Also, I hope PC players will have the option of using console controls - I MUCH prefer using a controller - in fact it is one of the few things I really like about XI and XIV over other games. I know that it has some limitations but I get pain in my hands from mouse and keyboard controls (likely because I work at a desk job and I am always using mouse and keyboard all day) - gamepad is easier on the hands.

I am glad they are making an interface for PC players that will appeal to more people, I just don't want to be forced to use it.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 11:12am by Olorinus
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#9 Jun 08 2012 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
That primal system seems to suggest the game won't have a smn job which is too bad. Also, I hope PC players will have the option of using console controls - I MUCH prefer using a controller - in fact it is one of the few things I really like about XI and XIV over other games. I know that it has some limitations but I get pain in my hands from mouse and keyboard controls (likely because I work at a desk job and I am always using mouse and keyboard all day) - gamepad is easier on the hands.

I am glad they are making an interface for PC players that will appeal to more people, I just don't want to be forced to use it.


I wouldn't take it that hard. Pet jobs have shown to be the most popular according to the player poll (and I thought ninja would clinch it easy). Just because super-bad Ifrit can't be summoned the FFXI way doesn't mean you can't have a mini-Ifrit, or the zodiac-based espers like Belias. I wouldn't write off summoners just yet.
#10 Jun 08 2012 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Belias can go kick rocks with the rest of his fake espers friends, i want IFRIT!! And not the wolf *** version they been doing since X, i want the big bad *** looking one we use to have back in the day.
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#11 Jun 08 2012 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know what else will happen with the summons battles?

Hardcore linkshells will time it down to the millisecond for when the Summon is available to fight, thus resulting in a monopoly for linkshells that have more time than casual players. In addition, there will also be items that drop that are 1% or lower drop rates (again, see RNG) further pushing these hardcore linkshells into monopolizing these Summons.

What we will end up seeing is a repeat of the Land Gods from FFXI. Remember how those turned out? NOT GOOD..... oh unless you had a bot and had a linkshell that camped it every single day :-P {Life, Can I have it?}

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 3:55pm by PalidorCarbuncle
#12 Jun 08 2012 at 11:28 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
When Version 2.0 launches, Yoshida and team want those familiar with World of Warcraft to be able to transition into Final Fantasy XIV without a lot of hassle


this one comment ruined the rest of the information for me. No offense to anyone who played/loved WoW, but i played ff11 and fended as far away from games like this as possible for various reasons. I am sure a lot of the guys here also stayed in ff11 for equally reasons like myself and I was hoping SE will finally get the idea of copying WoW mechanics and ideas and go back to what they were good at and thats making SE kind of games not another copy and paste or anything in that matter of WoW again.

I'm all for casuallising the game a bit ( not that it needs at the moment ) but making the game another "talk to npc with icon on top of the head.....go kill 10 monsters....receive 100 levels for no effort/boring chores ( a bit exaggerated lol but you guys get my idea ) instances/solo easy mode fest will ruin the game more than it is already.
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#13 Jun 09 2012 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
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When Version 2.0 launches, Yoshida and team want those familiar with World of Warcraft to be able to transition into Final Fantasy XIV without a lot of hassle


this one comment ruined the rest of the information for me. No offense to anyone who played/loved WoW, but i played ff11 and fended as far away from games like this as possible for various reasons. I am sure a lot of the guys here also stayed in ff11 for equally reasons like myself and I was hoping SE will finally get the idea of copying WoW mechanics and ideas and go back to what they were good at and thats making SE kind of games not another copy and paste or anything in that matter of WoW again.

I'm all for casuallising the game a bit ( not that it needs at the moment ) but making the game another "talk to npc with icon on top of the head.....go kill 10 monsters....receive 100 levels for no effort/boring chores ( a bit exaggerated lol but you guys get my idea ) instances/solo easy mode fest will ruin the game more than it is already.


Because FFXI/XIV was so much different ? There is little to no difference in an NPC having a ! over his head, than going into a wiki and looking for information as we all did in FFXI/XIV. SE making the effort for wow players to transition into FFXIV is a good strategy, that means we will get a bette UI etc etc.

