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#52 Nov 28 2012 at 10:11 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
lol youre joking right the stuff i listed not doing wasnt 90% of the content.. maybe 50% but not 90%... I mean for everything i DIDNT do I couldnt name 10 other things i DID do.

as for the things i didnt do... I had the skill and people wanting me to do those things.. I just never wanted too (as there was nothing i really wanted from them)... and i didnt have an endgame ls (thus not having to be "forced" to participate in stuff i dint want to) but other LSes who know of my skill would always invite me to certain events as a "free agent" that show I got stuff done... so yeah the only thing stopping me from doing those other things was myself


90% may have been an exaggeration, but you still missed out on most of the game. People slaved away for months leveling up jobs to be able to participate in the events you listed. It's your prerogative and I won't tell anyone how or what to play, I'm just curious what you spent your time in game doing and what exactly you were doing it for if not to participate in most of the content.

Hyanmen wrote:
Yes, the playerbase did not drop by more than a couple hundred thousand at best (and did not happen in 2004 but throughout 2005 and 06). I did not claim anything else.

I'm just saying I think it happened much later than you do. XI didn't start to dump subs until after WotG. There were still 400k subs just prior to the mini-expansions in '09.

Hyanmen wrote:
Expansion releases should increase the sub numbers for a while. More interesting question is how much sub numbers increased with MoP as opposed to previous expansions. That's a better indicator of the current trends.

Subs had fallen to around 9 mil following Cata and MoP pushed that number back above 10 mil.

IKickYoDog wrote:
Take SWToR; they spent what, $50 million just developing the game to the point of release? That was one of the largest budgets ever if my memory serves me right. And look how they did.

Your estimate seems very conservative to me. 60 mil(twice their budget for XI by the way) is what SE is estimated to have spent on XIV up to it's release. Considering they've operated the game for 2 years and have had to scrap the majority of what they spent all that money on, I wouldn't be surprised if XIV equaled the money spent developing SWtoR.

Edited, Nov 28th 2012 7:16pm by FilthMcNasty



i spent my time meriting and leveling.. I had every job at 75 fully merited with a capped exp buffer before i stopped playing.. after that my time was usually spent using the game as a glorified chatroom while waiting for the next piece of story content or hard CoP like mission to come around (doing all those Assualt missions in every rank without a guide was definitely a challenge) and basically it was good to know that i was versatile.. any job my group needed.. I had covered lol so yeah
#53 Nov 28 2012 at 10:57 PM Rating: Default
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SE has not spent 150-200 Million dollars on FFXIV, **** the 50 mil figure for FFXIV was never even official, we just made it up, and i seriously doubt it, since they basically said, cough up some subscription or we shut down :/
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#54 Nov 28 2012 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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You'd be surprised how much game development costs. Good devs aren't cheap. Neither are good artists, good musicians, or good writers. With a standard size preparation development team of 100 or so, their payroll is probably a million dollars a month. Add in equipment costs, building, heating, marketing, and the 300+ odd outsourced jobs once crunch time hits, and then multiple that by the several years they spent working on the game before its release. It's a hundred million easily for a big name game.

(Once a game is released, the 100 initial development staff are probably reduced down to 25 or so, with the remainder switched to the next project.)
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#55 Nov 29 2012 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
You'd be surprised how much game development costs. Good devs aren't cheap. Neither are good artists, good musicians, or good writers. With a standard size preparation development team of 100 or so, their payroll is probably a million dollars a month. Add in equipment costs, building, heating, marketing, and the 300+ odd outsourced jobs once crunch time hits, and then multiple that by the several years they spent working on the game before its release. It's a hundred million easily for a big name game.

^ this.

Development costs of XI were over 25 mil, so XIV could easily crack 50 mil in the 6ish years it took to develop. That's just up to the first launch. By the time ARR is finally released you'll be looking at 3 more years of development beyond initial launch. Project Rapture will be a decade old.

