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All of the hand holding.....Follow

#1 Nov 09 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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Do you enjoy all of the hand holding that games force us to have now a days? I don't know what game started this, and I understand wanting to appeal to larger groups, casuals in this case, however something that I just realized that I preferred games more, or I should say I paid more attention, when games didn't literally show me exactly where to go and when.

I just played Battlefield 3's single player campaign, COD (each copy of it) does it too, this overuse of the way points has caused me to completely tune out. This live updating step by step directions as caused me to pay as little attention as possible, and I think this is a bad thing. Older shooters, I used to pay attention, now, I don't pay attention to the story at all. I beat BF3, COD2/3/BO, and I couldn't tell you anything about the story.

FFXIV does this, but FFXI didn't.

It used to be, you had to talk to NPC's, pay some attention to what they're saying, some were very subtle, while others were very direct, but they never literally showed you exactly where to go, and exactly what to grab.

Don't get me wrong, I know at some point, I'll look to the internet for help, but I spent a lot more time questing the old way and enjoyed it a lot more, than I do now since I just tune out because I know that they're going to show me what to do anyways.

And I know it's not because I've aged (/cry), since I play older games that I newer got around too, that do not hold my hand, and I pay way more attention to them.

Should FFXIV remove the constant step-by-step (day-by-day, a fresh start...) direction with way points and use dialogue ...
Yes, for all content :4 (25.0%)
No, for all content :6 (37.5%)
Yes for certain content, No for others. (please Explain) :6 (37.5%)
Total:16
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#2 Nov 09 2012 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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VayMasters wrote:
Do you enjoy all of the hand holding that games force us to have now a days?

Most games have the option to disable things like this and if you're particular about it then you should exercise this option.

Polls are only as useful as the question being asked. There will be a sharp contrast between a poll that asks "Do you think games should focus on quest dialogue instead of waypoints?" and "Do you enjoy being spoon-fed content like a little baby?" even though you might see them as generally the same question.

Ultimately the answer will always be the same, a choice is the best option. Even if you had posed the question in a better way, it will always be better to allow all options if possible.


Edited, Nov 9th 2012 6:52pm by FilthMcNasty
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#3 Nov 09 2012 at 6:06 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
VayMasters wrote:
Do you enjoy all of the hand holding that games force us to have now a days?

Most games have the option to disable things like this and if you're particular about it then you should exercise this option.

Polls are only as useful as the question being asked. There will be a sharp contrast between a poll that asks "Do you think games should focus on quest dialogue instead of waypoints?" and "Do you enjoy being spoon-fed content like a little baby?" even though you might see them as generally the same question.

Ultimately the answer will always be the same, a choice is the best option. Even if you had posed the question in a better way, it will always be better to allow all options if possible.


Edited, Nov 9th 2012 6:52pm by FilthMcNasty


When your bringing a kid somewhere you hold their hand (or put them on a leash), they're along for the ride, everything isn't being done for them, but it might as well be. If you're going somewhere with a blind person, typicall they hold your arm and follow you, same difference.

I phrased it the way I did for a reason, since that's the question I'm asking. "Do you enjoy being spoon-fed content like a little baby?" is ridiculously general and can mean essentially anything in a game.

Did 1.0 have this option? If 1.0 didn't I don't see any indication that 2.0 will. I would think from a developer pov they'd want people to pay attention since they put in the time and money with the dialogue. With way points, everyone I know seems to just spam "enter" or "X" and then follow the GPS.

Edited, Nov 9th 2012 7:09pm by VayMasters
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#4 Nov 09 2012 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?
#5 Nov 09 2012 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?


There's no way to turn it off is there?

And even if the wiki is there, you still have to pay attention to cues a lot of the time to know what point in the quest you're in. As it is now, It's way point or no way. Most dialogue doesn't give any clue on how to achieve your goal, just giving you the goal itself, and you instead have this giant "x" so to speak on a map.

It's like that testing that was done when people know it's something they could look up on the inter, they're least likely to remember it themselves. Subconscious or conscious, it's like a psychological trick.
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#6 Nov 09 2012 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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VayMasters wrote:
Did 1.0 have this option? If 1.0 didn't I don't see any indication that 2.0 will.

1.0 isn't any indication of what 2.0 will bring, nor should it be. The mindset that 'it wasn't in 1.0 so it won't be in 2.0' is logic that fails for obvious reasons. The biggest overhaul that XIV is receiving in the update is to the UI. Quest log and minimap features both fall under that category so until it can be proven otherwise, it's wise to stay away from making an assumption that it will or won't be there.

VayMasters wrote:
With way points, everyone I know seems to just spam "enter" or "X" and then follow the GPS.

It should be a pretty clear indication of what people want if everyone you know prefers one way to the other. Would stand to reason that giving people the option would satisfy both.
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#7 Nov 09 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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hmm... I don't necessarily care to stumble around in the dark for hours trying to do a quest. Lol. I am a casual player through and through so if they want to show me where to go by all means... I mean it might be nice if it is put in the quest log and NOT shown on minimap? That at least calls for some exploration, but narrows your area down a lot to make it reasonable.
#8 Nov 09 2012 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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VayMasters wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?


