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Gamespy: Have we simply outgrown the mmorpg?Follow

#1 Jun 17 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/122/1225088p1.html
Have you outgrown the mmorpg? This article touched in on being over accesible being a bad thing. But not being accesible is not viable any more either. A couple of posters mention FFXI and EQ having the best communities. The writer also comments on most mmos having the standard tab targeting as being done too often, even with today's internet speeds.

Edited, Jun 17th 2012 2:25pm by sandpark
#2 Jun 17 2012 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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I think the article is more about current MMO mechanics not being able to cope with the super accessability of information on the internet... not that we've outgrown MMOs, no need to sensasionalize the issue.

I do agree with the article. People shouting for help, and me or some one else offering it is how we meet new people in MMOs. MMOs will get twitchier and twitchier gameplay wise as people get impatient with slow mechanics, which doesn't lend towards causual conversation. As to the direction things should go? Meh, I guess if some one could make an EVE like in a different (ie more popular) setting they'd cash in. EVE is engaging yet slow enough for conversation, and all but requires voice chat during corp v corp engagements. I guess built in voice chat might allow games like XIV to have more dynamic fights... but alot of people don't want to "talk" to other people while playing MMOs. It's a slippery slope.
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#3 Jun 17 2012 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
I'd be all for our games heading in this direction! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsnEs6CIng
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#4 Jun 17 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:
A couple of posters mention FFXI and EQ having the best communities.

I didn't really get into EQ, but I'm almost certain XI was regarded as having a great community because of the relentless grind.

Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
I guess built in voice chat might allow games like XIV to have more dynamic fights... but alot of people don't want to "talk" to other people while playing MMOs. It's a slippery slope.


This is one of the things I don't really understand about MMO gamers. It's more personal for me to hear a voice than to read someone's name in a chat log. You hear a familiar voice and respond with something like "Hey Sarah, how's it going? A bunch of us were going to head over to [insert event here], wanna come along?". Just like the players talking to themselves in the vid Montsegurnephcreep posted as they were typing, why not just press a button and hear a voice?

It's the way technology has progressed, yet many seem so reluctant to embrace it. I guess I can see people being self conscious about their voice or the fabled Onyxia 'Handle it!' rage on occasion, but for the most part voice chat works exponentially better than trying to type when a mob is eating your face.




Edited, Jun 17th 2012 5:54pm by FilthMcNasty
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#5 Jun 17 2012 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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TLDR version: Things get old when you do them over and over.

When MMOs offer something new, people who have played them for 10 years might get excited about them again.
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#6 Jun 17 2012 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
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^^ i think is totally backwards, every time a MMO trys something new and different, it's the same old people from the XI era that say: "Back in my day, you had to camp 9 years to reach cap and be good at the game, now you have it easy, with you skill requiring fights and your quests"
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#7 Jun 17 2012 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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Everyone has memories of their first MMO stuck in there head being a great experience. However once you've played one you've played them all. I think as players grow older they realize how much time they wasted playing a "game".

As a poster mentioned. Once something truly new to MMO's turns things upside down then you'll see those first time experiences and emotions come back. But again nothing last forever and again we'll be back in the same position. It's the same cycle that comes and goes in real life.
#8 Jun 17 2012 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
A couple of posters mention FFXI and EQ having the best communities.

I didn't really get into EQ, but I'm almost certain XI was regarded as having a great community because of the relentless grind. [/i]


Unlike FFXIV you have played FFXI for more than a few weeks, right?

Alright, why are you almost certain that the FFXI's endless grind made its community so great? I could easily argue that endless grinding bores people and makes them leave a game. So why didn't they? Couldn't it be that the FFXI community was great because:

- it was the first MMO of the franchise
- that it was introduced in a time when them MO genre was relatively new to a lot of players
- played a game designed to collaborate in order to achieve things, which they did since
- many of those players came from Generation X instead of Generation X-Box, the latter being a different type of player?

Don't you think that this combination of factors are more important than your zillionth stab towards SE, the endless grinding? There was a lot of grinding involved, but if it was only that then we wouldn't have so many people who can share a lot of great, funny stories about what they saw of what happened to them in FFXI, or how stupid they were or how they were able to win a certain Burning Circle fight after a series of defeats, or would we?
#9 Jun 17 2012 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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It wasn't the game that made FFXI great, it was the community.

Guys like Calcula and Saskiot, Mii and Misi (Don't forget her mom! :3 )

People like Anerio and Fusionx, Sayl and TamTu

And old friends gone like Mecredi, Dave, Giarc.

People who endeared themselves to the people and the culture that was raised into the first ever Final Fantasy MMO. Yes the fact that the community commiserated with each other did help build this community, you can attribute part of that to the grind. But that doesn't change the fact that it was miserable a good bit of the time.

It wasn't the game itself - it was the people. Anything someone says about it to the contrary missed the point of the game.

Edited, Jun 18th 2012 1:29am by Hyrist
#10 Jun 18 2012 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just going to copy some of the writers comments to show what I took from the piece & what I agree on.

This very column started out as a reflection on the eight things that every good MMORPG must have for success. I agonized over the topic (and for much longer than I know my editor preferred), but I found too many holes in everything I thought of. An open, explorable world? TERA, Lord of the Rings Online, and even Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising have that in some form or another. A fulfilling story? Star Wars: The Old Republic had that in spades, but six months later the limited appeal of adding engrossing storylines on the standard MMORPG experience seems all too apparent. The pieces, it seems, are usually in place; developers just exhibit varying degrees of competence when getting them to work together. But even when they do a decent job, as in Rift, the MMO itself rarely succeeds in snaring new souls like they used to.

At this point, I'm convinced this lack of fulfillment springs from generational differences rather than the design of the games themselves. I'm not saying that younger players can't enjoy or even love MMORPGs, but I do believe the modern gaming world lacks the precise conditions that famously made us slaves to the WoW/EverQuest model in the last decade.

Many contemporary MMORPGs fail or stumble precisely because they try to recapture this world in a gaming environment that no longer supports it. The word of the day is "accessibility" not "cooperation," and that shift threatens the overused EverQuest/World of Warcraft template no matter how well the combat works or how "dynamic" the world is. Turning back the clock is a pretty dream, but it'd never work today. Wikis, related guides, and especially "accessible" raiding modes like WoW's raid finder have removed most of the real mystery of exploration and mastering encounters, so a traditional endgame raiding structure can never hold the wide appeal it once did. The very combat model springs from the demands of primitive connectivity. Since high-speed internet is essentially the norm in 2012, there's little reason to maintain the comparatively unfulfilling tab-targeting combat over more action-based interactions like those in TERA and Vindictus.

