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#102 Aug 21 2012 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
When I look at all the gameplay and the only complaints that I see on the boards is "OMG Jumping I hate Jumping," "Eww 2D Grass!?" and "That menu looks like Tera" I am filled with confidence in the quality of 2.0.


But seriously, stop complaining about jumping, unless you speak German or Japanese. They weren't mindlessly jumping, Yoshi-P was hyping the crowd about new features and showing them off.


And the menu looks flipping amazing. Did you see how it didn't take 3 seconds to access? That's all the matters. Drag and drop items and abilities to the hot bar, EASY customization, and a sleak look that goes with the soon-to-be magitek future.

About Sliding during weapon skills....

If you aren't a current player, this may looks like a negative to you, so I'll explain. Currently the HARDEST part of big fights is Animation lock. Fighting Ifrit, if you ws at the wrong time, you are locked in position and will die to an eruption.

Maybe they will make it look better (probably) but right now, I don't care.

Function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Form


I was never a big fan of jumping (or at least the idea of it), but the more I watched the vidoe and how easy it was for them to get around, the more I appreciate the idea. As for everything else you mention: couldn't agree more... the basic functionality is what I am excited about... a seemless and quick interface for nearly everything is a giant step in the right direction. One thing I saw that I am extra exctied about is the bar below the equipment screen. There appears to be a selectable 'gear set' drop down... if they have this built the way I hope they do, job switching might be a slightly smaller pain in the ****.

Edited, Aug 21st 2012 10:24am by Grandlethal
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#103 Aug 21 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Kachi wrote:

This is all very basic game psychology that any qualified motivational psychologist could point out, not my own radical interpretation of oddball game design theory.


Geez, it would be beneficial for said "game psychologists" to take some lessons in basic game design first...

In practice your idea is as sturdy as the titanic. When the best effort/reward ratio is set so high in the "difficulty" scale (as in "what's your gear like/what's your job?") the community (obviously looking for the best effort/reward ratio like they always do) will turn into sh*t immediately.

You make massive changes to the overall balance of the game's design and assume there will not be any unintended effects to the way the players behave (aside from the positive effects, since there obviously can be no negative effects). Great gaem psychoelogistz you got there.


Even with the proposed effort:reward ratio, risk and feasibility will always mitigate what the "best" reward is-- the only way in which the community will be affected is in changing standards. You'll still have the same people who want to kill IT++ for 250xp throwing a tantrum as you did in FFXI when they wipe on something. Whether 5k/hour or 15k/hour or 30k/hour is the acceptable benchmark will differ, but player attitudes and behaviors regarding acceptable reward will be largely unaffected. That's because these are predominantly intra-player factors rather than social ones, and anyone who could stomach FFXI would odds-on be unaffected.

Players already pursued optimal setups-- they just had less fun doing it. You already had arrow burns, manaburns, then Astral burns, then melee burns... the only difference is that players were pursuing good xp:hour on easy mobs that presented little challenge instead of difficult mobs. You had DRGs who were still playing DRG because they wanted to be DRG even though nobody wanted them, and you have people playing BRD simply to level quickly. You had some people that were prone to ragequit, and others who weren't.

Aside from which is perhaps the most important factor-- leveling in FFXI was work. Very few people wanted to do it, which was responsible for much of the hostility in the community (and the mass exodus from the game). Players don't like to feel like their time is being wasted, and most players who managed to enjoy FFXI would feel no pain from a sudden opportunity to increase their XP/hour.

The more realistic threat to the community would be the bandwagoning that would occur. Many of the would-be "WoWtards" (not my term, btw) would be on your server. But for once, you wouldn't have trouble finding a camp.


Rinsui wrote:
Kachi, stop using your second rate understanding of psychology to spice up your opinions.
The mechanisms you refer to may work like this in the vacuum of open space, but not in a
setting where A is connected to B, B to C, and C to A. Social psychology is not as easy as
pictured in an undergraduate textbook; neither are game design and community dynamics.


You're referring to systems design, which is yet another 101 concept in the field... Don't pretend to have any familiarity with my working knowledge. This is my PhD and life's work. If you disagree, then explain why in detail, rather than providing some vague and rudimentary dismissal of my "naive theories."

The role of challenge in game design is absolutely clear. There is extremely little theoretical uncertainty about its role in enjoyment, not in video games or any other leisure domain. It can be seen creating many of today's blockbuster games, and its absence in the should-be-blockbusters is evident. There are an awfully lot of mediocre and failed titles generated by game designers, and seldom are the factors mysterious, or even tangential to design... very often the sole problem is that the game is "too easy" or "too hard." What is difficult for designers is to execute the psychological model successfully... it requires great fluidity and opportunity for refinement. SE, among other companies, had an exemplary opportunity to make a significant improvement to the current trends, but failed to capitalize.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#104 Aug 21 2012 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
What is difficult for designers is to execute the psychological model successfully... it requires great fluidity and opportunity for refinement. SE, among other companies, had an exemplary opportunity to make a significant improvement to the current trends, but failed to capitalize.


About the only role I'm aware of for psychology in game design, with the exception of educational software, is one of creating an addiction such that players spend more money on the game, which is a relatively recent phenomenon. This is the stuff MMOs and "free" iPhone games are made of, with carefully paced entertainment that seems easy and rewarding at first, but then throws increasing challenges and roadblocks so that more time and money have to be spent to get that same rewarding feeling again. It basically treats humans as wealthy lab rats who will pay you to run your increasingly difficult mazes for that incredibly tasty cheese (except you're not even getting a real piece of cheese; it's all virtual! Insidious!).