As far as wow being easy mode, you dont know what you are talking about, wow was, is and will always be harder at end game, than anything XI will ever be, unless you think wasting time=skills
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#14 Jun 09 2012 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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The ! over heads of npcs & looking up standard quest info on wiki are both wrong. The ! removes all the sense of immersion or discovery in exploring the stories. Is it convienient? Absolutely. It's like going on an african safari having an arrow pointing out where the lions or other animals are exactly located. On the other hand XI only provided brief & vague descriptions of where to go next. Usually you had to visit a wiki to advance your quest line. That doesn't cut it either.

A detailed journal is the perfect amount of bread crumbs providing enough details to get through the objectives without placing big signs everywhere. Retaining that sense of immersion or discovery, that you are on a journey & piece together the mystery. Here are some possible solutions but SE could elaborate further.

Name of Initial quest
Name of starter npc- General Location- Picture of npc & surrounding location
Description of current quest objective, pretty detailed
General Location or description of how to obtain the requested items
If there is a sequential leg following the journal auto updates the new information

It's basically an in game wiki journal omitting strategies or two page long descriptions. The arrows pointing you in a general direction is fine. In a supermarket, I would love an arrow pointing me directly to the iodized salt & not just the general aisle. But if I went on a wild game hunting trip. I don't want an arrow pointing out where the animals are hiding. Part of the thrill of the hunt is tracking the prey through cunning & instinct. Remove the thrill of the hunt & the game may as well be in a zoo for me to hunt. A general description of what animals I may find in a particular area is sufficient enough.
#15 Jun 09 2012 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
No offense to anyone who played/loved WoW, but i played ff11 and fended as far away from games like this as possible for various reasons.


You don't want a popular game that revolutionizes the industry? Haters gonna hate, but there are clear reasons this game still carries millions of subs.I don't want the things I don't like about WoW in any other game either, but letting a simple comment ruin the most exciting info anyone has seen about XIV since 2010? Sensitive much?
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#16 Jun 09 2012 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
The ! over heads of npcs & looking up standard quest info on wiki are both wrong. The ! removes all the sense of immersion or discovery in exploring the stories. Is it convienient? Absolutely. It's like going on an african safari having an arrow pointing out where the lions or other animals are exactly located. On the other hand XI only provided brief & vague descriptions of where to go next. Usually you had to visit a wiki to advance your quest line. That doesn't cut it either.


I don't think you can complain about a quest ! "breaking immersion" when every PC, NPC, and mob has a name floating over their head...

In fact, you can tell what linkshell a PC is in, if they're disconnecting, if they're selling something, if they're seeking repairs, if they want a party, if they're participating in a quest. You can tell what level a mob is by looking over its head, if it's aggressive; you can even put a little icon over its head, "Attack this one first!" But being able to tell that an NPC has a quest for you from a distance, that's going too far, that is what ruins all sense of immersion for you?

Edited, Jun 9th 2012 3:07pm by Xoie
#17 Jun 09 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately since my PC blew up I am waiting for this to come to PS3. Never was a PC gamer but wanted to play this pretty bad so I bought a buget gaming PC for this, as you can see it didn't last long. Hopefully it'll be worth the wait.
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#18 Jun 09 2012 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
Quote:
When Version 2.0 launches, Yoshida and team want those familiar with World of Warcraft to be able to transition into Final Fantasy XIV without a lot of hassle


this one comment ruined the rest of the information for me. No offense to anyone who played/loved WoW, but i played ff11 and fended as far away from games like this as possible for various reasons. I am sure a lot of the guys here also stayed in ff11 for equally reasons like myself and I was hoping SE will finally get the idea of copying WoW mechanics and ideas and go back to what they were good at and thats making SE kind of games not another copy and paste or anything in that matter of WoW again.

I'm all for casuallising the game a bit ( not that it needs at the moment ) but making the game another "talk to npc with icon on top of the head.....go kill 10 monsters....receive 100 levels for no effort/boring chores ( a bit exaggerated lol but you guys get my idea ) instances/solo easy mode fest will ruin the game more than it is already.


Yes, because heaven forbid an MMO from SE comes out that has a UI that doesn't look like it was made in 1989 for the original NES (and navigates like it as well). You are the type of player Tanaka loved: "YES!"-men that told him he did no wrong, and boy did FFXI do a *LOT* wrong.

