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Do we have any reason to believe that 2.0 will succeed?Follow

#202 Aug 10 2012 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
The name 'levequest' is completely irrelvant to the topic and you know it.

The function of a quest in FFXI and FFXIV are so desperate from levequests that your statement is borderline flame-bait.


A quest is a quest is a quest Hyrist. You're splitting hairs and getting way technical when at the core, they're the same thing. You search for something and retrieve it, kill it, repair it, bandage it... what have you. Varying degrees and quantities, but it's all the same ****. The only difference between a levequest and a quest you might do in another game is instead of talking to an NPC who sends you on your way with a story, you toss a nifty item that looks like a playing card at a talking rock.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#203 Aug 11 2012 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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As I said before, you're overgeneralizing. By your standard, - taking it by the broadest definition of the term, everything is a quest. Primals, Hamlet defense, story-line, they're all 'quests', by the strictest definition. So is the entirety of MMO content in general, unless it's user generated, and even then we can ague that it is a user generated 'quest'.

The execution of such is so much more important, and what defines each away from one another, and your base general term. So Leves are as much 'just a quest' are you are an 'just an animal.'

It's not splitting hairs so much as it is making an accurate definition, as opposed to a general one.

Now I don't blame you for being overly general. After so many years of playing MMOs, they all start to feel the same. But if you don't appreciate the difference, then the problem may not just lie within the execution, but with your interest in the Genre as a whole.

Designers are in a pickle when the backbone of MMOs itself is viewed at as trite and boring. SE tried to distill it into something quick and easy to get into with Levequests. Guild Wars 2 tried to make it spontaneous with livequests. They're all 'quests' but they differ enough from each other to merit their distinction.

This is especially true with Leves and normal quests in FFXIV, regardless if they're all boiled down to "Go here, do this, come back."

****, you can define my work day as a quest with that general of a statement. (But if that's the case, I want my paycheck to level up. My DPR sucks!)

But enough arguing on that point.

Filth, your description doesn't really sound like you're interested in questing all that much. What ARE you interested in - primarily? Not just about FFXIV but in MMOs in general. What are you looking for?
#204 Aug 11 2012 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like to point out that many MMO's have taken quite a variety of approaches to grinding. However one thing remains the same with most successful MMORPG's; they all have some sort of grind to separate the new players with existing ones. It creates a sort of balance in the game. If you go to wikipedia and search for 'Grinding (video gaming)', there is a great list on that page about the different approaches recent MMO's have taken. I was quite surprised at the variety of methods implemented.

So back on the topic of will 2.0 succeed? I think it largely depends on how the fan-base receives the grind method put into place. It seems they are going more of a "quest grind" according to a recent interview, which bears some similarities to how WoW played.
#205 Aug 11 2012 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Another thing we could approach as a discussion is why people dislike the grind, and why companies are doing what they can to reduce the feel of it.

To be honest, the reason why grinding feels bad by many players is the feeling of being incomplete. This is associated directly with leveling because certain core abilities are withheld until later levels. Not only that, games tend to mistakenly put the bulk of the enjoyable gameplay at 'endgame' - which I believe personally to be an error.

FFXIV tries to shorten the grind so that the repeatable endgame stuff is quickly accessed - but I believe the main emphasis should be placed on making the process feel enjoyable and the player feel like an important element at all stages of the game.

Guild Wars changes it up by separating the process in which skills and levels are obtained: though they run mostly along the same pacing to one another. However, the core abilities of each class are accessible from early levels. Your bread-and butter abilities? They're pretty much given to you at the start of the game, instead of giving them to you gradually. Progression is then gleaned from gaining utility abilities and traits that further hone these basic skills.

FFXIV has began to make a similar approach - job abilities are quested separate from the root abilities you normally gain through leveling. But I feel that these base skills are still tied too deeply to leveling to bypass the feeling of "must get cap level to not be gimp".

I think taking that approach will make the whole of an MMO better. Less about building up slowly, more about seeking mastery of things available to you early.

Hmm. An idea is brewing.
#206 Aug 11 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing we could approach as a discussion is why people dislike the grind, and why companies are doing what they can to reduce the feel of it.


