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#1 Nov 21 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't play ffxiv, but I remember looking at the site and there were 2 types of humes. My question is will there be 2 types on 2.0 and for those who did play what was the difference?
#2 Nov 21 2012 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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There were two types to every race. I'm not sure if there was a difference other than appearance options and I'm assuming those will carry over to 2.0.
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#3 Nov 22 2012 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry for my ignorance, but you're telling me race does not effect jobs/class whatsoever? That's disappointing.
#4 Nov 22 2012 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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No that's not what I said at all. There are minor differences between races (like Hume versus Lallafel, etc) in regards to stats/attributes but as far as difference between a Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te and a Seeker of the Sun Miqo'te (which is what you asked about, the types of races), it is cosmetic only as far as we know (which is what I said).
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#5 Nov 22 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Okay sorry for the misunderstanding.
#6 Nov 22 2012 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keepers of the Moon always seemed to glow a little. That was cool. And the Dunesfolk Lalafell have a tapetum lucidem, so they have cool reflective and often mismatched eyes.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 7:13pm by catwho
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#7 Nov 23 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Sorry for my ignorance, but you're telling me race does not effect jobs/class whatsoever? That's disappointing.


I fail to see what's disappointing about the fact that you can play whatever race and class combination you want and be equally effective. If that sort of thing breaks your suspension of disbelief, MMOs in general are not going to provide an especially immersive experience. Tons of unrealistic stuff, even by fantasy standards.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#8 Nov 23 2012 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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It's disappointing to me because I like how ffxi was, it makes sense that a race can be better on a job. When you choose a race because of the job you want to me it just adds more to the game. I don't like how people can choose a weapon and change jobs and the fact that every race is equally qualified for the job. It's just too easy..
#9 Nov 23 2012 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I'm certainly not going to tell you what's fun for you, but for myself and probably most people, race is best left to a cosmetic choice. It really sucks when the race you want to play isn't good at the class you want to play, and it's usually not a particularly strategic choice even when it matters. Lots of unhappy Galkan mages in FFXI weren't worth it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#10 Nov 24 2012 at 3:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
for myself and probably most people, race is best left to a cosmetic choice.


I must not be one of those people, I really appreciate the differences that are/were inherent between the races and was disappointed that there were no real differences between the two types of each race (keeper/seeker for example) and birthday/diety choice in XIV. Meaningful character customization choices can truly enhance a serious players game experience. I played a mithra in ffxi because I wanted to be the best thief and ninja I possibly could be. If there were angry galka mages they should have more carefully considered their race choice when they were creating their character, or chosen a more suitable job path if they were set on being galka imho.

It just seems a little unnecessary to differentiate between the 2 types of each race if there is no difference, you could just change their color on the character creation screen to make them look bright or dark or mystical or whatever u want. I think what it really boils down to is that actually labeling the two types implies that there is a difference, and if that difference is strictly cosmetic its a bit of a letdown.
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#11 Nov 24 2012 at 6:24 AM Rating: Good
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Elamille wrote:
Kachi wrote:
for myself and probably most people, race is best left to a cosmetic choice.


If there were angry galka mages they should have more carefully considered their race choice when they were creating their character, or chosen a more suitable job path if they were set on being galka imho.



Your point would be valid if FF was like WoW where you only played one job per character. But the reality is that many of the Galka mages started out as Galka WAR's and after maxing out WAR they wanted to experience other facets of the game without having to relevel everything. Should they have to suffer a disadvantage due to race when they want to experience the rest of the game content? I know for myself, I played FFXI for many years and played many different jobs. I actually chose Hume for my race because I didn't want to be "handicapped" by my choice down the road...

I understand how making stats tied to race does add to the "lore" of the game, but it also puts people at a disadvantage when they want to experience the ENTIRE content of the game. Granted, the stat differentials at endgame could generally be overcome by gear. However, if you took two players of equal skill and equal access to gear, a TT BLM would own a GLK BLM every time. This is what should be avoided in XIV. Either that or you force them to all be Humes.
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#12 Nov 24 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Default
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If there are 2 types to every race, they can easily make it so they are different stats wise when it comes to choosing. Make one balanced and the other with an edge on a certain job.
#13 Nov 24 2012 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Elamille wrote:
Kachi wrote:
for myself and probably most people, race is best left to a cosmetic choice.


If there were angry galka mages they should have more carefully considered their race choice when they were creating their character, or chosen a more suitable job path if they were set on being galka imho.



Your point would be valid if FF was like WoW where you only played one job per character. But the reality is that many of the Galka mages started out as Galka WAR's and after maxing out WAR they wanted to experience other facets of the game without having to relevel everything. Should they have to suffer a disadvantage due to race when they want to experience the rest of the game content? I know for myself, I played FFXI for many years and played many different jobs. I actually chose Hume for my race because I didn't want to be "handicapped" by my choice down the road...

