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#52 Nov 18 2012 at 4:27 AM Rating: Decent
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The two of you have depicted every ounce of information and advertisment in the worst possible light

First post.
#53 Nov 18 2012 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
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The two of you have depicted every ounce of information and advertisment in the worst possible light

First post.


Is he wrong?
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#54 Nov 18 2012 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Is he wrong?

Yes. As evidenced by the first post in this thread.
#55 Nov 18 2012 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Filth himself is STILL denying the fact that FFXIV's total reboot is the first of its degree accomplished.

Speaking of expectations... Attempted. The word you are looking for here, is attempted. It hasn't yet been accomplished.

A key component to this equation is being overlooked by you Hyrist. The reason why SE is scrapping all of these core components of their game is because they are all fundamentally flawed. While the transformation of XIV is being touted by you as unprecedented, you are forgetting that the failure was colossal enough to warrant it.

It may be true that one single game has never before made such an overhaul, but that only supports the point that never before has a company with as much experience as SE has, made a game so poorly that the changes were necessary to make in an effort to salvage it.


The only things I have had to say about ARR since the release of the first gameplay video have been good. Not sure where you're picking that up from, but as Rin stated above... the evidence to dismiss that claim is in plain view. The only comments I've made against XIV were in regards to 1.0 and all prior to 2.0 even having the ARR tag.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#56 Nov 18 2012 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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In other words, FFXIV 2.0 is the first major MMO that's going to have to overcome this much emotional baggage.
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#57 Nov 18 2012 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

A key component to this equation is being overlooked by you Hyrist. The reason why SE is scrapping all of these core components of their game is because they are all fundamentally flawed. While the transformation of XIV is being touted by you as unprecedented, you are forgetting that the failure was colossal enough to warrant it.

It may be true that one single game has never before made such an overhaul, but that only supports the point that never before has a company with as much experience as SE has, made a game so poorly that the changes were necessary to make in an effort to salvage it.

NCSoft would like to have a word with you on that. They've had far more MMO's under their belt with far more games that have had to go free to play. This is Squares second MMO and the first wasn't wildly successful in comparison to the field of MMOs. (Even though it is their most profitable game. )

The Compoent you mention hasn't been overlooked at all. And again you depict things in the worst possible light. You act as if modern MMO 'failures' aren't commonplace.

As a reminder as to the trend of the field of games, very view game companies make a concentrated effort to reboot their game entirely. Rather, they simply change their payment model in an effort to get the players who think "I don't want to pay a subscription for this" to get in and then fall victim to the habit of impulse buying additional perks/trinkets. Or, as others have mention, they try to slap a new coat of skins on the game to make it look flashier.

While the situation did warrant a client-remake. The fact that Square Enix decided to do just that instead of giving up is part that needs to be commended above all else. This is a move no one expected out of them and many turned around and said "Just shut it down, you can't hope to come back from this."

Many more companies did simply fold up, close their doors and move on.

Oh, and as far as remaking the game goes. That is already an accomplishment. It's in alpha stage and it will be released. The success of this accomplishment will be determined on a person to person basis, and again, I am doubtful that you and Rinsui will be pleased at the final product - though I am more than happy to be wrong if and when that turns out to be the case. But until then, just as you will 'wait and see' as far as AAR goes, so will I wait and see to see if your dispositions change.

A few "Nice Trailer, but..." comments aren't sufficient enough to change a year +'s worth of negativity.
#58 Nov 18 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not a year +'s of negativity, it' a year +'s of cautiousness. So, for the record:
I think the new team is doing something pretty impressive. So far, what I have
seen warrants hope. That hope is becoming more realistic with every passing
month. That's all you'll get from me, because that's all there is to be gotten atm.
#59 Nov 18 2012 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
It's not a year +'s of negativity, it' a year +'s of cautiousness. So, for the record:
I think the new team is doing something pretty impressive. So far, what I have
seen warrants hope. That hope is becoming more realistic with every passing
month. That's all you'll get from me, because that's all there is to be gotten atm.

The argumentative part of me wants to cite your post history.

But I will take what you say at face value and merely state that it is an impressive feat for Square Enix to take those who were singing their requim naught two years ago to now be looking at FFXIV with a bit a hope.

I will admit that I am apprehensive about A Realm Reborn due to what good memories I did take away from version one. From the Primal Fights to the joyful thrill of United We Stand, to the feeling undeniable pressure of To Kill a Raven and the feeling of impending doom and even loss on the events leading up to the End of an Era.

