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Fleshing out the game by not having everything handed to usFollow

#1 Jul 09 2012 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Since launch i've noticed two particular problems with this game that seem to compound eachother.

1) The game hands too many things to you
2) The game severely lacks content, more importantly meaningful content.

number two has largely been addressed over the last year or so, but i feel that since so many things in this game are handed to you, the rewards for much of this content make it seem meaningless and "filler"

In FFXI i felt like every little character advancement took at least some amount of effort. Things like gobbie bags/Mog Safe, gaining access to areas via quests/missions, limit breaks, leveling weapon skills, collecting maps (big one for me), collecting outpost warps, fame, etc.

A lot of these things sometimes seemed tedious, but it allowed the game to feel amazingly multi-dimensional in character development, there was always something to do besides grind for levels or gear and craft.

Having to quest/buy spells was also a big part of this, I understand that FFXIV's spell system, where there is very little separation (none?) between spells and abilities (which I highly disagree with, as having a distinction between the mechanics and acquisition of spells and abilities is somewhat of a staple of the final fantasy series) would make it difficult to implement something like this, but having every ability just automatically gained upon leveling contributes to one-dimensional progression.

I feel that SE keeps giving us all the "fluff" for free, and the only things we really have to work towards is gear and levels. Content will seem increasingly one-dimensional if all we are ever trying to get out of it is gear. The minor quests will continue to feel absolutely useless.



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#2 Jul 10 2012 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is a can of worms all right.

People are of a differing opinion, vastly, about what is 'a meaningful' amount of work, and what is being handed to him.

Get a triple meld (or build one to sell), get a primal weapon, get Lt. Weapons from GC, and you'll learn that the good stuff still requires effort, some of it is either horrendous luck (1/500 chance at a triple meld.) Or completely out of reach of a low-end groups (Garuda Weapon.)

So while you say things are being 'handed' to players, it's really not accurate. The high skill, high dedication players are blowing through content mainly due to taking the path of least resistance matched with already having some of the best gear.

Unless of course, this is whining agian about levels. In which case, I should inform you, you're not going to make levels last any longer, period. They're probably going to be even shorter. That's not even debating, that's Yoshi's own words. You can complain about that, or you can wait to 2.0 and actually have some meaningful feedback on that. I'm holding my breath until I see what he's talking about there. That has me iffy.

Still, you work for what you get in this game. Just because it requires less work than some of the grind-heavy MMOs in this game, does not mean it's simply handed to you.

Oh, and you DO have to quest for your abilities. Every single Job ability is learned through questing. You can't buy them, you MUST quest. Only the ones necessary for doing your base function, your class abilities, are 'given' to you. Which really, you have to level to gain them.

Edited, Jul 10th 2012 9:00am by Hyrist
#3 Jul 10 2012 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I'd have to ask what level you are. The early quests do hand everything to you on a silver platter, but job quests are needed to get abilities.

Also, the raids don't give you any leeway on where to go.

While the fact that the journal gives everything to you on a silver platter on the early quests, I'd have to say it's a nice contrast from XI where for example in ZM4 you were told to go to "Temple of Uggalepih" and not much else. It's a good idea on paper, but I don't have time for that anymore.
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#4 Jul 10 2012 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Get a triple meld (or build one to sell), get a primal weapon, get Lt. Weapons from GC, and you'll learn that the good stuff still requires effort, some of it is either horrendous luck (1/500 chance at a triple meld.) Or completely out of reach of a low-end groups (Garuda Weapon.)

So while you say things are being 'handed' to players, it's really not accurate. The high skill, high dedication players are blowing through content mainly due to taking the path of least resistance matched with already having some of the best gear.

Unless of course, this is whining agian about levels


You're right, gear is not handed to us, but that's not what i was talking about at all. I said everything -outside- of gear and levels is handed to us:

Quote:
Things like gobbie bags/Mog Safe, gaining access to areas via quests/missions, limit breaks, leveling weapon skills, collecting maps (big one for me), collecting outpost warps, fame, etc.


hence the idea of "fleshing out" the game with additional forms of progression that do not improve our effectiveness in combat (levels and gear).


Edited, Jul 10th 2012 9:24am by MrNumptyk
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#5 Jul 10 2012 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gear is not handed by the game, nor is Gil even tho you can make lots of it by the means of leves, if you farm mats, you can make hundreds of thousands in a day with little to no effort, and end game gear, is also not handed to you, since SE method of dealing with rewards is their infamous RGN.

