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Do we have any reason to believe that 2.0 will succeed?Follow

#1 Jul 12 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Like a lot of other people, I'm very much looking forward to 2.0. However, with what we know about 2.0 and the current development team, do we really have any reason to believe that it'll succeed?

The current team behind the game has had less time and resources to develop 2.0 than the original team had for 1.0. In addition, while new director/producer Yoshida has played the part of the mascot perfectly, he doesn't have a whole lot of experience developing online games (or any games for that matter). On top of all that, they're trying to "fix" the PC version (with what little PC experience any of them have) while simultaneously developing the PS3 version.

Realistically, it doesn't seem like 2.0 has much of a chance (although I hope I'm wrong).
#2 Jul 12 2012 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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No, there isn't much evidence that it will succeed on the scale that FFXI did. You never know though. Over the years I've settled on WoW most of the time because of the enormous amount of content and updates it receives. Rift however was a good enough game to take me away if my friends would have stayed. If it is as good as Rift (caliber of game, not similar), I'd be perfectly happy with it and take it up as my new MMO. I love the art style of FFXIV, it just needs content and fluidity to back it up. The fact that Yoshi is taking inspiration from successful MMOs and not trying to be too different is what gives me a shred of hope.

Raid style encounters with interesting boss mechanics.
PvP (for those that enjoy it)
Mounts and other collectables
Low man content that consists of more than looking for boxes in a copy paste maze (actual dungeons)
Memorable enemies and NPCs (ala WoW and FFXI)
Faster paced combat
More class specific stuff
Clear cut classes with unique abilities and functions
Better threat system
Better crafting system
More memorable zones and BGMs to go with them
Better menus and communication systems
Jump (I know it's not necessary but it's fun and expected in MMOs now)
Mini-games
Better seasonal events
etc.

All these things are planned for FFXIV as it is so if they can pull it off, it will be an awesome game. (imo) Basically taking the art and music style of FFXI and combining it with the fun and depth of modern MMOs would be the perfect game to me. I'm just skeptical as to whether or not SE can execute it correctly.

Edited, Jul 12th 2012 6:43pm by Transmigration
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#3 Jul 12 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Short answer: Not yet.

Any reason to believe that the game will succeed will come when more information is released(since we don't have much at this point) as well as the 2.0 beta test. The majority of the issues that people had with the game were design flaws like the battle system, mechanics flaws like the interface being cluttered and lagged as well as things like lack of content and pointless guildleve repetition. Whether or not these things will change with 2.0 remains to be seen so until we actually see it, no one can say for sure.
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#4 Jul 12 2012 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
while new director/producer Yoshida has played the part of the mascot perfectly, he doesn't have a whole lot of experience developing online games (or any games for that matter). On top of all that, they're trying to "fix" the PC version (with what little PC experience any of them have) while simultaneously developing the PS3 version.


You seem to have made up your mind already, not sure what posting in the forum is going to do for you.

But Yoshida has been in S-E since 2004. He was part of the Dragon Quest teams. He has eight years of experience that we know of in S-E before becoming producer and director. Heck, the director(s) of FFVI only had 5-6 years in comparison before being appointed by Sakaguchi.

They did grab a lot of top talent from other well Final Fantasy titles. They have the co-director of XII developing the new UI. I don't think they're taking this re-launch as lightly as you're making it.

Of course, if 2.0 somehow fails you can feel free to quote this post and say "I told you so".


Edited, Jul 12th 2012 6:28pm by UltKnightGrover
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#5 Jul 13 2012 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Quote:
while new director/producer Yoshida has played the part of the mascot perfectly, he doesn't have a whole lot of experience developing online games (or any games for that matter). On top of all that, they're trying to "fix" the PC version (with what little PC experience any of them have) while simultaneously developing the PS3 version.


You seem to have made up your mind already, not sure what posting in the forum is going to do for you.

But Yoshida has been in S-E since 2004. He was part of the Dragon Quest teams. He has eight years of experience that we know of in S-E before becoming producer and director. Heck, the director(s) of FFVI only had 5-6 years in comparison before being appointed by Sakaguchi.

They did grab a lot of top talent from other well Final Fantasy titles. They have the co-director of XII developing the new UI. I don't think they're taking this re-launch as lightly as you're making it.

Of course, if 2.0 somehow fails you can feel free to quote this post and say "I told you so".


You don't have to be so presumptuous, I haven't made up my mind about anything and I haven't been making light of their efforts. I also don't know why you think I'm the kind of petty person that would enjoy saying "I told you so" if 2.0 ends up failing. If you read the first and last sentence of my original post, you'd know that I don't want it to fail. I'm just asking a question based on what we know about the current development team and 2.0.

A. Before Yoshida had worked on XIV, his most notable accomplishments were working on a series of arcade games that were based on Dragon Quest VIII (that a lot of people hadn't even heard of). He also had little to no experience developing online games. This doesn't exactly instill a whole lot of confidence in his ability to not only develop a game of this magnitude, but to save it from sinking even further than it already has.

B. They have very little experience developing games for the PC, yet they're trying to "fix" the PC version of the game while simultaneously developing the PS3 version. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, the original team mentioned they were having technical troubles with the PS3 version. So the current team is forced to spread themselves thin between two platforms that they're having trouble with because of the time constraints they're under.

