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Black Shroud IIFollow

#1 Nov 29 2012 at 4:17 AM Rating: Good
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Always a verbose critic, I have to admit a direct comparison between the old and new versions of the Black Shroud are an eye-opener. Judge by yourselves.

Old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz_xWM5cdQQ&hd=1
New
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n96NDin_wqM&hd=1
#2 Nov 29 2012 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Big turtle only 5sec into game footage.. I'm in love already. Pending further viewing of the video.


I like that video. Thanks.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 9:05am by WFOAssassin
#3 Nov 29 2012 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I can finally feel the warm light at the end of the tunnel. Looks very nice. I might be getting a little excited.
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#4 Nov 29 2012 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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It's the first time I've been able to hear the music fairly well in one of these videos. It reminds me of something I might hear from X or XIII. It has that "Final Fantasy" feel to it in my opinion. I've heard the Uematsu is going to have less(if anything) to do with the music for ARR. Is this true or am I being trolled? I hope I'm being trolled...
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#5 Nov 29 2012 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I've heard the Uematsu is going to have less(if anything) to do with the music for ARR. Is this true or am I being trolled? I hope I'm being trolled...

You're nor. Uematsu inquestinably was a master for many, many years, but what he composed for FFXIV so far was not overly
impressive by his standards; possibly because he had to do so much in such a short time. Also, please remember that many of
the (arguably, but I think I'm in the majority here) most memorable tracks of FFXI (Zi'Tah Gustaberg), were not his, although
Ronfaure was (surprise; I just found out now). I am hopeful that ARR will comprise a diverse set of different tunes that fit the
respective setting, more so than a set of constistent but unfitting pieces by a pro hastened to deliver quantity over quality.
#6 Nov 29 2012 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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It's been confirmed that "Answers" will play a role in the new story (which was Uematsu's composition)-

Also a dev post from Masayoshi Soken (XIV's new composer) said that some of the themes from 1.0 will return in some form. I just hope "Twilight over Thanalan" returns as just a cutscene song. It was too inappropriate for a zone theme.

And chocobo themes and victory themes, they'll probably make appearances, and they were Uematsu's compositions.
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#7 Nov 29 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Reminds me of FFXII, awesome. Cannot wait for this to be released. Looks better with every video.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 2:56pm by BrokenFox
#8 Nov 29 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to admit, that second video took my breath away for a second. What an incredible difference. I couldn't skip through the first video fast enough, and the second had my attention from beginning to end.

Quote:
I've heard the Uematsu is going to have less(if anything) to do with the music for ARR. Is this true or am I being trolled? I hope I'm being trolled...


I've been saying this since before FFXIV was in testing, but this doesn't make me that sad. Uematsu did a lot of the classics when music was put on midi tracks, but he's not really equipped to score things for today's games. He doesn't have any formal composition training. He's expensive, and his strength is in catchy melodies, not the atmospheric music that MMOs require. If you want a catchy two minute track played over and over and over in your MMO, he'd be a good choice.

And that's not just to do with him as much as the need to have multiple composers for a good MMO score. Composing good music is difficult and time-consuming. It's frequently a mathematical puzzle. It's not normally this simple thing where you get a nice tune in your head and then record it in an afternoon. And even good music gets boring if you're stuck with it for too long. So I think it's really important when scoring an MMO that you have a number of composers who can produce lengthy, quality, ambient music tracks.

As much as I love a lot of his music, I don't think Uematsu should score most of the game. He's just not right for the job. He's a great hammer, but an MMO is best served by a large assortment of screwdrivers. Of course, not that I don't want him to contribute to the score--I just don't have any illusions about him being able to produce a quality score for the entire game all by his lonesome.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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#9 Nov 29 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Uematsu's a genius, but I'm fine with him sharing the role with other composers. It'll add different flavors to the game, which is needed in a game as large as this. No doubt he'll come up with some memorable tracks like he always does.
#10 Nov 29 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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I think Uematsu's compositions should be kept to the battle themes, serious cutscene music, raid bosses, things of that nature. Soken is great for the ambient zone tracks.
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#11 Nov 29 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Mizuta, Soken, Hamauzu... SE's got no shortage of great composers.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 4:31pm by BrokenFox
#12 Nov 29 2012 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
I think Uematsu's compositions should be kept to the battle themes, serious cutscene music, raid bosses, things of that nature. Soken is great for the ambient zone tracks.