The internet taking off killed immersion in MMOs; the ! above an NPC's head (nevermind that their actual NAMES are displayed like someone else stated) didn't have a damned thing to do with it. The only thing FFXI had over WoW in terms of "immersion" is that it forced you to watch the cutscenes. If FFXI simply had the quest text appearing in the chat-log (or scripted like a lot of events are) this wouldn't even be a discussion.
#19 Jun 09 2012 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
sandpark wrote:
The ! over heads of npcs & looking up standard quest info on wiki are both wrong. The ! removes all the sense of immersion or discovery in exploring the stories. Is it convienient? Absolutely. It's like going on an african safari having an arrow pointing out where the lions or other animals are exactly located. On the other hand XI only provided brief & vague descriptions of where to go next. Usually you had to visit a wiki to advance your quest line. That doesn't cut it either.


I don't think you can complain about a quest ! "breaking immersion" when every PC, NPC, and mob has a name floating over their head...

In fact, you can tell what linkshell a PC is in, if they're disconnecting, if they're selling something, if they're seeking repairs, if they want a party, if they're participating in a quest. You can tell what level a mob is by looking over its head, if it's aggressive; you can even put a little icon over its head, "Attack this one first!" But being able to tell that an NPC has a quest for you from a distance, that's going too far, that is what ruins all sense of immersion for you?

Edited, Jun 9th 2012 3:07pm by Xoie

Oh but I can. Am I right, not to some but I am to others. The linkshell a PC is in, who is selling or needing repairs, who is seeking a group is all logical things that a multiplayer game entails, communication is vital. I also think they went overboard with the icons over mobs. You wouldn't know the exact details of a monster you kill in rl unless you read about it or killed one yourself. Trust me, the surprise you get when your face to face with a wild animal is far different from reading about it. You may ask what does rl have to do with a game? Immersion is the suspension of belief. We as humans tend to believe in what we can touch, taste, smell, hear, and see. Is it realistic to go hunting for wild game knowing their exact location? No, therefore how can it suspend your belief?

People who see the games for what they are physically never understand immersion. They are right at the base level. But immersion is about forgetting the reality of what your doing, becoming absorbed by your imagination in a magical world. Gamey aspects littered everywhere constantly remind you of the reality. I play games for fun to escape the real world issues for a brief moment. This goes for movies and games too.

A liken the ! to finding a lost friend in the mall. If I had a human gps tracker, I would find him fast & conveniently. But that might cause me to miss out on something in the journey of finding him. Maybe you could have met your future wife or bumped into another friend who you haven't seen in ages?
#20 Jun 09 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Oh but I can. Am I right, not to some but I am to others. The linkshell a PC is in, who is selling or needing repairs, who is seeking a group is all logical things that a multiplayer game entails, communication is vital. I also think they went overboard with the icons over mobs. You wouldn't know the exact details of a monster you kill in rl unless you read about it or killed one yourself. Trust me, the surprise you get when your face to face with a wild animal is far different from reading about it. You may ask what does rl have to do with a game? Immersion is the suspension of belief. We as humans tend to believe in what we can touch, taste, smell, hear, and see. Is it realistic to go hunting for wild game knowing their exact location? No, therefore how can it suspend your belief?

People who see the games for what they are physically never understand immersion. They are right at the base level. But immersion is about forgetting the reality of what your doing, becoming absorbed by your imagination in a magical world. Gamey aspects littered everywhere constantly remind you of the reality. I play games for fun to escape the real world issues for a brief moment. This goes for movies and games too.

A liken the ! to finding a lost friend in the mall. If I had a human gps tracker, I would find him fast & conveniently. But that might cause me to miss out on something in the journey of finding him. Maybe you could have met your future wife or bumped into another friend who you haven't seen in ages?


Suspension of disbelief is a lot easier than you give credit for. You probably had completely forgotten to mention how names floating over everyone's head is a problem because you've gotten used to it, like all the other icons that share the same space. This is just one thing most people don't think is a big deal because it's ubiquitous in MMOs now; it's easily ignored as one of those things you'd expect to see in the type of game you're playing.

Edited, Jun 9th 2012 3:53pm by Xoie
#21 Jun 09 2012 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Suspension of disbelief is a lot easier than you give credit for. You probably had completely forgotten to mention how names floating over everyone's head is a problem because you've gotten used to it, like all the other icons that share the same space. This is just one thing most people don't think is a big deal because it's ubiquitous in MMOs now; it's easily ignored as one of those things you'd expect to see in the type of game you're playing.

