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#1 Nov 29 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Other than my personal assumption that it will become the home to Chocobo racing, are there any other must have attractions?

How does it stay fresh? Should mini-games have a cycle or lifespan before removed for other mini-games?

Should it cost gil exclusively or add a rare drop like a free ticket? Perhaps to entice tight wallets?

It's an exciting idea I'm looking forward to seeing.


*edit to round out gil question.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 6:41pm by ShindaUsagi
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#2 Nov 29 2012 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Boxing game needs to make a comeback. And yeah, there definitely needs to be some gambling to make it exciting.
#3 Nov 29 2012 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no doubt it will be a potentially tremendous gil sink (which kind of makes my question redundant. I should have asked if they should implement maybe a rare drop currency. Like a free ticket or something.
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#4 Nov 29 2012 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
Definitely no gambling, imo. If they make it so that you never make any real money, no one will do it. If they make it where you can win some big money, possible RMT issues. I don't know how I feel about the possibility of mini-games in an MMO. I know that some things, like fishing, can be considered mini-games depending on the implementation. But this thought of paying gil for some boxing game, or a moogle-life game, or even something new... seems gimmicky.

Edit: now if the gambling had the potential for really awesome rare/ex stuff, I could totally get into that. Could be hair, low lvl weapons, housing furniture, rse clothing, to name a few.

Edited, Nov 29th 2012 9:11pm by IKickYoDog
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#5 Nov 29 2012 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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I think there should be a staple stable of games that require skill (chess/checkers types that are easy to pick up, hard to master), a card game of some sort where you can get cards from mobs maybe certain cards only during certain IRL seasons so people who want the cards are likely to play to win the cards they would otherwise have to wait 3/4 of a year to farm from mobs...

In addition it would be great if there were seasonal games or maybe even just rulesets...

If they do it wrong though, like KickYoDog says.... gimmick
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#6 Nov 29 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think they could implement gambling, considering what happened to the moogle lottery in XI.
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#7 Nov 29 2012 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
I could totally get behind some type of card game, maybe like the one from FFVIII. How the cards would be distributed could be really awesome, or really detrimental to the game though. Have some base sets you can buy from NPC vendors, decent - good cards that can be crafted, rare cards from the Saucer? Don't know if I'd want mobs dropping cards, because eventually you'd have boss battles dropping "ultimate" cards. I think the mini games should be their own thing that everyone can enjoy, not one more thing some high-end LS's can dominate.
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#8 Nov 29 2012 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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i think a card game would be an amazing idea. ff8's card game was just awesome. i always wanted to play against someone else. i know ffxi had the side tetra master thing, but that was something everyone who played it agreed should have been in the game in the first place. i didnt really like tetra master all that much because of how the numbers and stuff remained a mystery to me for so long. a revamped ff8 card game with a bigger grid and a large assortment of cards would be great. it would be like having a game in a game, and would definatley be something people would do if they were waiting for a party or something.

as for the mini games in an MMO thing goes, i think they have their place. a casino thing like in ff7 would work. not all the games have to be multiplayer, and i would love to race chocobos against real people. This too could be done so there could be some skill involved. if this is implemented what i think would be a good idea is to use gil to buy casino coins (not TOO expensive mind you, but not too cheap) and then you can go play casino games for ra/ex prizes. most of the prizes should be novelty items with perhaps a few decent itemsthrown in for people to go after if they choose.

theres so many possibilities they could do with it to make it fun. ive always said in a good MMO its the small things that make the difference and this could be one of them if done right.
#9 Nov 29 2012 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
I don't think they could implement gambling, considering what happened to the moogle lottery in XI.


^ this

If gambling were allowed in game, only JP players would be able to participate.
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30 bucks is almost free

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#10 Nov 30 2012 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been begging for a card game since like the beginning of FFXI. Of course, they released PlayOnline with Tetra Master, but why it didn't occur to them to make this an in-game feature... well, meh. I'd actually like to see something more like a TCG. Tetra Master and it's ilk aren't really the high art of card gaming to me, but better than nothing.

IKickYoDog wrote:
Definitely no gambling, imo. If they make it so that you never make any real money, no one will do it. If they make it where you can win some big money, possible RMT issues. I don't know how I feel about the possibility of mini-games in an MMO. I know that some things, like fishing, can be considered mini-games depending on the implementation. But this thought of paying gil for some boxing game, or a moogle-life game, or even something new... seems gimmicky.

Edit: now if the gambling had the potential for really awesome rare/ex stuff, I could totally get into that. Could be hair, low lvl weapons, housing furniture, rse clothing, to name a few.