I agree with this assessment.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Nov 29 2012 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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Why don't their feet move when they change direction...

:(

It has a very Guild Wars or WoW feel to it. I like those games, however. Too bad they're not going in a different direction but I really can't complain.

The music, however, is absolutely beautiful!
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#14 Nov 29 2012 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
Why don't their feet move when they change direction...

:(

It has a very Guild Wars or WoW feel to it. I like those games, however. Too bad they're not going in a different direction but I really can't complain.

The music, however, is absolutely beautiful!


I'm assuming since it's alpha those animations haven't been implemented yet. I almost hate to say it because we were burned by 1.0 but in this case I think it being an alpha video is a decent excuse. Considering how polished it is already I'd say it's forgivable. I alpha tested project Sparta (later Age of Empires Online) and it was brutally basic in comparison.
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#15 Nov 29 2012 at 8:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well I stand corrected, reading on the General Discussion forum over on the lodestone, it appears certain animations were removed as a deliberate decision. Sounds like they may or may not be back, but that they have larger fish to fry than this right now. We'll have to see how things move along with the rest of the alpha, beta, and finally release. Lots of time between now and then.
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#16 Nov 29 2012 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Well I stand corrected, reading on the General Discussion forum over on the lodestone, it appears certain animations were removed as a deliberate decision. Sounds like they may or may not be back, but that they have larger fish to fry than this right now. We'll have to see how things move along with the rest of the alpha, beta, and finally release. Lots of time between now and then.


That's actually disappointing. Forgivable I guess, but disappointing. It's missing that certain polished feel the old animation had. Now I'm wondering what other animations were cut.
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#17 Nov 30 2012 at 1:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I may be totally imagining it, but I thought I read that they were removing some animations for testing only.

Quote:
It has a very Guild Wars or WoW feel to it. I like those games, however. Too bad they're not going in a different direction but I really can't complain.


In the sense that the environments are now actually interesting and hearken to a very detailed high-fantasy world, I agree. However, FFXIV's execution is much more realistic, and I've always vastly preferred the camera angles for some reason. I also prefer the more limited way in which your character interacts with the terrain. I know a lot of players want to be able to jump up a mountainside, but that kind of cartoon physics doesn't work as well in FF. When I'm out walking in wilderness environments, the places that my character is willing to go are the same kinds of places I would go. The places that they can't go are the places that I wouldn't. In other games, you can go anywhere, even places where a sensible character wouldn't go (and again, I know for a lot of players that's a plus).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Nov 30 2012 at 4:23 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
Wint wrote:
Well I stand corrected, reading on the General Discussion forum over on the lodestone, it appears certain animations were removed as a deliberate decision. Sounds like they may or may not be back, but that they have larger fish to fry than this right now. We'll have to see how things move along with the rest of the alpha, beta, and finally release. Lots of time between now and then.


That's actually disappointing. Forgivable I guess, but disappointing. It's missing that certain polished feel the old animation had. Now I'm wondering what other animations were cut.


I hope they do make a return at some point. The one thing I really did love about 1.0 was the animations. Characters had a fantastic weighty feel the way they'd lean into runs, skip short when stopping quick etc. I think the only thing I didn't like was how my Highland type Hume had the same girly animations as babby lowlander Humes :>
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#19 Nov 30 2012 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I have to admit, that second video took my breath away for a second. What an incredible difference. I couldn't skip through the first video fast enough, and the second had my attention from beginning to end.