I must confess that these experiences have left me with my expectations heightened and the feeling of fear that the new system they implement will not live up to the experiences now behind me. 1.0 was a deeply flawed and broken system, but within it they crafted a story that made a powerful impression that I haven't felt since the World of Ruin in FFVI. (And in my first playthrough in that game, Celes attempted suicide. And it was my first exposure to someone attempting to take their own life.)

So while you have their failures for them to have to make up for, they also have their successes, for what they were, to love up to for me.

Here's to hoping.
#60 Nov 18 2012 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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From the Primal Fights to the joyful thrill of United We Stand, to the feeling undeniable pressure of To Kill a Raven and the feeling of impending doom and even loss on the events leading up to the End of an Era.


Referring to my last post, this is actually a point of immediate concern for me. As I understand it, they're scrapping all this content completely for ARR. This is content that they've already developed, tested, and to my best knowledge, people really enjoyed. Obviously for the purposes of lore, they can't keep the content as-is, but there's no reason they can't slap a new face on it, or offer it under a different context. Any time I see a game wasting content in this way, I immediately know that the designers don't manage their resources especially well. Good game designers have to know how to use existing design patterns to create new content... so, I really hope that when they say these instances won't be available, they only mean that in the most literal sense, and otherwise plan to reuse that gameplay content in other ways.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Nov 18 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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No. The way this content was made, there's no way to just give it a fresh coat of paint.

First off, the combat was balanced based off the old combat system, with the way players start with Full TP now, it's impossible for the fights to go the way they did before.

Second, the structure of each fight, especially the story fights, were custom tailored to the story. Nael Darnus called out fragments from Dalamud. The battle of the United we Stand was in an imperial stronghold calling Dalamud (Sad, I loved that fight dearly, I hope they do take the lessons learned in that fight and apply them. It was a fight with an objective, rather than an strict enemy to defeat.)

There's no way to replicate those circumstances.

The Primal Battles? I could take a guess that they'll be similar, but redesigned to fit the combat pacing. But given the fact that the fights we experienced with the old client were fairly well thought out (aside from a few balancing bugs) I'm not worried that the fights themselves will be one detrimental. Even the dungeon fights from the older 1.0 versions had some interesting twists to them.

My concern was more about the story surrounding them, and the recognition that some of the people going into this new version are not approaching it from the perspective of a new adventurer, but rather a hardened veteran. I hope the NPCs don't treat my character like a stranger just because I've been gone five years. (Godamnit I want a hug!)

Also that sense of urgency that was around the game at that time was pretty deep. Hope they can replicate it.
#62 Nov 18 2012 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Anything can be replicated with a coat of paint. That you think otherwise just tells me that you aren't using your imagination.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Nov 18 2012 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Wasn't trying to snip at you, btw, so to expound a bit:

Rebalancing existing content due to system changes, slapping a new skin on the area/monsters, and creating a new context for the scenario-- as complicated as that may sound-- is still much easier than creating new content entirely from scratch. So perhaps it has less to do with a lack of imagination than a lack of understanding about the game design process, but my point is, throwing away good content is never justified.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 Nov 18 2012 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Let me make this clear:

The client and server programs for 1.0 will be scrapped entirely. They would have to reprogram the fights pretty much from scratch and to do that they might as well create fresh content.

Even if you scrapped the story surrounding it, the fights as they were would be unbalanced because the entire fighting system has been re-written. The absolute best they could do was to create something mildly similar in theme but rebalanced entirely around the new combat system.

That goes far beyond 'a fresh coat of paint' especially from the point of view of the programmer.

That does not mean my desires aren't in line with yours. "The Raven, Nevermore" Is a fight I would love for them to reimpliment, due to the fact that it was a non-cannon fight that was highly difficult and unique. However, that request has already been shot down by Yoshida himself, so you might want to settle into the idea that the content produced for 1.0's storyline is, as advertised, unique to 1.0 and will not show up in a Realm Reborn.

It's nothing against you personally. I'm just trying to squash expectations that will stretch a little beyond what's realistic. I'm anxious to see what new fights they'll produce, especially seeming each fight they did produce progressively got better than the last.

Edited, Nov 18th 2012 7:33pm by Hyrist
#65 Nov 18 2012 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
In other words, FFXIV 2.0 is the first major MMO that's going to have to overcome this much emotional baggage.


Smiley: lolSmiley: laughSmiley: lol
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#66 Nov 18 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
NCSoft would like to have a word with you on that. They've had far more MMO's under their belt with far more games that have had to go free to play. This is Squares second MMO and the first wasn't wildly successful in comparison to the field of MMOs. (Even though it is their most profitable game.)

XI didn't damage the brand.

Hyrist wrote:
The Compoent you mention hasn't been overlooked at all. And again you depict things in the worst possible light. You act as if modern MMO 'failures' aren't commonplace.