So what exactly is handed to you by the game in a silver platter ?
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#6 Jul 10 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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all these "gear is not handed to you" replies are making me think people are not reading the thread =/
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#7 Jul 10 2012 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Posts are not handed out to you.
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#8 Jul 10 2012 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Well you know the inventory slots being at 200 is temporary, right? We'll be going back to 100 in 2.0, with gear mannequins being available that don't take up spots in the inventory any longer.

With 100 less spaces, there could be opportunities to add these kinds of quests.
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#9 Jul 10 2012 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
This is a can of worms all right.

People are of a differing opinion, vastly, about what is 'a meaningful' amount of work, and what is being handed to him.

Get a triple meld (or build one to sell), get a primal weapon, get Lt. Weapons from GC, and you'll learn that the good stuff still requires effort, some of it is either horrendous luck (1/500 chance at a triple meld.) Or completely out of reach of a low-end groups (Garuda Weapon.)

So while you say things are being 'handed' to players, it's really not accurate. The high skill, high dedication players are blowing through content mainly due to taking the path of least resistance matched with already having some of the best gear.

Unless of course, this is whining agian about levels. In which case, I should inform you, you're not going to make levels last any longer, period. They're probably going to be even shorter. That's not even debating, that's Yoshi's own words. You can complain about that, or you can wait to 2.0 and actually have some meaningful feedback on that. I'm holding my breath until I see what he's talking about there. That has me iffy.

Still, you work for what you get in this game. Just because it requires less work than some of the grind-heavy MMOs in this game, does not mean it's simply handed to you.

Oh, and you DO have to quest for your abilities. Every single Job ability is learned through questing. You can't buy them, you MUST quest. Only the ones necessary for doing your base function, your class abilities, are 'given' to you. Which really, you have to level to gain them.

Edited, Jul 10th 2012 9:00am by Hyrist



This. It is always the same speech. @hole-Elitist players (because not all elite players are douchebags) who have dozens of slaves working for all their stuff complaining that things are too easy to obtain and that the harder things should not be obtained by others. Then there is the vast majority of the player base that pays 95% of the company bills and get left with horrible drops, impossible to do fights with decent gear and difficulty to level up crafts and what not since they have no slaves to power level them like the @holes do.

Thank God FFXIV doesn't catter more to this kind of player that imho is nothing but a cancer to online games. They care to themselves only, lead players to farm their and stuff only and treat all others with disrespect. Yes. FFXIV still have plenty of room for those who want to get hard stuff to do.

It only stops being hard when you put lots of dedication in it. But a carried officer or leader of an endgame LS (because not all leaders and officers use their members for their own gain) by his dozens of minions doesn't have to suffer or work.


Whats the pain of a player that has 20 players doing ifrit/garuda/insertyoureventhere for them whenver they want? You see these players with all jobs fully geared with the best. Was it hard?


Hard is getting things done when you have to work for things without being carried. True Endgame LS leaders, officers and members who put a lot of dedication in getting things done. A carried elitist like OP has no rights to brag about anything. Hes just as bad as that noob that he complains about.


Theres are a lot of bads calling themselves elite because they are carried and don't have to fight for things. And there are those who fight for things and for others and get things done. Those are the real Elite Players. Not a carried bad like OP.

Edited, Jul 10th 2012 10:51am by Sobrana

Edited, Jul 10th 2012 10:52am by Sobrana
#10 Jul 10 2012 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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I see where the OP is coming from.

No farming keys in dungeons and searching for treasure chests to unlock for maps. No grinding out fame so you can unlock other quests with worthwhile rewards. A lot of the progressive elements of XI where one event led to the next are absent from XIV.

Oh, way to go off on a tangent Sobrana. What is so elitist about wanting to have to explore a dungeon to obtain a map for it? Having to complete a quest line for a scroll or to learn an ability that has some story behind it? God forbid...



Edited, Jul 10th 2012 11:16am by FilthMcNasty
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#11 Jul 10 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Default
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MrNumptyk wrote:
The game hands too many things to you


And cue the casuals' whining.
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#12 Jul 10 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This. It is always the same speech. @hole-Elitist players (because not all elite players are douchebags) who have dozens of slaves working for all their stuff complaining that things are too easy to obtain and that the harder things should not be obtained by others. Then there is the vast majority of the player base that pays 95% of the company bills and get left with horrible drops, impossible to do fights with decent gear and difficulty to level up crafts and what not since they have no slaves to power level them like the @holes do.