C. As if that weren't enough, they're promising to overhaul the game with a trove of features that had been absent at launch. Just look at Transmigration's list, and that's probably only a third of it. However, we're expecting this new team to turn everything around and add all of the features the game should've had in less time and with less resources than the original team had. Look at how far the original team got with 1.0 with the time and resources they were given. The original team also had a lot of top talents from previous Final Fantasy titles.

I mean, am I missing something? Am I wrong about any of this? If this is all correct, then what basis is there to believe that 2.0 will be any different? These questions were why I made this topic.
#6 Jul 13 2012 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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From what I've seen Yoshi is basically just copying other MMOs and listening to current players. Neither of these are really that good unless you understand what you're doing well. for instance MMO players will tell you they want fast leveling, high drop rates etc but in a month when they have nothing to do because they have everything they will complain and quit.

He seems to be copying the base aspects of other MMOs at a time when every otehr mmo has done that to death and people are sick of them.

The fact they are hiding the game also doesn't say "confidence" at all.
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#7 Jul 13 2012 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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preludes wrote:
From what I've seen Yoshi is basically just copying other MMOs and listening to current players. Neither of these are really that good unless you understand what you're doing well. for instance MMO players will tell you they want fast leveling, high drop rates etc but in a month when they have nothing to do because they have everything they will complain and quit.

He seems to be copying the base aspects of other MMOs at a time when every other mmo has done that to death and people are sick of them.

The fact they are hiding the game also doesn't say "confidence" at all.


He's fixing the very thing people complained about. These are standard MMO-features. They got experimental once and it ended up being so different and convoluted that it wasn't a game, it was a giant mess.

I'm not sure why people would be sick of non-laggy, non copy-pasted terrain, and a good user-interface with standard controls.
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#8 Jul 13 2012 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
preludes wrote:
From what I've seen Yoshi is basically just copying other MMOs and listening to current players. Neither of these are really that good unless you understand what you're doing well. for instance MMO players will tell you they want fast leveling, high drop rates etc but in a month when they have nothing to do because they have everything they will complain and quit.

He seems to be copying the base aspects of other MMOs at a time when every other mmo has done that to death and people are sick of them.

The fact they are hiding the game also doesn't say "confidence" at all.


He's fixing the very thing people complained about. These are standard MMO-features. They got experimental once and it ended up being so different and convoluted that it wasn't a game, it was a giant mess.

I'm not sure why people would be sick of non-laggy, non copy-pasted terrain, and a good user-interface with standard controls.


I second that. This game would be an entirely different game if they had made the basica functionality something everyone could relate to. I would have even been happy if it had been handled in a similar way to FFXI (with some up to date enhancements). FFXI was the first MMO to really bring chat to the forground and make it something you could easily see while you were going about your activities... I find the standard model now just blends into the background... I think that as long as the make it so the game isn't choppy, the UI is intuitive and customizable, and the enviroment is unique and lends itself to gradual exploration... then it has the foundation for something amazing. SE has a knack for storytelling, so I am not going ot wory about that aspect (although after the initial quests... that might be overstepping a little).

All we can do is wait... even if they fix all the fundamental errors from V1.0, they still need to recapture an audience... and that is a huge challenge for them.
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#9 Jul 13 2012 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
preludes wrote:
From what I've seen Yoshi is basically just copying other MMOs and listening to current players. Neither of these are really that good unless you understand what you're doing well. for instance MMO players will tell you they want fast leveling, high drop rates etc but in a month when they have nothing to do because they have everything they will complain and quit.

He seems to be copying the base aspects of other MMOs at a time when every other mmo has done that to death and people are sick of them.

The fact they are hiding the game also doesn't say "confidence" at all.


He's fixing the very thing people complained about. These are standard MMO-features. They got experimental once and it ended up being so different and convoluted that it wasn't a game, it was a giant mess.

I'm not sure why people would be sick of non-laggy, non copy-pasted terrain, and a good user-interface with standard controls.


Yeah I guess people are sick of interesting end game content too. /rolleyes
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#10 Jul 13 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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That's my thing. I totally think Yoshi P. is a dedicated producer and it seems like he really cares. But there's nothing of his vision of what things should be. He's just asking what everyone else wants, running to the kitchen and then trying to dole it out, even if what everyone ordered was different and cluttered.

With no overriding inspiration other than "I have to correct an EPIC f'k up", I really don't have a lot of faith. But hey, I could be wrong.
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#11 Jul 13 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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As far as concrete evidence? Nothing but a bunch of screenshot, Yoshi's promises and the faith gained back or loss by the amount of work they've done recently.

It's past the deadline to get in for Legacy. I'd say hold off on decisions and judgments until after August, when they've started their information/info campaign proper.

Good faith and piratical reasoning are two different species of thought. I'm hopeful of their chances but that shouldn't be enough for the average person.
#12 Jul 13 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:
That's my thing. I totally think Yoshi P. is a dedicated producer and it seems like he really cares. But there's nothing of his vision of what things should be. He's just asking what everyone else wants, running to the kitchen and then trying to dole it out, even if what everyone ordered was different and cluttered.

With no overriding inspiration other than "I have to correct an EPIC f'k up", I really don't have a lot of faith. But hey, I could be wrong.


And if he doesn't ask then SE is not listening to its customers and ar being their arrogant self again.

Nice threads we're getting nowadays btw. What will be the next one?

Would you play 2.0 if they won't let you change your race after all?
How many hours per day will you devote to 2.0?
How many more servers will they add once 2.0 is out?
Would you still be interested in 2.0 if Yoshida dies and Tanaka takes over again?
How many glitches will 2.0 contain?
Would you play 2.0 if Blizzard would release a brand new MMO all of a sudden?

