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#52 Nov 09 2012 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I disagreed violently with your original combat system hate, and still do. You wanted to play FFXIV: Super Button Masher Edition. Every. other. person. wanted auto attack. Guess what? You still get to play button masher as Archer!

Not everyone wanted auto-attack and it's pretty ignorant for you to assume that.

Go ahead and create a poll and we'll see how that 'everyone else' statement hold up.

I'm sure you'd find that people want something more than auto-attack with only a few worthwhile abilities. XIV doesn't have enough useful abilities, abilities that are reactive or that require certain conditions to be met before use. I get the whole 'streamlined and simplified' argument and I'm with it, but the system as it stands needs more diversity.


The best part is, I don't need to create a poll, it's already been done:

Letter from the Producer, V (03/03/2011)

The second highest "What's wrong with the combat system" answer was "Spamming Actions." So they reduced the number of useless actions, and added auto attack. I know you stopped playing before they fully fleshed out the battle system and made it a bit more robust, but I don't have the same issues with it. I like the simplicity, honestly.

More diverse abilities would be great, not arguing that, but they streamlined alot of the crossover. For example, previously there was Cure, Cure 2, Cure whatever, and then Sacrifice, Sacrifice 2, etc. There were too many cures, and now it's just Cure, Cura, Curaga. Simple, and completely perfect for Whm. They did this with a lot of classes that just had many bland abilities that did roughly the same thing.

I think we're agreeing without realizing it.

As far as reactive abilities, the combo system is great, but it's only fully realized at level 50 when you have multiple combos to use. I believe the updated system in 2.0 will do wonders for it, as currently you have these great comboes on LONG cooldowns (like 2 minutes for some abilities).

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 9:39am by Louiscool
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#53 Nov 09 2012 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really like the fact that a class/job is forced to use one type of weapon either. I like seeing diversity overall and I like freedom to choose what I think is the coolest and works best for a certain situation. A system where I become a class/job just because I equip a specifik weapon type is just something I see no point in having. Like, what are the advantages?

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono
#54 Nov 09 2012 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
I don't really like the fact that a class/job is forced to use one type of weapon either. I like seeing diversity overall and I like freedom to choose what I think is the coolest and works best for a certain situation. A system where I become a class/job just because I equip a specifik weapon type is just something I see no point in having. Like, what are the advantages?

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono


Job Identity and uniqueness. We everyone could use a Greataxe, everyone would so they could use Steel Cyclone. You are basically saying you want what we originally had, everyone could wear any gear (not weapons) and everyone looked the same and wore gear way above their level to look cool.

Why would you want to use whatever weapon you want? IN WHAT MMO can you?
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#55 Nov 09 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:


More diverse abilities would be great, not arguing that, but they streamlined alot of the crossover. For example, previously there was Cure, Cure 2, Cure whatever, and then Sacrifice, Sacrifice 2, etc. There were too many cures, and now it's just Cure, Cura, Curaga. Simple, and completely perfect for Whm. They did this with a lot of classes that just had many bland abilities that did roughly the same thing.



yeah sorry, as someone who often plays healers there is a huge difference between HoT and cure on demand. And, even if you aren't one of them, a lot of people (including myself) like being able to control mana use better by being able to use different levels of cure depending on the situation. 3 cures, none of them HoT is BORING. I mean, sorry but a lot of us have a slightly higher IQ than a lab rat so spamming the same 3 spells is MUCH WORSE than button smashing. (And anyone who was half decent at the old system wasn't button smashing either)

I don't think that the players poll was the players saying "GET RID OF ALL INTERESTING-NESS IN THE COMBAT SYSTEM" - people asked for auto-attack, not for the elimination of the majority of spells in the game. I could have handled autoattack - but losing 2/3 of my spells and abilities? Not so much.

I'd also like you to tell folks that THM losing pretty much all enfeebles, it's unique cure spell, all of its status drains and most of its buffs wasn't a huge blow. Sorry, but it was. It's boring casting a couple versions the same nuke over and over and doing little else. I used to have fun doing status drains and then initiation on to DD. It wasn't particularly effective, but it was NEAT. What they should have done is make spells work better, not eliminate them entirely. I don't see how this is a case of "getting rid of bland abilities that do roughly the same thing."

I mean we got a buff on a minute or two cooldown that lasts 10 seconds in return for losing all that? God. It's pathetic. Why would you even put that on your bar?