Edited, Jun 9th 2012 3:53pm by Xoie

Names are not gamey. Everyone in this real world has a name. They are just listed over npcs heads because SE doesn't have the budget or want you to have to converse with every npc to know their name. It has nothing to do in context with arrows or other icons. Names are needed in game and rl because the more people or npcs you meet. The harder it is to remember a face or name.

I point you to Dark Souls. It still had a form of communication between players. It had no names over npcs heads, no extravagant scripted quest lines, no enemy gauging icons over enemies heads, & no heavy cutscenes or excessive story. It has earned the reputation of being one of the most immersive & challenging rpgs ever. I never had to look up anything but the endgame stuff. I became more immersed in this rpg than I did in Skyrim or any other rpg this generation. Just because it is common to see games gamefied, doesn't mean it has to be done that way. Sometimes less is more.

You interpreted the game in your own way.
#22 Jun 09 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Suspension of disbelief is a lot easier than you give credit for. You probably had completely forgotten to mention how names floating over everyone's head is a problem because you've gotten used to it, like all the other icons that share the same space. This is just one thing most people don't think is a big deal because it's ubiquitous in MMOs now; it's easily ignored as one of those things you'd expect to see in the type of game you're playing.

Edited, Jun 9th 2012 3:53pm by Xoie

Names are not gamey. Everyone in this real world has a name. They are just listed over npcs heads because SE doesn't have the budget or want you to have to converse with every npc to know their name. It has nothing to do in context with arrows or other icons. Names are needed in game and rl because the more people or npcs you meet. The harder it is to remember a face or name.

I point you to Dark Souls. It still had a form of communication between players. It had no names over npcs heads, no extravagant scripted quest lines, no enemy gauging icons over enemies heads, & no heavy cutscenes or excessive story. It has earned the reputation of being one of the most immersive & challenging rpgs ever. I never had to look up anything but the endgame stuff. I became more immersed in this rpg than I did in Skyrim or any other rpg this generation. Just because it is common to see games gamefied, doesn't mean it has to be done that way. Sometimes less is more.

You interpreted the game in your own way.


Now you're tripping up over yourself again. Phantoms did have names over their heads in Dark Souls, along with their health meter. Also, but for one exception, your invader's names are flashed on the screen, even the NPC ones. That usually doesn't happen when someone comes to visit IRL... So potential immersion breaks are there, but you learn to suspend your disbelief; you forget they're there, just like you forgot they were there in Dark Souls.

It's no different in an MMO. In a few years, no one will even be having this discussion over the ! icon, especially since it's almost a decade old now. No one will remember a time it wasn't there.
#23 Jun 09 2012 at 2:44 PM Rating: Default
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I remember there some occasions of names being displayed. But again, I said names are not gamey. If someone comes over to my house, they don't need a nametag. They can state their name through voice or hand signs if they are mute. Health bars are a UI thing. I never argued that some info is needed to understand a game. I said sometimes too much info is given. People will forget things, whether the arrows are there or not. That doesn't change the fact that a game is immersive or not.

When augmented reality glasses become the norm. You won't have to talk to people to know their personal achievements, records, likes, or dislikes. You just look at them and have the glasses subtract all the time that would have required though provoking questions. Maybe over the course of 200 years. We won't need to actually discover things for ourselves outside. We'll just simulate everything. Because we like convienience.
#24 Jun 09 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Immersion should never take priority over Gameplay/Fun!
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#25 Jun 09 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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For a lot of us, the immersion is the fun.
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#26 Jun 09 2012 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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to bad the lot of you dont outnumber the lot of people who would rather have better game mechanics at the cost of a little immersion :/
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#27 Jun 09 2012 at 5:58 PM Rating: Default
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An rpg, adventure , or horror game is all about immersion. While some considered the classic RE or FF better than the newer versions. The newer versions had better gamey mechanics such as QTE, twitch, and forced action. It came at a cost of immersion. FFXIII streamlined the entire combat menus from 100s of times cycling menus to an easy to use interface. Idc if people who prefer better gamey mechanics outnumber me. They can stick to WoW or Rift or the multiple copy pasta WoW clones(Copying the hotbar UI is great since WoW perfected that, however GW2 is mixing it up with segmented & dynamic hotbars). If SE continues down the path of ignoring immersion & depth to satisfy the ***** immersion people, insert WoWesque. I will find a new company to spend my money on.