And we sure have no clue where these debates lead to, do we?

Shhht! I think I can hear the trolls coming already.... do you hear them too?
#13 Jul 13 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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MrMissile wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
That's my thing. I totally think Yoshi P. is a dedicated producer and it seems like he really cares. But there's nothing of his vision of what things should be. He's just asking what everyone else wants, running to the kitchen and then trying to dole it out, even if what everyone ordered was different and cluttered.

With no overriding inspiration other than "I have to correct an EPIC f'k up", I really don't have a lot of faith. But hey, I could be wrong.


And if he doesn't ask then SE is not listening to its customers and ar being their arrogant self again.

Nice threads we're getting nowadays btw. What will be the next one?

Would you play 2.0 if they won't let you change your race after all?
How many hours per day will you devote to 2.0?
How many more servers will they add once 2.0 is out?
Would you still be interested in 2.0 if Yoshida dies and Tanaka takes over again?
How many glitches will 2.0 contain?
Would you play 2.0 if Blizzard would release a brand new MMO all of a sudden?

And we sure have no clue where these debates lead to, do we?

Shhht! I think I can hear the trolls coming already.... do you hear them too?


Yes, you're right. Let's eschew all real debate or honest opinions so we can all blow happy smoke up everyone's *** about how awesome and amazing and wonderful everything is and has been in the scope of this game's development, release and redevelopment. Who needs actual discussion or a considered position?

Thank you, MrMissle. You have changed my life. I will take this sunshine-no-matter-what attitude into the rest of my life and I cannot wait to start ignoring the perfectly obvious all around me just as soon as possible.

You're a lifechanger.

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#14 Jul 13 2012 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:

Yes, you're right. Let's eschew all real debate or honest opinions so we can all blow happy smoke up everyone's *** about how awesome and amazing and wonderful everything is and has been in the scope of this game's development, release and redevelopment. Who needs actual discussion or a considered position?

Thank you, MrMissle. You have changed my life. I will take this sunshine-no-matter-what attitude into the rest of my life and I cannot wait to start ignoring the perfectly obvious all around me just as soon as possible.

You're a lifechanger.



That respond was expected and frowned upon.

Thanks for your opinion on this, one we have not been able to read in plenty of other threads. Thanks for telling us your position in this, so we can all sleep better. And thanks for participating in this discussion on something that has already been discussed lots of times.

Maybe you do not need a lifechanger. If you actually want to put some serious energy in ~~ discussions ~~ like these, you might be better of getting a whole new life. How's that for the sunshine-no-matter-what attitude you assume I have?
#15 Jul 14 2012 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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Im gonna steer a little off topic to try and make a point. Here in Canada, Quebec had a 32-year ban (still in effect i believe) on advertising fast food to children. A study showed that as a by-product of this ban there was an estimated reduction in annual expenditures on fast food of $US88 million. Futhermore, there was a 13.4 to 18.4 billion fewer fast food calories consumed annually. Here's the article (http://www.care2.com/causes/advertising-bans-work-quebec-has-lowest-childhood-obesity-rate.html).

To the point. Giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and assuming they have pulled off all the stops and developed a great game, this can completely turn around. To begin with, SE is a huge brand and tops when it comes to JRPGs and despite the horrendous release of FFXIV the Final Fantasy franchise is uncontested in Japan and stands firm around the globe. It isn't as if this is some no-name dev starting at ground zero. This, coupled with a strong advertising campaign, can give this game that second chance that most MMO devs don't get. That fast-food ban study shows how effective advertising can be and i think most of us take it for granted. I know SE isn't known for its big ad-campaigns however, but if they wish to have any shot at all at this the will need to step up their game and i bet they're up for it.

Hypothetically, if Blizzard was in this same position, you'd be crazy to write them off completely. Square Enix may not be as big as Blizzard but they're big nonetheless and they most definitely don't want this investment to go to waste. Yes, they only had 2 years to basically make a new game from scratch but i'm sure they weren't working with a small team and chances are they may have even contracted out some work if they're not up to snuff in house.

Its all talk of course until its proven. I guess the release is creeping up on us now, so we'll see how they handle it. Personally i'm rooting for them, i want this game to succeed. I took a hiatus from the game for a while now cuz i wanna come into 2.0 with a fresh perspective on things. I hope it gives me that magical feeling that FFXI gave me when i first played it. I think we all want this so good positive energy people!
#16 Jul 14 2012 at 1:39 AM Rating: Default
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kyara10 wrote:
Im gonna steer a little off topic to try and make a point. Here in Canada, Quebec had a 32-year ban (still in effect i believe) on advertising fast food to children. A study showed that as a by-product of this ban there was an estimated reduction in annual expenditures on fast food of $US88 million. Futhermore, there was a 13.4 to 18.4 billion fewer fast food calories consumed annually. Here's the article (http://www.care2.com/causes/advertising-bans-work-quebec-has-lowest-childhood-obesity-rate.html).


What does it all mean? SE is a spoiled, fat kid? Canadians are bad parents?

This is a classic case of government overstepping their bounds and playing the role of parent. I understand that Canada has universal health care and that keeping people healthy lowers costs, but really... stock your fridge with healthy food and take your child out for some exercise. Parenting 101.

kyara10 wrote:
To begin with, SE is a huge brand and tops when it comes to JRPGs and despite the horrendous release of FFXIV the Final Fantasy franchise is uncontested in Japan and stands firm around the globe. It isn't as if this is some no-name dev starting at ground zero. This, coupled with a strong advertising campaign, can give this game that second chance that most MMO devs don't get.