Quote:
I've heard the Uematsu is going to have less(if anything) to do with the music for ARR. Is this true or am I being trolled? I hope I'm being trolled...


I've been saying this since before FFXIV was in testing, but this doesn't make me that sad. Uematsu did a lot of the classics when music was put on midi tracks, but he's not really equipped to score things for today's games. He doesn't have any formal composition training. He's expensive, and his strength is in catchy melodies, not the atmospheric music that MMOs require. If you want a catchy two minute track played over and over and over in your MMO, he'd be a good choice.

And that's not just to do with him as much as the need to have multiple composers for a good MMO score. Composing good music is difficult and time-consuming. It's frequently a mathematical puzzle. It's not normally this simple thing where you get a nice tune in your head and then record it in an afternoon. And even good music gets boring if you're stuck with it for too long. So I think it's really important when scoring an MMO that you have a number of composers who can produce lengthy, quality, ambient music tracks.

As much as I love a lot of his music, I don't think Uematsu should score most of the game. He's just not right for the job. He's a great hammer, but an MMO is best served by a large assortment of screwdrivers. Of course, not that I don't want him to contribute to the score--I just don't have any illusions about him being able to produce a quality score for the entire game all by his lonesome.


Not really. The vast majority of VG composers don't have formal training either but they still produce immensely great soundtracks.

The problem with FFXIV 1.0's soundtrack is that it flat out didn't fit the game. The tracks themselves are actually really well done both thematically and in terms of presentation. The issue is that unlike his former offline games where he's involved in the process and can see what the shape of the game is going to be, and when the soundtrack was finished (before alpha even *started* and zones weren't even completed) he was flying blindly.

Flying blindly is what reduced the soundtrack to "Meh" standards. Lost Odyssey's shown the man can progress and mature with a completely different feel to his music and still be enjoyable. While I couldn't be bothered to finish the game, The Last Story's title screen theme showed he hasn't lost any chops on emotive feeling either.

Kachi wrote:
So I think it's really important when scoring an MMO that you have a number of composers who can produce lengthy, quality, ambient music tracks.


Incorrect.

FFXI still has perhaps the single best soundtrack of any MMO in existance and they aren't ambient tracks by any stretch of the imagination. There's a solid thematic, cohesive theme that exists with singular and modular melodic content. Ronfaure is still one of the most gorgeous pieces of music I've ever heard from a video game (Uematsu). RoZ and beyond showed that MMO music can lend the atmosphere of ambience but still have a definable and catchy melody.

WoW has ambient music soundtracks: they're absolutely terrible and utterly forgettable. AoC had an ambient music soundtrack: terrible and forgettable. Its follows on with almost every other MMO (and even most games in general nowadays) that ambient music doesn't really have lasting appeal because it's there simply to have something to fill the silence -- it's not designed to evoke recognition.
#20 Nov 30 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kordain wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
Wint wrote:
Well I stand corrected, reading on the General Discussion forum over on the lodestone, it appears certain animations were removed as a deliberate decision. Sounds like they may or may not be back, but that they have larger fish to fry than this right now. We'll have to see how things move along with the rest of the alpha, beta, and finally release. Lots of time between now and then.


That's actually disappointing. Forgivable I guess, but disappointing. It's missing that certain polished feel the old animation had. Now I'm wondering what other animations were cut.


I hope they do make a return at some point. The one thing I really did love about 1.0 was the animations. Characters had a fantastic weighty feel the way they'd lean into runs, skip short when stopping quick etc. I think the only thing I didn't like was how my Highland type Hume had the same girly animations as babby lowlander Humes :>


So do I. I dug up the original quote from one of the mods over on the official forums:

Rukkirii wrote:

While the animations were nice, the development team's number one focus in A Realm Reborn is on gameplay so even though they were nice animations, the team made the decision to remove them.
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#21 Nov 30 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Always a verbose critic, I have to admit a direct comparison between the old and new versions of the Black Shroud are an eye-opener. Judge by yourselves.