There's no way to turn it off is there?

And even if the wiki is there, you still have to pay attention to cues a lot of the time to know what point in the quest you're in. As it is now, It's way point or no way. Most dialogue doesn't give any clue on how to achieve your goal, just giving you the goal itself, and you instead have this giant "x" so to speak on a map.

It's like that testing that was done when people know it's something they could look up on the inter, they're least likely to remember it themselves. Subconscious or conscious, it's like a psychological trick.


its nothing like a psychological trick.

its really simple. if devs dont hold people by the hand, people look to wikis. history has proven this. while some people might refuse, the majority prefer looking it up online if it isnt spelled out ingame.

the option idea...doesnt really work. unless you are playing solo all the time. people will "spoil" your quests.

being vague and not really telling players where exactly to go doesnt work, because players have gotten used to the handholding. not to mention that kind of thing is seen by contemporary devs as bad game design. if you have to log off the game or alt-tab to complete a quest, its considered fail from a design perspective.

handholding makes the game feel more linear, less yours. you feel like youre just on the same track as everyone else.

idk, the whole mmo model needs to be reworked. which is happening. but due to the nature of the genre, and due to people's fear of things new and different, it is happening slowly. and a lot of the changes seem aimed at "streamlining" the whole experience, (WoW basically started the trend) which isnt necessarily the way to go with an MMO.


personally id prefer a game where the npcs just describe to the player, in detail, where to go. ie, theres a large rock to the west of X outpost. the rock looks like a dragon head when viewed from the outpost. theres a tiny oasis next to the rock. and a strange shaped cactus. go there and search around it. or something.

the problem with that kind of detailed info, from a dev perspective, is that it requires more work than just tossing some waypoints at a map. you need landmarks, which means actually utilizing intelligent level design. waypoints are fine for beginner quests that are designed to familiarize the player with their new world. other than that, meh.

GW2 has made strides by going a bit outside the mmo box. many quests come from npcs who may run up to you, poke you and say "hey come with me i need help". they lead you to the quest. following them and protecting them IS part of the quest. much more organic and immersive. plus, if you stick around after "completing" said quest, the npc will usually have something else for you to do. (thanks for escorting me to this treasure, oh hey now that we're back at camp, i could use your help defending against the angry bandits we stole said treasure from, etc etc and all of a sudden youre doing a quest chain)


sorry, kinda unfocused post.
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#9 Nov 10 2012 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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VayMasters wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?


There's no way to turn it off is there?

And even if the wiki is there, you still have to pay attention to cues a lot of the time to know what point in the quest you're in. As it is now, It's way point or no way. Most dialogue doesn't give any clue on how to achieve your goal, just giving you the goal itself, and you instead have this giant "x" so to speak on a map.

It's like that testing that was done when people know it's something they could look up on the inter, they're least likely to remember it themselves. Subconscious or conscious, it's like a psychological trick.


Most quests have a dialogue or a cutscene where the characters tell you what they'd like you to do next, or at least drop the hint where the next place you'll want to visit or the next person you'll want to see to advance the questline. In case it still isn't obvious, a couple of clicks later, there's a text-based Journal which recaps the questline so far and tells you what the most recent thing you should be trying to do now. And if that still leaves you in the dark, then, and only then, can you choose to hit the Map button that finally shows you the exact spot you need to go to.

So, I still don't understand why you have a problem, here. You get the dialogue version of what to do. You get the story-so-far version of what to do. And then, as the last resort, in a place you have to dig a bit for it, do you get the "GO HERE!" option, which would also be on the internet all over place even if it wasn't there. I don't know how they could do this any better to meet everyone's needs then the way that they have.
#10 Nov 10 2012 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?


The one thing I lost appreciation for was the blind hunting in FFXI and ended up waiting to do new things. It got too aggravating to keep looking for the needle in the haystack. The haystack was just an entire zone or more in size. Now that I can only play from time to time I really appreciate waypoints so very much.
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#11 Nov 10 2012 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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I voted the 3rd option because I think in some instances it is necessary to let the player know where to go next, however not all. I like FilthyMcNasty's idea of being able to turn off features like that, however I don't think most people would.

What I would rather see is when the player is directed to an area and the objective has to be found in that area. Right not in 1.0, and in several other MMOs, the player is direct to the exact position of the objective. What I'd like to see is that the player is told which zone, and maybe even which corner of the zone, to find the objective.

For an idea of what NOT to do , go look at the majority quests in Final Fantasy XI. They were designed terribly, often giving no clue whatsoever about who to go talk to next and what was needed to further the quest. Think about this... it was so bad people were data mining the dat files to figure out how to complete quests. That's telling.

So I'd prefer a mix of the two ideas, with the option to disable hints entirely.
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#12 Nov 10 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
I voted the 3rd option because I think in some instances it is necessary to let the player know where to go next, however not all. I like FilthyMcNasty's idea of being able to turn off features like that, however I don't think most people would.