Look, you don't have to agree with me, but my criticisms are valid. And even if the majority of EXISTING XIV players like the combat changes I doubt that new players will find it very rewarding to grind endlessly for a bland skill once every 5 levels or so.



Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:34am by Olorinus
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#56 Nov 09 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
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Oli, slow down... There's also Regen, Stoneskin, Protect.

Regen = HoT. Add that to the various whm abilities that allow you to aoe a spell, or to cast one without a casting time or recast, etc, Whm is actually much more fun now than it was. I thought I would hate it, leveled it out of necessity in my group and love it more than a few of my other jobs.

Quote:
I mean we got a buff on a minute or two cooldown that lasts 10 seconds in return for losing all that? God. It's pathetic. Why would you even put that on your bar?


Which ability are you talking about? I play Blm and Whm and use every. single. ability.

Resonance increases casting range and also makes aoe's much larger.
Dark Seal - Magic Acc buff
Excruciate - Magic Crit buff
Parsimony and (forget the name) halves mp cost and restores mp based on dmg dealt.

The only one I can think that lasts 10 seconds or so gives mp back based on dmg taken, and gives a huge buff to dmg reduction and spell interuption. In fact, this spell is essential to AOE killing (or PLing) and to survive The final Boss's meteor in hard mode.

They eliminated the debuffs and DoTs of Thm and gave it to Arcanist. Makes sense to me.

Basically, you quit playing at the first change and didn't stick around for the rest, and are judging based on that. It's cool that you have such a strong opinion, but it's really not necessary to make IQ insults as if ANYTHING related to this game requires IQ. (If you don't believe me, you should really look up what an IQ is. **** it, I'll tell you. It's knowledge based on age, compared to knowledge you should have compared to others your age. Like math, or verbal. They don't test for macro ability or hate management.)

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 4:13pm by Louiscool
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#57 Nov 09 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, if I remember correctly to get the limit breaker first the party has to do a chain of skills, then the party has to choose what limit break to activated since only one can be done at a time. So according to which class does the activation, that is the one that shows, like the in video it is the BLM that activates the limit break to get Meteor. Then you have to do the chain again.
#58 Nov 09 2012 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
I don't really like the fact that a class/job is forced to use one type of weapon either. I like seeing diversity overall and I like freedom to choose what I think is the coolest and works best for a certain situation. A system where I become a class/job just because I equip a specifik weapon type is just something I see no point in having. Like, what are the advantages?

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono


Job Identity and uniqueness. We everyone could use a Greataxe, everyone would so they could use Steel Cyclone. You are basically saying you want what we originally had, everyone could wear any gear (not weapons) and everyone looked the same and wore gear way above their level to look cool.

Why would you want to use whatever weapon you want? IN WHAT MMO can you?


Job uniqueness via weapon? Don't see it tbh, I just see restrictions that do nothing for job diversity. Not saying that there should be no restrictions at all however and I am not at all saying I want what we originally had, I thought it was horrible not sure how you got that from what I said.

I didn't say I want all classes/jobs to be equally proficient with all weapons or have them work well with all skills for that matter. I just want to be able to experiment so that if I want my THF to use a dagger, or sword, or off-hand a KC that is possible. In FFXI I liked seeing SAMs going for a spear build at times when the times called for it, I liked seeing WAR be the class that was proficient in several different weapon classes using g.axe, axe, sword, same for DRK using g.sword and scythe.

My RDM could use a staff when in the backline or dual wield daggers/swords or use sword and board if on the frontline n XI. I liked that, depending on my style I use different items. Never did I think "hmm my RDM does not feel unique enough, I wish no other class used a sword". Having it the other way around though, I do feel too restricted and I don't see a good reason for it.

In WoW I've seen a lot of rogues using fist weapons, daggers, swords. I've seen warriors dual wielding 1-handers or using 2-handers or why not sword and board? Be it swords, axes, maces w/e you like and find the most fun and the best you have at the moment works. Makes it a lot easier to not look like the other dude beside you and you might both have different strenghts even though you are the same base class. Again I just felt that the diversity within the class was great and not having it isn't a good thing imo.