All they need to do for gambling is give players the smallest possibility to do it on their own. For years and years players ran casinos out of Jeuno simply by using the /random feature. In the earlier iterations, players would just give their gil to the dealer and /random for the pot. Winner would take all, but the dealer would keep 5-10%. In the later iterations, some obscenely wealthy players would actually put up their own money as the casino, again having some rules so that the odds were about 10% in their favor.
It would also be easy for them to include other gambling games where players bet against one another.

Wint wrote:
I don't think they could implement gambling, considering what happened to the moogle lottery in XI.


I never really saw what happened with that... fill us in?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Nov 30 2012 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
I don't think they could implement gambling, considering what happened to the moogle lottery in XI.


I never really saw what happened with that... fill us in?

Some countries don't allow gambling and some states in the US have strange laws regarding gambling; specifically online gambling. Personally I saw it is a glorified raffle where you got to pick your number instead of drawing for one.

Anyway, 2012 Vanafest was the last moogle bonanza and it was JP onry. From now on they're going to do stuff like the thanksgiving contest where you're selected for a submission instead of a lotto style number drawing.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#12 Nov 30 2012 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
I don't think they could implement gambling, considering what happened to the moogle lottery in XI.


I never really saw what happened with that... fill us in?

Some countries don't allow gambling and some states in the US have strange laws regarding gambling; specifically online gambling. Personally I saw it is a glorified raffle where you got to pick your number instead of drawing for one.

Anyway, 2012 Vanafest was the last moogle bonanza and it was JP onry. From now on they're going to do stuff like the thanksgiving contest where you're selected for a submission instead of a lotto style number drawing.



Awww and here I was hoping to sport my big white hat with mint julip in hand at the races :(

The card game sounds like a great idea. I love collecting art cards (you have your reasons to play and I have mine).

Just for giggles I'd love to have a moogle fortune teller. Little gypsy hat and all.
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#13 Nov 30 2012 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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"Hey mayor, have you heard about these fake online worlds where people have fake money to buy fake stuff?"

"No, what about it?"

"Well I think we should regulate the activities they can do with fake money"

"Good plan secretary who possess no logical reasoning at all"

"Let's make fake gambling illegal!"

"Seconed!"


This world will never cease to amuse me.
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#14 Nov 30 2012 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yes there was a lot of anger and gnashing of teeth when they announced it, but I wouldn't want to be in SE's shoes and try to navigate the legalities of not only 50 states but however many other countries they have users in.
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#15 Nov 30 2012 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I would love a lot of different minigames in a gold saucer type of setting. In there I remember I particularly liked the game where you fought against a number of mobs and with each stage one status ailment was put on you. Chocobo racing was also nice and I had fun with the snowboard game.

Aside from that I would really love a card game a la Tetra Master. I definitely think cards should be aquireable from more or less everything. So killing different mobs should have the chance of dropping cards, exploring cool areas with secret places could hide cards, other minigames could give cards, pvp as well.

I think everything should give cards and instead of making some cards from for example HNM's super "OP" just make them more nished to the event you got it from. Naturally there should be more powerful cards etc, but instead of having a card with max stats on everything give it more stats overall than most cards, but make it good at something specific. That way you can get really powerful cards in a lot of different ways and they are all good at different things.

As for rewards for minigames in general I think it all depends on what the game is and how difficult it is. I could see some pretty good items coming out of them if the challenge is sufficient and the game is related to the same type of event. So that in the fighting game I mentioned earlier for example, I could get pretty cool items for PvE, if the game is more of a PvP type minigame then it might give some decent PvP items.

Either way though it is a great idea imo and a card game especially.
#16 Nov 30 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, for all of the wonderful speculation going on in this thread and the neat minigame ideas I've seen by skimming over. I've got one important question to ask:

Does anyone else have the Golden Saucer theme stuck in their head when looking at this thread?

Seriously, we need that back.

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 1:38pm by Hyrist
#17 Nov 30 2012 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
Hyrist wrote:
Does anyone else have the Golden Saucer theme stuck in their head when looking at this thread?
Edited, Nov 30th 2012 1:38pm by Hyrist


Well I didn't... #$%@ you Hyrist Smiley: laugh. Hard to talk to patients when I have carnival music in my head.
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#18 Nov 30 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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The best thing about the Golden Saucer was the battle arena, After every fight you would lose an ability, HP/MP, get poisoned etc etc.

How about if they introduced some sort of leader board - x player has won x amount of rounds so they get x reward. Nothing mechanic breaking or over-powered but something like a special Materia you could meld to your weapon? Something like, I dont know, When you landed a hit stars or sparks would fly off your weapon or something like that.

After every week, the top 50 players would get a reward, A special costume item, an item, special dye colour for certain items, then a special item for the top 10 i.e Materia. Ring etc, Nothing that would be powerful or worth anything on the opem market, but something that could be useful in certain situations.