People dislike the grind because by definition a grind is something to dislike. This only gets confusing when you have players claiming that they "like the grind." Nobody likes the grind... that's what makes it a grind. If you like it, then by definition it's not a grind. It's subjective in a sense, but as I alluded earlier (maybe in another thread?) just because it's subjective doesn't mean there isn't an objectively measurable general preference.

Grinding is by definition an almost purely extrinsically motivated behavior. It's work. People don't generally like something that is strictly work, but they do it anyway to reap the rewards. It's by no means essential that games have these elements; it's just the trend in MMOs. It appeals to players who are highly dedicated to reaching goals even if it requires a compulsory and masochistic repetition of behavior. As I used to say, it's like being conditioned to want to work on a factory line, without the pay.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#207 Aug 11 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist my initial reply to your post if you remember, was in response to what you refer to as 'gameplay'. I took it in context of what you said(UI, auction, ect.) and didn't blow it out into an argument over semantics. The term 'gameplay' is all encompassing of MMO content too so let's not stroll that avenue.

Speaking of context...

Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Another thing we could approach as a discussion is why people dislike the grind, and why companies are doing what they can to reduce the feel of it.


People dislike the grind because by definition a grind is something to dislike. This only gets confusing when you have players claiming that they "like the grind." Nobody likes the grind... that's what makes it a grind.

Not necessarily, but obviously it depends on how it's used.

The time put into whatever it is you're doing is what makes it a grind. Whether or not you like it is of no consequence. If it happens that you don't like it, that's a design flaw. It's completely within the realm of possibility to make a time sink entertaining.

As an example, I play LoL and I 'grind' the points needed to unlock more characters, stat upgrades or whatever else. It's a grind because it takes a lot of time and games played to get everything unlocked. I don't get any less entertainment from the game simply knowing that it will take months to get everything because I really enjoy playing the matches.

It would be nice to see companies develop content that has value beyond it's material utility. Give me an event that I still want to participate in regularly because it's enjoyable even after I have earned enough points, tokens, influence or whatever to get any spoils I may have been after. There is something to be said for creating content like this. You don't always have to make something seem like a pain in the *** to force players into continuing to sub month after month. Simply designing a game that is fun to play in the long run makes more sense, to me at least.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#208 Aug 12 2012 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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It's completely within the realm of possibility to make a time sink entertaining.


This was actually the point of my post-- if the time sink is entertaining, then it isn't a grind. Whether or not something is a grind is not a function of the intention of the feature, but whether or not the player's motivation reaches a threshold. Obviously this is a semantic point, but it's based on an important underlying conceptual point. There is no value in trying to define a grind as a "time sink," because whether or not something is a time sink depends more upon intra-player factors than on the intentions of the designers. Everything in a game takes time, whether or not that time is a "sink" depends upon whether the player perceives the time as wasted, i.e., boring. While certainly it's not hard to come up with features that the vast majority of players would consider a time sink, what you're ultimately talking about in these instances is an extrinsic motivator and work, which may be incidentally entertaining or "entertaining" in a loose sense, but are not fun in and of themselves.

There are decades of research detailing the psychology of fun and games, and you won't find the term "time sink" anywhere outside of video games, because it's a colloquial term for a phenomenon that is already well-understood... but you will find the term "grind." The term is often commonly misused in discussions about video games due to misunderstanding the finer points of it, so I was just trying to clarify.

Anyway, long story short, a grind is by definition a work-like perception of the player. While designers can and often do intentionally attempt to create that grind--for better or worse--a grind is a subjective player state, not an objective design feature.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#209 Aug 12 2012 at 12:07 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
This was actually the point of my post-- if the time sink is entertaining, then it isn't a grind.

Anyway, long story short, a grind is by definition a work-like perception of the player.

Whether or not you enjoy the grind is not instrumental to the meaning, nor is the reward.

A grind is just repetition. If a time sink has you repeating the same tasks over and over and over, then it's also a grind.


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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#210 Aug 12 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
This was actually the point of my post-- if the time sink is entertaining, then it isn't a grind.

Anyway, long story short, a grind is by definition a work-like perception of the player.

Whether or not you enjoy the grind is not instrumental to the meaning, nor is the reward.

A grind is just repetition. If a time sink has you repeating the same tasks over and over and over, then it's also a grind.