Thank God FFXIV doesn't catter more to this kind of player that imho is nothing but a cancer to online games. They care to themselves only, lead players to farm their and stuff only and treat all others with disrespect. Yes. FFXIV still have plenty of room for those who want to get hard stuff to do.

It only stops being hard when you put lots of dedication in it. But a carried officer or leader of an endgame LS (because not all leaders and officers use their members for their own gain) by his dozens of minions doesn't have to suffer or work.


Whats the pain of a player that has 20 players doing ifrit/garuda/insertyoureventhere for them whenver they want? You see these players with all jobs fully geared with the best. Was it hard?


Hard is getting things done when you have to work for things without being carried. True Endgame LS leaders, officers and members who put a lot of dedication in getting things done. A carried elitist like OP has no rights to brag about anything. Hes just as bad as that noob that he complains about.


Theres are a lot of bads calling themselves elite because they are carried and don't have to fight for things. And there are those who fight for things and for others and get things done. Those are the real Elite Players. Not a carried bad like OP.


you also seem to have missed the point entirely. not once did i say that things should be harder.

what im saying is: instead of giving me small things like maps, inventory space, etc, for FREE, make them rewards for the SMALL, SIMPLE QUESTS that i would be doing anyways for USELESS rewards.

Quote:

I see where the OP is coming from.

No farming keys in dungeons and searching for treasure chests to unlock for maps. No grinding out fame so you can unlock other quests with worthwhile rewards. A lot of the progressive elements of XI where one event led to the next are absent from XIV.


im convinced that this is the only person who actually read past the title before commenting.
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#13 Jul 10 2012 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with the OP 100% and my sister and I blogged the following earlier this year:
From: http://sumasusisters.blogspot.com/2012/01/auto-everything-mini-rant.html

We dislike automatically getting everything handed to us. We want a sense that our hard work is causing our characters to grow by obtaining spells, abilities, recipes and maps in addition to equipment. There should be stuff that is easy to learn, extremely rare, and everything in between. We also want zones that you can only visit if you have done something to unlock them.

This earning can be questing, buy with gil, buy with GC seals, exploration, mob drop or any other route. Something awesome could have 4 pieces of a scroll spread out among several drops or quests but once all the pieces are assembled you can learn it. Perhaps we can trade some and others are U/U.

At this point we would not ask anything to be changed currently in-game but we are really hoping that going forward we have to actually take action to obtain these things.

It sounds like we will be questing our abilities/JSE for the new jobs so perhaps this will partly fulfill our request. And we read in a dev post that in 2.0 "recipes that can only be obtained from Leves and quests will be added to your list upon receiving them." which gives us some hope that obtaining things will be something you actually have to do.

How do you feel about auto-gaining everything? Love it, hate it, or indifferent?
#14 Jul 10 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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It sounds like what people want are the operant conditioning reinforcers that MMO companies used to use to keep people addicted to games.

That's probably not the way triple A MMOs are going, and therefore likely not the way FFXIV is going. But I'm sure F2P MMOs will always continue to have those elements.
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#15 Jul 10 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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MrNumptyk wrote:
Quote:
This. It is always the same speech. @hole-Elitist players (because not all elite players are douchebags) who have dozens of slaves working for all their stuff complaining that things are too easy to obtain and that the harder things should not be obtained by others. Then there is the vast majority of the player base that pays 95% of the company bills and get left with horrible drops, impossible to do fights with decent gear and difficulty to level up crafts and what not since they have no slaves to power level them like the @holes do.

Thank God FFXIV doesn't catter more to this kind of player that imho is nothing but a cancer to online games. They care to themselves only, lead players to farm their and stuff only and treat all others with disrespect. Yes. FFXIV still have plenty of room for those who want to get hard stuff to do.

It only stops being hard when you put lots of dedication in it. But a carried officer or leader of an endgame LS (because not all leaders and officers use their members for their own gain) by his dozens of minions doesn't have to suffer or work.


Whats the pain of a player that has 20 players doing ifrit/garuda/insertyoureventhere for them whenver they want? You see these players with all jobs fully geared with the best. Was it hard?