Rep and advertising only get you so far. Given SE's recent track record, I wouldn't even give them a nod in the rep department. They've been slowly dismantling their 'cred' with FF for years now. Whether or not they can put together a strong ad campaign remains to be seen as well. They didn't produce at E3 which woulda coulda shoulda been big for them and they just released a 'teaser' website with nothing more than a few screenshots. Shaky at best.

kyara10 wrote:
Yes, they only had 2 years to basically make a new game from scratch but i'm sure they weren't working with a small team and chances are they may have even contracted out some work if they're not up to snuff in house.


Lets hope they didn't contract people to do their work for them again. That's a big part of the reason why we're in this mess to begin with. Horsebird says Hi2u!

kyara10 wrote:
Personally i'm rooting for them, i want this game to succeed. I took a hiatus from the game for a while now cuz i wanna come into 2.0 with a fresh perspective on things. I hope it gives me that magical feeling that FFXI gave me when i first played it. I think we all want this so good positive energy people!


I think we all want the game to succeed and I'm doing the same thing you are; waiting until 2.0 comes out and giving SE a fair shake at winning me over. The problem with 'good positive energy' is that it didn't work the first or second time. Eventually you stop telling your kid "You can do it. I believe in you!" and you start yelling "Get your fat *** out from behind that hamburger, go outside and play!"
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#17 Jul 14 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
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Well..2.0 HAD potential to succeed, now not so much. Maybe if they try to be unique it still will thanks to being one of the few PS3 MMOs.

Edited, Jul 14th 2012 10:14am by Theonehio
#18 Jul 14 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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Theonehio is just upset because Yoshi is taking pointers from WoW. You know, the most successful MMO on the market, for nearly a decade.
#19 Jul 14 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Theonehio is just upset because Yoshi is taking pointers from WoW. You know, the most successful MMO on the market, for nearly a decade.


Same with AO, UO, L2, RO, XI, and EQ all were very successful MMOs in numerous ways. Also since when was I upset? It's more disappointing that instead of doing something different he's falling into the same trap pretty much every other dev have for the past 6 years. All those MMOs trying to "learn from the best" end up as lackluster piles of ****.

#20 Jul 14 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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hexaemeron wrote:
That's my thing. I totally think Yoshi P. is a dedicated producer and it seems like he really cares. But there's nothing of his vision of what things should be. He's just asking what everyone else wants, running to the kitchen and then trying to dole it out, even if what everyone ordered was different and cluttered.

With no overriding inspiration other than "I have to correct an EPIC f'k up", I really don't have a lot of faith. But hey, I could be wrong.


This is pretty much my feelings on Yoshida. He has played modern MMOs which automatically makes him more qualified than Tanaka, but that's really not saying much. I've yet to see or read anything from him that'll make XIV any more innovative than any other MMO on the market. His intent on incorporating what works from other MMOs is good. But I don't think he is solid on the why or how the current MMO standards came to be which may affect his design and gameplay decisions in the long run, for better or worse.
#21 Jul 14 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
All those MMOs trying to "learn from the best" end up as lackluster piles of sh*t.


What?

You realize FFXI was heavily based off of Everquest, right? The level grinding, the spawn camping, the reliance on groups...

"The MMORPG EverQuest was the first game to truly make camping a common and widely accepted part of advancement in online RPGs. When first released, advancement through the game was painstakingly slow for most, requiring many hours of slaying NPCs to advance in level. As a result, players quickly realized that camping in one spot and having a single player, referred to as a "puller" because he or she would leave the group to "pull" a mob back to the group, was the most efficient way to gain experience. In fact, the prevalence of camping became so strong in EverQuest that some of the game's playerbase and critics jokingly refer to the game as "EverCamp"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camping_%28gaming%29

Sound familiar? Even though FFXI had tried to "learn from the best" by shamelessly copying EQ, it still turned out to be a fantastic, successful game. How is FFXIV taking cues from Warcraft any different than when FFXI had taken cues from EQ?
#22 Jul 14 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI is to Everquest as Final Fantasy XIV is to World of Warcraft.

I don't mind that all too much. I don't really like WoW's story/lore. A Final Fantasy game with WoW's controls and similar user-interface honestly doesn't bug me as much as it does you guys.

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#23 Jul 14 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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mbub wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
That's my thing. I totally think Yoshi P. is a dedicated producer and it seems like he really cares. But there's nothing of his vision of what things should be. He's just asking what everyone else wants, running to the kitchen and then trying to dole it out, even if what everyone ordered was different and cluttered.

With no overriding inspiration other than "I have to correct an EPIC f'k up", I really don't have a lot of faith. But hey, I could be wrong.


This is pretty much my feelings on Yoshida. He has played modern MMOs which automatically makes him more qualified than Tanaka, but that's really not saying much. I've yet to see or read anything from him that'll make XIV any more innovative than any other MMO on the market. His intent on incorporating what works from other MMOs is good. But I don't think he is solid on the why or how the current MMO standards came to be which may affect his design and gameplay decisions in the long run, for better or worse.


I'm no Yoshida apologist (just ask Ult!) but I'm not reading him that way at all. Responding to Hex, it's true that he has paid closer attention to user feedback than Tanaka ever did, but that honestly doesn't seem like a bad thing. The biggest complaint leveled against Tanaka going back to FFXI up to his downfall with FFXIV was that he didn't respond to fan concerns promptly or take them seriously enough.