In no way would it be linked to Relics / AF / Quests that it would **** hurt people in a process, more of a way SE could reward you for your time invested in something fun.
#19 Nov 30 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Some countries don't allow gambling and some states in the US have strange laws regarding gambling; specifically online gambling. Personally I saw it is a glorified raffle where you got to pick your number instead of drawing for one.


That really makes no sense... Sounds to me like they were just being overly conservative. There are states that prohibit online gambling, but legally it's only considered gambling if players are putting up real money to do it. There are still all manner of legal gambling sites where the players just play poker as if it were any other online game. I thought with the FFXI lotto you bought tickets with gil? There's nothing even approaching legal difficulty with that. By that same extension of logic, playing any MMO with random drop rates would be gambling.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Nov 30 2012 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Don't know if I'd want mobs dropping cards, because eventually you'd have boss battles dropping "ultimate" cards. I think the mini games should be their own thing that everyone can enjoy, not one more thing some high-end LS's can dominate.


But that's the beauty of it, a good player should be able to defeat a player that has the boss drop card and win it from him/her. So you COULD get cards you don't have time to farm from end game bosses or whatever.
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#21 Nov 30 2012 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
Perrin wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Don't know if I'd want mobs dropping cards, because eventually you'd have boss battles dropping "ultimate" cards. I think the mini games should be their own thing that everyone can enjoy, not one more thing some high-end LS's can dominate.


But that's the beauty of it, a good player should be able to defeat a player that has the boss drop card and win it from him/her. So you COULD get cards you don't have time to farm from end game bosses or whatever.


Ahh, see I wasn't looking at a "playing for cards" scenario. For some reason I just had points or casino coins or something on the brain. If we were running that system, I wouldn't collect cards. I'd get too angry if I got the Bahamut 4-diamond holographic horizontal card and lost it in a game...
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#22 Nov 30 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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As for winnable items...

Plushies.

Chocobos, Tonberries, Moogles...

I won't demand to be able to hold them. Furniture item is fine.
Make it happen SE! Plushies.
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#23 Nov 30 2012 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
There are states that prohibit online gambling, but legally it's only considered gambling if players are putting up real money to do it.

Not so. Not sure if you've been to a casino or not, but you don't actually gamble with real money. You use chips or tokens that have no value instead of actually using money. Technically, you're not gambling with 'real money' but instead, something that only the casino honors to trade for cash.

If you wanted to get technical, it could also be argued that your subscription fee is money that you are using to gamble in FFXI. The rules for the moogle bonanza stated that in order to participate in the event you needed to have a character that had been created 45 days prior to the event. I know several people who have capped out character slots that they activated around bonanza time to increase their odds of winning. So in essence, they're paying their 20 bucks for 200 chances at winning something.

Gambling is gambling regardless of whether or not the winnings have cash value.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#24 Nov 30 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
There are states that prohibit online gambling, but legally it's only considered gambling if players are putting up real money to do it.

Not so. Not sure if you've been to a casino or not, but you don't actually gamble with real money. You use chips or tokens that have no value instead of actually using money. Technically, you're not gambling with 'real money' but instead, something that only the casino honors to trade for cash.

If you wanted to get technical, it could also be argued that your subscription fee is money that you are using to gamble in FFXI. The rules for the moogle bonanza stated that in order to participate in the event you needed to have a character that had been created 45 days prior to the event. I know several people who have capped out character slots that they activated around bonanza time to increase their odds of winning. So in essence, they're paying their 20 bucks for 200 chances at winning something.

Gambling is gambling regardless of whether or not the winnings have cash value.


Er... Gambling by legal definition requires a prize of cash value. Otherwise any game of chance, whether rock scissors paper or flipping a coin is gambling. Games without any cash value at stake are not under the purview of gaming commissions because they don't legally constitute gambling. So, no. If you think gaming commissions are put off by the fact that many casinos use chips and tokens, you're completely wrong. Those chips have value and are protected (counterfeiting them, for example, is extremely illegal). Casinos transfer the value to chips for a number of reasons, but that in no way changes the fact that when you gamble with chips in a casino, you're gambling with real money.

For example, it's totally legal for me to hold a game of poker at my house where we just play with chips. In some states, it's totally illegal if those chips are being exchanged for real dollars.

I assumed this "bonanza" thing was the lottery moogle in Aht Urghan, which gave out equipment and gil to winners. Real prizes are more questionable... for example, even ads which give a promotional discount if you answer a question correctly can run afoul of gaming laws. But if we're just talking about in-game gambling and prizes, there is no restriction whatsoever. Legally, any prizes you win are still the property of SE, so no property even changes hands.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#25 Nov 30 2012 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
There are states that prohibit online gambling, but legally it's only considered gambling if players are putting up real money to do it.