To remain relevant, MMORPGs need to become something else entirely.Slapping a free-to-play payment plan on existing models only masks the deficiencies of the aging gameplay and lackluster player interaction, and even when communities are fairly strong, many players seem content to play MMORPGs like single-player games. I personally don't see the point. Attempts to cram a single-player experience into an MMORPG (a la SWTOR and TESO) now seem misguided at best, since they reveal the genre's weaknesses once you deprioritize the social elements. MMORPGs should be about meeting, interacting, and achieving challenging goals with other players; anything else is secondary. To recapture something of that spirit of cooperation, what once passed for endgame gameplay needs to be integrated into the actual leveling experience somehow.

Guild Wars 2 is one such game, and even though I'm still not convinced that the combat is as great or innovative as ArenaNet says, or that the quest structure does much more than removing the actual act of speaking to the questgiver, I can tell it's the kind of game I wouldn't mind logging into for a couple of hours every day. Its attempts to remove the player class "trinity" mark a massive step in the right direction as well. The Secret World also has the right idea with its lack of levels, classes, and traditional gear, although I worry it swings too far in the other direction and runs the risk of losing any sense of reward for achieving goals. With the demands of my post-20-something schedule, I like the feeling that I could drop in after a two-month absence and not feel like I've been left behind.

I found myself thinking that controversial casual-minded features such as group finders, short dungeons, and quick rewards are less aimed at younger players than toward us -- the former hardcore crowd who now juggles gameplay time with families and careers. Blizzard's recent campaign to specifically win back players who've quit only confirms this. It's sad, in a way, like Las Vegas concerts with graying disco stars that try to cash in on an older generation's memories of yesteryear.

I can't see younger players ever latching on to single MMORPGs as we did and that lack of permanence proves disastrous for most communities. Again, the conditions just aren't the same. They might enjoy the leveling process to varying degrees, but the choices offered ensure that we usually can't count on meeting up with most of our friends in a single game like we used to. As such, even MMORPGs' ridiculed role as "action-packed chatrooms" no longer holds the same appeal, especially when common non-gaming distractions such as Twitter fulfill related roles.

My comments: I see alot of what this writer is saying making sense. I'm not expecting many new mmos to offer what he seeks in the near future. Did I outgrow the mmorpg? No, I think it outgrowed me. Maybe I need to ponder getting out of the mmo realm, instead of whining about the inevitable future(wanting to go against the grain of the genre lol.

#11 Jun 18 2012 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
A couple of posters mention FFXI and EQ having the best communities.

I didn't really get into EQ, but I'm almost certain XI was regarded as having a great community because of the relentless grind. [/i]


Unlike FFXIV you have played FFXI for more than a few weeks, right?


I played XIV from shortly after launch until a month after it went to subscription. Unless someone tore a hole in space, that adds up to more than a few weeks.

MrMissile wrote:
Alright, why are you almost certain that the FFXI's endless grind made its community so great? I could easily argue that endless grinding bores people and makes them leave a game. So why didn't they?


Obvious reasons. If you took a few more seconds before boiling over after you read my post(like you do after reading all of my posts), you probably could have put it together on your own.

As for why people didn't quit... they did. They didn't chase everyone off, but there were many people who quickly realized after trying XI that they wouldn't be able to commit the time it took to complete what would be a simple task(by today's standards) such as leveling up. Nevermind the grind for AF2, crafting, abjuration gear and HNM drops or a relic weapon.

MrMissile wrote:
Don't you think that this combination of factors are more important than your zillionth stab towards SE, the endless grinding?


Is it a 'stab' if it's the truth? Perhaps, but the grind was a grind and I'll call it what it was. I played XI and I didn't mind it, but I have sh*t to do today.

MrMissile wrote:
There was a lot of grinding involved, but if it was only that then we wouldn't have so many people who can share a lot of great, funny stories about what they saw of what happened to them in FFXI, or how stupid they were or how they were able to win a certain Burning Circle fight after a series of defeats, or would we?

It wasn't only grind, but it was mostly grind. Being that I played from shortly after NA release I can say with confidence that the majority of my time was spent grinding. I spent my young XI life grinding levels. After I decided on my favorite jobs I spent more time grinding the appropriate subjob levels. Once I reached the cap I spent time grinding merit points. When I was reasonably satisfied by that grind, I decided to grind combat and magic skillups. It wasn't enough. I needed more. Give me some weaponskill points to grind. Who gives a sh*t if the weaponskills are worthless right?

I took a break from all that grinding of levels, merits and skillups to grind some gil. For some odd reason, as if all that grinding wasn't enough, I was grinding gil so I could grind crafting levels. Go figure. If I wasn't grinding those then I was grinding dynamis because I like to get my grind on in the dark Smiley: sly

My thirst for grind was still not quenched. SE ****-blocked my dynamis grind with a lockout so I had to find other events with lockout to grind. Occasionally I like to grind on furniture so I went to Nyzul to grind some lamps. Still not enough. SE switched it up and required that you grind assault so that you could grind salvage. @#%^ing brilliant. Take my ******* money please.

Do you get the point or shall I continue? Because I can. I can go all @#%^ing day.

Love it or hate it, the grind is responsible for the community because it was an integral part of the game. When it takes months to cap a single job out of 16 and you could spend hours, days, weeks or even months leveling in the same few camps, you start to see the same faces in the same camps. You form a bond first out of familiarity and then out of necessity. These are the people you'll be relying on to carry you through the subjob quest, the airship key farming, the nation missions, the limit breaks ect.

I know you think it's your job to police the forums and call me out on everything I post that you feel paints SE or any of their games in a negative light, it really isn't. This is something you could have put together yourself if you'd actually given it thought instead of springing to the defense on SE despite the fact they don't need it.

You have a pretty low post count and believe me, I only point this out because I'd estimate that a good percentage of your posts are in response to me my puppet, but you should learn the basic features of this forum. Since I'm the helpful type, I'll give you a good bit of info you might not know. If you mouse-over my name and then click the 'Ignore' link (look for the circle with a slash through it), then you don't have to read anything I post ever unless you actually want to. This feature was made specifically for people just like you. People who can't accept the fact that other people have opinions that don't align with theirs and who can't be bothered to ignore something or read it without replying. Enjoy the rest of your stay.

Edited, Jun 18th 2012 2:51am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#12 Jun 18 2012 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Love it or hate it, the grind is responsible for the community because it was an integral part of the game. When it takes months to cap a single job out of 16 and you could spend hours, days, weeks or even months leveling in the same few camps, you start to see the same faces in the same camps. You form a bond first out of familiarity and then out of necessity. These are the people you'll be relying on to carry you through the subjob quest, the airship key farming, the nation missions, the limit breaks ect.


Are you claiming that the sole reason that FFXI had a good community was because of the long grind? What about the other grind heavy MMOs, like Runescape or World of Warcraft?
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#13 Jun 18 2012 at 2:28 AM Rating: Default
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Are you claiming that the sole reason that FFXI had a good community was because of the long grind? What about the other grind heavy MMOs, like Runescape or World of Warcraft?