It's little different than using PhDs to make cereal more addicting (when you think cereal, do you think salt? probably not, but there's enough in there to rival the sugar content and stimulate your need to have more...) or to genetically engineer tobacco to be more addicting or designing a casino to be more addicting (the lights! the sounds! the alcohol!). But it sure seems like using science for evil to me. It's too bad evil pays so well.
#105 Aug 21 2012 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Why choose FFXIV when you can choose WoW, Rift, EQ (Insert 80 other Korean and Chinese MMORPGs) and get the exact same things? Especially when XIV ultimately failed once before? What does XIV bring to the table that's different enough to say: "I want to play this MMO over (insert other same MMOs)!"


It's an MMO in a Final Fantasy setting. Very much so in fact considering Yoshida's attitude to make this a fanservice title (Battle Regimens are now Limit Breaks).

So in all honesty, why should SE give a flying crap about fickle MMO players when they have a demographic of their own, consisting of millions and millions of much more loyal players who are not going to switch to another MMO as soon as one releases? People that play this game because it is a Final Fantasy, not because it is an MMORPG?

Even if only ~3% of said demographic ends up playing this game in the long run, SE still has a profitable cashcow in their hands. And they are doing their hardest to cater to the demographic that matters the most, with Chocobos, Magitek, Limit Breaks, traditional Jobs and Summons.

Even WoW didn't steal it's players from other MMO's- they created a playerbase of their own out of people that hadn't played an MMO before.


I'm a little late to the party but I've always said that if FFXIV was just WoW mechanics with FF lore/story, artwork/graphics, it would probably be the most loved MMO of all time.

If a game like that existed I would probably still be playing it today.
#106 Aug 22 2012 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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Is there a mod or any way to fix my typo on the subject line? "Screnshots" is really bugging me.

Edited, Aug 21st 2012 11:06pm by UltKnightGrover
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#107 Aug 22 2012 at 4:16 AM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Is there a mod or any way to fix my typo on the subject line? "Screnshots" is really bugging me.

Edited, Aug 21st 2012 11:06pm by UltKnightGrover


Just edit the title line in the original post and it will update. I'm pretty sure that works.
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#108 Aug 22 2012 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:

I'm a little late to the party but I've always said that if FFXIV was just WoW mechanics with FF lore/story, artwork/graphics, it would probably be the most loved MMO of all time.

If a game like that existed I would probably still be playing it today.


Exactly.
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#109 Aug 22 2012 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Watching that video.... you know it still makes me want to cry.

Why couldnt it of been released in this state, was they afraid that the player base would be so low it couldnt sustain the game? Looking at that video I am going to admit, my return will happen. Content is never the key to me for the 1st month of a game its a quality game play, look and feel.

It does look like 2.0 is going to blow that away and with the current content level then its a winner. You know what, I am starting to get excited just like when I purchased XIV in the 1st place.

NOW please for the love of god do not break my faith again SE, I want a game that could keep me busy when I am not on XI. A game that I love playing, spending hours on it and having fun while still feel like I am accomplishing something. XI was the only MMO to do that and I have tried many!
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#110 Aug 22 2012 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
Is there a mod or any way to fix my typo on the subject line? "Screnshots" is really bugging me.

Edited, Aug 21st 2012 11:06pm by UltKnightGrover


Just edit the title line in the original post and it will update. I'm pretty sure that works.


Thanks, Tarkain! That fixed it.
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#111 Aug 22 2012 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What is difficult for designers is to execute the psychological model successfully... it requires great fluidity and opportunity for refinement. SE, among other companies, had an exemplary opportunity to make a significant improvement to the current trends, but failed to capitalize.


About the only role I'm aware of for psychology in game design, with the exception of educational software, is one of creating an addiction such that players spend more money on the game, which is a relatively recent phenomenon. This is the stuff MMOs and "free" iPhone games are made of, with carefully paced entertainment that seems easy and rewarding at first, but then throws increasing challenges and roadblocks so that more time and money have to be spent to get that same rewarding feeling again. It basically treats humans as wealthy lab rats who will pay you to run your increasingly difficult mazes for that incredibly tasty cheese (except you're not even getting a real piece of cheese; it's all virtual! Insidious!).

It's little different than using PhDs to make cereal more addicting (when you think cereal, do you think salt? probably not, but there's enough in there to rival the sugar content and stimulate your need to have more...) or to genetically engineer tobacco to be more addicting or designing a casino to be more addicting (the lights! the sounds! the alcohol!). But it sure seems like using science for evil to me. It's too bad evil pays so well.


Right, well that's certainly the dark side of game design psych, and there's an entire industry that focuses on that... it actually stems from the gambling industry, and likewise thrives upon mechanics that exploit those with addictive and compulsive predilections.

But that's certainly not the only role of psychology in game design. Motivational psychology has been studied for decades, not only to keep people "addicted" to products, but to encourage positive outcomes as well. Just as there are game psychologists trying to get people to sit mindlessly in front of a game for hours and click the buttons that make them money, there are also those who try to make meaningfully engaging experiences even more meaningful and engaging.

All game designers are attempting to capitalize on player psychology. Most of them just don't have a thorough understanding of how those player factors "work." Instead they rely on personal hunches and theories of game design... which are often redundant and/or immature in comparison to their psychological counterparts. While games are certainly different from other forms of media, the difference between books and television and games is often no greater than the difference between two games. The same basic principles underlie all forms of leisure, and psychologists have been studying what makes people enjoy leisure pastimes from food, to sports, to media since well before video games were a thing.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2012 11:37am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#112 Aug 22 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
cringed when someone took hate because the enmity system of FFXI was (and still is) broken and utterly useless.