Hard is getting things done when you have to work for things without being carried. True Endgame LS leaders, officers and members who put a lot of dedication in getting things done. A carried elitist like OP has no rights to brag about anything. Hes just as bad as that noob that he complains about.


Theres are a lot of bads calling themselves elite because they are carried and don't have to fight for things. And there are those who fight for things and for others and get things done. Those are the real Elite Players. Not a carried bad like OP.


you also seem to have missed the point entirely. not once did i say that things should be harder.

what im saying is: instead of giving me small things like maps, inventory space, etc, for FREE, make them rewards for the SMALL, SIMPLE QUESTS that i would be doing anyways for USELESS rewards.

Quote:

I see where the OP is coming from.

No farming keys in dungeons and searching for treasure chests to unlock for maps. No grinding out fame so you can unlock other quests with worthwhile rewards. A lot of the progressive elements of XI where one event led to the next are absent from XIV.


im convinced that this is the only person who actually read past the title before commenting.


But there is farming keys for Treasure chests, that give items that can be used to make materia (I am not joking about this, it is something I enjoy doing).
There is achievements that unlock different items, and titles. None of them are easily handed to you.

There is the chocobo quest, which is far more engaging and fun that the 11 one of standing there, logging out for an hour, log back in, trade more greens, log back out.

There are the Job quests, to unlock abilities (I have all of my classes to 50, but I have only completed 4 of the jobs, and as such, I have to remind myself from time to time to go back and finish this or that).

The Grand Company quests that allow you to continue each one, unlocking new items for sale. And giving you a higher rank, and more challenge to move to the next tier.

For a game that is holding off on most of it's content, there is still enough to keep me busy (which was the only metric I continued on. If there was nothing for me to do in the game I wouldn't play it).

But, to each their own. Personally I have found a lot to do that doesn't involve gear hording (don't get me wrong I have 120 slots filled on my character of just gear... But then again, I have leveled every job/class to some extent.
#16 Jul 10 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I personally found not having to do a quest for every single teeny thing a refreshing break after FFXI, but there's got to be some sense of balance.

Frankly, a lot of the "given" things could be alternate rewards for the baby intro quests, instead of useless crap that I just turned around and NPC'd for a little gil. The only quest I've really felt has done anything for me so far has been the Inn quest, because now I can log in to a nice exp bonus after a few days of not playing.

MMO games succeed because they are Skinner boxes, with lots of carrot and a little bit of stick (for those who like the stick.) We're not even being led by carrots or beaten by sticks; we're being carried along in the box with a bowl of fresh carrots and the stick tucked away elsewhere where it can't reach us. (Way to stretch a metaphor here.)

Edited, Jul 10th 2012 2:46pm by catwho
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#17 Jul 10 2012 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately, my mind went to where they put that stick... and it hurts...
#18 Jul 10 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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#19 Jul 10 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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I want to address a few more things, as you automatically switched to other examples as I started slapping down the first ones.

Quote:
Things like gobbie bags/Mog Safe


Don't like having 200 inventory spaces from the start? Don't worry, by the end of 1.xx we're getting half those spaces removed. We will likely get them back via gobbie bag quest and whatnot because of the outcry to have those spaces back once they are goin.


Quote:
gaining access to areas via quests/missions,


Personally, I hope they never do this. However, you're making a false assumption. In the JP release of FFXI, there was no such thing as locked down/restricted areas based on quest progression. You're complaining about a vanilla game that's having to go through a reboot. It's still way too early to be complaining about your elitist-only zones. Personally, I hope the only way they keep area's inaccessible to newbies is the prohibitive difficulty of the monsters in the area.

Quote:
limit breaks

First level cap in FFXI was 50... what is the level cap now, I wonder? What, you wanted Genkai 1 at 30?

Quote:
leveling weapon skills


You're referring to the Magic/Combat skills tabs? Honestly, I an effing GLAD that is gone. That was nothing but a time-sink, worse, it created dangerous unknowns in your player base. Sure, someone might be level 50, but is weapon/magic skill levels capped? It was a pointless division of the game mechanics that never existed in Final Fantasy beyond FF2, and for good reason.

Quote:
collecting maps (big one for me),


Don't worry. The pre-explored map thing you're worried about is gone in 2.0. Maps will fill in via the area you explore, with achievements for filling them in. No word yet on 'questing for maps'.