There is grind in all games and I can't speak on Runescape because I didn't play, but nothing about WoW comes close to the general area which might be construed as the vicinity of grind that XI offered. Am I missing the sarcasm here or something? I played both games extensively so there is no way in **** you can convince me otherwise, I would just like to know if you're genuinely that disillusioned to believe something so ridiculous.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#14 Jun 18 2012 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Arrgh. Arrrrgh. I am unwilling to accept this conclusion. I know that I never felt "left behind" or "outcast from the edgame" in FFXIV, although it took me almost 2 years to reach level 75 back then; also, I doubt that the time spent grinding alone is (wholly) responsible for the better community, although it may have been a contributing ingredient. Another element (that is seriously lacking in FFXIV) was the need for coordination before skillchains and magic bursts were replaced with spamming, and - I hate to admit it - the generally slower pace of camp-based combat, which allowed for between-pull chatter and even some snippets of conversation during fights. Not to mention that FFXI also required you to actually play the game, since powerleveling was in no way as easy as in FFXIV.

What a great assist for my usual rant about how all the "freedom" to play the game solo or in groups or as a tanking whitemage sorcerer thief destroyed the "R" in RPG. Because everyone demands to be "the ultimate badass" who is able to conveniently fill every spot and adapt to all circumstances in the blink of an eye, there is no more need to cooperate, and no more sense of identity. In FFXI, I was "the monk" in my small LS. "The monk" was a dumb Galka with fists of steel, a tender heart, and the predisposition to squish Tarutarus. I was great at beating the crap out of things. I was **** at range, and helpless in Balista when bound without a team to back me up. In other words: without my team, I was ****. But that was o.k. Because my team was **** without me.
#15 Jun 18 2012 at 5:23 AM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Arrgh. Arrrrgh. I am unwilling to accept this conclusion. I know that I never felt "left behind" or "outcast from the edgame" in FFXIV, although it took me almost 2 years to reach level 75 back then; also, I doubt that the time spent grinding alone is (wholly) responsible for the better community, although it may have been a contributing ingredient.


I think the problem is that people are taking the word grind as some sort of dirty word. The underlying point is that because there was so much time spent regardless of what you were doing; whether it be forming a group and partying for exp, making a group and completing a mission, making an alliance for an O hat or just gathering in Rulude before Dyna Jeuno... you're spending a ******** more time with the same people than you probably would in most any other game.

Rinsui wrote:
Another element (that is seriously lacking in FFXIV) was the need for coordination before skillchains and magic bursts were replaced with spamming, and - I hate to admit it - the generally slower pace of camp-based combat, which allowed for between-pull chatter and even some snippets of conversation during fights.

Not even buying the SC/MB crap Rin. This took a grand total of 2 minutes for someone to 'coordinate'...

"Hey BLM, do you have Blizzard? Awesome, lets do distortion SC..." /looks at SC chart for a whopping 20 seconds
"Ok DRG you will open the SC with Double Thrust and SAM you close with Tachi: Enpi for the win! Let's own these... crabs? Again?!"

The only other coordination required was having one macro that displayed your TP, usually accompanied by some nonsense about an obscure anime I'd never seen and an emote, and another macro to fire off your weaponskill. BLMs had to not be blind and know how to count possibly as high as 5. C'mon man, really? Coordination? If you say so...
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#16 Jun 18 2012 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Do you get the point or shall I continue? Because I can. I can go all @#%^ing day.


That's the problem with you, Mr. "I want FFXIV to succeed so that's why I advice people not to start playing it now", cause you can indeed go on all day long till your opponent will eventually stop posting! In fact, that's how you think you can win a debate.

Hundreds of posts - worth God knows how many hours - about a game you do not even play. It would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad. Seriously.
#17 Jun 18 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

It's the way technology has progressed, yet many seem so reluctant to embrace it. I guess I can see people being self conscious about their voice or the fabled Onyxia 'Handle it!' rage on occasion, but for the most part voice chat works exponentially better than trying to type when a mob is eating your face.

I think it's because it damages the immersion/RP experience. When I play an ORPG I like to imagine I'm really in the game and try and forget the fact that I'm in my room sitting in front of my PC and interacting with other nerds over a network connection. Voice chat breaks that illusion, and frankly, I find it can be quite irksome. Example: when I was playing XIV with a friend who generally plays MMOs "to win", he'd demand to use voice chat constantly, even for trivial things like grinding mobs. When doing relatively easy stuff (which almost all events in MMOs are, sorry), I like to chill out and chat to people in my party, without having to listen to some highly strung armchair general.

Back to the original topic: I never really enjoyed playing against a computer AI in any genre that much, so much of my single player game collection has gone unplayed. If I do enjoy a single player game, it's usually because of the story or the characters. For multiplayer games, the attraction for me is either the competitive aspect (eg. FPS/RTS) or the immersion/group role playing aspect (MMOs). Never have I played an MMO because I thought the gameplay was inherently interesting. Though I'm older, I don't think my tastes have changed at all. I looked up information all the time when I was playing XI so I don't think that's the reason I don't get into recent MMOs much. I still have plenty of time to play, so that's not a reason either. For me, the only reason I haven't played an MMO lately is because I was planning to commit to XIV, but found it was too solo oriented for me compared to XI and there was hardly any sense of community, so I ended up quitting.

Edited, Jun 18th 2012 1:37pm by Dizmo
#18 Jun 18 2012 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Arrgh. Arrrrgh. I am unwilling to accept this conclusion. I know that I never felt "left behind" or "outcast from the edgame" in FFXIV, although it took me almost 2 years to reach level 75 back then; also, I doubt that the time spent grinding alone is (wholly) responsible for the better community, although it may have been a contributing ingredient.


I think the problem is that people are taking the word grind as some sort of dirty word. The underlying point is that because there was so much time spent regardless of what you were doing; whether it be forming a group and partying for exp, making a group and completing a mission, making an alliance for an O hat or just gathering in Rulude before Dyna Jeuno... you're spending a sh*tload more time with the same people than you probably would in most any other game.

Rinsui wrote:
Another element (that is seriously lacking in FFXIV) was the need for coordination before skillchains and magic bursts were replaced with spamming, and - I hate to admit it - the generally slower pace of camp-based combat, which allowed for between-pull chatter and even some snippets of conversation during fights.

Not even buying the SC/MB crap Rin. This took a grand total of 2 minutes for someone to 'coordinate'...

"Hey BLM, do you have Blizzard? Awesome, lets do distortion SC..." /looks at SC chart for a whopping 20 seconds
"Ok DRG you will open the SC with Double Thrust and SAM you close with Tachi: Enpi for the win! Let's own these... crabs? Again?!"

The only other coordination required was having one macro that displayed your TP, usually accompanied by some nonsense about an obscure anime I'd never seen and an emote, and another macro to fire off your weaponskill. BLMs had to not be blind and know how to count possibly as high as 5. C'mon man, really? Coordination? If you say so...

That grind associated with everything in old school mmos is what made you bond Filth. Is it right or fair to place that tough love on players? No, that's why XI never put a dent in the newer form mmos with more accessibility sub wise. The writer even agrees with that but also says an modern mmo attempting that disservices it's players or won't work.

