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#1 Nov 25 2012 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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#2 Nov 25 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the link, quite a few new things for me anyway.
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#3 Nov 25 2012 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Rewards are decided based not on party, but individual performance


I recognize that they're borrowing this system from GW2-- I hope they don't copy it exactly. It's fine the way they require a certain threshold of involvement for "gold" rewards, but as far as drops go, there's a lot of speculation that your performance is evaluated beyond that to determine the drops that you get. Since I play one of the lowest-damage classes, I basically never get rare drops.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#4 Nov 25 2012 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Rewards are decided based not on party, but individual performance


I recognize that they're borrowing this system from GW2-- I hope they don't copy it exactly. It's fine the way they require a certain threshold of involvement for "gold" rewards, but as far as drops go, there's a lot of speculation that your performance is evaluated beyond that to determine the drops that you get. Since I play one of the lowest-damage classes, I basically never get rare drops.



Could you explain that for me? I Like the idea of a WAR or something but in reality I am a WHM or a BRD. I like to get dirty but want to be the support for the group, which is important too. So how would that effect me, or you as you have said? I don't quite get it and I would hate to get shafted because I wanted to be a BRD. Thanks.

And yes, most of that was new for me too so I wanted to share ti with everyone.
#5 Nov 25 2012 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Basically these events are open to everyone in the area. There will be an objective given like "Kill the Giant," and once the giant is completed, everyone who participated will get a bronze, silver, or gold with some XP and currency rewards. Getting a gold isn't difficult if you actually contribute at all (in fact sometimes I leave well before the event is over and still get a gold).

I haven't done a lot of reading on the drop system, so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the more you contribute to the battle, the more likely you are to get rarer items. (In GW2, they use the color-coded rarity system, and I basically never get yellows and oranges from events.) However, all the classes in GW2 are basically damage-dealing classes with varying levels of support. My class does very poor direct damage, and there's a question of whether support actions contribute to enough to your reward ranking or at all.

I'm fine with those systems in general as long as they're mindful of things like that. Given it's FF, I'm sure they will be (they even used a similar system for ranking Ballista players, iirc). But my preference is that there is an easily-reached top tier for participation, and that the challenge lies in defeating the encounter. This presents a significant design challenge, however, when the number of participating players is fluid.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#6 Nov 25 2012 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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In other words, I hope they don't both tier the loot table depending on your contribution, and also make it impossible to get to the top tier when you have other players who are able to contribute much "faster" based on their class.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#7 Nov 25 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
If I'm reading this correctly, does this mean there won't be any claim - HNM at all? Will all the most coveted gear be instance/dungeon based? I'm ok with that, I just want to know what I'm getting myself into come release.
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Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#8 Nov 25 2012 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I can't say, but I wouldn't think they'd remove them entirely. What this basically means is that there will probably be events similar to HNMs that aren't claim. Maybe they'll have a Fafnir that attacks as part of an area event and a different Fafnir that can be found "in the wild," and they may drop similar or different things. I know how much SE loves their wild HNMs though, so I can't imagine that they're gone entirely. I do recall them saying something long, long ago, about doing it both ways, though.

An important distinction about GW2 is that all the loot drops are pretty generic. A specific monster doesn't have Sword of Doom and Helmet of Thunder. They just drop random gear of varying rarity. I doubt SE will do this for FFXIV.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#9 Nov 25 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I doubt SE will do this for FFXIV.


Ignoring the constant comparison to GW2 despite SE has done this before in many of the MMOs they produced and published before GW2 was even in production...they have done this before in XIV, have you never fought an NM?
#10 Nov 25 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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In FFXIV? No, I quit well before getting to that point. You're telling me that NMs only drop generic gear and don't have specially assigned items like the Rare/EX items in FFXI?

Also, not sure which particular elements you're claiming that SE has done before GW2. I described a lot of features.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Nov 25 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Basically these events are open to everyone in the area. There will be an objective given like "Kill the Giant," and once the giant is completed, everyone who participated will get a bronze, silver, or gold with some XP and currency rewards. Getting a gold isn't difficult if you actually contribute at all (in fact sometimes I leave well before the event is over and still get a gold).