Only if you're not enjoying it. I agree with Kachi's definition of a grind in that its subjective however majority wins and if majority thinks 'xp camping' is a grind then it becomes defined as such. IMO questing is as much a grind and can get boring fast. I think the entire MMO genre needs a facelift.
#211 Aug 12 2012 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
This was actually the point of my post-- if the time sink is entertaining, then it isn't a grind.

Anyway, long story short, a grind is by definition a work-like perception of the player.

Whether or not you enjoy the grind is not instrumental to the meaning, nor is the reward.

A grind is just repetition. If a time sink has you repeating the same tasks over and over and over, then it's also a grind.


The problem with this conceptualization is: repetition of what? All things are fundamentally repetitive on one or more levels, and few things are absolutely repetitive such that there is no difference at all. e.g., you're just killing monsters over and over, or just using the same abilities over and over, or just pressing buttons over and over... but there are some differences in every iteration. The extent to which the action is repetitive determines the player's ability to identify the patterns, find the challenge insufficient, and then become bored. Suppose you have a challenging opponent in chess. Would playing them over and over be a grind? Would moving the same pieces one turn at a time be a grind? Probably not, even though these are repetitive executions of the game mechanics the same as in an MMO. Now, suppose you're paid to play a hundred matches with a seven year old. The game will probably become a grind quite quickly. The game of chess remains mechanically the same; it is your boredom that causes the regular fundamental game mechanics to seem like work, rather than play.

By the way, I hope you don't take my argument as intending to start something with you... just engaging in some educational mental *************
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#212 Aug 12 2012 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
This was actually the point of my post-- if the time sink is entertaining, then it isn't a grind.

Anyway, long story short, a grind is by definition a work-like perception of the player.

Whether or not you enjoy the grind is not instrumental to the meaning, nor is the reward.

A grind is just repetition. If a time sink has you repeating the same tasks over and over and over, then it's also a grind.


The problem with this conceptualization is: repetition of what?

There isn't a problem with it because it's all encompassing. It doesn't matter what it is that you are doing, for how long or how much you enjoy it; if it's repetitive then it's grind. 500 killing blows with a weaponskill? Grind. Kill 3 rats for a levequest? Grind. Yesterday, firesday, your name day, your birthday... grind.

Kachi wrote:
By the way, I hope you don't take my argument as intending to start something with you...

Well, I hope you do take my losing interest in this nonsensical argument about such a simple concept as intending to finish it Smiley: glare
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#213 Aug 12 2012 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
There isn't a problem with it because it's all encompassing. It doesn't matter what it is that you are doing, for how long or how much you enjoy it; if it's repetitive then it's grind. 500 killing blows with a weaponskill? Grind. Kill 3 rats for a levequest? Grind. Yesterday, firesday, your name day, your birthday... grind.


The repetetive complaints and bashing of someone who does not even play FFXIV anymore and does not intend to play 2.0 either: grind.
#214 Aug 13 2012 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Definitely.

(Btw: What a useless, vain, and utterly pointless debate. Even considering this is a game forum. Boring. Where's the drama?)
#215 Aug 13 2012 at 5:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Where's the drama?


Did someone call the Drama Fairy?


*slaps a banana cream pie in Filthy's face*

*calls MrMissile a ****-Commie-Socialist-Fascist*

*lights Rinsui's foot on fire*

*insinuates something about Hyrist's mother*

*features embarrassing footage of Tychondrias all over the internets*

*stuffs a kitten with extra sharp claws in Kyara10's bra*

*swaps Kachi's M key with the N key on his keyboard*




My work here is done. Smiley: clown

*self-defenestrates*
#216 Aug 13 2012 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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You had me at Purple Text. The eyes bleed.

Edited, Aug 13th 2012 10:28am by Louiscool
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#217 Aug 13 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Bleeding. More drama. Approved.
#218 Aug 13 2012 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There isn't a problem with it because it's all encompassing. It doesn't matter what it is that you are doing, for how long or how much you enjoy it; if it's repetitive then it's grind. 500 killing blows with a weaponskill? Grind. Kill 3 rats for a levequest? Grind. Yesterday, firesday, your name day, your birthday... grind.


I can see you didn't quite get my point, so let me speak more plainly.

By your definition, everything which constitutes the game is a grind. As you just said, everything is essentially repetitive. Therefor, everything is a grind. If a word can be applied to everything, it defines nothing, and so, becomes useless.