But you can't mistake Yoshida's willingness to listen for a lack of vision, either. He has written plenty of "Letters from the Producer" to highlight which direction he's taking the game, and given several interviews over that time. From those things you gather that he's planning a story-driven leveling experience (which is the sort of thing you'd expect from a Final Fantasy game), but also that there will be content that suits a hardcore endgame experience in addition to casual play.

Taking good ideas from other MMOs is nothing new. FFXI borrowed heavily from EQ, but even WoW borrowed the AH concept from FFXI, and most other MMOs since then have borrowed their interface concepts from WoW as well as the AH from FFXI. Good concepts live on, and bad ones fade away. It's something Tanaka was completely out-of-touch with in FFXIV, but Yoshida is bringing it back. And he should if the goal is to make a popular, modern MMO; it's simply what gamers expect.

The bottom line is, the producer and director of FFXIV needs to listen to fans, but he also has to have the vision and courage to take them in a direction they didn't realize they wanted to go in, and from what I can tell, I think he is able to do both.

But you won't get to see the fruits of his direction until the 2.0 beta, so this "vision" just seems like a nebulous, insubstantial concept that you might believe really isn't there. Whatever great or terrible game ends up on our PS3s at the end of the year will be the true test of whether he's pulling a rabbit out of his hat, or a ****. But I think it's a little too early to give up all hope now.
#24 Jul 14 2012 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rep and advertising only get you so far.

Far enough. $88M less in annual fast food sales is a big number. That's how effective advertising is. So if SE is going to pull this off its going to be with good advertising. It doesn't matter how bad the release was, they'll completely re-brand the game which is what they're in the process of doing right now. Their promoting push will decide the game's fate on re-release. The quality of the game will decide its fate in the long run.

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Lets hope they didn't contract people to do their work for them again. That's a big part of the reason why we're in this mess to begin with. Horsebird says Hi2u!


Wasn't that mostly internet blabber? I'm fairly certain the reason we're in this mess is incompetent management and terrible ideas and execution. Im also fairly sure there are good, competent people you can contract out some work to.

Edited, Jul 14th 2012 10:01pm by kyara10
#25 Jul 14 2012 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rep and advertising only get you so far.

Far enough. $88M less in annual fast food sales is a big number.

Everyone eats. Everyone doesn't play MMOs...

kyara10 wrote:
Wasn't that mostly internet blabber? I'm fairly certain the reason we're in this mess is incompetent management and terrible ideas and execution.

One of those bad ideas was to outsource programming to China unfortunately.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Jul 14 2012 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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"everyone eats" means a larger pool for sampling. It just gives the study more merit. And outsourcing to China was internet blabber, i didn't see anything official on it. But say it did happen, you write off contracting out altogether? Im in engineering and the bulk of the work done on projects is sub contracted out because it works.
#27 Jul 15 2012 at 1:28 AM Rating: Default
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kyara10 wrote:
"everyone eats" means a larger pool for sampling. It just gives the study more merit.


The example doesn't really work because the logic isn't the same both ways. People already know that fast food is bad. People also already know that FFXIV is bad. Banning ads for fast food just supports something people already knew. Quite the opposite, SE will have to create an ad campaign to convince people that something they thought was bad is now good.

kyara10 wrote:
And outsourcing to China was internet blabber, i didn't see anything official on it. But say it did happen, you write off contracting out altogether? Im in engineering and the bulk of the work done on projects is sub contracted out because it works.


It's only 'internet blabber' because you don't read Japanese.

Pretty common knowledge here, but I don't trust SE. Lets say the company you work for builds rockets. Your new 80 million dollar test rocket is sub contracted out to another company for whatever the **** people would contract out rockets for. Anyway, when it comes back through your office you assemble everything, set up and test flight and it crashes and burns almost as soon as it gets off the ground(see what I did there?).

Contracting is off the table in my opinion, yes. Mostly because I don't trust SE to let it through without thoroughly inspecting it for errors. That and the reputation and possibly the future of your company is at stake. On principle alone, no one else should have a hand in that but SE.

Edited, Jul 15th 2012 3:30am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 Jul 15 2012 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
"everyone eats" means a larger pool for sampling. It just gives the study more merit.


Exactly. People are aware of the existence of fast food and since they need to eat anyway (a lack of) advertising will only have a limited effect on sales, Games are luxury goods, just like cars and cameras, goods people do not buy too often. Advertising can really make a difference in those industries. Some superiour products have even disappeared just because of bad marketing.

Filth MacNasty would probably agree with you if it wasn't for this fear that SE might actually might throw in some extra advertisement to boost sales. He's just afraid that his word-of-mouth advertisement on this forum would be in vain.

Did you know that Filth hasn't been playing FFXIV for a long time now and that he is capable of downplaying actual printed numbers or their source if he does not like was he is reading while at the same time being a master in pulling estimates out of his rear end (telling you that he actually lenient towards SE by using them, that's the beauty of his strategy in debate) to back up his point?

That is who you are up against now. I wouldn't invest too much time in it (anymore).
#29 Jul 15 2012 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthyMcNasty have you ever had a career where you contract stuff out? my firm contracts a crapload of stuff to other parties. Do you honestly think, having thier best interest at heart, my company would take anything without checking it and making sure its up to snuff? Without holding the sub contractor liable if it didnt meet specs? Etc etc etc...

