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#1 Jun 14 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello all,
Following on from another thread I wrote about the desirability of Disciples of War for parties, I'd like to ask:

How are the classes balanced at the moment, particularly for competitive, cutting-edge group play?

What I mean is, what classes are the most in-demand of their types, in order to make a balanced, effective party that can clear the hardest content in the game? What classes seem to find themselves waiting hours and hours for parties because everyone plays them, or because they're underpowered compared to other classes that compete for the same 'slot' in a party?

It would be nice if people could make this information known here so that there's a clear thread for newcomers who know they want to create a desirable, competitive class.

Obviously people should play what they consider to be 'fun', but sometimes it isn't fair when someone spends days or weeks leveling a class only to find the developers haven't balanced it very well and parties ignore it or pass it up in favour of a different class that performs the same role more effectively or powerfully.

I'm hoping this thread can save a player who wants to make a competitive class a lot of time.
#2 Jun 14 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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Thelps wrote:
cutting-edge group play


Theoretically, the classes are perfectly balanced for cutting-edge groups because FFXIV doesn't have any such group dynamics. When we look at what content the game does have, however, there are no "hard" aspects to it; people often tank the endgame bosses naked just for fun. In fact, it's probably due to this problem that I hear many people dismissing Paladin - there's not much need for an all-out defensive tank when content seems to be balanced toward zerg runs more than anything else... so I guess you could say that everything's fine unless you're a Gladiator/Paladin.

I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on the matter, though, since I'm not exactly at endgame myself.


Edited, Jun 14th 2012 6:35pm by KaneKitty
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#3 Jun 14 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Thelps wrote:
competitive, cutting-edge group play


You made my day Smiley: smile
#4 Jun 14 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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So I assume the game is so unrefined and unbalanced that such things don't exist yet?

FFXI had some boss battles where people utterly refused to take any melee, except to set up skillchains for the casters to get their elemenyal bonuses from.

There were dungeons and boss fights where one mistake would mean a wipe and 2-3 hours worth of redoing content simply to reach that point again.

I guess maybe this is INTENDED in FFXIV but not present yet, due to the game's 'limbo' status as somewhere between Beta and release?

The more info anyone can provide, the better. I greatly appreciate your input.
#5 Jun 14 2012 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Thelps wrote:
So I assume the game is so unrefined and unbalanced that such things don't exist yet?

Well the battle mechanics and encounter design are lacking, but there are some changes on the horizon. No one really knows to what extent, but it looks like they'll be trying to work out the battle regimen system as well as adding PvP. Those things are a long way out though so it isn't clear yet what sort of effect they will have on group interaction.
Thelps wrote:
There were dungeons and boss fights where one mistake would mean a wipe and 2-3 hours worth of redoing content simply to reach that point again.

I must've been doinitwrong because I completely missed that part. The only thing close to what you mention here was world HNMs that wiping on meant someone else would claim and you'd have to wait up to a week just to see it again. Otherwise you had reraise and it was just a matter of waiting for weakness to wear off.

There are boss fights in XIV like Ifrit and Garuda, but they aren't all that challenging and if you wipe you just need to travel back to where you entered the battle. Stuff like this is instanced so you don't have to sweat someone else getting claim.
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#6 Jun 15 2012 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Thelps wrote:
Hello all,
Following on from another thread I wrote about the desirability of Disciples of War for parties, I'd like to ask:

How are the classes balanced at the moment, particularly for competitive, cutting-edge group play?

What I mean is, what classes are the most in-demand of their types, in order to make a balanced, effective party that can clear the hardest content in the game? What classes seem to find themselves waiting hours and hours for parties because everyone plays them, or because they're underpowered compared to other classes that compete for the same 'slot' in a party?

It would be nice if people could make this information known here so that there's a clear thread for newcomers who know they want to create a desirable, competitive class.

Obviously people should play what they consider to be 'fun', but sometimes it isn't fair when someone spends days or weeks leveling a class only to find the developers haven't balanced it very well and parties ignore it or pass it up in favour of a different class that performs the same role more effectively or powerfully.

I'm hoping this thread can save a player who wants to make a competitive class a lot of time.



Okay, the posts above are from people who aren't playing the game and is all hearsay. Here's actual info first hand from someone who has played the game.

1: Paladin Artifact is useless, yes. That is true. The stats are very lacking and you can get much more out of your tanking ability if you use melded Cobalt Gear. Tanking naked, I don't know who has done that, but that's kind of asinine.

2: White Mages will always be needed. However, there are usually two spots for such out of an 8 person party. Ifrit and Moogle usually requires 2 White Mages. Garuda you can get by with 1.

3: Paladin and Warrior are interchangeable when it comes to tanking. Warrior is better for tanking a group of mobs (with Steel Cyclone) and is kind of better for tanking Hamlet battles due to being able to dish out more damage. Paladin is more useful for Moogle and Ifrit and Garuda.

4. Each of the damage dealing types are useful for different situations. Monk can do magical damage but is close-range, Dragoon has spike damage. Bard is a good all-around kind of job. Decent damage, and buffs make it useful.

Lastly, Garuda is not as easy as people are making it out to be. They likely watched a BLM burn early on its release before it was patched.
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#7 Jun 15 2012 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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The Primal fights are more interesting than your typical boss battle from FFXI, and most bosses i ndungeons have patterns to learn and things to avoid, which is nice.