125 people being paid an average annual salary of 80k would cost the company 10 mil. That does not account for all the rest of the stuff Catwho said. That also does not account for more things which could be added to her list, the most obvious being additional time and effort put toward porting between the two platforms. That also does not account for the costs to run the game for the majority of it's lifespan while it was free... I could keep going here, but I think the point has been made.

If people are still skeptic about the skyrocketing costs associated with game development, you need look no further than the rather large locks on the doors of scores of game development companies who were forced to cease operations.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#56 Nov 29 2012 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
But back to your point. The same rules apply here. WoW is now a 10 year old game. That alone can have a signifigant impact in it's return value, rather than the current trends. It's hard to make statments like that when games like WoW have stood as exceptions to trends for quite some time. Truth of the matter is, we're in fresh territory. There simply isn't an established market trend for an aging giant like this, though some have been established with other MMO tities that have risen and then fallen to a plateau.


WoW ages EXACTLY like FFXI did, simply multiplied by 20x.

First comes the growth phase, then the game becomes stagnant, then starts shrinking.

This happens regardless of the game in question, and can not be reversed. For XI, the stagnant phase began when WoW was released.

And just like Blizzard today, SE did not go out of their way to stop the trend by all costs. They started making a new game, because it simply is a better use of their money.

WoW is not a 10 year old game.

Quote:
Subs had fallen to around 9 mil following Cata and MoP pushed that number back above 10 mil.


The relevant question is, how much did the release of Cata boost sub numbers and how does that compare to what MoP has done?

It hardly matters if MoP boosted the sub numbers momentarily like Cata did if the end result is <9million players following it. The trend is still downwards.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 2:37pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 2:38pm by Hyanmen
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#57 Nov 29 2012 at 6:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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One thing people seldom understand is the real cost of employment. I can speak for the UK and should imagine that the US and rest of world isn't very different, but employers pay a lot of tax on their employees- and that is on TOP of what they pay out of their own salary. The actual cost of employing someone on £40,000 a year and in fact cost you the employer nearer £70,000 in additional taxes and insurance/pension requirements.

Employing staff is expensive business. Employing the best costs an absolute fortune.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 7:39am by Kordain - Bloody rogue semicolons!

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 7:40am by Kordain
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#58 Nov 29 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
WoW ages EXACTLY like FFXI did, simply multiplied by 20x.

The relevant question is, how much did the release of Cata boost sub numbers and how does that compare to what MoP has done?
It hardly matters if MoP boosted the sub numbers momentarily like Cata did if the end result is <9million players following it. The trend is still downwards.

The problem with your question is that Cata followed WotLK which was well received and people purchased Cata based on the expectation that it would be as good or better. It wasn't. MoP on the other hand followed Cata which put it at a disadvantage out of the gate. Despite that, the subscription rate has increased steadily.

It's easier to secure more sales and subscriptions following a great expansion release compared to a mediocre expansion. The comparison of Cata and MoP doesn't work well for that reason.

Also, I disagree that WoW ages like XI did. We just reached the 8 year anniversary of WoW this month. 8 years into it's lifespan, XI had dropped nearly half of it's peak subs. WoW shed less than 80% of it's peak subscriber level so I'd be inclined to say that it's aging better than XI is. It's possible and highly probable that SoA will bring back a fair amount of these players, but after more than half a decade of no expansion... it's going to be about as hard fought a battle as the one facing XIV.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#59 Nov 29 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
The problem with your question is that Cata followed WotLK which was well received and people purchased Cata based on the expectation that it would be as good or better. It wasn't. MoP on the other hand followed Cata which put it at a disadvantage out of the gate. Despite that, the subscription rate has increased steadily.

It's easier to secure more sales and subscriptions following a great expansion release compared to a mediocre expansion. The comparison of Cata and MoP doesn't work well for that reason.


I don't see a problem there. Was Cata not well received? I remember it being well received when it came out. Though, I also remember that after the launch there was not much going for it, which probably did not help it's reputation (as being worse than WotLK). And for that reason, too, I don't think that writing MoP as a step up from Cata is at all set in stone at this time.