The study i showed you is for advertising. It doesnt matter what we're advertising, point is its effective to the point where it clearly made an impact on fast food sales. Saying that "everyone knows fast food is bad for you" doesnt change the fact that the impact was directly related to the advertising ban. Advertising is important. I bet i literally sell a piece of sh*t if i advertise it properly. ****, the proof is in the pudding, SE managed to do it with 1.0. Many gaming companies manage to do it on pure advertising alone. The reason they put out good products is so people keep coming back, and its not as if SE has gained its fame for putting out garbage all these years. SE's advertising push will determine the game's success.

Edited, Jul 15th 2012 4:24am by kyara10
#30 Jul 15 2012 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
FilthyMcNasty have you ever had a career where you contract stuff out? my firm contracts a crapload of stuff to other parties. Do you honestly think, having thier best interest at heart, my company would take anything without checking it and making sure its up to snuff? Without holding the sub contractor liable if it didnt meet specs?


Yes. I'm not saying it can't be done. They could outsource their code to, well... anywhere I don't really care. I just would take comfort knowing that they actually cared enough to check that it was done correctly. That's the important part. I don't care if only 1% of the game was developed in house if it's fun to play.

I'm not judging you or your company, just pointing out that SE didn't follow through on that and it burned them. Burned them to the point that they used language like 'restore the brand' and 'save the franchise'. MMOs don't typically recover from gaffs like that.

kyara10 wrote:
The reason they put out good products is so people keep coming back, and its not as if SE has gained its fame for putting out garbage all these years.

I've seen plenty of garbage in recent years. SE built the franchise on games that were released over a decade ago. They built a following and a broad base in the RPG market, but that following has been slipping for quite some time now. Regardless, FF is a brand that pretty much all gamers know about. Most of the people SE would reach with their advertising have been bombarded by bad news for XIV. It's going to be a struggle for them to try and reverse that damage. Some screenshots and a trailer are not going to get the job done.

kyara10 wrote:
SE's advertising push will determine the game's success.

No. Actually, **** no. The game's success is determined by how many subscribers they can reach and retain and for how long. At least, from the business side of things. From a player perspective, they need to create a game that is fun to play and add content to it at a reasonable pace. If they pushed 5 million boxes off the shelf a week after 2.0 releases the game will still be a failure if no one cares enough to subscribe.

Edited, Jul 15th 2012 5:54am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#31 Jul 15 2012 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
SE's advertising push will determine the game's success.


vs.

Quote:
Actually, **** no. The game's success is determined by how many subscribers they can reach and retain and for how long.


The second statement here is a pretty obvious truth. Clearly, the game won't survive with X number of subscribers to keep it profitable.

However, that has absolutely no chance of happening without some smart advertising and marketing by SE, which is why I fully agree that the fate of FFXIV rests upon SE's marketing and PR department. This game doesn't have to be the best MMO on the market to survive; it only needs to speak to that giant Final Fantasy audience that is waiting for a game worth playing. Getting new gamers from outside the Final Fantasy audience would be an added bonus.

A game doesn't need WoW-like numbers to be profitable. SE recently said FFXI was their most profitable game of all time, and that's a big deal when considering all the blockbuster titles SE has released over the years. Even FFXI is getting a new expansion next year, which indicates that game is profitable enough to preserve. I don't think getting a profitably sized playerbase will be difficult for FFXIV, especially when the PS3 version launches.

Never underestimate the power of marketing though. Marketing can absolutely make or break a game. In fact, FFXIV is a great example of this. The game has been improved tremendously over the past year-and-a-half, to the point that it already feels like a 2.0, and yet it still has a reputation for being a broken game. That's because there's been no serious, large-scale marketing push to recast the game's image. The development team has been smart in waiting for 2.0 to get close before setting out to change how people perceive FFXIV.

Change the perception, get people to try it out at 2.0, and the game will be fine.
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#32 Jul 15 2012 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Never underestimate the power of marketing though. Marketing can absolutely make or break a game. In fact, FFXIV is a great example of this. The game has been improved tremendously over the past year-and-a-half, to the point that it already feels like a 2.0, and yet it still has a reputation for being a broken game. That's because there's been no serious, large-scale marketing push to recast the game's image. The development team has been smart in waiting for 2.0 to get close before setting out to change how people perceive FFXIV.


I agree they are smart not to market the game until 2.0, but I disagree on the reason.

I think it's smart because FFXIV is still a broken game until the underlying game engine gets replaced, and by starting the marketing now, they'd just be reinforcing the negative impression FFXIV already built up once the critics call them on it. The only chance FFXIV has is with glowing, gushing reviews from the finely tuned game 2.0 had better turn out to be, not from a mish-mash of whatever concepts they can spare to scrape on to the half-baked engine they have running now. It's not to say I can't appreciate what FFXIV "wants" to be with what's there now, but it's all for nothing until it's a smoothly running experience.
#33 Jul 15 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Never underestimate the power of marketing though. Marketing can absolutely make or break a game. In fact, FFXIV is a great example of this. The game has been improved tremendously over the past year-and-a-half, to the point that it already feels like a 2.0, and yet it still has a reputation for being a broken game. That's because there's been no serious, large-scale marketing push to recast the game's image. The development team has been smart in waiting for 2.0 to get close before setting out to change how people perceive FFXIV.

Change the perception, get people to try it out at 2.0, and the game will be fine.