There's no LOLjob, but Pld's are a bit underpowered and we're all hoping they get buffed. Warrior is a ridiculous class, maybe overpowered because they can deal great dmg and tank.

Drg is like a sam/thf hybrid, great DD.

Blm and Whm are equally welcomed to groups, and Bard isn't ONLY a bard, as Arc was previously the king of DD, it now just has a new group of abilities. Monk... I don't see them often.

Classes are balanced in that nothing is really TOO unique where you can't do this without a bard or something, but nothing requires immense cooperation either, like skill chains.
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#8 Jun 24 2012 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Suggestions on DD class that would find itself in high demand currently?
#9 Jun 24 2012 at 1:22 PM Rating: Default
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Class are badly unbalance, there is no reason for a THM to out DPS any other DD class at the same level by 10000000% and and still be 10 times more efficient doing pretty much anything.
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#10 Jun 24 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Classes are relatively balanced but unfortunately many people have the idea stuck in their head that the only dd class that is allowed in anything is blm. Drg and Mnk get the shaft for many endgame events, standard party comp is bring your tanks and heals, 1 bard and a bunch of blms.
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#11 Jun 24 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elamille wrote:
Classes are relatively balanced but unfortunately many people have the idea stuck in their head that the only dd class that is allowed in anything is blm. Drg and Mnk get the shaft for many endgame events, standard party comp is bring your tanks and heals, 1 bard and a bunch of blms.


This is sad. I hope it gets fixed as I am currently leveling my PUG and I am looking forward to getting my MNK soul. ...Would obviously be useless if this is the kind of end-game experience I will be getting... Which seems to be, Oh! ---> None. ;_;
#12 Jun 24 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Elamille wrote:
Classes are relatively balanced but unfortunately many people have the idea stuck in their head that the only dd class that is allowed in anything is blm. Drg and Mnk get the shaft for many endgame events, standard party comp is bring your tanks and heals, 1 bard and a bunch of blms.


No they are not, the only reason people can even say that with a straight face, is because it was the same way in FFXI.

There is no balance as far as classes are concerned, Thm/BM out perform every single DPS in the game by a HUGE margin, is not even close, is not like they do 2% more dps, they do 60% More! As far as i have seen i am level 32 lancer, and my mage friend can solo leves at 4 stars(6 levels higher) than his own, and not break a sweat, Magic dmg does not miss for what i have seen atleast, even if the monster is higher level, melee attacks miss most of the time if the monster is 2-4 levels above you, and you do a measly 40-35 dmg, while a mage can just press one key and do 300-500-600 dmg my combos combined do around 300 and i have to spend 1000 TP, a mage can just laugh and kill a monster......

At first i tho that the difference in dps would decrease as levels went up, but it is the same as i have seen since level 1, a mage can outperform any other dps with easy and efficiency. No wonder they stack them for bosses, is not even a contest.
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#13 Jun 24 2012 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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In before:
"But Mages and Archers are Glass Canons... they do high damage, but... but... they have low HP and die in a hit or two!"
Which is crap. Because with featherfoot/heavy/sleep and self-heals, mages never get hit. They just stand in a save corner.

P.S.: I never understood how an Arrow in FFXI would actually do MORE damage than a half-ton Great Axe directly on the skull.
#14 Jun 24 2012 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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It's cute how people pretend to know what they are talking about. BRD and ARC has nowhere near DPS as MNK or DRG (or their class counterparts). In your dream it would be, BRD has only two feasible WS that are Rain of Death (30 secs CD and 3,000 TP cost) and Quick Nock (3 min CD). Barrage is not as good as you believe if it is used on high def mobs like Primal or PLD Moogle for exampple, it totally sucks. THM/BLM has very high spike damage in the beginning but they will soon run out of MP and Thundaga (45 secs CD) to combo with, in a long battle they do not do 60% more dmg than MNK or DRG. In fact in 16-17mins AV run people would change from BLM to MNK on Mistress because it's faster. THM/BLM is only undisputed on AoE normal mobs because they have the largest AoE ********

Ifrit (Hard mode only) - Luck after Hellfire, you may or may not get screwed up and it doesn't matter what DD you are using, they all gonna die if you get screwed up.
Moogle - BRD and BLM for speedrun not because of doing more dmg, but because half of the Moogles will run away when you get hate, and all of them randomly do hate reset
AV - MNK. BLM main job is, guess what, Sleepga
CC - You can do either BLM stacking (a bit harder since 1.22b) or MNK + DRG (MNK can incap the tail and make it safer for melee) for speedrun
Garuda - You can try stacking BLM and see for yourself, it's already patched.
Castrum Novum - H1 bot has a ton of Hp and Def and OHKO long range directional AoE attack, so it's either very easy with any DD or it's very hard with any DD depends on you know how to do it or not.

And Hamlet wise a PLD is much better than WAR. You are not required to do much dmg to get 60k+ or 70k+ score, while PLD can make WHM life hella easier than a WAR.

Featherfoot/Heavy/Sleep/Self-Heal are all crap in end-game.

The only one get the shaft is people who don't or won't play all lvl 50 jobs with above average gears (AF are mostly crap, but what do you expect from free stuff?).

Edited, Jun 24th 2012 10:05pm by Khornette
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#15 Jun 25 2012 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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@Khornette
You do realize that I talked about archers way back in FFXI, right? Nonetheless, let's have some fun:

Quote:
it doesn't matter what DD you are using, they all gonna die if you get screwed up.