Quote:
Also, I disagree that WoW ages like XI did. We just reached the 8 year anniversary of WoW this month. 8 years into it's lifespan, XI had dropped nearly half of it's peak subs. WoW shed less than 80% of it's peak subscriber level so I'd be inclined to say that it's aging better than XI is. It's possible and highly probable that SoA will bring back a fair amount of these players, but after more than half a decade of no expansion... it's going to be about as hard fought a battle as the one facing XIV.


I hope they do, as their sub numbers vs. the effort being made is not even close to that of XI's.

Though I don't see you really disagreeing with me. All games peak, become stagnant and start shrinking. It's not a matter of who the developer is.

Frankly I'm just stating this because some people think if SE put more effort into the stagnant and shrinking XI something would have been different. lolno.

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#60 Nov 29 2012 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I don't see a problem there. Was Cata not well received?


Well it's impossible to speak on behalf of everyone, but the answer for most people was no. I do know a few people who really liked Cata, but they were people who had other classes they were looking for an excuse to level. A large part of the content in that expansion was the redesigning of the zones and the bazillion new quests that were added, the majority of which was for leveling.

If you already figured out what class you wanted to level and had it at the cap then you missed a lot of the content that Cata brought. Almost everyone I know, save for those few, thought BC and WotLK were much better. I guess you're right that time will tell, but if it's any indication... even the developers felt like Cata wasn't up to snuff.

Hyanmen wrote:
Frankly I'm just stating this because some people think if SE put more effort into the stagnant and shrinking XI something would have been different. lolno.

If SE had put more effort in when it was needed, i.e. making a proper expansion that actually expands on the game and making them regularly, I have no doubt that XI would have maintained a lot of subs. People don't like waiting for 3 years to have an expansion's storyline develop. People also don't like waiting 6 years between expansions. Adjusting a few abilities every 3 months wasn't cutting.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#61 Nov 30 2012 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If SE had put more effort in when it was needed, i.e. making a proper expansion that actually expands on the game and making them regularly, I have no doubt that XI would have maintained a lot of subs. People don't like waiting for 3 years to have an expansion's storyline develop. People also don't like waiting 6 years between expansions. Adjusting a few abilities every 3 months wasn't cutting.


The underlined part doesn't make any sense. According to who more effort was needed? You could say that if Blizzard had put more effort in when it was needed, they would still have 12 million players. The thing is, neither Blizz nor SE felt this was necessary - and even though people can make the case that SE doesn't know how to run a business, who would say the same about Blizzard? The fact is that it's not simply SE being SE this time, it's a business doing what businesses do.

Of course people don't like the fact, so they quit. Both in XI and WoW. That simply is not a proper reason yet to act on something as a business.
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#62 Nov 30 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If SE had put more effort in when it was needed, i.e. making a proper expansion that actually expands on the game and making them regularly, I have no doubt that XI would have maintained a lot of subs. People don't like waiting for 3 years to have an expansion's storyline develop. People also don't like waiting 6 years between expansions. Adjusting a few abilities every 3 months wasn't cutting.


The underlined part doesn't make any sense. According to who more effort was needed?

General consensus is that if you create and implement content on a regular basis, people don't get bored and leave. If SE had focused on creating new content post 2007, meaning an expansion that actually expands(amazing iknorite) on the game instead of recycling old zones, they'd probably have kept closer to the 80% of the playerbase that WoW enjoys.

Hyanmen wrote:
You could say that if Blizzard had put more effort in when it was needed, they would still have 12 million players.

I can, and I do. If Cataclysm had focused more on endgame content, the content that most of their playerbase was looking forward to, they'd probably have kept a lot of the several million people who left.

Hyanmen wrote:
The thing is, neither Blizz nor SE felt this was necessary

I beg to differ. Both companies are releasing expansions. As you said, time will tell if they are accepted as good or bad, but the fact that they're making an attempt to bring new content to old players is a pretty solid case for them feeling it's necessary.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#63 Dec 01 2012 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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""However, when the original FFXIV was in development, the goal of the project was simply to make a game that was different from Final Fantasy XI. Yoshida feels that the creators didn't recognize that the global standard of MMOs had been significantly raised in recent years. He would have suggested a different path for the game—one that mirrored FFXI's own creation. "I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy. So, because they tried only to make something that was 'different from FFXI,' they ended up with not much of anything."