Old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz_xWM5cdQQ&hd=1
New
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n96NDin_wqM&hd=1


I get cold sweats watching the old...
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#22 Nov 30 2012 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really. The vast majority of VG composers don't have formal training either but they still produce immensely great soundtracks.

The problem with FFXIV 1.0's soundtrack is that it flat out didn't fit the game. The tracks themselves are actually really well done both thematically and in terms of presentation. The issue is that unlike his former offline games where he's involved in the process and can see what the shape of the game is going to be, and when the soundtrack was finished (before alpha even *started* and zones weren't even completed) he was flying blindly.

Flying blindly is what reduced the soundtrack to "Meh" standards. Lost Odyssey's shown the man can progress and mature with a completely different feel to his music and still be enjoyable. While I couldn't be bothered to finish the game, The Last Story's title screen theme showed he hasn't lost any chops on emotive feeling either.


Quote:
Incorrect.

FFXI still has perhaps the single best soundtrack of any MMO in existance and they aren't ambient tracks by any stretch of the imagination. There's a solid thematic, cohesive theme that exists with singular and modular melodic content. Ronfaure is still one of the most gorgeous pieces of music I've ever heard from a video game (Uematsu). RoZ and beyond showed that MMO music can lend the atmosphere of ambience but still have a definable and catchy melody.

WoW has ambient music soundtracks: they're absolutely terrible and utterly forgettable. AoC had an ambient music soundtrack: terrible and forgettable. Its follows on with almost every other MMO (and even most games in general nowadays) that ambient music doesn't really have lasting appeal because it's there simply to have something to fill the silence -- it's not designed to evoke recognition.


I'm having a difficult time reconciling your two arguments. On one, you point out that most video game composers don't have any formal training (which I'm not sure how true that is), and then on the other, you point out that most video game composers don't do a good job. So... I agree? But I disagree with your conclusions. First of all, Uematsu is simply not strong to me in producing the kind of music needed for an MMO. That's not to say that he hasn't done it... but it's a pretty short list of expositions.

Secondly, we can quibble over my use of the term ambient music, but when I say that a track needs to be ambient, I don't mean that it can't be an orchestral composition. There are a great many orchestral compositions with an ambient quality that also evoke great feeling. While Ronfaure was a great piece of music, it also clocks in at a scant five minutes of music. Someone who spends an hour in the zone hears it 12 times. And this is where an ambient break would have not only given the song a break, but extended the track significantly and improved the atmosphere of the area.

Also, while starting your arguments with things like "Not really," and "Incorrect," may help you to feel as though you are conveying an expertise in your opinion (or maybe that's really just the way you talk), to me it just reads as you being rude and dismissive of the opinions of others. It's like saying, "You're wrong," instead of "I disagree because..." It's the way people talk when they think their opinion is the only one that matters or counts. So as a piece of constructive criticism, if you'd just left those out of your replies, it would have still been clear to everyone that you disagreed with me, while maintaining a more respectful discussion. Just telling you this because my brother does the same thing, and it earns him no points with anyone.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Nov 30 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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especially when you follow "incorrect" with a gem like this : "solid, thematic cohesive theme"


thematic themes are definitely the best kind of themes. TF.
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#24 Nov 30 2012 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Always a verbose critic, I have to admit a direct comparison between the old and new versions of the Black Shroud are an eye-opener. Judge by yourselves.

Old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz_xWM5cdQQ&hd=1
New
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n96NDin_wqM&hd=1


I get cold sweats watching the old...

Haha, agreed. 1.0 looks so outdated and bland in comparison.
#25 Nov 30 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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this video is getting me so excited. the landscscape looks amazing and unique.the one thing i do hope is that this time they have sounds tracks for every area. i dont care if the music is repeated for some zones, but the silent wind in the cave for every cave left something to be desired. the goblin mine was cool though and fit that area well so they could do it.
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