Edited, Aug 18th 2012 4:50pm by Viertel



really late to the party i know, but....


wut.


FFXI's enmity system worked great if you understood it. miles above XIV but thats not saying much.


yes its mostly broken/useless now, basically due to XI's own brand of power creep.


also. umadbro.
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#113 Aug 22 2012 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
FFXI's enmity system worked great if you understood it. miles above XIV but thats not saying much.

yes its mostly broken/useless now, basically due to XI's own brand of power creep.


I liked FFXI's enmity system (coming from a Bard / Scholar / Puppetmaster) and so did my wife (Paladin / Dark Knight / Ranger). It was fun to manage because it had more going on than other games' equivalent system and, since I very rarely seemed to take hate and die from it, clearly many people were able to make use of it very effectively. It really was just a matter of understanding how it worked.
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#114 Aug 22 2012 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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exactly. If i pop counterstance(or yonin or voke w/e) i know that the mob across the room wailing on the whm is going to run back to me, because i know where i am on the "hate list" relative to my party. i call that understanding how to use a system that is working as intended.


cringing when someone takes hate? i call that not knowing how enmity works.




also, its only really "broken" now in scenarios where DDs are capping hate quickly through damage. Which admittedly, happens a lot. But there are plenty of situations (proccing in aby) where that isnt the case.


edited because it looked like a stoned person wrote it the first time.




Edited, Aug 22nd 2012 6:50pm by Llester
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#115 Aug 22 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
Llester wrote:
FFXI's enmity system worked great if you understood it. miles above XIV but thats not saying much.

yes its mostly broken/useless now, basically due to XI's own brand of power creep.


I liked FFXI's enmity system (coming from a Bard / Scholar / Puppetmaster) and so did my wife (Paladin / Dark Knight / Ranger). It was fun to manage because it had more going on than other games' equivalent system and, since I very rarely seemed to take hate and die from it, clearly many people were able to make use of it very effectively. It really was just a matter of understanding how it worked.


The only way people 'managed' their enmity was to turn away to stop attacking or to not cast spells. Maybe in exp groups where the mobs died within a matter of minutes you could take some credit for walking the line, but in any worthwhile NM fight, the battle lasted too long. Then it was just a matter of who was spamming more abilities or hitting the mob faster. The only way to ditch enmity at that point is to take a beating.
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#116 Aug 22 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
All game designers are attempting to capitalize on player psychology. Most of them just don't have a thorough understanding of how those player factors "work." Instead they rely on personal hunches and theories of game design... which are often redundant and/or immature in comparison to their psychological counterparts. While games are certainly different from other forms of media, the difference between books and television and games is often no greater than the difference between two games. The same basic principles underlie all forms of leisure, and psychologists have been studying what makes people enjoy leisure pastimes from food, to sports, to media since well before video games were a thing.


This is where it all gets a little bizarre to me. People who write amazing books, or create instant-classic films, or play hit music aren't generally psychologists by trade. I'm loathe to believe that creating a game simply can't be successful without a psychologist at the helm, especially with the diverse types of games out there. Most people aren't fans of horror games, but those that are love a good thriller like Silent Hill (the babies... the babies!).

And that's really why I have to dismiss this notion that you should make your game around what's pleasing to most people. People like new experiences, not all people like the same experiences, and basing your whole game on what's known to be a safe bet among the masses is antithetical to creativity. It's what turned Dragon Age from an decent game in DA: Origin, to numbingly dull in DA2... the sequel was so sensitive to pleasing the most people possible that it ended up completely uninspired and milquetoast.

Contrast that with FF7 which took lots of risks: Eco-terrorism, class warfare, plutocracy, prostitution, cross-dressing, mass murder, experimentation on humans, and the end-of-the-world to name a few. And it pulled off and is forever beloved for it. If you had to run this through a psychologist who wanted to ensure it was completely pleasing first, there's no way it would have turned out so well. Storytelling has to take risks, and that means it won't work out so well every time. But if you never push boundaries, you'll never have a hit.
#117 Aug 23 2012 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Blinded by his perceived professionalism, Kachi tends to oversee that most psychological theories are post hoc explanations of empirical facts. Experiments performed in a controlled (laboratory, university student sample) setting to pinpoint the influence of a single factor on a certain range of phenomena tend to lack ecological validity, because they ignore the complexity of multidetermination (IRL, and in computer games, there's never a single factor that makes something "good" or "bad". That notion alone is so primitively Skinner that it makes me wonder what decade our little lecturer studied in). On the other hand, ecologically valid (quasi-)experiments in a RL setting generally make it impossible to determinate the ultimate cause of a phenomenon, because, well, reality is too complex.

I do not claim psychology, per se, and as a science, is flawed. I just claim that when you try to predict (not: post-hoc explain) customer behavior or human behavior in general, you are in for a big surprise. And a lot of backpaddling. I have been (and still am) working long enough in the field to know what I'm talking about. Here, my cards are on the table. Professional enthusiasm and pride are fine, but overclaiming and perpetual lecturing of an audience that just wants to have their own opinion (which rarely is of significantly lesser accuracy than careless application of our knowledge), hurts the reputation of our science more than it benefits it.

Quote:
there are also those who try to make meaningfully engaging experiences even more meaningful and engaging.

Ha! Now just tell me they do that out of humanism, and I'll start ******** some bricks. Never left your campus to experience the world out there?