The definition you provided isn't what people generally mean when they refer to the grind, but even if it was, it would be a meaningless thing to say.

As for the subject being boring, it's not to me. As I've gathered in my tenure here, amusement of the self is the sole purpose of the majority of threads. It's better than grinding XP :p
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#219 Aug 13 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Yawn.
#220 Aug 13 2012 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I can see you didn't quite get my point, so let me speak more plainly.


I didn't read beyond the second sentence of you previous post. I stopped reading here on this one. I am not interested in your point. Is that spoken plainly enough for you?

I hate your face Smiley: glare
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#221 Aug 13 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
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Oh! Now we are getting somewhere!!! Smiley: lol
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#222 Aug 13 2012 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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How many days till first 2.0 gameplay videos? I feel like this forum could use some new stuff do discuss :p
#223 Aug 13 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Filth, what is it in an MMO do you even want?

You seem to refer to Grind as a negative, yet, by definition list it as anything that remotely repeats - even if the repetition is voluntary and enjoyable.

Let's got back to your League of Legends example and show you the difference between what I believe is a grind, or, for fairness, what is more or less of a grind in comparison.

If you were go into a Raid in FFXIV, the monster placement, difficulty, and objectives are all identical. Yet, if you go into a League of Legends game. Unless you are the same people picking the same champions pushing the same builds and fighting the same ways, no two encounters are ever the same.

Many people will not consiter the second to be a grind - and it all really boils down to how much you generalize the gameplay.

Taking my LoL example in a more general sense:

Solo Queue, pick champion, fight game, get IP, repeat until you have IP for champ.

It seems far-far more like a grind as you say.

This is my point to you, whether or not you are interested in it: It is the details that separate things from one another. The more you generalize it, the less you will appreciate it. While game design can help you appreciate these details that differentiate game-play, ultimately it will rely upon you to enjoy it or not.

I'll make a fair presumption that you will not enjoy A Realm Reborn. You tend to paint with a very wide brush so pretty much any gameplay will likely feel like the same old stuff.

SE would really have to knock it out of the park to get you interested.
#224 Aug 13 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I was being serious btw :p I know its sometimes this week but not sure when
#225 Aug 13 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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Well patch notes are up, that might distract us for .2 seconds...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/51545-patch-1.23a-Patch-1.23a-Notes
#226 Aug 13 2012 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
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Oh no, this is the typical "I'm bored at work, let's start an argument" thing for me.

Personally I'm just antsy about Gamescon (I'm also watching the LoL tournaments.) and the Ren Faire meet-up this weekend on my end.

This crap here on the forums? Passes the time until the more exciting things. Work can be quite dull.



Edited, Aug 13th 2012 6:15pm by Hyrist
#227FilthMcNasty, Posted: Aug 13 2012 at 5:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) These just happened to be a few of the first sentences I posted. I understand that there are a lot of people who will just dismiss anything I post as negative but if you're going to comment, the least you guys could do is read the first few sentences. If you can't be bothered to read and comprehend what you are reading, I can't justify reading and responding to yours. No offense.
#228 Aug 13 2012 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quoting yourself out of context of your entire post trends matters little - I asked you a question and if you cannot bother to reply, then what is your purpose here?

You cease to discuss and begin to monologue, Filth. This is a bad sign.

Now I will state my question a third time:

What are you looking for in an MMO?

#229 Aug 13 2012 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
People dislike the grind because by definition a grind is something to dislike.

Not necessarily, but obviously it depends on how it's used.

The time put into whatever it is you're doing is what makes it a grind. Whether or not you like it is of no consequence. If it happens that you don't like it, that's a design flaw. It's completely within the realm of possibility to make a time sink entertaining.


I respond in disagreement with Kachi's statement that a grind is something negative by definition, yet for some reason you read that as me agreeing. Can't tell if serious...

Strike two man. Choke up on the bat a little.

Edited, Aug 13th 2012 7:46pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#230 Aug 13 2012 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Irrelevant to the question I asked Filth - which takes priority over all else.

If you can't be bothered to explain your vision, I can't be bothered to respect it.

So please do explain thoroughly what your ideal for an MMO is. What are you waiting on?