I haven't done a lot of reading on the drop system, so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the more you contribute to the battle, the more likely you are to get rarer items. (In GW2, they use the color-coded rarity system, and I basically never get yellows and oranges from events.) However, all the classes in GW2 are basically damage-dealing classes with varying levels of support. My class does very poor direct damage, and there's a question of whether support actions contribute to enough to your reward ranking or at all.

I'm fine with those systems in general as long as they're mindful of things like that. Given it's FF, I'm sure they will be (they even used a similar system for ranking Ballista players, iirc). But my preference is that there is an easily-reached top tier for participation, and that the challenge lies in defeating the encounter. This presents a significant design challenge, however, when the number of participating players is fluid.




Could this be like WotG in FFXI, Campaign Battles? Instead of or in addition to, EXP, you could get an item. The more you do for the defense, the higher the EXP you would earn. I suppose, swap out the EXP and add verity of Armor or Weapons and that sounds like what you have said here. Right? I don't feel like anyone would be able to do SO MUCH that they would be eligible for a SWEET item, unless they have the ability to build up "points" and spend them on an item.
#12 Nov 25 2012 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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This style of rewards based on contribution has been done in several different mmo-. To me this sounds like a combination between Rift with rewards being distributed much like in Warhammer. Sounds good to me tbh, especially since it sounded like there won't be any really awesome equipment for it, more like vanity gear and items that are related to the type of event that FATE was. As in chocobo escorts -> chocobo items etc.

Agree about contribution problems though, I for one want to play some type of healer/support type and I hope/think they will make sure that ways to contribute are balanced for all classes.

As for it being generic gear I doubt it, much like what Kachi said I think it will be like what they had in WAR where there were a set of items that could be obtained based on your rank.

Overall there was some nice information, I can't wait for more to come :)
#13 Nov 25 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Could this be like WotG in FFXI, Campaign Battles?


Yeah, very much like Campaign Battles. Not sure why I didn't think of that before, other than the large differences between the presentation of the two.

It's been forever since I've done those, but some of the main differences are that in GW2, there are tons of these in every area, and you don't have to talk to an NPC to join or collect your reward... it just happens automatically. Also, they're very easy to get to, seeing as you can warp to roughly a dozen places in any given zone. Mobility is much higher, in that you can almost always get to anywhere you'd need to be within three minutes. I can scarcely remember the rewards for participating in Campaign, other than XP and some sort of military equipment vendor system that you worked your way up through.

There are also definite similarities between the balance of support roles and offensive roles. Part of that problem is just inherent-- if you're tying it to numerical outputs, and you're designing encounters that may be more or less defense-oriented or require other tactics, some class is always going to have an advantage over others. I'd be just as happy with an "engagement" tracking system, where it's more related to players actively participating in the event than the numbers they put out.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Nov 26 2012 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
In FFXIV? No, I quit well before getting to that point. You're telling me that NMs only drop generic gear and don't have specially assigned items like the Rare/EX items in FFXI? .


The majority of regular NMs in XIV have a random pool of level range crafted gear ontop of their rare/ex drops, so chances are if you don't get your Loyalist's Bilaud (the R/EX item) you'll probably end up getting Velveteen Tights or an Aquamarine Ring or something else in the 30-45 range. This is the case with every XIV NM excluding the 'HNMs.'



#15 Nov 26 2012 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The majority of regular NMs in XIV have a random pool of level range crafted gear ontop of their rare/ex drops, so chances are if you don't get your Loyalist's Bilaud (the R/EX item) you'll probably end up getting Velveteen Tights or an Aquamarine Ring or something else in the 30-45 range. This is the case with every XIV NM excluding the 'HNMs.'


I think for most people, the presence of random gear is less a concern than the question of whether there are NM-exclusive R/EX drops at all. In GW2, there aren't... erego there is absolutely no reason to grindcamp a particular mob or instance, since it won't drop anything for you that you can't get anywhere else. But likewise, there isn't any particular feeling of achievement associated with beating "that dragon with the one sword." These are the differences I was trying to highlight.

Both systems have their advantage. In GW2, you simply play the game and enjoy the events for what they are. You can work towards your goals without having to participate in content that bores you. In FFXI, there's a stronger feedback system where the reward is directly related to overcoming a specific challenge, which makes the victory more rewarding.