From this thread, in a post that was a response to you I stated that ARR looked like SE was making progress in their effort to restore XIV. How is that the 'worst possible light'?

I never said nor implied that MMOs don't fail. If you'd like I'll be glad to dig up the post where I spewed several paragraphs about the market being saturated, companies stealing their own customers, ect. ect.

Hyrist wrote:
While the situation did warrant a client-remake. The fact that Square Enix decided to do just that instead of giving up is part that needs to be commended above all else. This is a move no one expected out of them and many turned around and said "Just shut it down, you can't hope to come back from this."

Many more companies did simply fold up, close their doors and move on.

See, this is where we differ. You have a rose-colored crystal ball that allows you to see the future and I base my judgements only on what has happened in the past or present.

'Splain it to me Lucy, why exactly does a company deserve to be commended for trying to save face after possibly damaging their most popular and profitable brand? Oh, right... because other companies are smart enough to cut their losses?

My position isn't likely to change because the battle and class systems are also unlikely to change and those are the biggest deterrents to me. Even though it might not be the game for me, I haven't doomed it to failure because of that. It's not like I'm on some crusade to bring the game down because I might not enjoy it, but 1.0 was flawed far beyond just personal preference. If you had the 'wait and see' approach that Rin and I do then you wouldn't be basing your argument on the potential of what XIV may become. Jus sayin'.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#67 Nov 19 2012 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
As a reminder as to the trend of the field of games, very few game companies make a concentrated effort to reboot their game entirely. Rather, they simply change their payment model in an effort to get the players who think "I don't want to pay a subscription for this" to get in and then fall victim to the habit of impulse buying additional perks/trinkets. Or, as others have mention, they try to slap a new coat of skins on the game to make it look flashier.

While the situation did warrant a client-remake. The fact that Square Enix decided to do just that instead of giving up is part that needs to be commended above all else. This is a move no one expected out of them and many turned around and said "Just shut it down, you can't hope to come back from this."

Many more companies did simply fold up, close their doors and move on.
This. The Old Republic is currently undergoing the transition into FTP basically because Bioware wants to milk what it can from the game before folding. It's as clear as day to anyone who has played TOR and understands what creating content for such a game entails. BW also was in a situation where they could own up to their mistakes (many design flaws, horrible game engine, broken class design) and fix them, but instead is doing exactly what Hyrist is saying: changing their payment method to pull in those who didn't want to pay a sub and then get them to shell out money for features in the form of the cartel market.

I'm personally in wait and see mode, but even I am optimistic to what will come with 2.0. I don't agree with it 100% (I'm still against the forced level caps in dungeons and primal battles), but things can only go up from where the game was.
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#68 Nov 19 2012 at 5:11 AM Rating: Default
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Technically they could have had the content in 1.0 in 2.0 since now they have unleashed the almighty "Time travel" lame excuse that seems to be plaguing SE ******* lately, they could have built a scenario where your character travels with the "Echo" back in time to experience the story in 1.0 and fight againts raven, all they had to do was fix the encounter to the current battle mechanics, something that should not be that hard, considering that newer fights should be based on that encounter ( Which is their best encounter mechanic wise across both XI and XIV. )

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#69 Nov 19 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
In other words, FFXIV 2.0 is the first major MMO that's going to have to overcome this much emotional baggage.


Will ARR have extra Retainers to solely carry the emotional baggage?
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#70 Nov 19 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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zoogelio wrote:
catwho wrote:
In other words, FFXIV 2.0 is the first major MMO that's going to have to overcome this much emotional baggage.


Will ARR have extra Retainers to solely carry the emotional baggage?

Emotional baggage will not be released until the 2.1 patch. They need to address the issue of retainers not having enough inventory space to carry it all Smiley: sly
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#71 Nov 19 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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The client and server programs for 1.0 will be scrapped entirely. They would have to reprogram the fights pretty much from scratch and to do that they might as well create fresh content.


Arguably, the programming is only half the work, and that's the work that I was counting on them having to redo. The game isn't created on the fingertips of the programmers; they're following schematics of the designers, which are a significant development resource. If the designers manage to create good content, even if it has to be reworked significantly, then scrapping it is a mistake. In fact, reusing and reworking what's already been done is the hallmark of an effective game designer. It's for the same reason that when content is TERRIBLE, they still don't generally throw it all out-- it's much more efficient to rework it into something decent.

Mind you, I'm not at all disagreeing with the notion that they won't do it. I'm simply saying that to me it speaks ill of them if they don't. But greater ills have been spoken of late wherein SE is concerned.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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