Paraphrased:"If you jump right into Ifrit's mouth, everyone will die. So survivability of classes is equal". Boy, the point is that Archers and Mages are far less likely to get hit by anything, because they can stand in a save distance.

Quote:
AV - MNK. BLM main job is, guess what, Sleepga

So what? You claim that BLMs have more utility than Monks? What about simply bringing in even more BLMs instead of the Monks?

Quote:
CC - You can do either BLM stacking

...or voluntarily make life harder for you by using any of the other jobs.

Quote:
Garuda - You can try stacking BLM and see for yourself, it's already patched.

Again, people fail at Garuda now despite BLM stacking, not because of it. The point is: bringing in 3-4 BLMs still makes the fight easier than bringing in 3-4 additional melee characters. Do you see a pattern here? Come on, you can do it!

Quote:
Castrum Novum - H1 bot has a ton of Hp and Def and OHKO long range directional AoE attack, so it's either very easy with any DD or it's very hard with any DD depends on you know how to do it or not.

Paraphrased:"If you jump right into the bot's mouth, everyone will die. So survivability of classes is equal". Boy, the point is that Archers and Mages are far less likely to get hit by anything, because they can stand in a save distance... Hey wait! That sounds familiar!

Quote:
Featherfoot/Heavy/Sleep/Self-Heal are all crap in end-game.... BLM main job is, guess what, Sleepga

Yay for contradictory statements and short attention spans.

And finally:
Quote:
The only one get the shaft is people who don't or won't play all lvl 50 jobs with above average gears

is right why I fear that any newcomer will pick up the game, realize that 90% of the time, he'll be playing a job he doesn't like a bit because it is "advised" for the current encounter (which, in another 40% of cases, will be BLM), puke, and struggle to get a refund at his local gamespot.

#16 Jun 25 2012 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui, have you actually been in these end-game at all, or just speculating it on the forum huh?

In Ifrit Hard mode, there is equally as much safe spot for Melee as for Ranged, Crack and Plume are what killing people. In Extreme mode it is reported there is no safe spot, Big kaboom will hit anywhere it feels like and Ifrit will reset hate every Jump.

In AV, BLM is useful for AoE spam on the way to the Mistress as well as primarily Sleepga on adds at Mistress. MNK wins hand down at DPS battle there. You can try bringing in more BLM but it's a lot harder to burn Mistress before she regen than MNK burn.

In Garuda, it is actually easier to have Melee because you have to kill the Plumes/Feathers ASAP as they spawn and doing this on BLM is quite MP costly/time costly. People are so used to BLM burn that after the patch they just give up, because the new strategy require a more balanced set up.

Castrum Novum, lol you have never fought any of these bots, staying at distance is equally at risk/safety as staying right close to it. The AoE is farther than the distance you can shoot/cast spells and you have to move sideway to avoid it. In fact most of the time nub death occurred are Ranged/Healers. It has tons of HP and def, making the battle long which even out the DPS capability of MNK/DRG/BLM, because BLM is a Spike DD type meaning BLM does awesome damage the first minute or two then begin to decrease significantly.

Because Sleepga is only used in one out of 3 Primals (one that has 2 modes for end-game), 2 Dungeons (I pretend that Darkhold is not end-game, because it is not) and 4 Strongholds.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 4:24am by Khornette
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#17 Jun 25 2012 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
P.S.: I never understood how an Arrow in FFXI would actually do MORE damage than a half-ton Great Axe directly on the skull.


Poor design. Someone at SE decided arrows should ignore armor. Balance...
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#18 Jun 25 2012 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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No. Blm and Bard are wanted in nearly every game over traditional melee because they can stay out of AoE range.

It's always a problem. At least in Diablo, the devs added mortars and other things to try to balance it (and failed)

There should never be a low def melee DD, as Mnk and Drg seem to be, because no one wants to have to heal anyone but the tank.
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#19 Jun 25 2012 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
No. Blm and Bard are wanted in nearly every game over traditional melee because they can stay out of AoE range.

It's always a problem. At least in Diablo, the devs added mortars and other things to try to balance it (and failed)

There should never be a low def melee DD, as Mnk and Drg seem to be, because no one wants to have to heal anyone but the tank.


What AoE range are you going to stay out at? Ifrit, Garuda, Chimera, H1 Magitek Vanguard and Coincounter to a certain extent all have OHKO AoE move that reach almost everywhere they want, there is simply nowhere for you to stay out of other than constant moving. Have you tried Chimera after 1.22b patch?
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#20 Jun 25 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I would be o.k. with a ranged class that does good damage in exchange for low survivability, as long as it not possible to "nail down" all the danger with a single tank / off tank combination. In that regard, SE's class design choice is a little questionable at the moment.

I see two scenarios that are both viable and fair:
Scenario 1: "Tanks can't consistently hold the hate of all enemies"
-> Ranged class that does tons of damage is o.k., because it is constantly in *real* danger without *several* supporting tanks. Like this, it always is a tradeoff: either you bring more secondary tanks (thus lowering overall damage dealt), or you skip the secondary tanks and pay for your damage-only focus with lots of dead mage/archer glass canons.
Scenario 2: "A single tank or two can consistently hold the hate of all enemies"
-> Ranged classes can only do moderate to low damage in exchange for their relative savety.