"They should have said, 'Hey you, go play WoW for a year [for inspiration].'" "

Some random thoughts...

FFXIV should have either made a better FFXI and borrowed from WoW. They did neither.

FFXI ironically got better over time with FoV and GoV. And I assumed that was the direction FFXIV was headed. It wasn't.

The idea of public quests all the way back from Warhammer to Rift were big new ideas that FFXIV should have incorporated as well.

As far as GW2 is concerned it was a breath of fresh air, but lacks depth. It was very fun and was very innovative in some respects (hiding the grind especially) has some interesting and mostly positive social interactions; no ganking, no KSing etc...

And unfortunately making another game full of depth, like FFXI, would be suicide.

So well, what else is there? What should ARR be? For one an experience. The best games whether they be single player or MMOs need to be memorable for their social interactions, their landscapes, their relation to their character (very important and what FFXI did best by having one character and having to pay for alts) and their ultimate immersion. Gameplay and abilities factor in there, but for me they aren't that important unless they are so completely horrible/disjointed , they distract from the gameplay. In fact I like in FFXI and in part GW2 where there are few abilities that actually mean something, rather than a complicated smattering of redundant abilities.

I'm again excited for ARR and hope that it does way better then the org FFXIV had. It looks like Yoshi and his crew have been working very hard and I guess we'll have to just wait and see...
#64 Dec 01 2012 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
As far as GW2 is concerned it was a breath of fresh air, but lacks depth. It was very fun and was very innovative in some respects (hiding the grind especially) has some interesting and mostly positive social interactions; no ganking, no KSing etc...

And unfortunately making another game full of depth, like FFXI, would be suicide.


I agree on GW2; however, I think making with the depth of FFXI is exactly what they need to do. Their failure with FFXI was that they tuned progression to appeal to a very hardcore crowd. If they had tuned it to appeal more to casual players, it probably would have been an extremely successful game. They probably could have even got the jump on WoW had they done it from release.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Dec 02 2012 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
As far as GW2 is concerned it was a breath of fresh air, but lacks depth. It was very fun and was very innovative in some respects (hiding the grind especially) has some interesting and mostly positive social interactions; no ganking, no KSing etc...

And unfortunately making another game full of depth, like FFXI, would be suicide.


I agree on GW2; however, I think making with the depth of FFXI is exactly what they need to do. Their failure with FFXI was that they tuned progression to appeal to a very hardcore crowd. If they had tuned it to appeal more to casual players, it probably would have been an extremely successful game. They probably could have even got the jump on WoW had they done it from release.



I agree with depth in terms of content, story and varied locales, but depth was also created through time sinks and barriers to progression. That time spent in those sinks ironically created a love/hate forced interaction with other players that actually made personal (gamer to gamer) relationships flourish. That community therefore IMO will not and cannot be re-created. Maybe I just mean community when I talk about depth but I think they run hand in hand...

Spending long nights through "forced" leveling with JP players created bonds that carried server-wide. Interactions sans-linkshell; your reputation carried as well. And in a game like GW2 you're practically anonymous.

Yes, when FoV and GoV sped up progression and allowed more equitable allowance of progression for the "casuals" it was a more "fun" game. But that sense of community was diluted.

I've always wanted more of a balance and I'd really love the feeling of another FFXI; I would like to see it done, I just don't think it can. Accessibility and depth and community seems like one of those "pick two" conundrums. FFXIV should have just been WoW with FF lore; it would have been wildly popular, again, I just think that "magic community" (which really, in part, came from those timesinks) wouldn't exist.
#66 Dec 02 2012 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Well said Kierk, I agree. It's a double-edged sword but unfortunately it's unavoidable with the way current games are being designed. The only real lasting interaction I've had in current MMOs are with guild members. I miss the days of having a rep and an identity as opposed to being just another anonymous player, but on the other hand, the constant flow of accessible content is good. Like I said, double-edged sword. The system is in dire need of evolution.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2012 2:18am by BrokenFox
#67 Dec 02 2012 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
I also agree Kierk. Like you said, I miss the bonding experiences with people in FFXI. You start leveling a new job, and you realize you're in parties with the same 5 or 6 people all the time because you're progressing equally. Those people become friends from Qufim till Colibri and you end up inviting them to your endgame linkshell, where they flourish with your group. I made so many friends just lvl grinding or doing semi-static endgame events.