By the way "Not Necessarily." Is not a personal disagreement, it's a devils advocate disagreement used to debate the topic in academia, it shows little personal investment in the topic itself.

Edited, Aug 13th 2012 7:59pm by Hyrist
#231 Aug 13 2012 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I think MMOs need to move away from being so focused on character progression (inevitably involving grind) and more focused on immersing oneself in a virtual world and just enjoying the game for the gameplay like adventuring with others, trading and manufacturing, role playing, PVP conflict, etc. I'm not sure how to do that, but a more horizontal approach EVE seems like a pretty good model (though I find real-time skill training fishy). Getting rid of character levels would be a start.

Most MMOs would not be compelling to play at all if you took away the "must keep playing to get stronger" element. I don't want to be playing games out of this kind of addiction, so this is why I'm tired of the genre.
#232 Aug 14 2012 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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^^^ No. We would have to sacrifice a lot of gameplay for "Immersion"
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#233 Aug 14 2012 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure what you mean. The gameplay of almost all MMOs is absolutely terrible already.

The whole genre needs a rethink.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 3:41pm by Dizmo
#234 Aug 14 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:


The whole genre needs a rethink.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 3:41pm by Dizmo


No doubt. Now the question is when the devs/editors are going to figure it out, already figured it out. Because between the time you start working on a game and the moment its released there is what, 6+ years (?) passing by?

I wonder if next possible big hits such as ArcheAge or EQNext are any different from what we know
#235 Aug 14 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Cole80 wrote:
Dizmo wrote:


The whole genre needs a rethink.


No doubt. Now the question is when the devs/editors are going to figure it out, already figured it out. Because between the time you start working on a game and the moment its released there is what, 6+ years (?) passing by?

I wonder if next possible big hits such as ArcheAge or EQNext are any different from what we know


I think the Genera is well aware of the fact that it needs to rethink. The problem is, there hasn't yet been a company that's created a well thought out answer to the question of "how do you re-do MMOs?"

And, honestly, I think the reason is because the answer is not universal. We've got many gamers who will jump from game to game, trying it out, but ultimately not being satisfied - and it's not because that the game isn't unique. There are plenty of unique mechanics in each game released, but none of them seem to 'click' with a specific, unspoken and possibly unrealized desire from the players.

What is that desire? It's likely different for everyone, and worse, many players likely do not even know themselves.
#236 Aug 14 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't read beyond the second sentence of you previous post. I stopped reading here on this one. I am not interested in your point. Is that spoken plainly enough for you?


No need to be ***** about it. This is a forum. Just because I am responding to you does not mean I am talking solely to you. If that were my concern, I would have PM'd you. For that matter, I am not particularly concerned with whether anyone finds it interesting. I'm not a mind-reader, so maybe they will, and maybe they won't. I'm quite sure that 99% of the content of this forum is posted with the same attitude.

I also notice that on the same page you claim that you didn't read past my second sentence, you seem upset that others didn't read your first few sentences.

Anyway, I've been around Zam more than long enough to know that people come here to **** away their time--same reason I'm here now--but I'm not feeling particularly apologetic if others find me uninteresting. The best way to not get a response from me is to not respond to me. If you can't resist the urge to get the last word in, then congratulations on becoming my next reluctant debate partner.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#237 Aug 14 2012 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I also notice that on the same page you claim that you didn't read past my second sentence, you seem upset that others didn't read your first few sentences.


I wasn't upset that people didn't read it, just that they didn't understand it. Perhaps you are smarter than the average poster, but you had no problem comprehending it. I just don't see any way that someone could come away from the first few sentences thinking that grind = negative is my viewpoint, much less several posts about how and why I disagree.

I read all of your posts up until the point that I mentioned it. I just wasn't interested in discussing philosophical interpretation of a generally accepted definition.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 11:05pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#238 Aug 15 2012 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

I wasn't upset that people didn't read it, just that they didn't understand it. Perhaps you are smarter than the average poster, but you had no problem comprehending it. I just don't see any way that someone could come away from the first few sentences thinking that grind = negative is my viewpoint, much less several posts about how and why I disagree.

I read all of your posts up until the point that I mentioned it. I just wasn't interested in discussing philosophical interpretation of a generally accepted definition.


Let's establish further context here. During our discourse, I took the impression that you have a negative light of FFXIV's Grind systems (clarification for you). In particular, Levequests.