I understand how making stats tied to race does add to the "lore" of the game, but it also puts people at a disadvantage when they want to experience the ENTIRE content of the game. Granted, the stat differentials at endgame could generally be overcome by gear. However, if you took two players of equal skill and equal access to gear, a TT BLM would own a GLK BLM every time. This is what should be avoided in XIV. Either that or you force them to all be Humes.


I get what you are saying but disagree. I think encouraging players to experience content from multiple view points is a good move for SE. I personally believe this is one reason WoW was so successful at retaining players. It was because to experience each race or class you had to start a new character. I'm not saying they can't be successful with the current structure but there is some benefit to SE if they add race specific abilities and are able to successfully get players to operate multiple characters.

I think there is too much fear that it will be an incredible commitment to level like XI per-Abyssea. Yoshi-P has already said he wants the pace to be faster. Having 6 or 8 capped characters will likely be possible.
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#14 Nov 24 2012 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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I played a mithra in ffxi because I wanted to be the best thief and ninja I possibly could be. If there were angry galka mages they should have more carefully considered their race choice when they were creating their character, or chosen a more suitable job path if they were set on being galka imho.


I think this misses the point. What if, for example, I didn't like any of the races, and I just wanted to be a human? What if I want to be the best mage, but I hate the way Tarutaru look? Now I'm being forced to pick between the two. So while I get that it adds something to the game for some people, what it adds is not nearly equivalent to what it takes away from the many players who just want to make the best-looking character they can and also pursue a performance-related goal.

That's what it really comes down to. You don't want most players to be slapped in the face during the character creation screen with the realization that they have to choose between getting their character to look the way they want it, or having the opportunity to be the best they can be at their job. This is easy when you're ambivalent about those things, such as if you like the races about equally, but for most people, this isn't a good thing.

It's the exact same reason why many players ask for--and many new games are delivering-- systems where the gear stats and cosmetics can be interchanged. People complained for YEARS about the look of the Haubergeon in FFXI, for example, because they HAD to wear it for performance, and many of them hated the way it looked.

In psychology, this is called goal conflict, and it's not something you want to facilitate as a game designer.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Nov 24 2012 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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I get what you are saying but disagree. I think encouraging players to experience content from multiple view points is a good move for SE. I personally believe this is one reason WoW was so successful at retaining players. It was because to experience each race or class you had to start a new character. I'm not saying they can't be successful with the current structure but there is some benefit to SE if they add race specific abilities and are able to successfully get players to operate multiple characters.


Encouraging players to experience content from multiple points of view occurs when you get them to play a new class, not a new race. A new race does not generally change the fundamental game experience, while a new class should.

As a counter-example, I liked playing GW2, but now I'm capped on my Sylvari Necromancer, whom I really like. If I could level a new class with him, that's what I'd do. Instead, I'd have to make a new character. I've tried a couple of times, and it just doesn't do anything for me at all. The races all have some differences, but they certainly don't create an entirely new playstyle. As a result, I quit playing even though there's plenty of content to experience.

Strictly from a psychological point of view, FFXI did this correctly. The problem, if anything, was that they made the leveling XP costs far too high for players to experience the content from the multiple viewpoints of differing classes at a reasonable pace. There are lots of ways such as this that they managed content engagement poorly, but the fundamental system of allowing players to play every class on one character was right on the money.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Nov 24 2012 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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The benefit of racial stats, to me, encourages you to think about what you plan to specialize in. It also adds a challenging dynamic if you decide to try a class/job not necessarily suited for your race.

The downfall obviously is when your tastes in race and class don't match up. So in that sense in can be a downer. I guess I've been fortunate in this latter regard. The races I've preferred always gear towards the classes I like. Except maybe for Eve. I Would pick the Amarr race that didn't like lasers! XD
Fortunately it was less an issue than say FFXI or EQ.
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#17 Nov 24 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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It takes away the ability of you being unique, when you can become anything anytime you want, with the same stats as everyone else. That is only separated by gear. It's disappointing to me but not a deal breaker.
#18 Nov 24 2012 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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The benefit of racial stats, to me, encourages you to think about what you plan to specialize in. It also adds a challenging dynamic if you decide to try a class/job not necessarily suited for your race.


Thing is, a lot of people don't necessarily want to be "specialists." They want to be able to play and enjoy all the game's content. When you take possibilities away from them at the start, that puts unwelcome pressure on them. For every person that appreciated the racial differences in FFXI, there were 10 players who lamented that the race they chose because they liked it wasn't suited to the class they wanted to play.

I'm not saying that it can't work out fine. Having a way to change races, for example, is a classic way to circumvent the problems of it. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Quote:
It takes away the ability of you being unique, when you can become anything anytime you want, with the same stats as everyone else. That is only separated by gear. It's disappointing to me but not a deal breaker.