I want to play a game that doesn't assume we are stupid or can't interpret things on our own at all. A game that doesn't play itself. Or drag me along on a rail by a leash. Guided but not babied while making choices. I can't stand Fable because of it's quests. The detective quests of Secret World seem interesting. But that payment model kills that for me. I want to play in an FF universe if possible. The live trigger system of XIII-2 showed promise of them experimenting with choices. Had it been combined with AtE. I would have thoroughly enjoyed learning or changing my companions backstory/development.

#28Theonehio, Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 7:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Relying on Add-ons = Skill?
#29 Jun 09 2012 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Ostia wrote:

As far as wow being easy mode, you dont know what you are talking about, wow was, is and will always be harder at end game, than anything XI will ever be, unless you think wasting time=skills


Relying on Add-ons = Skill?

Ok then now we know. 'Wasting time = Skill' and 'Relying on Add-ons = Skill'.


Name me one add-on that buff your stats and is an "Insta win buttom"
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#30 Jun 09 2012 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
The ! over heads of npcs & looking up standard quest info on wiki are both wrong. The ! removes all the sense of immersion or discovery in exploring the stories. Is it convienient? Absolutely. It's like going on an african safari having an arrow pointing out where the lions or other animals are exactly located. On the other hand XI only provided brief & vague descriptions of where to go next. Usually you had to visit a wiki to advance your quest line. That doesn't cut it either.


sandpark wrote:
An rpg, adventure , or horror game is all about immersion. While some considered the classic RE or FF better than the newer versions. The newer versions had better gamey mechanics such as QTE, twitch, and forced action. It came at a cost of immersion. FFXIII streamlined the entire combat menus from 100s of times cycling menus to an easy to use interface. Idc if people who prefer better gamey mechanics outnumber me. They can stick to WoW or Rift or the multiple copy pasta WoW clones(Copying the hotbar UI is great since WoW perfected that, however GW2 is mixing it up with segmented & dynamic hotbars). If SE continues down the path of ignoring immersion & depth to satisfy the ***** immersion people, insert WoWesque. I will find a new company to spend my money on.


Just say "I don't like the exclamation marks over NPC heads because WoW uses it and I don't like WoW ." You don't need to hide it behind the veil of immersion especially since you admit that you're okay with floating names above heads.
#31 Jun 10 2012 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Relying on Add-ons = Skill?

Ok then now we know. 'Wasting time = Skill' and 'Relying on Add-ons = Skill'.

Bah. What an unqualified nonsense again.

The add-ons are hardly responsible for the fact that WoW boss encounters are dynamic
and generally well-executed fights that require quite a bit of coordination, teamwork and
training. Or do you honestly want to tell me that FF XIV's job-stacking speedrun grinds
are what you expect from a 2012 game?

That one backfired pretty hard. You may like WoW or not; but even Yoshi is smart enough
to admit the things decade-old WoW is years ahead of FF XIV 1.xx.
#32 Jun 10 2012 at 5:38 AM Rating: Default
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mbub wrote:

Just say "I don't like the exclamation marks over NPC heads because WoW uses it and I don't like WoW ." You don't need to hide it behind the veil of immersion especially since you admit that you're okay with floating names above heads.


Getting rid of floating names for NPCs and making important NPCs memorable enough that their names are worth remembering would actually be a good idea. Normal RPGs don't have them, so why MMOs?

It goes without saying I don't like exclamation marks...

Edited, Jun 10th 2012 7:43am by Dizmo
#33 Jun 10 2012 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Immersion should never take priority over Gameplay/Fun!

Immersion should have no effect on gameplay/fun.They're two different things, and they're for different player types. Explorers, meet achievers. (See Bartle test)

There's nothing inherently fun* about running from npc to npc to see if their dialogue has changed since last time because magically your reputation went up one level (Hello FFXI)

There's nothing inherently fun about running all over uldah and glueing your eyes to the minimap to find all the (!) and then spam enter ignoring the story, checking the journal to know the destination and just running there without any idea why you're doing it.

Can't we have a middle-ground somewhere? I really really hate the "Quest helper" and exclamation mark found in WoW (and now nearly every MMO) because it means any NPC without a question mark isn't worth my time. And those with them, I can safely click "accept", conveniently always located at the same spot for every quest, and then run to the glowing arrow to kill 10 whatever for 10 drops.

On the flipside, there's nothing fun about having to play FFXI with a wiki open on my 2nd computer just to know who gives quests and what's the complicated story arc I have to complete before he'll talk to me.