So, perhaps, it is less a matter of unbalanced ranged DDs alone, but a matter of combat mechanics that favor single (dual) tank setups.
#21 Jun 25 2012 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ifrit, Garuda, Chimera, H1 Magitek Vanguard and Coincounter to a certain extent all have OHKO AoE move that reach almost everywhere they want

While I already disagree with your assessment, killer moves alone are not the problem; they generally kill melee characters just as much as mages. The problem also is that by staying out of the reach of normal attacks (Ifrit plumes come to mind), you lower the amount of damage that has to be healed by your whitemage. Also, whenever Ifrit or Garuda jumps around, all Melee characters have to run up to re-engage, while an archer or mage will simply continue shooting arrows/bolts across the battlefield (and always be able to stand at a relatively save spot. Because there's relatively save spots even in CC, the Garuda fight or with Miser's. And you can hardly be serious about Coin Counter. Or the old Troll in Dzemael, which is exemplary for the save-spotting superiority of ranged DDs. At least it was when I last went there.


Edited, Jun 25th 2012 10:26am by Rinsui
#22 Jun 25 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Ifrit, Garuda, Chimera, H1 Magitek Vanguard and Coincounter to a certain extent all have OHKO AoE move that reach almost everywhere they want

While I already disagree on your assessment, killer moves alone are not the problem; they generally kill melee characters just as much as mages. The problem also is that by staying out of the reach of normal attacks (Ifrit plumes come to mind), you lower the amount of damage that has to be healed by your whitemage. Also, whenever Ifrit or Garuda jumps around, all Melee characters have to run up to re-engage, while an archer or mage will simply continue shooting arrows/bolts across the battlefield (and always be able to stand at a relatively save spot. Because there's relatively save spots even in CC, the Garuda fight or with Miser's.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 10:23am by Rinsui


Again I have to ask have you actually played in those fights recently, or just making it up because it seems fun? Ifrit Plume is the one that span almost the entire battlefield leaving very little safe spot (which conveniently the largest safe patch is right where Ifrit and the tank is). Whenever Ifrit jump, everyone scramble to designated safe spots, and then they will have to move back to their old location. Mages/Archer staying where the safe spots after jump were would risk getting crack on the healers and imminent party wipe, they are to stand at further back of the field to be crack bait. Archer/Bard would be the one getting killed the most in Ifrit to be honest.

There are no relative safe spot for Garuda. You even touch it or not? Before Astral, she's very lolcake in that she only hit in front of her, and there are 4 column of stones you have to hide behind whenever she repops. After Astral you can't hide anywhere, little Plumes will get to you and then explode. The Miser fight is not about safe spot, because you want to kill her ASAP before she start retreating and regenerating, it's the whole point of speed run. In CC there are AoE moves and Ants spawning, which although ranged still have "relatively" safer spots, it's no joke. Don't even start about Ifrit Extreme mode.

And just so you know, more than a few of the current bosses reset hate including Ifrit Extreme, so you can't stay happily ever after in your safe spot and playing the game with one finger.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 10:35am by Khornette
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#23 Jun 25 2012 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Ifrit, Garuda, Chimera, H1 Magitek Vanguard and Coincounter to a certain extent all have OHKO AoE move that reach almost everywhere they want

While I already disagree on your assessment, killer moves alone are not the problem; they generally kill melee characters just as much as mages. The problem also is that by staying out of the reach of normal attacks (Ifrit plumes come to mind), you lower the amount of damage that has to be healed by your whitemage. Also, whenever Ifrit or Garuda jumps around, all Melee characters have to run up to re-engage, while an archer or mage will simply continue shooting arrows/bolts across the battlefield (and always be able to stand at a relatively save spot. Because there's relatively save spots even in CC, the Garuda fight or with Miser's.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 10:23am by Rinsui


Again I have to ask have you actually played in those fights recently, or just making it up because it seems fun? Ifrit Plume is the one that span almost the entire battlefield leaving very little safe spot (which conveniently the largest safe patch is right where Ifrit and the tank is). Whenever Ifrit jump, everyone scramble to designated safe spots, and then they will have to move back to their old location. Mages/Archer staying where the safe spots after jump were would risk getting crack on the healers and imminent party wipe, they are to stand at further back of the field to be crack bait. Archer/Bard would be the one getting killed the most in Ifrit to be honest.


What are you talking about!?

I just did ifrit last night. Blm Blm Blm Brd Whm Whm Tank.

We all stood in the EXACT same spot, safe from all dashes and plumes. We moved on cracks, then came back.

Like this:
-------------------------------------------
..............Tank
Whm........Ifrit.........Whm

....O
..../\
.....|
EVERYONE ELSE
--------------------------------------------

If you had a melee in there, they would get hit by knockback aoe (no one else does but the tank) and on jumps they would have to scramble to that one safe spot.

Is this why some people in-game think Ifrit is hard?

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 10:51am by Louiscool
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#24Khornette, Posted: Jun 25 2012 at 8:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And do you know where the safe spots for Melee when Ifrit jumps? It's just right over there with the tank, they spend least time running compared to ranged. Knock back AoE is hardly dangerous plus LNC/DRG can actually stay outside of its range as well. Plumes conveniently leaves the small area behind Ifrit's back for melee. And why would you think Ifrit is hard? It's the oldest/most farmed end-game content to-date. Or are you getting confused with Extreme mode that people are getting pummeled left and right? To start Extreme mode you have to be very close to finishing relic and I don't think you have.
#25 Jun 25 2012 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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You REALLY need to work on reading comprehension.

Quote:
Is this why some people in-game think Ifrit is hard?