No game is rocket science & neither was XI. But it did try and make players coordinate tactics. It could have been more developed later on and made good with various enemy characteristics globally.
#19 Jun 18 2012 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know if that translates to FFXI and FFXIV fans. It seems to me that a large percentage of XI and XIV players play only their MMO, mostly ignoring all other games. A lot of players of other MMOs kind of play off and on, as a supplement to other games. I think that article is more directed towards those people.
#20 Jun 18 2012 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Opinions vary wildly on this, so I doubt any consensus can be reached easily.

But I do agree, in principle, on what the article is saying. The Internet itself has changed dramatically since the first MMOs appeared. An "exploratory" MMO is next to impossible to pull off in a world where informational tools like wikis, databases, Youtube videos, and forums make it easy to disseminate everything about the MMO without actually playing it and discovering it for yourself. You no longer need a team of devoted hardcore players to work out how to win a boss fight. You just need to watch the Youtube "bragging rights" video of a team of devoted hardcore players winning the boss fight, and grab a random team of people you don't know, but who all know how to mimic the routine.

MMOs no longer emphasize teamwork, but access. No longer is there the permanence of community, but of individuals short on time and attention. That said, it would be impossible to reverse the trend. The environment of exclusively committing to one of few available MMOs no longer exists.
#21 Jun 18 2012 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I didn't really get into EQ, but I'm almost certain XI was regarded as having a great community because of the relentless grind.


FFXI had a great community because.... nope, I don't agree. It had a decent enough community, but I never felt the same way as everyone else that held the community on this pedestal.

The community was civil, because it was the first big MMO to focus on players having 1 character that could play all classes. If you were a jerk, you couldn't just switch to your warrior character. You got a reputation, good or bad.

It was a community that kept many people from being outright jerks to each other, but it still had it's terribleness and in some instances, the most elitism I've seen. Maybe it's because my main was puppetmaster.... but you just try finding a Bard for your merit party, and then tell me how great the community was.

In other mmos, the community was just absent, but I feel that the single character was FFXI and FFXIV's strongest facet. You recognized people, and didn't have to send out a mass email to all your friends every time you wanted to try a new class.
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#22 Jun 18 2012 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
FFXI had a great community because.... nope, I don't agree. It had a decent enough community, but I never felt the same way as everyone else that held the community on this pedestal.

The community was civil, because it was the first big MMO to focus on players having 1 character that could play all classes. If you were a jerk, you couldn't just switch to your warrior character. You got a reputation, good or bad.

It was a community that kept many people from being outright jerks to each other, but it still had it's terribleness and in some instances, the most elitism I've seen. Maybe it's because my main was puppetmaster.... but you just try finding a Bard for your merit party, and then tell me how great the community was.

In other mmos, the community was just absent, but I feel that the single character was FFXI and FFXIV's strongest facet. You recognized people, and didn't have to send out a mass email to all your friends every time you wanted to try a new class.


This.

I really wish people would stop looking at the forced cooperation in FFXI through rose-colored glasses and stop pretending it was this incredible era of happiness and playing with friends.

It wasn't.

You camped on top of other people simply because there was nowhere else to go and you'll be damned if you spent the last two hours getting a party ready just so you can disband, so you took that 2K an hour begrudgingly since Dunes/Jungles/Nest/Citadel/etc. were all over populated at the time. You leveled the class that was popular or you sat your *** in Jeuno for a year (or more) because you were "useless" to the populace. People MPKed each other as much as they could get away with, griefed the **** out of others for the pure joy, and treated each other as lesser beings if they didn't farm for months to afford a +1 piece (that barely did anything in the grand scheme of things due to FFXI's screwed up formulae).

You fought with the Japanese when it came to endgame and they gleefully heralded their original claims over us due to server/client lag and would hold that HNM until it was back into their own prime time. You then created bots to combat the behavior and it spiraled into pretty much every other aspect of the game. Didn't know a step on a quest or was behind? Well, you were obviously a moron because no one else on the server ever made such a mistake. That character didn't have the best of gear (but obviously still passable) and just wanted to have fun? To **** with that, weak people shouldn't slow you down with their 0.02 less DPS (oh sorry FFXI players have to have unique terms and phrases for everything, I meant to say "0.02 less damage dealing potential")!

FFXI's community is akin to a teenager with bipolar disorder. There's nothing pretty about it because what good there was is overshadowed by immense nastiness that even the 'kiddies in WoW' would be amazed at seeing. Final Fantasy XI had an average community at best and down-right brutal at worst. FFXI's community still tries to loudly proclaim it was the first with an Auction House (it wasn't, and a blind bidding system isn't an AH anyway). It's full of delusion and spite.

ALL MMOs have utterly average (i.e. terrible) communities because they all have one thing in common: they are comprised of humans. Add humans, get instant disgusting behavior. Deluding yourselves into thinking X game was better overall than Y game is simply lying.

Edited, Jun 18th 2012 3:53pm by Viertel

Edited, Jun 18th 2012 3:55pm by Viertel
#23 Jun 18 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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My 0.02$ on that article:

Currently you have 2 generations, trying to find common ground, and it's not working as intended. We have the gamers pre 1990's, and the gamers post 1990's (in terms of DoB). So you have people from 2 different worlds, trying to agree on the same thing... Well it's not that we got old for MMO's it's that company's are trying to please both, and splitting it 50/50 and it's not going to happen. Reason EQ, XI were as they were was that they required massive time, dedication, and that there's no "i" in team. While WoW introduced the more relaxing gaming aspect, were my GF's brother could play 6 years ago (he was 12), and it was not a punishing as EQ or XI. With modern day games, the reason why many are unable to float for long is not hard... they are split, so you have the soft bellies crying on one side, and the seasoned gamers shouting "nothing to do" on the other.

What the gaming companies need to see is that they need to target an audience and make the product appealing to them. Not just make a general game, with not a drop of originality and call it "good enough". Lately all game's MMO, and other wise (let's not fool our self), with a hand full of exceptions, have been that. "Let's appeal to every one" well how would you imagine that would work out? What a 12 year old wants isn't what a 22 wants and so on. The article is a nice read, but it's still only another "i my opinion", "based on my experienced", "from what i seen", exc type a deal.
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#24 Jun 18 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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^^ Yep. I had all of those experiences.

I also had really great ones, and I think the defining factor is you had one character. Yes, that scumbag bard replied "I'm a moron" (Wow, LOL Pup filter still in place) when I invited them to party. But guess what, I knew who that was, told my ls, they all knew who he was, and after I grabbed another Brd with a better attitude, I still saw the princess Brd LFG after we disbanded.

My point is, I don't think FFXI's community was any better or worse than others, it was just perceived better because you got to know people, good and bad, under 1 name.