Quote:
All game designers are attempting to capitalize on player psychology. Most of them just don't have a thorough understanding of how those player factors "work." Instead they rely on personal hunches and theories of game design... which are often redundant and/or immature in comparison to their psychological counterparts.

I think the "hunches" of most dirty basement-dwelling game designer are by far more accurate than the professional opinions of ivory-tower-holier-than-thou theorists who have never even managed to grasp the concept that kicking your best firend's balls in a game is not necessarily a reflection of suppressed aggression, but just a ******* game. Game theory is cool. Allocation/equity theory is brilliant. Social comparison and the urge to reduce cognitive dissonance are a fact. But usually it's the greasy bloke with the hunches that gets the girl. Not the over-calculating nerd. Claiming that you know more about game design than game designers who have worked decades in their field... that's so ridiculously removed from reality. Use your knowledge to understand, and complement. Not to smartass.

TL/DR: Kachi evidently knows a bit about psychology. Little of what he says is outright wrong. His lecturing is starting to **** me off.
#118 Aug 23 2012 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I was never a big fan of jumping (or at least the idea of it), but the more I watched the vidoe and how easy it was for them to get around, the more I appreciate the idea. As for everything else you mention: couldn't agree more... the basic functionality is what I am excited about... a seemless and quick interface for nearly everything is a giant step in the right direction. One thing I saw that I am extra exctied about is the bar below the equipment screen. There appears to be a selectable 'gear set' drop down... if they have this built the way I hope they do, job switching might be a slightly smaller pain in the ****.



This is all sh*t that has been available in other MMOs and asked for by the players not happy with FFXIVs current system. We were then insulted and flamed for wanting a "wow clone". The thing is, once you experience how movements and UIs should be, you wonder why you ever had anything against it. I think for the most part it was people's unfounded hatred of other mmos they never played for more than a day or two.


Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 5:58am by Transmigration
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#119 Aug 23 2012 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

The only way people 'managed' their enmity was to turn away to stop attacking or to not cast spells. Maybe in exp groups where the mobs died within a matter of minutes you could take some credit for walking the line, but in any worthwhile NM fight, the battle lasted too long. Then it was just a matter of who was spamming more abilities or hitting the mob faster. The only way to ditch enmity at that point is to take a beating.


Did you not play FFXI for very long either?


High Jump
Chameleon
Stealth Shot
Ventriloquy
Hide
Trick Attack
Seigan + Third Eye
Shadows
Cover

All of these things are hate management tools to help "walk the line" and any player worth a **** knew how to walk it or didn't last very long in an endgame LS because they were dead most of the time.
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#120 Aug 23 2012 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The only way people 'managed' their enmity was to turn away to stop attacking or to not cast spells. Maybe in exp groups where the mobs died within a matter of minutes you could take some credit for walking the line, but in any worthwhile NM fight, the battle lasted too long. Then it was just a matter of who was spamming more abilities or hitting the mob faster. The only way to ditch enmity at that point is to take a beating.


Did you not play FFXI for very long either?


High Jump
Chameleon
Stealth Shot
Ventriloquy
Hide
Trick Attack
Seigan + Third Eye
Shadows
Cover

All of these things are hate management tools to help "walk the line" and any player worth a **** knew how to walk it or didn't last very long in an endgame LS because they were dead most of the time.


lol...pnwd. Nasty...sometimes its best to just leave something alone if you are unsure.

Enmity played a huge part in FFXI back in the day. No idea if its the same now...but in my static group, we knew our roles, and yes...it took some skill to manage hate. You introduce a new cog into he party and you were playing with fire. How people managed hate was a sure fire way to know if they knew what the **** they were doing. This would be from where they positioned themselves, what skills they used and how often, and even what foods they decided to take during a grind fest.


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#121 Aug 23 2012 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:


Quote:
I was never a big fan of jumping (or at least the idea of it), but the more I watched the vidoe and how easy it was for them to get around, the more I appreciate the idea. As for everything else you mention: couldn't agree more... the basic functionality is what I am excited about... a seemless and quick interface for nearly everything is a giant step in the right direction. One thing I saw that I am extra exctied about is the bar below the equipment screen. There appears to be a selectable 'gear set' drop down... if they have this built the way I hope they do, job switching might be a slightly smaller pain in the ****.



This is all sh*t that has been available in other MMOs and asked for by the players not happy with FFXIVs current system. We were then insulted and flamed for wanting a "wow clone". The thing is, once you experience how movements and UIs should be, you wonder why you ever had anything against it. I think for the most part it was people's unfounded hatred of other mmos they never played for more than a day or two.


Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 5:58am by Transmigration


I'll be the first to admit that this was exactly my case... I tried playing a bunch of other MMOs during and after playing FFXI and most of the jumping seemed out of place (and watching people do it everywhere they went just looked pretty abnormal to me). It wasn't the only reason I didn't like the other MMOs, but it played a part. While I loved FFXI, my constant beef about it was the lack of UI configuration (which it sounds like they might be putting in finally) and the stupidness of not being able to get up a small step that they put in the way just to make you have to take a long way around... apparently no one had learned how oo climb or jump at any point (and the pillar that fell in Sky to make you take the long way to Byakko was the worst one... I am sure an LS of 18+ could have just pushed that out of the way one day, no?). I am sure there will be new obstables, but I do appreciate the added realism they decided to add.

Maybe they should put the jump option on a cooldown too? :P
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#122 Aug 23 2012 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This is where it all gets a little bizarre to me. People who write amazing books, or create instant-classic films, or play hit music aren't generally psychologists by trade. I'm loathe to believe that creating a game simply can't be successful without a psychologist at the helm, especially with the diverse types of games out there. Most people aren't fans of horror games, but those that are love a good thriller like Silent Hill (the babies... the babies!).