SOME people. They exist, in weirdly large numbers. Now in this context, after having told you how easy it is for ranged classes, this question would be in the tone of "I don't understand why people..."

Use context clues next time.

Additionally,

Quote:
Quote:
No. Blm and Archer are wanted in nearly every game over traditional melee because they can stay out of AoE range.

It's always a problem. At least in Diablo, the devs added mortars and other things to try to balance it (and failed)

There should never be a low def melee DD, as Mnk and Drg seem to be, because no one wants to have to heal anyone but the tank.


What AoE range are you going to stay out at? Ifrit, Garuda, Chimera, H1 Magitek Vanguard and Coincounter to a certain extent all have OHKO AoE move that reach almost everywhere they want, there is simply nowhere for you to stay out of other than constant moving. Have you tried Chimera after 1.22b patch?


You should use the previous lesson about reading for this post as well. I highlighted the part you skipped over:

Quote:
Blm and Archer are wanted in nearly every game over traditional melee because they can stay out of AoE range.


So while I cite EVERY game ever as an example, you refute it with 2 very specific points as it relates to a slight few endgame activities in FFXIV, and debase others for not doing it recently (even though I have.)
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#26 Jun 25 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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@Khornette
So basically you are saying:
"Even if you took away the ranged element from archers and black mages, they would get just as many party invites as before."
Like, because we already established that being able to attack from range provides no significant advantage.
Where do you come from, pal?
Wonderland?

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 1:16pm by Rinsui
#27 Jun 25 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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This war has gone on in every RPG (MMO or not) since the dawn of dynamic party make-ups (Final Fantasy 1?).

Right now, party balance is fine. The problem is that mobs are still broken. Each job and class brings something unique to the table. The only problem is, mob logic and abilities are not yet balanced to the changes that have happened. Net result: Easily over-optimized classes/jobs for party situations (exploiting the current innate weaknesses of mobs). And I am not talking about exploit as in exploiting a game, but by taking advantage of an obvious weakness or flaw.

The current mobs even have an answer to the AoE bombing that parties do (if you doubt that, run around in Castrum Novum with an AoE party and see how far you get, then go in with a pld tank, and a few mnks, lnc and whm. Your kill to death ratio should be much higher with the pld and melee, simply by having the pld keeping the group busy, while the meleers take down 1-3 mobs at a time, then once all the dinks are done, everyone focus on the Mech). Natalan and the Mines have very much the same sort of function. But in those places, you don't have the over-powering Mech, which is definitely the great equalizer in that area.


I just hope that SE raises the bar when they are done updating the mobs (which they have already said that updates for this are coming).

#28 Jun 25 2012 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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^ This.

I don't think anyone is saying that Range DD is the only way to do anything. It's just the path of least resistance, which is what PUGs strive for, because you can't depend on party members unless you know them.

When Abyssea came out, that was the start off FFXI's "No TP Feed" phase. No one wanted a melee because it caused the enemy to spam tp moves, and it was all around boring. I think they have a ways to go before balancing the classes, but they won't bother focusing on that until 2.0.

It's gotten to the point where I don't see a reason to gear up Drg anymore because I'm forever Bard ;;
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#29 Jun 25 2012 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the point of Khornette is that BLM are popular because they bring some utility (all other classes/jobs with sleepga, raise your hand!) and the way they deal their damage (No need to build TP, back to back AoE with low to no cooldowns, etc.). Range has got nothing to do with how good they are.

If a melee class was able to open fight with their strongest attack, and chain even stronger attacks back to back and finish the fight in seconds, they'd probably be just as popular as BLM (without the Sleepga element).

The key difference is that BLM run on MP (Starts full, refills slowly), all other DDs run on TP (starts empty, refills quickly), not the range.
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#30 Jun 25 2012 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
I think the point of Khornette is that BLM are popular because they bring some utility (all other classes/jobs with sleepga, raise your hand!) and the way they deal their damage (No need to build TP, back to back AoE with low to no cooldowns, etc.). Range has got nothing to do with how good they are.

If a melee class was able to open fight with their strongest attack, and chain even stronger attacks back to back and finish the fight in seconds, they'd probably be just as popular as BLM (without the Sleepga element).

The key difference is that BLM run on MP (Starts full, refills slowly), all other DDs run on TP (starts empty, refills quickly), not the range.


Actually (IMO) BLM is popular because it's an easy class to play and get good damage, it's a perfect job for PUGs with random people. All but the crappiest players can do above average damage with BLM. Granted you still have the random idiot spamming spells and making life difficult on the tank, but the damage is still higher than a mediocre player on a melee DD. I'm not saying there's no skill to BLM, because there is... it's just that like your favorite fighting game... BLM is that charactor that anyone can play decently even though other fighters can do more damage with a skilled player. (The analogy worked so much better in my head before I typed it)
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#31 Jun 25 2012 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Reading this thread really discourages me from playing FFXIV. I've been playing for almost three weeks now and I have been leveling a Monk. Reason being is I liked playing a Thief in FFXI and well... Monk just appeals to me as being most similar to a Thief from FFXI. ANYWAYS....

I am not much of a Tank or Healer and on rarely would I call a Support role being fun. No offense to anybody that likes any of these roles, this is just me. I do enjoy being a squishy melee to some degree... but after reading all these posts, I'm thinking that FFXIV is a no-hope for someone who likes to play a Monk or Dragoon.