Edited, Jun 18th 2012 4:51pm by Louiscool
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#25 Jun 18 2012 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
I really wish people would stop looking at the forced cooperation in FFXI through rose-colored glasses and stop pretending it was this incredible era of happiness and playing with friends.

It wasn't.


Agreed. Perhaps the good times stuck out a bit more because they were an oasis in the sea, but people can't force themselves outside of being a fan for long enough to realize they were stranded on the island.

Louiscool wrote:
I knew who that was, told my ls, they all knew who he was, and after I grabbed another Brd with a better attitude, I still saw the princess Brd LFG after we disbanded.


It's kinda sad that these are things in the game that you remember. You held a grudge against someone for wanting to play the game the way they wanted to. Most people would have just moved on to the next support job looking for a group rather than try to stain someone's rep. It's no different than the 'JP orny' /seacom really. Did your LS have a long list of Japanese players who were douchebags too?


Edited, Jun 18th 2012 5:04pm by FilthMcNasty
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#26 Jun 18 2012 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmm,

Time is an issue these days because I'm older and have more responsibilities and real-life friendships to hold dear, but I got plenty of time to play really.... I still play videogames 2-3 hours daily and that's with everyone happy and me doing the things I'm supposed to do. Outgrown MMO's? Me personally, kinda, but not really. I still have contact with most people I have played with in FFXI and meet them IRL. Yes, Facebook does wonders for me to maintain these friendships, do they evolve into something more than I had in FFXI? No, but it doesn't mean those kind of friendships are any different to me than real life friendships. It really depends on who you are and what you perceive people to be in whatever way you are communicating with them, be that someone you know, someone you play with or someone coming close to a real-life friend.

I can remember fondly the people I played with and who left the game at a certain point or switched servers, I do know their names. What I remember most was to have fun, and to be quite honest, it was the casual loitering/raiding/hardcore grinding and sharing stories with these people that I really enjoyed to do. In fact, I had MORE fun when I wasn't in a hardcore HNM/endgame ls. So to me, it's all about the story/atmosphere/friendly people/gameplay and overall immersion of the game. That is no difference with single-player games. FFXI was my only MMO and yes, there were quite a bit of features and grinding that I didn't like, however, when doing it my ingame friends, everything became a lot more fun to do. I remember teaching Moncus how to kite as a SMN in CoP missions (3-2?) or inviting people to farm Prime avatars and show them how to do it. Heck, I even proclaimed myself Promyvion captain back when it was still the original difficulty and helped out almost with every shout in Aht Uhrghan.... That's how I met new people and made friends with a lot of players who ended up in different hardcore HNM/egls. Finding people to help out wasn't hard either, I just contacted the leaders of those ls and asked if they had people that needed to do the mission or wanted to help out. Yes, reputation was everything to me, because it made the game so much more accessible. In fact, in the end, I did most missions with weird setups, trying to defeat everything with what jobs were available. My best victories were undermanned and odd setups, too bad some players were too elite to try anything. Fun and as much perfection as you can get, that was the spirit! Soon as people knew that, I could almost get anyone to join our team, if you could follow orders, we could get the job done, simple as that.

I would be lying if I would say I don't miss those days, I had loads of fun back then. Thing is, you need an MMO that motivates people to group together and enough people interested to play together, once you lose either or a game doesn't attract much players, you're done for nowadays.
I hope FFXIV 2.0 can at least come close to the experience I had when I started playing FFXI in 2006, it was balanced enough cause of the new Aht Uhrghan add-on and it offered a huge amount of storyline for new players to go through. Even Wings of the Goddess had enough storylines (eventually) to be entertaining, though they copy/pasted maps from the beginner areas. For me, it went downhill when there wasn't enough new content or quests to keep me entertained, raiding wasn't exactly fun. I'll probably play FFXIV 2.0 till I get bored/when I'm done with all storylines and have done most of the quests. I hope that takes a long time till I'm through all that :) And Smn would make my day ^^.

TLDR: I got plenty of time to play, not the amount I used to have, but enough. Friendships and helping out people, which lead to new friendships, plus the reputation that I had (If you're a good enough player, you can join; if you can follow orders when we have weird job setups, newbie or not, you are quite welcome too), made it easy to get help from the best players and the nicest players. That is necessary for me to make a MMO worthwhile to play. That way, I will not outgrow the MMO.



Edited, Jun 19th 2012 1:16am by MonarctheFirst
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#27 Jun 19 2012 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry I didnt read everyone post, but I have long believed that FFXI's community was as good as it was because you used one name one character one avatar one toon or whatever you want to call it, sans those who 2,3,4,5 boxed. In every other MMO I have played you needed more then one if you wanted to try out a different class so now you have lots of alts. If you was a dbag in FFXI it stuck with you. In these other MMOs you just simply get on an alt and tada! no on knows who you are! so you could be as Dbagy as you wanted to be. And since it was easy and pretty much free to make as many alts as you wanted on as many servers as you wanted there was no need to be loyal to nice anyone.

Just my $0.02
#28 Jun 19 2012 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Louiscool wrote:
I knew who that was, told my ls, they all knew who he was, and after I grabbed another Brd with a better attitude, I still saw the princess Brd LFG after we disbanded.


It's kinda sad that these are things in the game that you remember. You held a grudge against someone for wanting to play the game the way they wanted to. Most people would have just moved on to the next support job looking for a group rather than try to stain someone's rep. It's no different than the 'JP orny' /seacom really. Did your LS have a long list of Japanese players who were douchebags too?


I think you're misreading me here.

It's not some weird grudge we with a blacklist. We recognized these people. I would say something to my LS like "Great, invited a brd and he said 'LOL Pup' and disbanded" and other LS members would be like "Was it XSqualX??"

Do I care that someone wants to play a specific way? No. But if the community was so great, he would have just replied "Thanks for the offer but i have to pass." Instead he and many others just douched it up.

Filth, I get the idea you were one of the people I'm talking about here...
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#29 Jun 19 2012 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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#30 Jun 19 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Default
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There was no skill in FFXI or EQ just saying lol
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#31 Jun 19 2012 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's skill in every game. To say there isn't makes you look silly.

If there wasn't skill, you would never hear someone complain about their bad PUG, and we would all have everything and never lose a battle and quit playing games.

Paying attention IS a skill, not everyone has it.
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#32 Jun 19 2012 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Paying attention IS a skill, not everyone has it.

Technically, you may be right; it's just that for most of us, the word "skill" implies something above the level of what is required in primary school.
#33 Jun 19 2012 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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MonarctheFirst wrote:
Hmmm,

Time is an issue these days because I'm older and have more responsibilities and real-life friendships to hold dear, but I got plenty of time to play really.... I still play videogames 2-3 hours daily and that's with everyone happy and me doing the things I'm supposed to do. Outgrown MMO's? Me personally, kinda, but not really. I still have contact with most people I have played with in FFXI and meet them IRL. Yes, Facebook does wonders for me to maintain these friendships, do they evolve into something more than I had in FFXI? No, but it doesn't mean those kind of friendships are any different to me than real life friendships. It really depends on who you are and what you perceive people to be in whatever way you are communicating with them, be that someone you know, someone you play with or someone coming close to a real-life friend.