And that's really why I have to dismiss this notion that you should make your game around what's pleasing to most people. People like new experiences, not all people like the same experiences, and basing your whole game on what's known to be a safe bet among the masses is antithetical to creativity. It's what turned Dragon Age from an decent game in DA: Origin, to numbingly dull in DA2... the sequel was so sensitive to pleasing the most people possible that it ended up completely uninspired and milquetoast.

Contrast that with FF7 which took lots of risks: Eco-terrorism, class warfare, plutocracy, prostitution, cross-dressing, mass murder, experimentation on humans, and the end-of-the-world to name a few. And it pulled off and is forever beloved for it. If you had to run this through a psychologist who wanted to ensure it was completely pleasing first, there's no way it would have turned out so well. Storytelling has to take risks, and that means it won't work out so well every time. But if you never push boundaries, you'll never have a hit.


Obviously you don't have to be a psychologist to create an excellent work of art. However, many of the principles of say, good narrative, are based on psychological principles. A good writer can develop an intuitive sense of how these principles work without having a formal understanding of them. Game psychology is not necessarily about mass appeal at all. It is often about creating the most appealing product for a niche audience. People, obviously, are different. They identify with different sociological constructs. Even in terms of individual development (e.g., age, intelligence, experience with the media), some audiences will prefer a more canned experience, while others will prefer something with exceptional novelty. These are all things a good psychological analysis of a game must include.

So risks are neither inherently good or bad in the context you're describing them, but they often fail or succeed predictably according to the traits of the audience. If there was one right formula, then game design would be easy. An attempt at that "one right formula" is often applied to the type of game psychology you're thinking of.

@Rinsui; so your issue with me of the personal nature. Tell me something I didn't already know. But did you honestly think it would matter to me if my posting trends bothered you? Did you overlook the likelihood that the feeling was mutual, and that you are usually the one to instigate the interpersonal conflict between us?

It's easy to laugh me off as oversimplifying an incredibly complex system of ideas, but you can't expect me to all at once convey my entire understanding of such a broad subject. The bottom line is that neither of us have any meaningful familiarity with the other's work, so neither of us are able to comparatively evaluate one another's claims without laying them out on the table. There is no resolution to this fundamental disagreement until you stop mocking my ideas and challenging me on the grounds of authority, and actually bring a substantive counterpoint to the debate. Since I've never seen you do that, you've been written off long ago as someone with a chip on his shoulder and no dip to put it in. So if my lectures disagree with you, here's a tip: don't read them. But don't presume to put me in my place without either of us having established where the other's place should be. Maybe you have some valuable insights that could expand my knowledge of the field? We'll never know if you don't stop trolling me and share some actual perspective.

Also, post-hoc explanations are sufficiently extendable to product distribution like games (but you're incorrect if you're saying that psychological sciences don't deal in prediction... business psychology does this all the time). You never have to make a game for just one person or fixed group of people and predict if they will like it. In the end, counseling is infinitely more complex than leisure systems design for this very reason.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 8:57am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#123 Aug 23 2012 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Grandlethal wrote:


I tried playing a bunch of other MMOs during and after playing FFXI and most of the jumping seemed out of place (and watching people do it everywhere they went just looked pretty abnormal to me).


To me, being FORCED to the ground is what feels abnormal. It makes it painfully obvious that you are playing on a 2-Dimensional plane instead of 3. It makes the game feel to me like Gauntlet with a graphical upgrade.

Jumping and climbing provide some realism, IMO, despite how some would use it to fill the boredom of running somewhere.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 2:06pm by Louiscool

Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 2:07pm by Louiscool
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#124 Aug 23 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not even sure why jumping is a topic.

Its jumping. You can jump. Sure...yea...I know...its new to FF...oh dear. Still...its jumping.

Lets worry more about quests, UI, level progression, combat, endgame, and the economy.
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#125 Aug 23 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:
Its jumping. You can jump. Sure...yea...I know...its new to FF...oh dear. Still...its jumping.
But it takes away from the REALISM of my half-naked catgirl making fire appear out of nowhere! :( :( :(
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#126 Aug 23 2012 at 1:05 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The only way people 'managed' their enmity was to turn away to stop attacking or to not cast spells. Maybe in exp groups where the mobs died within a matter of minutes you could take some credit for walking the line, but in any worthwhile NM fight, the battle lasted too long. Then it was just a matter of who was spamming more abilities or hitting the mob faster. The only way to ditch enmity at that point is to take a beating.


Did you not play FFXI for very long either?


High Jump
Chameleon
Stealth Shot
Ventriloquy
Hide
Trick Attack
Seigan + Third Eye
Shadows
Cover

All of these things are hate management tools to help "walk the line" and any player worth a **** knew how to walk it or didn't last very long in an endgame LS because they were dead most of the time.


High Jump - does nothing to enmity.
Chameleon - wut?
Stealth Shot - only applies to the attack you use it before and only decreases enmity for that attack. Find a RNG who merits this and slap them.
Ventriloquy - another merited skill usually taken by PUP who duo with their automaton a lot.
Hide - only works on mobs that are sight aggressive and even then, only works for the thief.
Trick Attack - a nice tool, but not much use after everyone reaches the cap and requires positioning that isn't always an option.
Seigan and 3rd Eye - only effective for SAM.
Utsusemi - doesn't do much for enmity and is more a tool for mitigation.
Cover - lol?

With few exceptions, these tools do very little. Like I've said before, most anything worthwhile is being done with PD/Embrava zerg so people pretty much ignore enmity.