Let me ask this then... is there anything that a Monk or Dragoon can look forward to in end-game content? Really don't feel like playing anymore if I won't be able to join a party as a Monk to tackle end-game stuff. Just saying.

#32 Jun 25 2012 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Squince88 wrote:
Reading this thread really discourages me from playing FFXIV. I've been playing for almost three weeks now and I have been leveling a Monk. Reason being is I liked playing a Thief in FFXI


Not to discourage you any further, but... if you liked XI then why not just play XI? I'm gonna guess that the answer is 'Because no one wanted me for anything other than TH' and tell you that the mentality hasn't changed. There will always be an optimal setup for a particular event or battle so you'll probably never escape that unless you happen to favor a class who is included on that list.

Squince88 wrote:
Monk just appeals to me as being most similar to a Thief from FFXI.


You must've quit a loooooong time ago Smiley: disappointed
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#33 Jun 25 2012 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Squince88 wrote:
but after reading all these posts, I'm thinking that FFXIV is a no-hope for someone who likes to play a Monk or Dragoon

Really, it depends on how much you're willing to ***** yourself out for the greater good of the community vs how insistent you are to play the jobs you like* and nothing else.

From where I stand, I haven't yet met anything in FFXIV that I couldn't go and attempt to do on my favourite jobs/classes. Pugilist / Monk was my first 50, and I was able to participate to every event I cared to attempt at the time (Instances, Primals, Faction NMs, World NMs, etc.)

However, I rapidly decided that I much prefer healing and support to punching things when in big groups, so my 2nd 50 was Conjurer, and have since leveled Gladiator and Black mage, with Archer following closely.

Currently, my the job I consider my main** is BLM, but in a game where I can literally decide on the drop of a hat that my current PT would benefit more from me on WHM, PLD, MNK or BRD, you can totally believe me that I'll take that "blow" for the team.

tl;dr: If you want to stick to DRG and MNK, I don't see a reason to quit because of that. You're certainly not helping the odds of actually doing the events in Pick-up groups, but you're completely avoiding the problem of doing them on jobs you don't like. Find a LS that does some events, and if it's anything like the ones I've been in, they'll be glad to have someone online to play with.

*Obviously, if you don't level the other jobs, you won't really have to play them.
**I actually still consider goldsmith to be my main, despite the loss of focus on the DoH/DoL.
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#34 Jun 25 2012 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
You REALLY need to work on reading comprehension.


Yes, I understand I made a bad point at that, because I thought we are arguing over FFXIV class balance.

Quote:
SOME people. They exist, in weirdly large numbers. Now in this context, after having told you how easy it is for ranged classes, this question would be in the tone of "I don't understand why people..."

Use context clues next time.


Yes, because weirdly large number of people already got too many Ifrit weapons and they just don't bother going back there. What for? Also weirdly you (and maybe those people) trying to forget that Ifrit first release has LNC LNC LNC LNC LNC Healer Healer Tank as the set up to speed kill it, and in fact the general outcry was why Mages so weak vs Ifrit. There is no thing hard about bringing melee into Ifrit. I have to stress again, speed kill. The only "hard" thing about Ifrit is animation lock on bad server architecture, with the random thing Ifrit do after Hellfire (he can go nut and crack on Healer/Tank at the same time and you can be sure it's a wipe).

Quote:
Additionally,

You should use the previous lesson about reading for this post as well. I highlighted the part you skipped over:

So while I cite EVERY game ever as an example, you refute it with 2 very specific points as it relates to a slight few endgame activities in FFXIV, and debase others for not doing it recently (even though I have.)


Yes, I agree I didn't read that and that was my bad.

But you know what, after 1.22b when Voice of the Dragon on Chimera now hit the ranged, people are complaining it's too hard to do CC because they can't stack BLM (which some other people pointed out they can still) and can't stay in one spot press 1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3 to win anymore. And then they complain why ranged get an unfair advantage... And yes, my point is that BLM does not do 60% dmg more than Melee, and that SE actually has been trying to balance out the playing field by throwing in moves and adds that can reach out to the ranged and what they got are more people complaining and avoiding such contents (Garuda, it's hard because people are so used to Ranged safety spots which is gone now). And yet most of the people here complaining about class unbalanced are, guess what, people not playing end-game. Put two and two together and you see what I am trying to say.

P.S: If you have read through all the comments who are saying the balance is better than the others made out to be, you can see that they all come from people who have all lvl 50. It is easy to presume something is very out of whack because you don't have experience about it firsthand. Also I have no intention to reject that the game is gearing toward having multiple class to work in different situation, because balance is supposed to bring unqiue strength and weakness to class and not making them all similar to each other.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 8:31pm by Khornette
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#35 Jun 25 2012 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll just add that SE could balance every class to perfection. It don't mean diddly squat if the enemy tactics and weaknesses are similar. This goes for every game with combat period. Thankfully, it does appear SE is trying to work on enemy characteristics to some degree.
#36 Jun 25 2012 at 8:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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@Docent42

Thanks. Was good to read your post. Back on track in the mind set of just playing the game. All the negative stuff on MNK was just starting to take its toll. lol... gotta stay away from those kinds of threads! ><

Thanks again.
#37 Jun 25 2012 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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One thing to consider is the lack of skillchains/battle regimens for the melee players. They did mention it is something the ffxiv team is working on for 2.0 and I hope it allows people who prefer melee classes more bang to even with the Thm/Blm and future magic classes.
#38 Jun 25 2012 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elamille wrote:
Classes are relatively balanced but unfortunately many people have the idea stuck in their head that the only dd class that is allowed in anything is blm. Drg and Mnk get the shaft for many endgame events, standard party comp is bring your tanks and heals, 1 bard and a bunch of blms.