Quote:
collecting outpost warps


- is no different than attuning yourself to runic portals, with the exception that a friend can take you along on their telephoner to get you your points. It's a nice little shortcut that alleviates the "I don't have Tele-Valtz! :(" in the middle of your bloody Shadowlord run. And this is just for the Atherites, you still have to manually go to the Atheric Gates, as system that is likely not to change.

Remember Treespeak? The fact that you have to walk through the moving forest and a single movement out of line can get you hit for 9999 damage? Yeah. That point wasn't handed to you.

Quote:
fame


- Is now level requirement. I'm sorry, but trading a bunch cabbages or Yagudo Necklaces to an NPC does not constitute fun in my book.

Ultimately, as I said before - the complaints about getting things handed to you is a complaint by those who are overly accustomed to Grind-heavy MMOs of yesteryear. Mose of those processes were not enjoyable in the least, and equated to unnecessary time sinks.

Most other complaints are about the current version that simply does not have the majority of the development team working on it.

There is meaningful content already in the game, see my previous suggestions. They're not as populated because, not only are you NOT playing a 10 year old MMORPG. (Seriously, sometimes I wish players could go back and play Vanilla FFXI and get a reality check.) You're playing a game that's getting scrapped and redone.

A lot of these complaints I did not touch on before because they stemmed from a complete lack of paying attention to the info that HAS been given to us. Now I've touched on them. The others, there are other things you have to unlock in this game, such as Achievements. Of course, you have all your achievements done, complaining that the game hands you every single one of them, yes?


And... aside from the badly used (as in for you diddn't even use the right definition) mention of the Skinner Box. Both the Carrot and the Stick and the Skinner Box functions are VASTLY overused functions in video games these days. They've been done to death in MMOs. It's past time for something better.

Edited, Jul 10th 2012 5:15pm by Hyrist
#20 Jul 10 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'd personally like to see a happy medium when it comes to how things are obtained. I don't mind that I have maps for everything, but I would be content to have the maps fill in as I explore (always thought that was the most realistic way of getting maps) but being allowed to buy or quest overlay maps that point out hidden paths, caves, etc.

I'd also like to see more of a progression when it comes to skills. Don't just power them up every level... let there be a use/reward system... use fire 100 times and it bumps up a tier.... something along those lines. I I feel underwhelmed when I level and just have my next spell/ability ready to use at full capacity. Also, for questing I do like that they give you updated details, but I try not to look at the map they offer very often... it just takes away from the challenge. That being said, it is way better than the quest descriptions in FFXI like "So Chilly...." and expecting you to know where to go. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/images/happyfriday/090703-Chilly-large.jpg).

Aside from that, I have enjoyed making money, crafting, and now starting to get into the GC quests and hopefully starting things like Ifrit and Moogle. Hopefully v2.0 will offer a new balance... but we'll have to wait and see.
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#21 Jul 10 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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@OP While i did love the aspect of FFXI were a person's "to do" list was longer then a giraffe's neck. The sad part is while that would make people like you, me, and a few others happy. It would cast out the masses who like the carrot, while being carried in the box, with no stick in sight. I do agree with you, that to many things or on a silver platter, however were we differ is that I don't point my finger at those that make the product. But at the people who want a product made this way or that. If it was up to SE i am sure they rather make another EQ1 clone and have people play the next decade on hitting cap and getting armor... Sadly it's more like what we have now as dictated by the played cap in 10 days so they can quit before free month is up.
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#22 Jul 10 2012 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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I could dig a more comprehensive system of character development done through quests.

Though, and this is my opinion, I would like it if they did so at the cost of greatly decreasing the experience required to hit cap through grinding.

When my friend first showed me the magazine pages previewing FFXI, I thought it would be much more similar to a traditional final fantasy experience, though online so I could play with my friends, and in a consistent world, with maybe it taking a bit longer to level.

I had no experience with MMOs, and so I had no idea what they were all about.

Around level 25-30 I caught on to their game, and actually got a little depressed. I pushed through and eventually achieved level 75 and completed the stories. I did like the missions a lot, I thought they were fantastic, but the structure of the game making it take so long to accomplish anything honestly felt a bit insulting, and left somewhat of a sour taste in my mouth. Because I loved the world, the characters, and the atmosphere of FFXI so much, I always felt it could have been my favorite game of all time if it had been more of the pace of diablo 2, though a bit lighter on the 90's end of the spectrum.