Simool wrote:
lol...pnwd. Nasty...sometimes its best to just leave something alone if you are unsure.

Enmity played a huge part in FFXI back in the day. No idea if its the same now...but in my static group, we knew our roles, and yes...it took some skill to manage hate. You introduce a new cog into he party and you were playing with fire. How people managed hate was a sure fire way to know if they knew what the **** they were doing. This would be from where they positioned themselves, what skills they used and how often, and even what foods they decided to take during a grind fest.

Enmity hasn't played a huge part in XI since people realized it was broken and formed groups based on that fact. Notice the bolded part of Louis' statement. Your static xp group does not qualify as endgame content, no offense.



Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 3:19pm by FilthMcNasty
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#127 Aug 23 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Jumping and climbing Hopping six feet into the air provides some realism, IMO, despite how some nearly everybody would use it to fill the boredom of running somewhere. while running, while standing, while fighting; constantly.


There's no doubt that having more options to move around is helpful and can also increase the player's interaction with terrain. I don't think there's really that much of an argument there. The problems some have with jumping is how, frankly, stupid it looks to see a bunch of armour-clad heroes bouncing and skipping high into the air as though their feet were strapped to invisible pogo sticks. Everything else looks to have a weight, a gravity but, suddenly, things just blast off the ground in a weightless quick succession.

I think it's really that simple: this kind of jumping looks foolish if used constantly and without reason, and people (for some unknown cause) almost all develop an insatiable twitch whereby they must use it constantly and without reason. Smiley: lol
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#128 Aug 23 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Jumping and climbing Hopping six feet into the air provides some realism, IMO, despite how some nearly everybody would use it to fill the boredom of running somewhere. while running, while standing, while fighting; constantly.


There's no doubt that having more options to move around is helpful and can also increase the player's interaction with terrain. I don't think there's really that much of an argument there. The problems some have with jumping is how, frankly, stupid it looks to see a bunch of armour-clad heroes bouncing and skipping high into the air as though their feet were strapped to invisible pogo sticks. Everything else looks to have a weight, a gravity but, suddenly, things just blast off the ground in a weightless quick succession.

I think it's really that simple: this kind of jumping looks foolish if used constantly and without reason, and people (for some unknown cause) almost all develop an insatiable twitch whereby they must use it constantly and without reason. Smiley: lol


Coincidentally, with all of the psychology that's going on in here that "insatiable twitch" I think is a telling player mechanic.

I know personally I hit the spacebar mindlessly when waiting around for something, again it's not a deal breaker when I can't jump but it solves a "twitch" that a lot of people do have and it, of course, mechanically familiarizes the game with other MMOs.

I think it's kind of funny, but psychologically jumping might be more important than many think. Not to get too crazy, but what does it represent? Dominance over the environment, freedom and solving that "twitch."

----
I would talk about FFXI some more but I could write pages and pages about what that game did right and what it obviously did wrong.

What I will briefly say is that there can never be another game like FFXI; just as there can never be another WoW.

It's amazing how much progress Yoshi and his team has done over the year and a half he has been at the helm. And I hope, whatever mechanics they use, that those mechanics work and in the end make people and especially fans happy.
#129 Aug 23 2012 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Didn't even need to go as far as the psychology of it. If jumping allows you to navigate terrain that otherwise takes you out of your way to get around, it's utility trumps all.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#130 Aug 24 2012 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Didn't even need to go as far as the psychology of it. If jumping allows you to navigate terrain that otherwise takes you out of your way to get around, it's utility trumps all.


If SE wants you to walk over a hill or a log or some other obstacle, they will let you, and if they don't want you to then they won't let you. It's not that the jumping feature makes you cross over terrain they didn't want you to cross over before.

It's just like Kanekitty says. Jumping while running, standing and fighting, jumping like we're on some pogo stick. Basically just like those moogle gloves: gloves on..gloves off, gloves on... gloves off, glove on.... gloves off... just because it makes this special sound...

Oh well people cried hard enough for it. Congrats.


#131 Aug 24 2012 at 2:32 AM Rating: Default
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Woofdram wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Didn't even need to go as far as the psychology of it. If jumping allows you to navigate terrain that otherwise takes you out of your way to get around, it's utility trumps all.


If SE wants you to walk over a hill or a log or some other obstacle, they will let you, and if they don't want you to then they won't let you.


Same logic:

If your players want to let you subject them to poor map design or pathing then they will let you charge them for it, and if they don't want to then they won't.

No degree in psychology necessary. I'm pretty sure we already know how this turns out Smiley: nod




Edited, Aug 24th 2012 4:35am by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#132 Aug 24 2012 at 6:58 AM Rating: Default
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I think SE should make it so all mobs can jump too... and NPC's. Just see the world standing around and bouncing everywhere. I would honestly like for some game designer to take jumping tto the next level if it is a 'must have' now... make it so that STR and armor weight play into how high/far you can jump... as well as passive/active mode. Something to make it so the physics behind it don't look so pathetic.

That being said, I think one of my goals will be to gather as many people as I can into one area and have everyone start jumping... make it look like an FFXIV mosh pit.
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#133 Aug 24 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Ok Filth, so you proved my point for me, thanks. Let me tell you how these are all tools.

FilthMcNasty wrote:


High Jump - does nothing to enmity.


Upon usage, hit or miss the user will lose 50% of his/her enmity accumulated during the course of battle. If DRG is used as a subjob, the user's enmity will be reduced by 30%.

wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/High_Jump

Shall we continue? I didn't even mention Super Jump...