Going by past experience with FFXI, I'm not expecting much from their marketing dept.
#34 Jul 15 2012 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Never underestimate the power of marketing though. Marketing can absolutely make or break a game. In fact, FFXIV is a great example of this. The game has been improved tremendously over the past year-and-a-half, to the point that it already feels like a 2.0, and yet it still has a reputation for being a broken game. That's because there's been no serious, large-scale marketing push to recast the game's image. The development team has been smart in waiting for 2.0 to get close before setting out to change how people perceive FFXIV.

Change the perception, get people to try it out at 2.0, and the game will be fine.

SE doesn't do marketing very well. This is even further complicated by the fact that they're going to have to reverse the perception of a failed MMO. People seem to forget that it wasn't until a few years ago that SE bothered to do things like a community site, taking polls to get players involved and actually listening to feedback.

Sage Sundi (remember that guy?) was quoted as saying something to the effect of 'SE will not be running a community site. We will leave it up to the players to create websites for that'. If there is one thing SE is still good at, it's cutting corners and being cheap. I somehow think that they'll settle for word of mouth and a 30 day trial to do their advertising for them.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#35 Jul 16 2012 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
SE doesn't do marketing very well. This is even further complicated by the fact that they're going to have to reverse the perception of a failed MMO. People seem to forget that it wasn't until a few years ago that SE bothered to do things like a community site, taking polls to get players involved and actually listening to feedback.


You are certainly correct. From the launch of FFXI to the early days of FFXIV, marketing and communication were far from being strengths of SE. However, the top brass at SE seem to have realized they can't expect to be successful when doing business with blinders on. Whether it's Yoshi-P or someone else deciding to communicate with players and the gaming media, SE seems to have really turned a corner with an increased emphasis on marketing.

I expect to see a stronger-than-usual effort from SE to change the perception from "failed game" to "relaunched game."
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#36 Jul 16 2012 at 4:17 AM Rating: Good
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What I wonder is whether or not the printed discs after 2.0 hits will cost more or not. I could easily find copies of the game on Amazon.co.uk for about 4$ for some months ago sealed. Would retailers get rid of the old copies of the game because they would think 1.0 is an entirely different game? Who knows, maybe they will sell the new version for 60$ and claim it to be an entirely different game.
#37 Jul 16 2012 at 6:42 AM Rating: Default
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Solonuke wrote:
What I wonder is whether or not the printed discs after 2.0 hits will cost more or not. I could easily find copies of the game on Amazon.co.uk for about 4$ for some months ago sealed. Would retailers get rid of the old copies of the game because they would think 1.0 is an entirely different game? Who knows, maybe they will sell the new version for 60$ and claim it to be an entirely different game.


They won't cost more than the old boxes unless they come with something nifty. I honestly don't see them changing the packaging. Even though we all know 2.0 is supposed to be a different game, it's still Final Fantasy XIV. I honestly don't expect them to change the packaging for it. It's SE we're talking about here...
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#38 Jul 16 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Only advertisement I'm expecting is the typical internet barrage you always see. Don't expect TV spots or anything like that.
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#39 Jul 16 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Solonuke wrote:
What I wonder is whether or not the printed discs after 2.0 hits will cost more or not. I could easily find copies of the game on Amazon.co.uk for about 4$ for some months ago sealed. Would retailers get rid of the old copies of the game because they would think 1.0 is an entirely different game? Who knows, maybe they will sell the new version for 60$ and claim it to be an entirely different game.


They won't cost more than the old boxes unless they come with something nifty. I honestly don't see them changing the packaging. Even though we all know 2.0 is supposed to be a different game, it's still Final Fantasy XIV. I honestly don't expect them to change the packaging for it. It's SE we're talking about here...


They'll change the packaging. I love how people overuse the phrase "its SE we're talking about here". Oh you mean the multi-billion dollar company? You mean the company that has suceeded for the majority of its lifetime. The company that's sat tops in terms of JRPGs where even when its stumbled its still considered the best?

Its not as if SE is incompetent, they have some veritable achievements. If SE has always went with a sub par marketing strategy its because they thought that that would be enough, not because they have incompetent management on that end. And if SE hopes to succeed in the re-launch of this game they'll need to amplify their marketing strategy and i bet this happens. This includes a new package for the game so that when people who are none the wiser walk into a store and see the new packaging for XIV they start getting curious about it again.



Edited, Jul 16th 2012 5:06pm by kyara10

Edited, Jul 16th 2012 5:09pm by kyara10
#40 Jul 16 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
I love how people overuse the phrase "its SE we're talking about here". Oh you mean the multi-billion dollar company? You mean the company that has suceeded for the majority of its lifetime. The company that's sat tops in terms of JRPGs where even when its stumbled its still considered the best?


The shoe fits kyara. Look at the other side of the coin. I understand you want to be optimistic, but don't lose sight of the facts while you're up there in the clouds.

kyara10 wrote:
If SE has always went with a sub par marketing strategy its because they thought that that would be enough, not because they have incompetent management on that end.


SE cuts corners for the same reason any other business does... to save money. It's the reason why there were no regional servers for XI or XIV. It's the reason why there wasn't a big marketing push for XIV the first time around. It's the reason why they didn't staff people for a community site until years after and months after the releases of XI and XIV respectively.