I can remember fondly the people I played with and who left the game at a certain point or switched servers, I do know their names. What I remember most was to have fun, and to be quite honest, it was the casual loitering/raiding/hardcore grinding and sharing stories with these people that I really enjoyed to do. In fact, I had MORE fun when I wasn't in a hardcore HNM/endgame ls. So to me, it's all about the story/atmosphere/friendly people/gameplay and overall immersion of the game. That is no difference with single-player games. FFXI was my only MMO and yes, there were quite a bit of features and grinding that I didn't like, however, when doing it my ingame friends, everything became a lot more fun to do. I remember teaching Moncus how to kite as a SMN in CoP missions (3-2?) or inviting people to farm Prime avatars and show them how to do it. Heck, I even proclaimed myself Promyvion captain back when it was still the original difficulty and helped out almost with every shout in Aht Uhrghan.... That's how I met new people and made friends with a lot of players who ended up in different hardcore HNM/egls. Finding people to help out wasn't hard either, I just contacted the leaders of those ls and asked if they had people that needed to do the mission or wanted to help out. Yes, reputation was everything to me, because it made the game so much more accessible. In fact, in the end, I did most missions with weird setups, trying to defeat everything with what jobs were available. My best victories were undermanned and odd setups, too bad some players were too elite to try anything. Fun and as much perfection as you can get, that was the spirit! Soon as people knew that, I could almost get anyone to join our team, if you could follow orders, we could get the job done, simple as that.

I would be lying if I would say I don't miss those days, I had loads of fun back then. Thing is, you need an MMO that motivates people to group together and enough people interested to play together, once you lose either or a game doesn't attract much players, you're done for nowadays.
I hope FFXIV 2.0 can at least come close to the experience I had when I started playing FFXI in 2006, it was balanced enough cause of the new Aht Uhrghan add-on and it offered a huge amount of storyline for new players to go through. Even Wings of the Goddess had enough storylines (eventually) to be entertaining, though they copy/pasted maps from the beginner areas. For me, it went downhill when there wasn't enough new content or quests to keep me entertained, raiding wasn't exactly fun. I'll probably play FFXIV 2.0 till I get bored/when I'm done with all storylines and have done most of the quests. I hope that takes a long time till I'm through all that :) And Smn would make my day ^^.

TLDR: I got plenty of time to play, not the amount I used to have, but enough. Friendships and helping out people, which lead to new friendships, plus the reputation that I had (If you're a good enough player, you can join; if you can follow orders when we have weird job setups, newbie or not, you are quite welcome too), made it easy to get help from the best players and the nicest players. That is necessary for me to make a MMO worthwhile to play. That way, I will not outgrow the MMO.



Edited, Jun 19th 2012 1:16am by MonarctheFirst


Almost this^

Even when I had hours to play, I didn't really progress in FFXI. I had fun joining JP groups in off hours, meeting random people, witnessing acts of kindness and just being apart of a world.

I think there has to be a part of oneself to "let go" of the real world to then be absorbed into another world. And as you get older, that becomes harder and harder to do. Your attention is divided and therefore, this is when "casual" comes into play. One then doesn't get absorbed into the other world and decides she hates MMOs now.

After seeing FFXIV and all of the troubles it has had so far I think that immersion and casual just don't go together. I don't think I'll ever enjoy a game as much as I've enjoyed FFXI.

You need things like forced grouping to take on monumental tasks.

Teamwork and skill, and penalties for death.

One character/same name for reputation.

Endless grinding to buy things or to progress.

Long travel times/create space in the world.

And all of this adds up to a hardcore game. A game that devs don't want to make, and a game people don't want to play.

And another game like the OG FFXI is a game I couldn't and wouldn't want to play now.

I'm still waiting for GW2 and even FFXIV 2.0 but I doubt either of them will give me what I'd like to see in an MMO.



#34 Jun 19 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Paying attention IS a skill, not everyone has it.

Technically, you may be right; it's just that for most of us, the word "skill" implies something above the level of what is required in primary school.


"Most of us" meaning all 8 people on this forum?

In all my years playing online games, mmo and otherwise, I have come to the conclusion that paying attention is indeed a highly sought skill that is found in the minority of players.

Let me translate this phrase for you:

"XXXX game doesn't take any skill!"

Translation:

"I want to sound like I have so much skill that I consider this game to be beneath my expertise. Does anyone like me?"

It's an overused phrase, and while you may not mean exactly that, that's how most people read it. What game does take skill then? I can argue that NO games take skill, unless you are an EMPLOYED Q/A tester. In my definition of skill, it a trade that you can leverage in a life setting. Finger Dexterity is only a skill if you're a watch maker or a pickpocket.

Tell me of a game that you consider to take "skill" and I'll argue against it. Then everyone will know how cool I am because that game is beneath me.
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#35 Jun 19 2012 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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I agree with the lack of skill required in most MMO's... people that thought FFXI was hardcore and required skill to paly were deluding themselves. Memorizing button combinations and getting good at timing is not what I require skill... the only skill I would give any credit for was not rage-quitting after watching some newb go 1/1 on the Theif's Knife in the old days after you had been camping it every waking hour for 3 months :P

Seriously though, I think the big issue with MMO's is that they are designed to be for an online community... and in general, online communities are filled with jerks and d-bags that hide behind the protection of a computer screen. Older MMO's were successful because it was a new concept and communities thrived due to the sense of wonder it produced... now it is hard to find games that AREN'T MMO's, and since everyone is complacent, they disregard social niceties and are only playing the games in a self-serving manner. All this does is alienate the community aspect of the games and pushes people further away from socialization. I've been playing FFXIV for almost 2 months now and have yet to have anyone outside of my group of friends say anything to me, including when I ask if people in a similar level range want to group up (at the camp). Totally different from when I started FFXI and I had 5 people welcome me within the first 10 minutes of playing the game, and one person give me a quest item and run me to the person to hand it to... telling me this was a decent way to get some early cash if I wanted. Times have changed... that is for sure, and I don't see MMO's getting any better.
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#36 Jun 19 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grind is fine as long as it's a fun grind. There's a reason I sunk 150 hours into FFX - I enjoyed the tactical nature of the combat, and that encouraged me to grind my way long past the point I could have finished the game. (I came home one day after work to find my husband had grown tired of my grind and was watching the final cutscene without me. I think that was the most furious I've ever been at him, which means we actually have a pretty good relationship overall, come to think of it...)

The group grinding in FFXI was also fun, at least when you had a decent party. The sweet, sweet satisfaction of getting your THF lined up just so and executing a perfect SATA... Yeah. That glorious moment when you hit chain 7 at level 60 for the first time before the mages had to fall down, completely drained of MP. Then, later on, the satisfaction of hitting chain 300 on colibri...