Yet, you depicted a game outside of an MMO, League of Legends, as a positive grind. When I said, and I quote:

Quote:
Filth, what is it in an MMO do you even want?

You seem to refer to Grind as a negative, yet, by definition list it as anything that remotely repeats - even if the repetition is voluntary and enjoyable.


To clarify that statement further for you: You were saying a grind isn't a bad thing when the gameplay is enjoyable. Let me pull the quote where you implied that:

Quote:
As an example, I play LoL and I 'grind' the points needed to unlock more characters, stat upgrades or whatever else. It's a grind because it takes a lot of time and games played to get everything unlocked. I don't get any less entertainment from the game simply knowing that it will take months to get everything because I really enjoy playing the matches.


But instead of arguing the mechanics of what could turn FFXIV's grind, which you referr as negative, to something more enjoyable like your LoL, we got tied up in semantics. Not uncommon when you're using multi-use words.

But the initial question here still stands. In your last paragraph in that initial post you stated:

"FilthMcNasty" wrote:
It would be nice to see companies develop content that has value beyond it's material utility. Give me an event that I still want to participate in regularly because it's enjoyable even after I have earned enough points, tokens, influence or whatever to get any spoils I may have been after. There is something to be said for creating content like this. You don't always have to make something seem like a pain in the *** to force players into continuing to sub month after month. Simply designing a game that is fun to play in the long run makes more sense, to me at least.


And I agree with the sentiment. But stating as such does not clarify what makes a content worth repeating - especially on a broad scale.

I enjoy Levequests. I think they get boring after too long because there's not enough randomization in how each particular leve unfolds. At least not after repeating them a few dozen times. But there are 3 regions for each level section (More at 30 when you have the option to do dungeon ones.) So you get rewarded with more variance when you explore.

But you do not. You said it yourself - if you don't enjoy a mechanic it's broken. And while I'd argue that you can never create a mechanic everyone will enjoy, I do believe we should make efforts to design each game function with a wide appeal.

So we get right back to the question I'll still be asking you at every turn: What is it in an MMO you want? - That's the question all feedback should boil down to here. You want something you can repeat an enjoy regardless of the loot. What is it that you enjoy repeating? What things can be added to specific mechanics that would make them more enjoyable for you?

There may be examples in the game that have been implemented since you left that meet them. The rest can be brought to the developer's attentions.

Not everything that is needed can be inferred by going to one grind and saying "This is bad." and going to another grind and saying "This is good." It really even isn't about the examples. It's more about your desires. So, make them clear, and use specifics, rather than base generalizations.
#239 Aug 15 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
But instead of arguing the mechanics of what could turn FFXIV's grind, which you referr as negative, to something more enjoyable like your LoL, we got tied up in semantics. Not uncommon when you're using multi-use words.

The statement was never about FFXIV Hyrist. We didn't get tied up in semantics, you did because you somehow linked all of it to XIV. It was never stated or implied in my response. It was simply about the way a word is defined. Not as it applies to XIV or any specific mechanic of XIV, but as a general meaning.

One man's trash is another man's treasure applies quite nicely here and is yet another reason I didn't get into specifics about mechanics. For example, XI's party grind was a mechanic that some people loved and some people hated. No matter what my stance is on this specific case, it doesn't have any bearing on the definition.

Hyrist wrote:
So we get right back to the question I'll still be asking you at every turn: What is it in an MMO you want? - That's the question all feedback should boil down to here.


That was the question all the feedback boiled down to over two years ago when I posted it in the official testing forums. Should I get accepted to beta testing for 2.0 I'll leave feedback there as well. We've already done this dance before Hyrist. My feet are tired.


Edited, Aug 15th 2012 2:53pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#240 Aug 15 2012 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Really? Because you're dancing around the question just fine.

Point of the matter is, you can't even answer a straight question when confronted with one. All you do here is commentate, often to the tone of being off topic. (Reminder, this is the FFXIV forums, this is a FFXIV related thread. All discussions within those two umbrellas is about topic relevant to that.)

Rather than commentating that I am tired of seeing it, I am going to, unceasingly, confront each of your conversations with a question to make it relevant to FFXIV. I'll also make sure to ask you for your personal point of view instead of encouraging that you argue sub-culture slang definitions as if they're definition is doctrine.