To the bolded part of your statement, SE has expected their franchise to sell games based on the brand name alone. When they were about to die before FF was released they couldn't afford to market. After the success of those first games they didn't really need to market. Eventually that led to the mentality that people will eat FF titles regardless of quality, which has proven true, and SE got comfortable and lazy.

kyara10 wrote:
And if SE hopes to succeed in the re-launch of this game they'll need to amplify their marketing strategy and i bet this happens. This includes a new package for the game so that when people who are none the wiser walk into a store and see the new packaging for XIV they start getting curious about it again.

Marketing is not going to make much of a dent in the rep SE earned for their previous track record. People will still remember XI as the game that goes 3 years between completing expansion content and going 5 years between releasing them. This is what people will care about when choosing whether or not a service is worth a monthly fee. No one is going to give a **** about a shiny new box.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#41 Jul 16 2012 at 6:42 PM Rating: Default
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Right. OK we'll talk again after release.
#42 Jul 16 2012 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
Right. OK we'll talk again after release.

Is it still called deja vu if you feel like you've experienced something before more than once? Lets hope we don't have to find out...
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#43 Jul 16 2012 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
Right. OK we'll talk again after release.


Now you're talking!

Look, Filth is a FFXIV expert, but not only that, he SE like he knows his back pocket, and he knows the business. But it's not only that! He knows other games (ask his opinion about some sketchy game released in the early 90s and he will tell you exactly what went wrong with that) and well, and he is a marketing expert too. And all this time you thought you were special, right?

And his predictions, he says, have all come true. That makes him, like, eem... the Black Cassandra Nostradamus of predicting! The Allakhazam of fortune telling.

We're talking about a guy here who could be so incredibly valuable to any game company or magazine that he could make a lot of money, but who chooses to spend a lot of time on a game forum of a game he has not been playing for a long time now just to help us se the light.

And don't you dare to say that he has a sick mind!! Of course he will be the first one to tell you that he hopes that FFXIV succeeds, and that his words do not affect the choice of new forum visitors to start playing, and that he is being rated down for telling it like it is, and that he is only stating facts.

And what Filth says, is the truth. And if you don't believe me, then I will use his well-documented and proven technique on you and counter with: prove... me... otherwise!
#45 Jul 17 2012 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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Aw, I got nuked for negativity. Ironic, considering it was a reply to someone who has no shortage of negative things to say about me. Dev challenge! Go look at this guy's posts, count up all the ones that he praises me in and compare to post count.

Fans these days... Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Jul 17th 2012 3:45am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#46 Jul 19 2012 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Now you're talking!

Look, Filth is a FFXIV expert, but not only that, he SE like he knows his back pocket, and he knows the business. But it's not only that! He knows other games (ask his opinion about some sketchy game released in the early 90s and he will tell you exactly what went wrong with that) and well, and he is a marketing expert too. And all this time you thought you were special, right?

And his predictions, he says, have all come true. That makes him, like, eem... the Black Cassandra Nostradamus of predicting! The Allakhazam of fortune telling.

We're talking about a guy here who could be so incredibly valuable to any game company or magazine that he could make a lot of money, but who chooses to spend a lot of time on a game forum of a game he has not been playing for a long time now just to help us se the light.

And don't you dare to say that he has a sick mind!! Of course he will be the first one to tell you that he hopes that FFXIV succeeds, and that his words do not affect the choice of new forum visitors to start playing, and that he is being rated down for telling it like it is, and that he is only stating facts.

And what Filth says, is the truth. And if you don't believe me, then I will use his well-documented and proven technique on you and counter with: prove... me... otherwise!


No idea who you're talking about, what you're arguing about, or who YOU are... But I just have to point this out:

The passion, ego-stroking and personal insult with which you are defending this other poster, is screaming that you are probably his sock.
(or in love with him)

Just sayin'...

Edited, Jul 19th 2012 2:24am by RattyBatty
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#47 Jul 19 2012 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
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User-bashing aside, they did already confirm that there will be new packaging for 2.0 and re-launch campaign.
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#48 Jul 19 2012 at 12:37 AM Rating: Default
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RattyBatty wrote:
No idea who you're talking about, what you're arguing about, or who YOU are... But I just have to point this out:

The passion, ego-stroking and personal insult with which you are defending this other poster, is screaming that you are probably his sock.
(or in love with him)

Just sayin'...


I wish I could see more than just the last few of his recent posts because I can assure you that 90% of them are flame-aimed at me. Kyara10 isn't on my short list of suspects though. My Kojak skills are pretty good too Smiley: nod
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#50 Jul 19 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Do we have any reason to believe that 2.0 will succeed?


No, for all intents and purpose v2.0 could be the final nail before the burial.

We do however have the hope that 2.0 will be a great success, even if the reasoning isn't there.
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#51 Jul 19 2012 at 5:09 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RattyBatty wrote:
No idea who you're talking about, what you're arguing about, or who YOU are... But I just have to point this out:

The passion, ego-stroking and personal insult with which you are defending this other poster, is screaming that you are probably his sock.
(or in love with him)

Just sayin'...


I wish I could see more than just the last few of his recent posts because I can assure you that 90% of them are flame-aimed at me. Kyara10 isn't on my short list of suspects though. My Kojak skills are pretty good too Smiley: nod


Thank god. Cuz i dont know who you are and i have no ill feeling whatsoever towards you. Everyone argues on ZAM and when i said we'll talk after release i meant we'll see how it turns out. You burned me out tbh and i didnt feel like having this back and forth dance any more. And i get sub defaulted and accused of having a sock account...i dont even know mrmissles and he's posted ONE post directed at me and he's my sock account?

So much *** kissing on these boards too.
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