Now, let us not get too warm and fuzzy... I also remember leveling new jobs and being stuck with the same morons that thought DNC/PLD was a legit move and it frustrated the **** out of me, but those were definitely the minority. Those people usually became the bonding experience for others in the love/hate system you describe.

I always loved the HNM linkshell reputations. Seeing the same people over and over, talking smack, then seeing a shell break and seeing how the crew was dispersed. Everyone trying to get the same 10 players that were legit and hesitant to accept the other 20 that were new or known to Ridill >> /droplinkshell. It made people accountable for their actions, even in an anonymous world.

I really hope that SE finds a good balance for the game regarding hardcores and casuals. By no means do I want to spend months leveling a few jobs to cap, but I also don't want to join an LS for chat and have to /shout to get crews for EVERY SINGLE EVENT due to the casual nature of the game. Let's build a community and create a place people want to join, not just a place people go to.
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#68 Dec 02 2012 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I agree with depth in terms of content, story and varied locales, but depth was also created through time sinks and barriers to progression. That time spent in those sinks ironically created a love/hate forced interaction with other players that actually made personal (gamer to gamer) relationships flourish. That community therefore IMO will not and cannot be re-created. Maybe I just mean community when I talk about depth but I think they run hand in hand...

Spending long nights through "forced" leveling with JP players created bonds that carried server-wide. Interactions sans-linkshell; your reputation carried as well. And in a game like GW2 you're practically anonymous.

Yes, when FoV and GoV sped up progression and allowed more equitable allowance of progression for the "casuals" it was a more "fun" game. But that sense of community was diluted.

I've always wanted more of a balance and I'd really love the feeling of another FFXI; I would like to see it done, I just don't think it can. Accessibility and depth and community seems like one of those "pick two" conundrums. FFXIV should have just been WoW with FF lore; it would have been wildly popular, again, I just think that "magic community" (which really, in part, came from those timesinks) wouldn't exist.


Ah, well I certainly don't consider the timesinks a form of "depth," but your point is taken. However, as for accessibility and depth being at odds, I disagree.

First of all, let's not delude ourselves about the community in FFXI. Yes, it's THERE, which is more that can be said about many contemporary MMOs, but it was also made rather frustrating due to all the tension these high-stakes gaming practices caused. These things don't go hand in hand (fortunately).

It's entirely possible to create a system of interdependence without making the game a machine of masochism. FFXI did not reward players for working together--it forced them to (and frankly, it could have done it better by just requiring players to create a full party to be eligible for the rewards). And not just work together, but actually create organizations, outline rules and compensation structures... all but start up a small business. GW2, conversely, doesn't even reward players for working together.

And when I say "rewarded for working together" I don't mean that you simply have a proportional increase in killing time or success rate. It doesn't require a great deal of ingenuity to make cooperative elements more rewarding (like fixing skillchains, for instance). There are even plenty of ways they can encourage unity and a sense of overcoming a collective struggle without sacrificing an accessible level of progression. Honestly, I just had four ideas right now. I don't necessarily think I'm a creative genius because I can create a solution to a simple problem. But I'm sure to most designers, it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when you're bombarded with ideas. They try new stuff that bombs (but if they had thought about it, would have anticipated it bombing)... ok, I'm just ranting now. I don't have a lot of faith in the average game designer, clearly.

Point being, community isn't just a byproduct of an unforgiving system of progression. It comes from a deliberate attempt to reward players for working together, rather than forcing them to or pitting them against each other. Which for as much as FFXI rewarded players for working together, it just as well did the latter.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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