How you react will be your choice.
#241FilthMcNasty, Posted: Aug 15 2012 at 3:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The point of the matter is that I've answered that question, on various occasions, and all it leads to is incessant ******** about how I'm ******** incessantly. I left my feedback for the developers where it belonged in the official tester forums. I have also had discussion with you about this so I'm not sure why you want to wildly flail that horse again.
#242 Aug 15 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.

Filth...I would have to say you are falling under #3. Your excuse to not answer saying its because you have already explained what you want sometime over the last 2 years buried in all your BS and self glorification...well...is kind of pathetic.

You won't answer simply because you do not want anyone to know what you want. If we did...then we could easily call you out once more and more information about the new version surfaces. If SE comes through with what is on your wish list...you will lose your opportunity to hold court. No more "Look at me...I was right". You will just fade away and hopefully go to some other failed MMO and start over.

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#243 Aug 15 2012 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Really? Because you're dancing around the question just fine.

Point of the matter is, you can't even answer a straight question when confronted with one.


The point of the matter is that I've answered that question, on various occasions, and all it leads to is incessant ******** about how I'm ******** incessantly. I left my feedback for the developers where it belonged in the official tester forums. I have also had discussion with you about this so I'm not sure why you want to wildly flail that horse again.

I do like how instead of admitting that you were wrong, you try to present me with an ultimatum. Ball is in my court? You're standing on the court alone with the lights out Hyrist. "Somebody play with me!" glwt


Wait... let me get this straight..

...the person who has been repeating his complaints and plain rants about FFXIV and SE on ZAM for about two years now does not want to repeat his list of things he wants to see in an MMO??

Looking good, Filth, looking mighty good!
#244 Aug 15 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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YAY!☆Forum Drama☆
Someone grace us with another round of irrelevant dictionary definitions, so we can finally start the party.

Seriously guys, today may well be the first day in 2 years SE actually provided something better to discuss about than the shape of our own bellybuttons. Relax, chill, enjoy the screenshots, ***** about the texture quality of the grass for a change.

Edited, Aug 15th 2012 5:50pm by Rinsui
#245 Aug 15 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Once again, you're over-generalizing, which I believe is your quintessential perceptive problem. Although, I could be wrong and this is just a recent trend you're taking. But if so, it's not helping anyone on these boards to reinforce it.
Granted, given the treatment you get on these boards, you deserve to be closed and jaded. So let's try a different approach:

I apologize for my misscommunication. When I said you view the grind in a negative light, it was meant within the context of FFXIV - something I've tried to stick back into the relevance of this forums, given the fact that this is the FFXIV boards and A Realm Reborn is now staring us right in the face. It was wrong of me to be so general, and I will make an effort to be mindful of both my contexts and the content of your posts in the future.

It is my intent to continue such a vein, and if you were to entertain me in such ventures, you might find me a great deal more respectful of you. This, however, is not guaranteed as I am human and as much able to slip as you are.

This isn't a matter of 'someone please play with me'. There are plenty of conversational opponents on the internet for me to bat words with. If anything, it expresses a grown interest in your perspective, as a whole, rather than as a topical debate. Gaining a clear idea as to your ideals both in the general sense of MMOs, and in specific subjects, can change the tone of all of the conversations to follow, and that idea is appealing to me.

So I am asking you:

Please, help me break my misconceptions of you. Often I end up disagreeing with you on many matters, but there are rare gems, epecially when it comes to certain game philosophies, where I agree with you. I wish to discover percicely where these aspects are and from them, and see if there are ways they can meet.

So there's the olive branch. Now, to be clear. I don't expect you to take it. In fact I expect you to reinforce all of my and other people's negative views of you, stick up your nose and try to belittle me again. If so I'll just put you on the ignore list and be done with it. But I do want to give this a fair shot.
#246 Aug 15 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
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Simool wrote:
cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion

Filth...I would have to say you are falling under #3. Your excuse to not answer saying its because you have already explained what you want sometime over the last 2 years buried in all your BS and self glorification...well...is kind of pathetic.

Call it what you want to. Why should I go to the trouble of quoting posts I have already made, directly to Hyrist I might add, that already answer his question; especially considering it has nothing to do with the discussion he replied to? I made no commitment to answer the question FYI and honestly, if this question were to be answered in the form of feedback as Hyrist suggests, then he is asking the wrong question anyway.