FFXIV has great potential, and I love what I've seen from the concept art, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life to see everything it has to offer. I have other hobbies too!

At least 2.0 seems to be something closer to what I originally hoped for with an online final fantasy game.
#23 Jul 11 2012 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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I think the biggest problem right now is just the waiting game.

There are so many different things that we want, and many of them are promised to us in some form or fashion. We just don't know how they are implemented, and if we will enjoy them... And there is the ever-loving fear of change added to that. Many of us have gotten used to the changes that have already happened, and more changes are coming. While the vast majority of what has happened in game is not only good, but very much needed, there have been a few things people have simply not liked, or found disdainful, repetitive, or menial.

Until we get to the Beta though, all of the large scale changes are on hold. Yoshi has already said that we are done with major design changes until 2.0 comes out, and then we are getting a wide range of them.

They include:
Bags (implied quested for)
Quested abilities
Fog of War Maps
Wider array of achievements (some achievements will be locked that are available now)
Wider selection of gear/crafts
New areas (with implication to some being locked, or involved in quests, see reference to the area that Ifrit lives in).
New Mobs
Quest driven character progression

All of these are things we have to go out and get, and are not getting handed to us... But for now, we have to take what was given, since it was there in the start, and the whole point was to not take away from people who had already dedicated their time to their characters.

Will be interesting to review this thread in 6 months and see what the going opinion is on if they are giving us too much, or making too much of a grind-fest.

On a side note, saying that grinding is so last year reminds me too much of my kids. Always talking about how what I think is cool as being outdated, while they wipe out the Wii, and play Super Mario 1 on the Virtual Console, or worse, listening to Dub-Step. Just because something was the way things were done in the past doesn't necessarily make it outdated, it can still be a functional concept. It's a matter of embracing the old with the new. Grinding is the design of RPGs, you can't take the grind out of an RPG without changing it into something more inline with an TPS. Character development needs to build over time. Options need to be unlocked as you do things. And while I don't have the time I did as a kid, but have FAR more of an attention span (I love how that works), I still recognize the time that is needed to be invested in a waste of life like a video game.
#24 Jul 11 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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I really like how things are handed to you. It makes doing stuff like Ifrit a lot less of a headache for example. I didn't like you had to be at 8-3 on CoP to unlock the fast sky warp nor you had to progress through VW in order to get teleports. You can work for them and most likely you will, will the others you're partying with? You could wait 15-45 minutes on one person crawling through a dungeon because he didn't do the prerequisite for the teleport. That's potentially 45 minutes I could have spent on anything else.

That they're removing the 100 inventory slots and then give them back reminds me of Star Wars Galaxies removing beastmaster only to reintroduce it at a later point. Other than checking up recipes I haven't really been forced into using wikis for checking up stuff. I don't remember the last time on FFXI where I didn't use a wiki because that game told you nothing. Since they're hiding the map it could potentially mean I have to check wikis more frequently in the future if they decide to design dungeons the same way they did on FFXI (can't jump over a 1.5 inch tall edge wut).

I think classes are much more balanced out when all classes have equal amount of work to do. Never really liked that BLM had to spend 10 million gil on spells when WAR didn't have to spend a dent.

Well, there's one thing the game doesn't hand to you and that's an explanation of how the party recruit/search feature works. Instead of conveniently making parties anywhere in the world, people shout for hours in Ul'Dah and make the parties there instead.
#25 Jul 11 2012 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Solonuke wrote:
I think classes are much more balanced out when all classes have equal amount of work to do. Never really liked that BLM had to spend 10 million gil on spells when WAR didn't have to spend a dent.


Sorry, but no. Every job had either spells, gear or consumables that they needed to put in work to get. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had spent the same amount of time farming gil for spells as I did camping for Ridill, I would have easily been able to afford them all. Every job had gear or items like that. Some more than others, but the trade-off usually came in the form of job utility.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Jul 11 2012 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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I was talking about what it took to get access to everything on a job. I'm sure that mages would have spent equally long time on obtaining items if they got over that level 51 items being the absolute best you could get on a magejob because relics were melee oriented on mages.
#27 Jul 11 2012 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Solonuke wrote:
I'm sure that mages would have spent equally long time on obtaining items if they got over that level 51 items being the absolute best you could get on a magejob because relics were melee oriented on mages.