And before you say "only useful to Drg," I regularly played Sam/Drg to get +5% haste from the earring.

Quote:

Chameleon - wut?


Sorry, I meant Camoflague.

Rangers with this ability in effect will gain -25 enmity for ranged attacks. Furthermore, there will be a chance that the ability remains in effect even after a ranged attack.

Quote:

Stealth Shot - only applies to the attack you use it before and only decreases enmity for that attack. Find a RNG who merits this and slap them.

1 point to unlock, counts as a hate tool.

Quote:

Ventriloquy - another merited skill usually taken by PUP who duo with their automaton a lot.

What's wrong with it being a Merited skill, since we are talking specifically about endgame, and not 1-75? Also, this is not for duoing, this sheds hate from yourself or your puppet and is a very useful and versitile tool, particularly now that Pup can resummon their Automaton immediately.

Quote:

Hide - only works on mobs that are sight aggressive and even then, only works for the thief.

Wait, we aren't counting emnity control abilities that are job-specific? That's silly buddy.

What about Accomplice?

"Steals half of the target party member's enmity and redirects it to the thief."

Quote:

Trick Attack - a nice tool, but not much use after everyone reaches the cap and requires positioning that isn't always an option.


Not much is needed for this to work buddy, go behind tank, use trick attack. If that's too much trouble, you're in the wrong Endgame LS.

Quote:

Seigan and 3rd Eye - only effective for SAM.


Yeah that, or /SAM which is the preferred subjob for ANY 2-Hander job. Drg, War, Drk....

Quote:

Utsusemi - doesn't do much for enmity and is more a tool for mitigation.


Actually it does. Losing a shadow reduces your enmity.

"Due to an update, Utsusemi makes the NIN or /NIN lose a small amount of hate with each shadow taken."

Quote:

Cover - lol?


How? You no longer have to stand and take a beating and:

"As of the July 11, 2011 update, Cover now raises enmity towards the Paladin and lowers enmity towards the party member under attack."

LOL, Flith, what games DO you play?


Edited, Aug 24th 2012 10:17am by Louiscool
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#134 Aug 24 2012 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Yet, given all the tools available in FFXI to try to lower hate, its still dirt easy to just cap it again as a damage dealer. Jumping to the top of the hate list isn't hard and the tools you mentioned are limited once things get going.

Worse, as the trend of harder NMs last I checked is just AoE spam.

So the problem isn't that the hate tools don't exist, its that they can easily become irrelevant concerning the ease of which hate is capped, as the cap hasn't scaled up since 75, but the damage has.

FFXIV's hate system seems to scale to relative performance, which means when you lose it completely due to a hate reset, it's much more difficult to get back - as it seems as if voke and flash are a set value. That's really all that the problem lies there. If Voke and Flash gave a relative value for hate spiking, tanking would probably be too easy to manage.

People who complain "Take Dies, party wipes." issues in FFXIV arn't using a varied set up. Warrior is deisgned to work with Paladin when it comes to hate maintenance, and if one dies, the other can easily take up the main tanking role while the dead is revived and attempts to regain hate.

So I don't see much of a problem with FFXIV's hate system. It actually keeps track of the hate order beyond who's on top as well, which makes fights more interesting when certain abilities target who's second on the hate list instead of who's first.
#135 Aug 24 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Yet, given all the tools available in FFXI to try to lower hate, its still dirt easy to just cap it again as a damage dealer. Jumping to the top of the hate list isn't hard and the tools you mentioned are limited once things get going.

Worse, as the trend of harder NMs last I checked is just AoE spam.

So the problem isn't that the hate tools don't exist, its that they can easily become irrelevant concerning the ease of which hate is capped, as the cap hasn't scaled up since 75, but the damage has.

FFXIV's hate system seems to scale to relative performance, which means when you lose it completely due to a hate reset, it's much more difficult to get back - as it seems as if voke and flash are a set value. That's really all that the problem lies there. If Voke and Flash gave a relative value for hate spiking, tanking would probably be too easy to manage.

People who complain "Take Dies, party wipes." issues in FFXIV arn't using a varied set up. Warrior is deisgned to work with Paladin when it comes to hate maintenance, and if one dies, the other can easily take up the main tanking role while the dead is revived and attempts to regain hate.

So I don't see much of a problem with FFXIV's hate system. It actually keeps track of the hate order beyond who's on top as well, which makes fights more interesting when certain abilities target who's second on the hate list instead of who's first.


I agree with much of this, though I find hate management to be quite easy as a DD in XIV. When someone grabs hate that was not caused by a hate reset move, they weren't looking at their screen. I will rarely take hate as BLM with only using Freeze, Quelling Strike, and Chameleon.
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#136 Aug 24 2012 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/High_Jump

Shall we continue? I didn't even mention Super Jump...

And before you say "only useful to Drg," I regularly played Sam/Drg to get +5% haste from the earring.

I should have been clear about it and in reading my previous post I see how it comes across, but DRG don't use HJ as a tool to ditch enmity. It's used mostly as a tool for TP gain. If you are waiting until you amass some large amount of enmity to dump with it, you're doing it wrong.

Louiscool wrote:
Camouflage... Rangers with this ability in effect will gain -25 enmity for ranged attacks. Furthermore, there will be a chance that the ability remains in effect even after a ranged attack.

Stealth Shot: 1 point to unlock, counts as a hate tool.

This ability doesn't work on the two most important abilities you would actually use it for, WS and barrage. It only remains active when you're directly behind the mob and is pretty much useless on anything kited.