---
*I was actually positively surprised when I saw that NPCs in the adventurer guilds changed some of their lines to mention Dalamud. While hunting for quests this way sucks, it is very fun that NPCs have things to say that doesn't have any impact on XP, items or other reward. Now, find other games where you can talk to every single NPC you see and have a few lines of text.
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#34 Jun 10 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Docent42 wrote:
Can't we have a middle-ground somewhere? I really really hate the "Quest helper" and exclamation mark found in WoW (and now nearly every MMO) because it means any NPC without a question mark isn't worth my time.


You realize that the quest help can be disabled, right? If you want 'immersion' by having to talk to every NPC you see then you can have it. The only middle ground is the actual quest dialogue that can suggest or hint at where to go and who to talk to.

Personally, I don't use the word immersion in this way. For me, it can be summed up with the 3 P's. Purpose, personalize and progression.

Create quests that tie in to a general theme or advance a story that will give your character purpose. Why am I here? What is going on? What can I do? Where do I go from here? These and other questions all lend to immersion when you can answer them by completing whatever tasks you are given through questing.

Make the quests personal in that your rewards are something catered to your class or something along those lines. A quest that rewards a pair of shoes will provide you with something tailored to your class and armor proficiency(cloth for casters or plate for heavy DD ect.).

Finally, make the story or quests in an area progressive. An example would be taking a quest to extinguish the local village. When you first arrive you see the homes burning, but after you complete the quest to extinguish the flames you see villagers working to repair their burned homes. You pick up another quest to go logging and gather materials to help the effort and after you complete that quest the village is populated with people talking, children playing and possibly some new vendor or quest giver for you to progress. It's a nice touch that has been used in WoW with instancing and makes you feel like things you do during your adventuring have an impact.


Edited, Jun 10th 2012 1:16pm by FilthMcNasty
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#35 Jun 10 2012 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Docent42 wrote:
Can't we have a middle-ground somewhere? I really really hate the "Quest helper" and exclamation mark found in WoW (and now nearly every MMO) because it means any NPC without a question mark isn't worth my time.


You realize that the quest help can be disabled, right? If you want 'immersion' by having to talk to every NPC you see then you can have it. The only middle ground is the actual quest dialogue that can suggest or hint at where to go and who to talk to.

Personally, I don't use the word immersion in this way. For me, it can be summed up with the 3 P's. Purpose, personalize and progression.

Create quests that tie in to a general theme or advance a story that will give your character purpose. Why am I here? What is going on? What can I do? Where do I go from here? These and other questions all lend to immersion when you can answer them by completing whatever tasks you are given through questing.

Make the quests personal in that your rewards are something catered to your class or something along those lines. A quest that rewards a pair of shoes will provide you with something tailored to your class and armor proficiency(cloth for casters or plate for heavy DD ect.).

Finally, make the story or quests in an area progressive. An example would be taking a quest to extinguish the local village. When you first arrive you see the homes burning, but after you complete the quest to extinguish the flames you see villagers working to repair their burned homes. You pick up another quest to go logging and gather materials to help the effort and after you complete that quest the village is populated with people talking, children playing and possibly some new vendor or quest giver for you to progress. It's a nice touch that has been used in WoW with instancing and makes you feel like things you do during your adventuring have an impact.

GW2 is doing what you described in the last paragraph. Only they take it a step further. While scouts may say a fire is happening. There is no npc to flag it. You either react or not & it affects your personal story. No exclamation marks found, it happens dynamically aka immersive.




Edited, Jun 10th 2012 1:40pm by sandpark
#36 Jun 10 2012 at 12:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dizmo wrote:
mbub wrote:

Just say "I don't like the exclamation marks over NPC heads because WoW uses it and I don't like WoW ." You don't need to hide it behind the veil of immersion especially since you admit that you're okay with floating names above heads.


Getting rid of floating names for NPCs and making important NPCs memorable enough that their names are worth remembering would actually be a good idea. Normal RPGs don't have them, so why MMOs?

It goes without saying I don't like exclamation marks...


You can haz!

/names off

But it's not really the problem, is it? It's those other players out there, with their linkshells and their grinding who are having a blast looking at names and exclamation marks floating over everyone's head like it isn't a big deal. You tell them about the "/names off" command so they'll be properly immersed but they just laugh and ask you not to tell them how to enjoy their game. You'll show 'em. You'll convince Yoshi to remove floating names and symbols... FOREVER! Then who'll be laughing? Mwuahahaha!