If an MMO can make the grind not just necessary, but enjoyable, then it will find success even in today's saturated market. Unfortunately, very few game developers can hit that sweet spot.
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#37 Jun 19 2012 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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The grind varied from clique to clique, event to event, honestly.

I could spend hours upon hours in campaign and not care a bit that it was repetitiveness, but stick in in a 'refrech prz' party and I was done inside an hour.

Princess Brds and Rdms were ones I typically despised because they perpetrated the 'go hard or go home' mentality that pushed away so many players year after year.

But it was the fact that people missed their friends that kept drawing them back. Sure, some of the long-waited-for changes to the game also enticed some who were on the fence to begin with. But every time you were on the outside looking it, it was conversations from impassioned individuals loving the game that finally got the resubscribe button clicked.

And some of us have the gaul to call those people mindless fanboys that will take whatever shovel-ware given to them. There's being critical about a game, and hating. It's my opinion that hatred should be a disease that proves fatal if someone tries to nurture it - though that's because murder is illegal in most places.

In the end you can't separate the game's community form the game itself. If 2.0 is vastly better, and the community is utterly miserable, it won't be as successful as if 2.0 was moderately better and it's community is warm and welcoming.

However, keeping players? There needs to be a long-term investment, things to do. FFXI did this with grinding, but this was an old solution for an older time, and that trope just isn't flying anymore. But going too far in the opposite direction is also just as bad, as it gives players nothing to invest in.

Idealy, there needs to be room to grow, a way to gradually work and see the progressive improvements instead of 'work work work work work, oh hey I got lucky with the RNG, now I'm leet!'

Even something as simple as being able to progressively improve your living domain, or guild domain (Here's an idea. If you kill an epic world boss, you get to mount its effing head on your guildhall wall!). Also giving people a reason for going back to the same content for new loot or new experiences. (Current Primals have no reason to go back and do them again when you have all the weapons, save for Ifrit who's weapons can now be traded in for GCS).

We haven't outgrown MMOs so much as outgrown many old MMO tropes that game companies keep throwing at us again and again. There needs to be new ways to keep players engaged in the long term without making the game itself repeditive in the wrong ways.

That's not to say eliminate repetition, Diablo III still works off of many of the Diablo II tropes. But make it so the gameplay is enjoyable enough to play repeatedly with long term goals still being steadily met.

The community, however, well everyone's of differing opinions on how that should improve.
#38 Jun 19 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
And some of us have the gaul to call those people mindless fanboys that will take whatever shovel-ware given to them. There's being critical about a game, and hating. It's my opinion that hatred should be a disease that proves fatal if someone tries to nurture it - though that's because murder is illegal in most places.


Reminds me of a Cherokee saying,

"Hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die."
#39 Jun 19 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
There was no skill in FFXI or EQ just saying lol


Please! In some other thread you made it perfectly clear that you have a hard time making some money in FFXIV. I do not think you are the right person to tell anyone anything about skill.
#40 Jun 19 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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My great grandmother was Cherokee. (Not that you can tell by looking at me. But defiantly visible in my dad and grandma.)

Guess it's where I get that sensibility from.
#41 Jun 19 2012 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Tell me of a game that you consider to take "skill" and I'll argue against it. Then everyone will know how cool I am because that game is beneath me.

You've already admitted you play XI and XIV Lou. They'll just think you're a dumbass.
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#42 Jun 19 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Default
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MrMissile wrote:
Ostia wrote:
There was no skill in FFXI or EQ just saying lol


Please! In some other thread you made it perfectly clear that you have a hard time making some money in FFXIV. I do not think you are the right person to tell anyone anything about skill.


Because making money in FFXIV requires skills ? Funny i have a million gil already and i started not more than a week, yes i did struggle for the first 15 levels, but it had nothing to do with skills, it had everything to do with not knowing that certain NPC in the market wards and in the bar sold low level gear for a lower price, unless finding a bargain is a skill, then STFU!! Or are you saying farming sheepskin is a skill ? Really ? Grinding a skill ? Again really ?

Btw: Somebody was showing me earlier today how broken power level is at camp lake with them raptors, i got 11 skins of them, i dint even move an inch or pressed a key, i will make around 120K off that, THAT IS SKILLS BRAH!

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#43 Jun 19 2012 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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No game requires great skill to play. A great game requires great skill to master. What is skill in a videogame? It isn't just one aspect, but a collection of aspects in a whole. Skill in a videogame has the same requirements as a skill in real life.

Knowledge, preperation, practice, precognition, precision, communication & adaptability. Posessing one of these does not make you a master. And nothing is ever truly mastered. I don't care so much if a game is rocket science. Most likely it will not be. I just want a game that requires enough of those traits, that I can't advance further without some degree of attention to each of those concepts.

What I truly want is player synergy, not just in combat. But every aspect that has me interacting in a social environment. I don't need to flex my epeen on a non synergistic level. Not even in PvP. If I want to flex that, I have many regular multiplayer games for that. Provide me depth & some semblance of a need to coordinate with others in every content. The free company system has the potential to do that if they apply that in a "Little piece contributing to something larger progressive manner".

The writer in that article mentions wanting a different way to level. Well I want to level just like I did in offline FF, but with multiplayer. Instead of grinding on open world weaker mobs or repeat instanced bosses to level. I want to start off on a journey grinding weaker mobs on my way to the Crystal Tower(The active/passive pt mechanic & armory system supports this). Then upon arriving solve puzzles, defeat weaker mobs, mid bosses, party divided branches, with an epic boss at the end. The whole trip would require team coordination, stamina, & resolve.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1450

As for those journey missions... ow about this: The destinations of journey missions could have one thing in common: normal Aetheryte travel is not possible, because certain circumstances either hinder the connection of that place's Aetheryte crystal to the network, or because there isn't an Aetheryte to begin with, as Such the goal of these missions is to either establish contact with the isolated Aetheryte or even errect a new one. As such, you will be given a few temporal Mini Aetheryte crystals that can be used as beacons, creating checkpoints. If you set one, you can travel back and forth between the checkpoints so you can either do the whole journey at once, or set up a checkpoint and call it a day. once you have enough time to continue, you go on, till the next checkpoint and so on. These temporal mini aetherytes would only be good for a certain amount of time, let's say 1-2 weeks. you'd have to finish the whole quest or at least progress to the next checkpoint within that timeframe, or you'd have to start over.

This way, we'D still have a long mission that requires preparation and planning, but it isn't as straining on the Players real-life schedule as if it had to be done in one go. Because it'S way easier to schedule a small 30-60 minute run after working hours than an hourlong event that could take up the participants whole weekend.
"First, I was fine. I was calm. Then I couRAGED" - Green Power Rager

Goddammit, it's been a long time. SE, don't make me regret buying XIV. HEAVE HO!