Rinsui wrote:
Seriously guys, today may well be the first day in 2 years SE actually provided something better to discuss about than the shape of our own bellybuttons.

QFT

Hyrist wrote:
Once again, you're over-generalizing, which I believe is your quintessential perceptive problem.

I apologize for my misscommunication. When I said you view the grind in a negative light, it was meant within the context of FFXIV

The only problem here is that you are trying to impose context to something that has none.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Not necessarily, but obviously it depends on how it's used.

Translation: General statement is general.

The reason I preemptively stated that was because the original statement was a generalization. General statement deserves general response. There is a reason it's called 'generally accepted' definition.

Hyrist wrote:
So there's the olive branch. Now, to be clear. I don't expect you to take it. In fact I expect you to reinforce all of my and other people's negative views of you, stick up your nose and try to belittle me again.

Why is your other hand behind your back?

I'm not sure how or even why a list of things I like in a game would break misconceptions. Again, I'm not going to make another long list of things I need in an MMO to keep me happy, nor will I make another long list of things wrong with or absent from XIV keeping me from enjoying it. No doubt, those lists would be filled with generalities which you seem to have had your fill of.

I will however accept your olive branch and give you this...

In the new footage of gameplay from Gamescom at about :30 into the video a character opens up his character screen and his inventory, he drags and drops items from inventory onto the character window. Now drag and drop has been in games for ages, but I've never seen SE use it and it was sorely needed. One of the bigger gripes I had with 1.0 and consequently, one of the biggest worries I had about 2.0 I think can safely be scratched off the list.

The UI seemed very responsive. I couldn't tell exactly what it was, but the inventory seemed to have smart tabs for organizing your gear. Perhaps some sort of way to equip or swap entire sets of gear quickly will be implemented(or already is), but at the least it looks like you can organize your stash much more effectively. At one point the gear was dropped seemingly randomly over the shadow in the frame and it populated the correct gear slot. A big booster shot of confidence that SE has started to design intuitively. Astronaut leap in the right direction. I was moist.

A specific, non-general example in the context of XIV will have to do for now.

I couldn't care less about how I'm perceived on these boards because haters will hate, but I do give props where due; just not until they're due.

Edited, Aug 15th 2012 8:05pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#247 Aug 16 2012 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Why is your other hand behind your back?


This made me chuckle for RL Reasons. I have a habit of keeping my left hand behind my back. Believe me, there typically nothing in it.


Quote:
I couldn't care less about how I'm perceived on these boards because haters will hate, but I do give props where due; just not until they're due.


One of the reasons I do ask for specific things is that news about 2.0, as well, surfaces and is buried quickly on the official boards. Some of your issues may already have been mentioned or regarded, and you giving a list give me a laundry list of things to display on the official boards that I can be like. "Hey, nice progress, but what about these. These are things that people outside the game are waiting on."

Quite a few of the little things have been discussed. I mean, recently, they said they're making an in-console slider for cutscene voices, and a language selector. Additionally, they're also working to make the character select screen volume also adjustable. It's these little bits that quickly flow in and out of the conversations that are just overlooked.

As you well know, SE's marketing department insults monkeys. But they do listen fairly closely to the official boards. If I can get some specific things brought up and responded to, the more word can be spread about what specifically is fixed.

#248 Aug 16 2012 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
One of the reasons I do ask for specific things is that news about 2.0, as well, surfaces and is buried quickly on the official boards. Some of your issues may already have been mentioned or regarded, and you giving a list give me a laundry list of things to display on the official boards that I can be like. "Hey, nice progress, but what about these. These are things that people outside the game are waiting on."


SE's generic "We are looking into doing something with [insert game mechanic here]" does nothing for me Hyrist. I have very little faith in words for reasons I have already explained. The actual proof I saw in the game footage from Gamescom is all that I would accept as progress. If Yoshi had come out and stated that you could interact with the interface as I mentioned above, I would not have believed him until I had seen it. Just how it works with me.

I really believe that they have all of the feedback they need regarding the core of the game and what needs to be addressed there. If they keep on considering this feedback in their design decisions like they did in the example above, they may very well have a great game in the making.


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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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