Doesn't have to. For example, people can take different abilities in FFXIV. Bingo, you're not the same as everyone else, and instead of some minor statistical attributes, you actually do different things. If anything, I felt more unique as an Elvaan Samurai because I chose the race I wanted to play, not because the tiny STR bonus made me almost unnoticeably better. But if the difference were more clear, and almost everyone who mained a Samurai picked Elvaan, then I'd be surrounded by players just like me. The reality was that I saw Samurai of lots of different races who played at the same level as I did. At the same time, the gear, subjobs, and merits that I chose were more than enough to make me unique.

Ultimately when you make it so that decisions at the beginning of the game affect what you can do, you're requiring that people start a new character if they set new goals. So it's not as if it necessarily makes you any more unique, because any player can then go and make another character more like yours. And I've known several who did... but they also weren't very happy about it.

If you want to look at it mathematically, it allows you to make your character more unique. When there are no statistical advantages, every combination of race and class is equally feasible. When there are statistical advantages, options like Galka mages tend to come off the table for most people. Most people choose a Tarutaru mage, and now your Tarutaru mage isn't unique at all.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Nov 24 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, for the record-- not trying to be argumentative. Just bored and enjoying the discussion.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Nov 24 2012 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Also, for the record-- not trying to be argumentative. Just bored and enjoying the discussion.


Always. I love it myself.

In respect to all arguments I can take it or leave it. I know what classes/jobs I typically gravitate towards. But specialization will happen to dedicated players. If you want to be a recurring member of endgame your peers are going to figure out what you're best at.

EX:

"We know you've been trying to boost your SAM Shin, but we really need your THF this week(s)."

Which in itself isn't horrible. Nice to know your LS counts on you. But specialization hits most players eventually. Whether we encourage it or not


*edit I should say many players. Not most.

Edited, Nov 24th 2012 6:04pm by ShindaUsagi
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#21 Nov 24 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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I like the points you have made kachi, it makes sense. I guess I just like making a hard decision an planning ahead, im stuck with how ffxi was I guess lol. But you definitely opened up my view with the new system. By the way sorry for any misspelling English is not my first language, I am Brazilian.
#22 Nov 24 2012 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest, sometimes I like the planning part of the game more than actually playing it. I spent an awful lot of time playing around with builds and such, and figuring out fun ways I could play, though it was often unnecessarily hard to create those builds. I actually had several builds for my Samurai and a lot of the best gear in the game (at the time) for those builds. If that gear hadn't been so hard to get, I could have spent more time enjoying the chance to play around with them. I guess that's why I turned to imagining a lot of the builds... it was easier than actually trying to make them happen.

I was fortunate that the race I chose ended up being a good choice for Samurai. If, for example, they added some new magic class that was a great subjob for Samurai, but was dependent on MP, then I would have felt a bit screwed.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Nov 24 2012 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Turok1985 wrote:
It takes away the ability of you being unique, when you can become anything anytime you want, with the same stats as everyone else. That is only separated by gear skill. It's disappointing to me but not a deal breaker.


FTFY


Edited, Nov 25th 2012 12:12am by ChaChaJaJa
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#24 Nov 25 2012 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
I play similar to you Kachi. I'm all about "I want these STR boots and this W. Skill Acc. Helmet and <insert other stats here>" And I will dedicate months if I have to in order to get the gear. I'd kill all our stuff and only lot for one item at a time in my HNM shell to make sure I got it as soon as possible. The planning my build, setting plans into motion for it, and then finally getting it and checking parse stuff was so much fun in XI.
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#25 Nov 25 2012 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, that's why I ended up quitting. Getting the stuff wasn't fun because I had to grind the things over and over and over. I'm not that much of a *********.

Also: Never kick my dog.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#26 Nov 25 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Actually, that's why I ended up quitting. Getting the stuff wasn't fun because I had to grind the things over and over and over. I'm not that much of a *********.

Also: Never kick my dog.


Yes I suppose I used to have some of those qualities. I remember getting yelled at around 5am while camping Tiamat or Fafnir. My wife and I almost had one of these moments

Also, ding for post 100 ^^
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#27 Nov 25 2012 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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I'm siding with Kachi on this one.

I think the differentiation in race is good in theory, but then it comes to the point when players are punished for how their character looks. If player A and player B were applying for an endgame group and player B is a Lalafell BLM and player A was the same geared BLM but a Roegadyn, player B would be chosen, and I think that's kind of unfair.

Players should choose a birthmark or something for their character that determines stat bonuses (or use XIV's Guardians for that) but it shouldn't be tied to how a character looks, in my opinion.
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#28 Nov 25 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm even fine with the starting stat sliders that many games have historically used, where you get a few points to put into the stats of your choice. It doesn't really do anything for me personally, but it doesn't irk me. To be honest, I think doing so, while circumventing some of those problems, also takes away from the "meaning" that those racial stats are supposed add to the game world. And I've even known games to start with racial stats but give you some points to spend on other stats, sort of combining the two systems. So you could make a Tarutaru that was more melee-oriented, or you could further increase their magical abilities. To me, that's just an extension of the problem that was already described (where you still have to pick a Tarutaru with magical stats to create an ideal mage), but I guess it's a compromise.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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