I just read this at least 5 times and I have absolutely no clue what the **** it means or how it relates to anything either of us said previously.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 Jul 11 2012 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I believe he's referring to the BLM relic being a lol!staff and not the holy grail combo of all the level 51 elemental staves, the imaginary Rainbow Pole.
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#29 Jul 11 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
I believe he's referring to the BLM relic being a lol!staff and not the holy grail combo of all the level 51 elemental staves, the imaginary Rainbow Pole.


I guess, but I don't see the relevance.

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#30 Jul 11 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Melee had to buy gear. Mages had to buy gear on top of spells, and **** those spells weren't cheap. My second ancient magic was Quake, given to me by my first HNM that was out camping Orc NMs for the lulz. At the time, it was 500K, which was still a hefty sum for a WHM who had been in endgame for just a few months. (My first AM was Freeze, which was cheap since people had discovered MNK burns in KRT by the time I hit 50 BLM.)

The most money I ever had in FFXI was about 9 million gil in 2005, from a combination of 1. dumb people paying 1 million gil for stuff like Utsu: Ni at the time and 2. friends leaving the game at the height of inflation and bequeathing their wealth to me. And that all went to WHM and BLM gear; 2 million gil for Blessed Mitts and 3 million gil for Blessed Pants. A million gil for each HQ stave, too. Thank goodness my HNM took pity on me and gave me my first Noble's Tunic and my scroll of Raise III, or else I'd have been out another five million easily. Once inflation died down a few months after that Christmas, most of us were kicking ourselves for not holding on to our vast stashes of gil. Even at the height of my Dynamis career, I never had more than 2-3 million on me ever again... (then again, I finished a relic, so there's another 150 million gil that passed through me at some point over the course of four years...)

Career mages like me were always broke. If there wasn't a pricey spell to buy, there was always some epic piece of gear you were supposed to be saving up for. At the time I wasn't in school like I am now so I could spend hours and hours farming, but it always just felt futile because it would either be gobbled up by Gjallarhorn or BLM stuff.

Edited, Jul 11th 2012 11:12pm by catwho
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FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#31 Jul 11 2012 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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I agree and disagree with the OP on some points. For me I wish SE added more mid level content instead of this annoying cycle of scramble to get the best gear until next patch when we release better gear... I miss things like having to far khazam keys to unlock those areas. Also its annoying how much luck plays a factor in FFXIV. Ive beat Ifrit 100 times and still can't get the stupid bow I want and only 7 totems... wtf is that? Id much rather camp an NM with a 10% drop rate against other players than spam iffy runs. I also thought in FFXI the spells system was really good. Cause just things like Nin scrolls and ancient magic made u put effort into creating your character and gave u ways to go around it like you could buy it if you want or you could farm it. Now its just like every job has to do some lame quest to get a ability with a quick little story about it... I also don't understand why they wouldn't keep the AH system I felt that that was so brilliant and kept such a good flowing economy in the game and was convenient if you ask me this retainer crap is a waste of time and effort why can't I just walk up and put something on sale?
#32 Jul 11 2012 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the retainers were a reaction to Rolanmart. I know I clocked in about a year's worth of my character's 1300-ish days just afking in the fields with my bazaar up.

Rolanmart only worked, though, because we also had the auction house. I personally only used Rolanmart for things I couldn't buy or sell on the AH, such as ancient currency.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#33 Jul 12 2012 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
I think the retainers were a reaction to Rolanmart. I know I clocked in about a year's worth of my character's 1300-ish days just afking in the fields with my bazaar up.

Rolanmart only worked, though, because we also had the auction house. I personally only used Rolanmart for things I couldn't buy or sell on the AH, such as ancient currency.


I think that was one (and still is I guess) one of FFXI's biggest flaws. I have no idea why the decided it would be better to have some times that couldn't be put on AH, but could still be sold through Bazaar. A central location to market your wares is a necessity and the AH supplied that in a very good fashion (probably one of the best of any MMO I have played as far as the ability to quickly find what you are looking for AND compare it to other options in that range). FFXIV would do well to adopt a full on AH system like FFXI, broken down in the same fashion, but allowing for more items to be put up and the ability to buy in varying quantities (for crystals and such so people can put up 133 of an item and sell it in individual quantites).
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