Diversity and job uniqueness is very important, and that should come primarily from a good and well designed skillset together with equipment that might be designed for that class. Like I said I am not saying everyone can use any weapon type or that there should be no restrictions at all as to specific weapons and what classes can use them, but I do feel there should be more options than having a weapon type equal a class.
#59 Nov 09 2012 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
The best part is, I don't need to create a poll, it's already been done:

Letter from the Producer, V (03/03/2011)

The second highest "What's wrong with the combat system" answer was "Spamming Actions." So they reduced the number of useless actions, and added auto attack. I know you stopped playing before they fully fleshed out the battle system and made it a bit more robust, but I don't have the same issues with it. I like the simplicity, honestly.


That poll doesn't answer the question. The question is whether or not SE should have come up with something different or revert back to the decade old system of using auto-attack to build a resource for using other abilities. I'm not saying that auto-attack wasn't an improvement over what was there, because it was; I'm saying that most people probably would have preferred something altogether different.
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#60 Nov 09 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
I don't really like the fact that a class/job is forced to use one type of weapon either. I like seeing diversity overall and I like freedom to choose what I think is the coolest and works best for a certain situation. A system where I become a class/job just because I equip a specifik weapon type is just something I see no point in having. Like, what are the advantages?

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 10:24am by Belcrono


Job Identity and uniqueness. We everyone could use a Greataxe, everyone would so they could use Steel Cyclone. You are basically saying you want what we originally had, everyone could wear any gear (not weapons) and everyone looked the same and wore gear way above their level to look cool.

Why would you want to use whatever weapon you want? IN WHAT MMO can you?


Job uniqueness via weapon? Don't see it tbh, I just see restrictions that do nothing for job diversity. Not saying that there should be no restrictions at all however and I am not at all saying I want what we originally had, I thought it was horrible not sure how you got that from what I said.

I didn't say I want all classes/jobs to be equally proficient with all weapons or have them work well with all skills for that matter. I just want to be able to experiment so that if I want my THF to use a dagger, or sword, or off-hand a KC that is possible. In FFXI I liked seeing SAMs going for a spear build at times when the times called for it, I liked seeing WAR be the class that was proficient in several different weapon classes using g.axe, axe, sword, same for DRK using g.sword and scythe.

My RDM could use a staff when in the backline or dual wield daggers/swords or use sword and board if on the frontline n XI. I liked that, depending on my style I use different items. Never did I think "hmm my RDM does not feel unique enough, I wish no other class used a sword". Having it the other way around though, I do feel too restricted and I don't see a good reason for it.

In WoW I've seen a lot of rogues using fist weapons, daggers, swords. I've seen warriors dual wielding 1-handers or using 2-handers or why not sword and board? Be it swords, axes, maces w/e you like and find the most fun and the best you have at the moment works. Makes it a lot easier to not look like the other dude beside you and you might both have different strenghts even though you are the same base class. Again I just felt that the diversity within the class was great and not having it isn't a good thing imo.

Diversity and job uniqueness is very important, and that should come primarily from a good and well designed skillset together with equipment that might be designed for that class. Like I said I am not saying everyone can use any weapon type or that there should be no restrictions at all as to specific weapons and what classes can use them, but I do feel there should be more options than having a weapon type equal a class.


I fully agree with you. I really enjoyed having an occasion where a different type of weapon works better. Even if just for fun, but being limited to a very specific weapon feels like handcuffs...not that I would know how handcuffs feel...

I was hoping that it would be something like this...

1) Most weapons would be available to every class, with on occasion slightly more restriction on that classes jobs, but with still a choice.

2) Weapons would work like this...every class would have access to the basic WS of that weapon, the only thing to make a difference from one class to the next (aside from stats) would be that some classes would have higher up WS's. Allowing for more say a 3 part combo, instead of 2. So while MRD using a spear would only have a 2 part combo, LNC would have a third one that they could tack on to it, BUT MRD might also have a reactive WS for that weapon while LNC would not, or an AOE WS, or maybe even change an existing basic WS into an AOE or cone. Possibly one class might get a non offensive TP spender instead of a traditional WS.

3) Jobs would add another alteration onto those WS's, so like DRG would add a critical bonus while WAR would add an ATK debuff on the target, and PLD would have extra enmity/hate generation.

This would leave room for multiple jobs per class, give some freedom to the players (granted it's balanced right), and still give each class/job something unique.
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#61 Nov 09 2012 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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as for the "arcanist got all thm's interesting abilities" line... Does anyone else wonder if they are so hard up on creativity that they needed to cannibalize an existing class to make a new one work - HOW will they add new classes?

That applies with the way "weapon = job" too. It's going to strangle the number of options we have.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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