(Seriously, why does "immersion" always seem to involve forcing other players to play in a way they don't want to? Especially when you can already get exactly what you want; it's just most people prefer to play with different options.)
#37 Jun 10 2012 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
GW2 is doing what you described in the last paragraph. Only they take it a step further. While scouts may say a fire is happening. There is no npc to flag it. You either react or not & it affects your personal story. No exclamation marks found, it happens dynamically aka immersive.


Sort of. GW2's dynamic events just removes the need to initiate the quest. This is a good and bad thing because it's a nice touch that these events happen on their own, but there are times where you're left waiting for something to start.

A few things I didn't like about these events:

One is that I would get credit for just performing simple things like putting out a fire or disarming some trap. I didn't really have to kill mobs or even damage them for that matter to get credit for completion.

Another thing I didn't like was that you get the action, but nearly none of the story with these types of events. So this group of mobs tries to raid a town to kidnap someone... why are they after that person? Because there is no quest log or interaction with an NPC to provide you with the lead-in, you're sort of left to make it up on your own.





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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#38 Jun 10 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
mbub wrote:

Just say "I don't like the exclamation marks over NPC heads because WoW uses it and I don't like WoW ." You don't need to hide it behind the veil of immersion especially since you admit that you're okay with floating names above heads.


Getting rid of floating names for NPCs and making important NPCs memorable enough that their names are worth remembering would actually be a good idea. Normal RPGs don't have them, so why MMOs?

It goes without saying I don't like exclamation marks...


You can haz!

/names off


I should have realised. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound that I wanted it to changed for everyone.

Edited, Jun 10th 2012 3:53pm by Dizmo
#39 Jun 10 2012 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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If i have to spend 30 minutes walking around in Uldah looking for that NPC that might give me a quest, in order to go out and enjoy killing 20 crabs, because somebody wants the experience of looking for it himself and finding him, then it's a problem, because they can just disable the quest helper etc etc.

Most of the things that the "Immersion crowd" complain about, can be fixed by a simple click, like "OMG Why can people teleport everywhere it ruins my immersion" Well how about you and your party walk to X place and let everybody else teleport to their hearts content.

The same issue always pops up with the LFG system "Well it will ruin the immersion and community" All the while, all you have to do, is just not use it, that simple, why force the ones that want to play like that, to play how you play, when you can still play that way ?
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#40 Jun 10 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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@Ostia

While I'm with you on the matter per se (I also like quest markers and teleports), he's right in one point:
he is *not* free to play the game with names off or without teleporting. In a MMO with certain possibilities,
unwritten rules of how to do things evolve. Going against those rules will lead to irritation among your fellow
players, and ultimately fewer people to play with. Because your pick-up party leader will usually not wait for
you to catch up running when the group teleports from Ul'dah to Gridania.

It's the same with the best EXP/hour and dungeon speedruns. Sure, you can make a static with like-minded guys.
But most people will stick to the maximum of efficiency the game provides. For a good reason, since the content
is designed with that efficiency in mind. That isn't to say we like speedruns or crappy drop rates; but the game
balance is tuned that way, and unless you want to finish your quests sometime in 2015, you pretty much have to
adapt.

There's countless similar examples. Take the "freedom" to mix abilities from different jobs vs playing just the job
you prefer. It's not freedom at all when the game is balanced in a way that you are seriously hampered without
certain cross-class skills (e.g. Black Mage / Chameleon). Freedom in a MMO does not stem from the theoretical
possibility of choice; it stems from the balance between the choices available.


So no, you are not free to play the game as you like, as certain features imply their use. A common misconception.
I am not on his side, but I fully understand his standpoint.

Edited, Jun 10th 2012 5:52pm by Rinsui
#41 Jun 10 2012 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Freedom in a MMO does not stem from the theoretical possibility of choice; it stems from the balance between the choices available.


Oh, my - that's nicely put. Smiley: nod
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#42 Jun 10 2012 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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^^ The freedom to play as you see fit is still there, if they want to walk to an istance they can, if they want to create a party from their own server they can, there is no option where if everybody else uses teleports or LFG tool, your option to do those 2 things is taken away from you, will there be some backlash for choosing to play that way ? Sure! If i chose to play a warrior that wears leather, i should accept the fact that the majority of people will ignore me, because i made a choice to play that Way. And also like i said they still got the option to play the exact way they want, and we can play how we want, if their way was so popular and supported nobody would teleport or use LFG tool, but it is not, on the other hand, if Se gives in to those people, our way of playing will be taken away from us, to service a few people's gameplay choices.