Why, hello FFXI circa 2006. Long time no see. How have you been? Good, good. Nice to see that the old FF rule of "If you can't kill it, throw more BLMs at it" still applies even today.
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#39 Jun 26 2012 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette, I can get behind and understand all your points.

I don't have firsthand experience with BLM, just Drg and Bard. I recently came back and missed the initial Ifrit rush, left in January where we were running DH daily and the strategy there was more archers, and thms with DoT dmg.

Squince, This shouldn't discourage you, because any self-respecting LS would welcome you as whatever your chosen job is. I really only see this attitude in pick-up groups, because as Perrin said in that analogy (which is exactly how I see it)

It's like Virtua Fighter. The BLM is Lei-Fei, easy to string combos for players who arent' as skilled or experienced, can win matches by button mashing and still feel like you did something. Other classes are like Shun-Di, the drunken master. Very difficult, need to know exactly what you're doing, but a much better character in the hands of a savvy and experienced player.

(I had to look up their names so I highly doubt anyone will get that...)



Also, Drg is more like Thf than Mnk now. Lots of positional attacks and focus on Critical Dmg.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 8:28am by Louiscool
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#40 Jun 26 2012 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Just did a run through "United we Stand" with a social linkshell last night (and 2 people we picked up to help finish it out), and as far as I could tell, there were only 2 of us that had ever completed the fight (a couple had fought but lost).

I made a mistake getting to the last gate, got a couple people killed (I couldn't find the tunnel... we need map markers...), but in the end, we got there, spent 5 minutes going over the strat, went in, and in < 20 minutes, we walked out with a win.

With that being said, we tried to go with the standard pt, but couldn't get a blm, and had a drg in place of the blm.

At the end of the fight, I realized, we really only needed a single war, 2 whm, 2 tanks, and any 3 DDs. The two tanks rotate through destroying the Generator, and kiting the Mech. The War has to avoid using (or uses with care) AoE weaponskills when the generator is up, but other than that, focuses 100% on the adds (either by the generator when the mobs start spawning, or at the transmitter when the generator is down).

With the rest of the party focusing only on the transmitter. Even the two kiters don't need to be tanks (if they are good enough at running from the mech, and time the last hit, and know what they are doing), but pld or war can buff def, then destroy the piller and run. As well, Pld is better, as they don't have AoE, and will not accidently pull adds on the kite.

And after having gone into that battle field a few times, I can honestly say that, after the 1 War, and 2 Whm, that fight is 100% skill and 0% party make-up. Once you have the 1 War, and 2 Whm, you can win that fight with 2 whm kiters, and 3 whm dds if they know what they are doing.

More fights like this, I think will help people understand party play much better. Where there is a clear, and easy fight strategy, and speed is not necessary and does not influence reward. If it matters to people to spend 5 more minutes in a quest fight, then they can spend the 30 extra minutes making their own party and getting there:).

I think this is a good sign of things to come. Each fight that has been added to 14 since the battle adjustments has been adaptive to our play-style. And we now have a quest fight that skill and strategy are key. And with good players who know how to play their classes/jobs you can get a win on a first run (if you are familiar with the fight).

More fights like this, with more difficulty, and continued effective ways of assigning party members to tasks may prove to make fights feel like accomplishments.
#41 Jun 26 2012 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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I really wish they would stop focusing so much on attack abilities to differentiate melee DD characters and give unique traits or abilities to nullify or reduce specific damage types. Giving DGR or MNK (even LNC/PUG) an ability to nullify AOE damage or magic damge for a short time would be a welcome adjustment. I know they have done stuff like this in the past, but I think it offers a more unique balancing factor.

My first job to 50 with be LNC/DRG (43) and my wifes will be THM/BLM... even from level 1 it was pretty clear that THM was way stronger... I'd sit there swinging and missing things while she 2-shotted any leve mob. I'd buy new gear and she'd still be in her level 1-10 gear and still be outdamaging me and not leaving things alive long enough to do damage to her. I know this will change on group fights, but for solo purposes, mage classes seem to have a distinct advantage.

I am hoping that more spells/abilities/group dynamics are added to 2.0, as I do enjoy group play and would like my DRG to find a niche to settle into for group battles.
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#42 Jun 26 2012 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Sounds like you are not fighting high enough mobs. Try increasing the leve difficulty by 1 or 2 stars and try that. As well, you are at a point where you have most of your support abilities, but not your high damage abilities. Those should be coming ~45 if I remember correctly with Lnc/Drg.

On a side note, Drgs do have a place in party play. They are the stunners, and TP magnets. So, not only can they significantly reduce the mobs damage output, but they can use their weaponskills faster than any other class or job.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 11:58am by rfolkker
#43 Jun 26 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
Sounds like you are not fighting high enough mobs. Try increasing the leve difficulty by 1 or 2 stars and try that. As well, you are at a point where you have most of your support abilities, but not your high damage abilities. Those should be coming ~45 if I remember correctly with Lnc/Drg.

On a side note, Drgs do have a place in party play. They are the stunners, and TP magnets. So, not only can they significantly reduce the mobs damage output, but they can use their weaponskills faster than any other class or job.