What I would rather see is when the player is directed to an area and the objective has to be found in that area. Right not in 1.0, and in several other MMOs, the player is direct to the exact position of the objective. What I'd like to see is that the player is told which zone, and maybe even which corner of the zone, to find the objective.

For an idea of what NOT to do , go look at the majority quests in Final Fantasy XI. They were designed terribly, often giving no clue whatsoever about who to go talk to next and what was needed to further the quest. Think about this... it was so bad people were data mining the dat files to figure out how to complete quests. That's telling.

So I'd prefer a mix of the two ideas, with the option to disable hints entirely.



Yeah, I think a good mix of options is the best way to go. Give people the ability to play how they want.
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#13 Nov 10 2012 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
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If you do not like hand holding, then do not use it ? I have yet to understand this need to dictate how other people should play character/toon/avatar... If you do not enjoy it or like it, then there is the option of not using it, just read the text and go about your way, of X person decides to look at the log and find exactly where it is, how does that takes away from your enjoyment ?

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#14 Nov 10 2012 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Bakkasan wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?


The one thing I lost appreciation for was the blind hunting in FFXI and ended up waiting to do new things. It got too aggravating to keep looking for the needle in the haystack. The haystack was just an entire zone or more in size. Now that I can only play from time to time I really appreciate waypoints so very much.


That or, despite what OP thinks, FFXI was purposely vague as to frustrate you into logging off. The best example of this is the AF quest lines. You get one clue "There used to be a mythical blacksmith that made powerful gloves. Other powerful items also existed in the world."

And that was it. I'm sorry that's not "teasing" the player: that's being a lazy F*** when it comes to bothering with quests.

Ostia wrote:
If you do not like hand holding, then do not use it ? I have yet to understand this need to dictate how other people should play character/toon/avatar... If you do not enjoy it or like it, then there is the option of not using it, just read the text and go about your way, of X person decides to look at the log and find exactly where it is, how does that takes away from your enjoyment ?


Misery loves company. It's the stupid mentality that "I bothered to put up with stupid decisions and avoid admitting that I used a Wiki too. All new players should have to deal with the same lazy design decisions I did." It has nothing to do with fun or "exploration". It's simply a veiled whine post about how bad developers were at guiding players back in the day and how it's not fair that they've gotten better, therefore everyone else should have to deal with the headache.

You see this crop up on very game forum for pretty much any game that advances and gets better at presenting information and developing better tools to convey said information.
#15 Nov 10 2012 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
Bakkasan wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Either the game spells out where these "waypoints" are or a wiki will. So it's simply "feature complete" for the game to offer what most people want to know. You're under no obligation to use it, however, so you can get that roam-in-the-dark feeling all you want. Shouldn't that satisfy the issue?


The one thing I lost appreciation for was the blind hunting in FFXI and ended up waiting to do new things. It got too aggravating to keep looking for the needle in the haystack. The haystack was just an entire zone or more in size. Now that I can only play from time to time I really appreciate waypoints so very much.


That or, despite what OP thinks, FFXI was purposely vague as to frustrate you into logging off. The best example of this is the AF quest lines. You get one clue "There used to be a mythical blacksmith that made powerful gloves. Other powerful items also existed in the world."

And that was it. I'm sorry that's not "teasing" the player: that's being a lazy F*** when it comes to bothering with quests.

Ostia wrote:
If you do not like hand holding, then do not use it ? I have yet to understand this need to dictate how other people should play character/toon/avatar... If you do not enjoy it or like it, then there is the option of not using it, just read the text and go about your way, of X person decides to look at the log and find exactly where it is, how does that takes away from your enjoyment ?


Misery loves company. It's the stupid mentality that "I bothered to put up with stupid decisions and avoid admitting that I used a Wiki too. All new players should have to deal with the same lazy design decisions I did." It has nothing to do with fun or "exploration". It's simply a veiled whine post about how bad developers were at guiding players back in the day and how it's not fair that they've gotten better, therefore everyone else should have to deal with the headache.

You see this crop up on very game forum for pretty much any game that advances and gets better at presenting information and developing better tools to convey said information.


I'm not talking about it becoming ridiculous vague like FFXI was. And it's not misery, more like mystery.

There were many quests in FFXI that I only finished because I was talking to every NPC just to make sure I didn't miss a quest. But as it is now, just knowing that every step that I have to take has a way point takes away all of the mystery. What's the point of having a fleshed out and detailed world when you can put 99% of your attention to a movie playing several feet away from the game and still finish most of the content?

It seems the Devs and many players feel there's no point in between ridiculously easy and ludicrously hard/tedious.
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#16 Nov 10 2012 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Taking out the hand-holding won't make any of those games any better -- it won't put interesting goals, creative content, or extra secrets throughout an area; they're designed from the very beginning to be simple walks from point A to B. There's a newer, wider, much more profitable market now: the idiot, and, for the most part, designers don't care about making an interesting project as much as "monetizing annually recurring IPs."
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