That is what i'm againts. Taking the choice away from the majority for the very few.
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#43 Jun 10 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Semantics aside, hand-holding is optional.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 Jun 10 2012 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of people complaining about immersion... http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/47469-Toggle-Jump

Unbelievable.
#45 Jun 10 2012 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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Jump is immersive. It might annoy some people. But is it believable you can't jump over a 2 inch ledge? I could jump that in a wheelchair.
#46 Jun 11 2012 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
@Ostia

While I'm with you on the matter per se (I also like quest markers and teleports), he's right in one point:
he is *not* free to play the game with names off or without teleporting. In a MMO with certain possibilities,
unwritten rules of how to do things evolve. Going against those rules will lead to irritation among your fellow
players, and ultimately fewer people to play with. Because your pick-up party leader will usually not wait for
you to catch up running when the group teleports from Ul'dah to Gridania.


Frankly, an MMO has a lot of flexibility to accommodate differing play styles. If you want to pretend you're in a fantasy realm with names off and no teleporting, you can do that. But people doing that aren't going to be interested in the routine Ifrit fight night for their thousandth time to complete their seventh weapon because doing so runs contrary to their self-proscribed immersion of "realistic fantasy world" if that immersion is the most important thing they show up for. Yet, somehow, I don't think people are really that demanding on themselves which makes the immersion argument thinly veiled.

I think most people want the teamwork and rewards of working together in an MMO far more than having the game world be some sort of imitation of the real world. There's nothing realistic about MMOs. No one really dies. No one ages. No one has kids. No one has parents. No one worries about hygiene. You don't get scarred from being hurt. You can carry tons of weight without showing any bulkiness, and still manage to run at the same speed as though you were naked. And there's all the nuances like wildlife just appearing out of nothing. They don't age or reproduce or go extinct from over-hunting. You can mine the same single point time and again and it never depletes of resources forever and you never even put a dent in the rock face. People talk using text. They only seem to know a limited number of gestures and can't seem to learn any others.

But of course, it's a game, and it's going to have its own set of limitations and certain mechanics designed to make it fun and enjoyable at the expense of being realistic. And yet, MMOs are still fun because they have their own set of strategies, rules, and characteristics. It becomes its own reality, and that's what you actually get immersed in. You're immersed in a world of leveling, and specializing, and re-specializing, and getting that perfect set of gear while always looking good even while being roasted by a dragon. You're not immersed in anything that resembles real life, you're immersed in a world that obeys a different set of rules, and you're okay with that.

Or you're not okay with it. And that's fine, but you can't impose your sense of "immersion" on someone else because not only is it personal for everyone, it's not a real world to begin with. It's a game world that can't really mimic reality in a profound way, at best it's just a crude imitation with the added requirement that it removes unnecessary tedium for the sake of remaining entertaining. So what it really comes down to is, you're either having a good time and getting into the game world's own sense of reality or you're not. It's that simple.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 6:08am by Xoie
#47 Jun 11 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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There may be a way to make everyone happy. Give the NPCs Emotes that only appear in the text of the person that still hasn't done what that NPC wants.
For example.... I walk past and an emote pops up on my screen "(insert random NPC name here) whispers your name." Then i dont have to seek them out and read their whole life story if I don't want to AND it makes it even more immersive. That way if I'm looking around for quests I will probably find more than i bargained for just by walking down the street. And who could pass up the tempting whisper of an NPC. I'm not sure how tough the coding will be for that but it doesn't seem like making a line of text pop up when in a certain proximity of an npc would be to difficult.

Also, as far as hand holding being optional... Add-ons will be allowed. So even if SE chooses not to include a WoW based questing help system, I'm sure someone will.

FF has always been a series of pretty visuals. A giant "!" would certainly be an eyesore, but i'm all for something a little more subtle. I don't care to spend hours of time meeting NPC's that might as well be part of the landscape if i don't have to.

Besides, I'm an adventurer! If people want me to do something they need to seek me out. Otherwise I'm busy slaying ferocious beasts

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 10:06am by Xineohpzero

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 10:09am by Xineohpzero
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