That is good to hear :) We usually duo levels that are 3-4 levels ahead of us (so at 40 we were doing 43 mobs... we tried 46 and it didn't go well lol). I am looking forward to getting 45+ (pretty close now) and starting to get some final gear and be able to make builds... for leveling it seems pretty futile to change anything but the weapon and a few pieces with stat mods. The big battle after getting DRG to 50 will be getting PUG and ARC up to a level where I have access to all the abilities... as both classes are still at 15 >.>
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#44 Jun 26 2012 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Grandlethal, you should be able to easily duo +6 if you have your main cross abilities like second wind, featherfoot, foresight, protect, cure, and keep up Life Surge.

At 40 Lnc (recently to 50) I was soloing +3 and changed to +6 at 45. BUT, this was as Lnc, not Drg. I needed all my cures and other abilities that I couldn't use with Drg.
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#45 Jun 26 2012 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Grandlethal, you should be able to easily duo +6 if you have your main cross abilities like second wind, featherfoot, foresight, protect, cure, and keep up Life Surge.

At 40 Lnc (recently to 50) I was soloing +3 and changed to +6 at 45. BUT, this was as Lnc, not Drg. I needed all my cures and other abilities that I couldn't use with Drg.



I'll have to work on that a little then, as we were having some issues with the +6 on duo. I am missing a few abilities on that list as well, but I do have CNJ up to 32 now, so have Stoneskin and Raise that I didn't have the last time we duoed on those classes. The other issue is that my wife is still learning to watch things like HP during fights, so she tends to be a little slow with a cure if it is needed :P
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#46 Jun 26 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, and the exp gain isn't worth it if you're risking dying, or standing around for a while healing hp and mp. I don't have any hard numbers, but it always seems like completing the leve faster will net you more exp with the speed bonus than the extra exp per kill you receive.

Also, there really is no rush. I prefer to take more time leveling a job.


EDIT:

Also, I just noticed your Streetlight Manifesto sig. Nice.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 2:20pm by Louiscool
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#47 Jun 26 2012 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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yeah, that is sort of how we are rolling... taking time to play around with new skills and abilities as we get them. We have a few friends that have been playing since launch that have leveled with us a little here and there as well, but I find it is almost faster with 2 people than it is with 4-6 people. Either way, we are enjoying what we have done so far (leveling, quests, missions, etc), and are pretty excited to see what 2.0 brings to the table.

As for the Streetling Manifesto Sig... awesome group (although admittedly I wasn't blown away by their most recent album). I'm in Canada and not in a city they tour to often... but definitely one of my fav bands to see perform live. Lots of energy :)
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#48 Jun 27 2012 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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What I have found for exp is that the best way to balance it is to fight mobs as hard as you can safely handle, without any significant down time, and still get the speed bonus. Kind of a balancing act. If they are too easy, you lose anywhere between 200-500 exp a kill (assuming you are fighting 10 mobs a leve, that is 2-5k exp), and if they are too hard, you can spend 10-20 minutes extra a leve killing them (which is basically losing an entire leve worth of exp).

Typically in the 40s you should be getting ~8k+ exp a leve, and finishing them in 10 mins. If you flag 4 leves per location (and if you are not linking) duoing, you can get (8k*4)+(5k*4)~(12k*4)+(8k*4) exp every 2 hours (the first set of 4 would be yours, the second would be your partners and the range in exp rewards is based off the number of mobs you end up fighting). Add in travel and down time to fill in the twenty minutes per hour not fighting.

If you link them, you end up getting ~2k bonus exp, which doesn't add up to the 5-8k exp you would normally get from the additional mob kills. Leve linking works best when you are going for rewards (gil), or for faction points, or working with more then 2 ppl (as 4 leves is roughly 10-15 mins arun).

(so that should be 25k-40k an hour you can get in leves).

But, as Louis pointed out, it's always better to take a little less exp than to take even a single death. And it's always better to get the speed bonus (more leves, and the bonus exp) than to take too long to complete them (which also goes towards the no-death policy).
#49 Jun 28 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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If this is what future contents going to be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifM_vJ5F-eA&feature=player_embedded

There won't be any safe "ranged", there is only haul butst~
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#50 Jun 28 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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If this is what future contents going to be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifM_vJ5F-eA&feature=player_embedded

There won't be any safe "ranged", there is only haul butts~
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#51 May 04 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, so it's as I feared - Square have once again made half the classes redundant at the leading edge of the game - that is, encounters/bosses/ instances where all the rare, top-end gear drops. I'd guess these 'second rate' classes have to wait 10 times as long to find groups, feel like a charity invite when they're ('they could have taken another BLM') and know in the back of their mind that they're basically holding the group back from the full potential if they'd taken an 'optimal' class for that spot.

The worst thing is, even if Square DID try to balance these classes (which they didn't try to in FFXI) the basic design of all class abilities is so fundamentally biased to the 'optimal' classes for each role (WHM as healer, BLM as DD, PLD/WAR as tank and BRD as support) that all they'd manage is to make the 'secondary' classes better by a percentage, and certainly nowhere near equal to the 'optimals'.

Balance is everything in an MMO. It's the biggest challenge MMO developers face. Square appear to have not even tried. Is their strategy to make the 'secondary' classes a waste of everyone's time at endgame basically just another veiled timesink to force players to reroll once they realise how redundant they are, and thus guarantee more subscription time? Do they not realise this loses subscriptions and, once word gets out, puts people off buying/playing the game entirely?

WTF Square..?
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