As for stealth shot, a point in this will lower enmity for the next shot by 10 once every 5 minutes. Because your enmity will be capped well before that point, most RNG use their points in Snapshot and either Recycle or Flashy Shot. I never said that this wasn't a hate tool, just that it's pretty much useless and no one merits it.

Louiscool wrote:
Ventriloquy: What's wrong with it being a Merited skill, since we are talking specifically about endgame, and not 1-75? Also, this is not for duoing, this sheds hate from yourself or your puppet and is a very useful and versitile tool, particularly now that Pup can resummon their Automaton immediately.

As with any merited skill, using a point or more in this takes a point or more away from something else useful. This skill doesn't shed enmity, it swaps enmity. When you use it your enmity is replaced by the amount your tomato has and vice versa. You could use it to keep enmity on your tomato if you were duoing with it or you could use it to keep your tomato alive which, as you said, isn't necessary anymore with DEA.

Seigan and 3rd Eye are used to block incoming damage. They are not hate tools.

The amount of enmity shed when you lose a shadow is easily off set by the damage you are pumping out if you're a heavy DD. This change was implemented to make it more difficult for NIN to tank than just requiring that you be able to count to 4 and also to keep any xxx/NIN from becoming a tank as well.

Anyway, my point was never that people don't have tools for trying to control enmity. My point was that the way the game currently works, they are ineffective at best.





Edited, Aug 24th 2012 4:02pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#137 Aug 24 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Coincidentally, with all of the psychology that's going on in here that "insatiable twitch" I think is a telling player mechanic.

I know personally I hit the spacebar mindlessly when waiting around for something, again it's not a deal breaker when I can't jump but it solves a "twitch" that a lot of people do have and it, of course, mechanically familiarizes the game with other MMOs.

I think it's kind of funny, but psychologically jumping might be more important than many think. Not to get too crazy, but what does it represent? Dominance over the environment, freedom and solving that "twitch."


As bland as it seems for a psychological explanation, what you're describing is merely boredom (possibly tinged with anxiety), which occurs when there is an insufficient challenge. You want something to do that will preoccupy your mind, and you don't have one, so you start fiddling with the controls instead.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#138 Aug 24 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
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Seems like they changed the chocobo theme. I can't really make out the zone's background music, but it sounds new to me too.

I totally agree with the sympathies of

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11352-Please-get-Naoshi-Mizuta-to-re-do-this-disastrous-soundtrack
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40520-The-direction-of-FFXIV-s-music.

so this is an auspicious sign for me. New music really would make it feel like a brand new game.

EDIT: Nevermind, I realised it's already known that there'll be a new soundtrack.

Edited, Aug 24th 2012 8:19pm by Dizmo

Edited, Aug 24th 2012 8:19pm by Dizmo
#139 Aug 24 2012 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

I should have been clear about it and in reading my previous post I see how it comes across, but DRG don't use HJ as a tool to ditch enmity. It's used mostly as a tool for TP gain. If you are waiting until you amass some large amount of enmity to dump with it, you're doing it wrong.



Your original point was that there is no way to manage hate or "ride the hate line" in FFXI. My response was "this wealth of tools."

My argument is that outside of some exp parties and Aby/colibri merit parties, hate management is a tactic, with a tank and attempts to control hate. You made a complete blanket statement and I just wanted to correct you on that.

Edited, Aug 24th 2012 10:45pm by Louiscool
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#140 Aug 24 2012 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Your original point was that there is no way to manage hate or "ride the hate line" in FFXI. My response was "this wealth of tools."

My argument is that outside of some exp parties and Aby/colibri merit parties, hate management is a tactic, with a tank and attempts to control hate. You made a complete blanket statement and I just wanted to correct you on that.

My original point was that enmity is broken and that managing hate isn't done by using this 'wealth of tools' you refer to.

It's not that people can't, but that they don't. People are not playing the game like they used to years ago. They also don't approach content in the same ways. Almost everyone rolls a zerg tactic where you account for the fact that people will ping-pong hate around. Even the best tanks are expected to lose aggro. PD covers enough mitigation so people aren't being one-shot all over the place so no one really cares these days.

The same old 'kill it before it has time to do lots of damage to you' mindset still rules.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#141 Aug 25 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
Seems like they changed the chocobo theme. I can't really make out the zone's background music, but it sounds new to me too.

I totally agree with the sympathies of

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11352-Please-get-Naoshi-Mizuta-to-re-do-this-disastrous-soundtrack
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40520-The-direction-of-FFXIV-s-music.

so this is an auspicious sign for me. New music really would make it feel like a brand new game.

EDIT: Nevermind, I realised it's already known that there'll be a new soundtrack.

Edited, Aug 24th 2012 8:19pm by Dizmo

Edited, Aug 24th 2012 8:19pm by Dizmo



They didn't change the chocobo theme. There are two themes.

The original chocobo theme in the .DATs is used if you rent a chocobo.
The chocobo theme that plays is the same one that currently plays in 1.0 when you have your own chocobo.

Edited, Aug 25th 2012 2:35pm by UltKnightGrover
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#142 Aug 25 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. :( I'm not playing at the moment so I didn't realise.
#143 Aug 28 2012 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
When I look at all the gameplay and the only complaints that I see on the boards is "OMG Jumping I hate Jumping," "Eww 2D Grass!?" and "That menu looks like Tera" I am filled with confidence in the quality of 2.0.
...
Function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Form


I... I just... I can't believe that XIV looks like a modern mmo. It truly looks like a fluid, fun, and engaging place to be. Gosh, maybe I didn't waste that 80 bucks two years ago after all.

And people really need to get over jumping. It's not the end of the world.
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