Zaccarias
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Applying these waypoint/check points spanning across multiple game days. The game would go old school FF/Dark Souls on our ***. The only way to recover durability, mana, etc. Would be at these checkpoints or inside a cabin/tent.
#44 Jun 19 2012 at 10:45 PM Rating: Default
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87 posts
Ostia wrote:
MrMissile wrote:
Ostia wrote:
There was no skill in FFXI or EQ just saying lol


Please! In some other thread you made it perfectly clear that you have a hard time making some money in FFXIV. I do not think you are the right person to tell anyone anything about skill.


Because making money in FFXIV requires skills ? Funny i have a million gil already and i started not more than a week, yes i did struggle for the first 15 levels, but it had nothing to do with skills, it had everything to do with not knowing that certain NPC in the market wards and in the bar sold low level gear for a lower price, unless finding a bargain is a skill, then STFU!! Or are you saying farming sheepskin is a skill ? Really ? Grinding a skill ? Again really ?

Btw: Somebody was showing me earlier today how broken power level is at camp lake with them raptors, i got 11 skins of them, i dint even move an inch or pressed a key, i will make around 120K off that, THAT IS SKILLS BRAH!



Wait... you let somebody explain to you how to make money when you already had a million gil after a week? You are quite something!

As for the other stuff you are writing: I sense that you are very young. Never mind then. Have fun playing in here, but remember: homework comes first, ok?

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 12:47am by MrMissile
#45 Jun 20 2012 at 5:01 AM Rating: Default
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242 posts
I'm going to post what someone else posted in one of my other forums because its the truth, it is also why MMO's are going to fail no matter how they are released. FFXIV version 2 isnt going to fix the main problem either, or bring a lot of people in. No MMO will right will in the future unless of this. *blizzards new one will might do it because they are reworking the system and know how this works*

*starting quote*
MMOs need to be redesigned from the ground up. And I'm not talking about instancing. Their entire PURPOSE and focus needs to be redone. When I first started raiding it was exciting...because it was new. After a year, it was "meh". But eventually, it was just grinding for loots. Grouping for loots. Endlessly, over and over, racing for a finish line that you knew was going to be reset. In EQ you had issues with tiering and people being endlessly behind and grinding to catch up with people who were fighting to stay ahead. In WoW, there is still grinding, there is still endless mind numbing raiding. Only, with occasional total resets that make everything you worked for completely obsolete.

Character development via gear, and the grinding hamster wheel content that is thrown in front of gamers like caltrops needs to @#%^ing end. The entire idea of character advancement as the end goal of a game needs to die a horrible, painful death. If you want people to log on, give them community goals. Let people contribute to a fiefdom or a country or a duchy, help build it up and defend it. Give people the ability to be part of the actual game world and create land, barns, keeps or whatever and make everything vulnerable. Oh, you can still go kill mobs, but give a purpose to it other than +gooder gear. It's a horrible, horrible system that in my opinion insults the intelligence of every MMO gamer out there because it's all the same. Yet, people think that it isn't, or that MMO 3 is better than MMO 2 for the most facile of differences. MMOs are just changing the facade of gear grinding and grouping/raiding. We all know it and people are tired of it. I no longer want to play yet ANOTHER @#%^ing MMO to spend all of my time on the endless XP/gear treadmill. @#%^ THAT.

I want an MMO where I am part of a living breathing system and can affect the outcome of the world. If Killivek wants to go Red and start murdering people in dark alleys, let him. And let people posse up to hunt his *** down. Want dragons? Let random mob events spawn and start @#%^ing over some chicks Farmville estate, eating her sheep and setting her buildings that she spent months building on fire. And let the local gamers band together and go DO something involving the game world in an actual way. You expect me to go kill some MMO dragon, instanced or uninstanced, for the bajjilionth time? No thank you, I'd prefer a game where I can steal stuff or set up a business or join a force to raid a neighboring nation.

I mean think about Skyrim. When I heard they had announced an MMO, I almost sh*t myself. I mean, that would be awesome, right? Then I heard that it was essentially going to be another fantasy MMO like all the others, and I just threw my hands up in the air. Pointless. Just another pointless race with a moving finish line. And that is why studios are going to have issues with creating a "successful" MMO nowadays - not because they didn't make it "good enough", but because most of them are basing their designs on the same sh*t from the bottom up. All Devs are doing is adding a feature here or changing an option there. There are very little differences of note. Oh, one game has instanced poopsocking for loots and one has uninstanced poopsocking while camping for loots? THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE, BECAUSE BOTH SUCK.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 7:02am by elicuevas
#46 Jun 20 2012 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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3,599 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Tell me of a game that you consider to take "skill" and I'll argue against it. Then everyone will know how cool I am because that game is beneath me.

You've already admitted you play XI and XIV Lou. They'll just think you're a dumbass.


I just cant get rid of this rash on my neck. Don't /wrist just yet because your feelings were hurt. I'm sorry you have a grudge for being called out as a troll.
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#47 Jun 20 2012 at 12:56 PM Rating: Default
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4,151 posts
Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Tell me of a game that you consider to take "skill" and I'll argue against it. Then everyone will know how cool I am because that game is beneath me.

You've already admitted you play XI and XIV Lou. They'll just think you're a dumbass.


I just cant get rid of this rash on my neck. Don't /wrist just yet because your feelings were hurt. I'm sorry you have a grudge for being called out as a troll.


A grudge? Sorry Lou, but I never called out people for not wanting to party with me. I also never gloated that they didn't have a group when mine had finished. Who's feelings are hurt? I'm trying to save you the embarrassment of arguing about skill in video games. No one will take you seriously. We already know how cool you think you are... it's right there in your name.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#48 Jun 20 2012 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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3,599 posts
No more food for you troll, you're getting too fat.
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#49 Jun 20 2012 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
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4,151 posts
Louiscool wrote:
No more food for you troll, you're getting too fat.


A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

If I didn't know that you were using the term out of context, I'd say you're doing a pretty good job. I'm @#%^ing furious Smiley: lol


Edited, Jun 20th 2012 3:23pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#50 Jun 20 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
Sage
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534 posts
Filth...you are not a troll. You do not start threads in order to get a negative response to feed your own self serving ego about your infinite knowledge of all things through and through when it comes to anything related to video games or the industry in general.

I can tell from reading your posts in pretty much every thread started that you would never stoop to something like that.

Please...continue to enlighten us with your wisdom. I know we all love to read your posts.

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Amos Fin - Ultros

#51 Jun 20 2012 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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4,151 posts
Simool wrote:
Filth...you are not a troll. You do not start threads in order to get a negative response to feed your own self serving ego about your infinite knowledge of all things through and through when it comes to anything related to video games or the industry in general.

I can tell from reading your posts in pretty much every thread started that you would never stoop to something like that.

Please...continue to enlighten us with your wisdom. I know we all love to read your posts.


Well after giving it some thought I've changed my mind. It's completely within the realm of possibility that I am derailing posts and drumming up emotional responses by staying on topic and offering an opinion. I am defeated.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 5:02pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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