Personally my preference is that NMs do drop exclusive gear, but that they aren't so ******* stingy about it as SE seems to like. If the FFXIV can come close to matching the quantity of content that GW2 has, while not leaning so hard on the "10% drop rate or less" pedal for valued rewards, the game will probably be in great shape.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Nov 26 2012 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
The majority of regular NMs in XIV have a random pool of level range crafted gear ontop of their rare/ex drops, so chances are if you don't get your Loyalist's Bilaud (the R/EX item) you'll probably end up getting Velveteen Tights or an Aquamarine Ring or something else in the 30-45 range. This is the case with every XIV NM excluding the 'HNMs.'


I think for most people, the presence of random gear is less a concern than the question of whether there are NM-exclusive R/EX drops at all. In GW2, there aren't... erego there is absolutely no reason to grindcamp a particular mob or instance, since it won't drop anything for you that you can't get anywhere else. But likewise, there isn't any particular feeling of achievement associated with beating "that dragon with the one sword." These are the differences I was trying to highlight.

Both systems have their advantage. In GW2, you simply play the game and enjoy the events for what they are. You can work towards your goals without having to participate in content that bores you. In FFXI, there's a stronger feedback system where the reward is directly related to overcoming a specific challenge, which makes the victory more rewarding.

Personally my preference is that NMs do drop exclusive gear, but that they aren't so @#%^ing stingy about it as SE seems to like. If the FFXIV can come close to matching the quantity of content that GW2 has, while not leaning so hard on the "10% drop rate or less" pedal for valued rewards, the game will probably be in great shape.


I'd like to see it similar to XI, but still different. I like the idea of fixing the drop rates, but only if they increase the difficulty by just a small amount. Not only that, but the NM's should scale up in difficulty along with updates, expansions, etc. Make it so that Fafnir and Nidhogg are relevant at all times and aren't easy-buttoned by the release of certain jobs and stronger gear from newer updates. I really like the thought of constantly having more strong NM's to kill, as opposed to having new trendy NM's and old ones that no one worries about anymore.
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#17 Nov 26 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I completely agree with making the monsters harder. I would much rather have a 100% drop rate on a monster that took me ten tries to beat (as long as it was because I did something better, rather than just getting lucky), than a 10% drop rate on a monster that I easily beat 10 times. That's just good game design in general, and a lot of what I didn't like about FFXI was the tendency to pace rewards with artificially low drop rates instead of just making the content harder to complete.

Now, having said that, FFXI painted itself into a bit of a corner with that tactic in that it made death penalties distinctly undesirable. In the reality of FFXI, it was very frustrating to lose over and over because it meant you were wasting a lot of time to recoup your losses in addition to having invested time in your failed attempts. But FFXIV's death penalty is a lot less severe than FFXI from what I understand.

Actually, if you look at the "boss-style" encounters of many successful franchises, you see these same principles in action. It's a really straightforward application of motivational psychology.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Nov 26 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Oh, I completely agree with making the monsters harder. I would much rather have a 100% drop rate on a monster that took me ten tries to beat (as long as it was because I did something better, rather than just getting lucky), than a 10% drop rate on a monster that I easily beat 10 times. That's just good game design in general, and a lot of what I didn't like about FFXI was the tendency to pace rewards with artificially low drop rates instead of just making the content harder to complete.

Now, having said that, FFXI painted itself into a bit of a corner with that tactic in that it made death penalties distinctly undesirable. In the reality of FFXI, it was very frustrating to lose over and over because it meant you were wasting a lot of time to recoup your losses in addition to having invested time in your failed attempts. But FFXIV's death penalty is a lot less severe than FFXI from what I understand.

Actually, if you look at the "boss-style" encounters of many successful franchises, you see these same principles in action. It's a really straightforward application of motivational psychology.


Absolutely. No need for any Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden difficulty (ok, maybe just one... Smiley: sly), but maybe make a group of monsters that start at Nidhogg difficulty and require more skilled/synced groups, rather than having monsters that simply require 18 people a long time to kill. Make it a battle of skill and endurance, not just endurance.
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#19 Nov 26 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Right, and oh, lest I forget, the encounters that weren't difficult, but took a long time to try. I absolutely hated all the artificial timers and bottlenecking to even try the fight... you're bound to be gypped. Either the fight is too easy making everything about the accomplishment an exercise in tedium, or the fight is too difficult and you have to start all over.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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