Not so. Not sure if you've been to a casino or not, but you don't actually gamble with real money. You use chips or tokens that have no value instead of actually using money. Technically, you're not gambling with 'real money' but instead, something that only the casino honors to trade for cash.

If you wanted to get technical, it could also be argued that your subscription fee is money that you are using to gamble in FFXI. The rules for the moogle bonanza stated that in order to participate in the event you needed to have a character that had been created 45 days prior to the event. I know several people who have capped out character slots that they activated around bonanza time to increase their odds of winning. So in essence, they're paying their 20 bucks for 200 chances at winning something.

Gambling is gambling regardless of whether or not the winnings have cash value.


Er... Gambling by legal definition requires a prize of cash value. Otherwise any game of chance, whether rock scissors paper or flipping a coin is gambling.

I apologize. I took your statement of 'real money' to mean legal tender. Casinos use chips that do not have 'cash value' as they cannot be used as currency anywhere outside of the casino. I'm not trying to suggest that they won't give you the 5 bucks if you trade in a $5 chip at a casino; just that if you take it to the piggly wiggly for hot pockets and mountain dew, you'll leave hungry.

We're wading into a debate about a topic that's shaky at best, especially considering the nature of what is or isn't valuable when it comes to virtual goods. In the interest of not completely derailing the topic into interstate and international law, lets stick to what's applicable to XI and the bonanza.

It is my opinion that SE decided against running the bonanza in regions outside of Japan because what constitutes value for virtual goods is still under review. Your landlord might not accept a Kraken Club to cover your rent, but you could probably find a willing buyer online to give you 'real money' for it which you could then use to pay your rent.

The moogle bonanza is conducted just like lottery. Numbered ping pong balls are drawn using the same style air machines and everything. They have 5 separate drawings for each tier and then they implement the winning numbers into the game in a patch that follows shortly after the drawing. If you trade a marble with the correct sequence of numbers to the NPC, they in turn provide you with an item or a voucher to be traded to another NPC(possibly the same one) for a prize.

Money goes to SE in the form of your subscription fee, a game of chance is conducted out of the control or influence of all participants and valuable rewards are distributed. Why wouldn't that make it gambling?
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Nov 30 2012 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Money goes to SE in the form of your subscription fee, a game of chance is conducted out of the control or influence of all participants and valuable rewards are distributed. Why wouldn't that make it gambling?


Legally this is a very simple question. (I know this because, among other things, I'm a gamification consultant, which means I help businesses who want to use game-like features in their business... and there are things very much like this which they can and cannot do, for the reasons SE is apparently concerned about). Before anything, I'll point out that what you just described applies to almost every game on the market. It's true of other MMOs, it's true of trading card games... it's true of most games with an element of chance.

First of all, the money that goes to SE is for a non-betting service. You are very specifically paying for the fee to play the game, a very tiny fraction of which involves an outside element of chance. You don't get a ticket for your subscription (i.e., you still have to go get it), and there are no additional costs for picking up the ticket. This isn't a loophole that someone can use to say, charge admission with a "free raffle ticket," but it is an important element. I actually have a similar raffle feature planned for a game that I'm designing.

Secondly, while the value of online items is still up for some legal debate in civil cases, it is not generally recognized. Just like if someone wrecks my car, and I take them to court for it, I'm only going to get money for my car. I can't claim that it has a large sum of subjective value to me and tack that on as well. If I tell any judge in the country that my car sentimental value to me because my grandfather left it to me, they'd tell me, "Sorry-- I can only make them pay for what the car is worth." In-game items do not exist and only have subjective value. While you might have luck in a civil case if you get a judge who doesn't know better, no judge handling a case against a large corporation like SE is going to make such a silly judgment.

Lastly, and most importantly, the value of the rewards isn't legally transferable. You don't even own what you "win." SE owns it. It's their game and their intellectual property--they own everything in the game, including your character, it's stats, and all its possessions. That's why they can delete it at any moment and you have no recourse--because you don't own it. For this reason, even if they use a regulated gaming machine, they are not beholden to the regulations that an actual lottery would be.

Let me give you an example of the difference between legal and illegal gaming practices. If I designed a FREE app that would let you spin a wheel for a random chance to win a certain % off of products in my store, that would (technically) be illegal... possibly even if you could spin it as many times as you want, because I'm still ascribing a cash value to a chance award. If that same app instead let you spin a wheel for a random chance to "Like" my business's facebook page, and in doing so, gave you a 10% off coupon, then that's technically fine. You're playing for a chance to Like my Facebook page, which you don't even have to do.

So basically, there are several reasons why it's not considered online gambling. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if paying for more accounts gives you more chances.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Nov 30 2012 at 10:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd search for the thread in the XI forums where this was debated ad-nauseum but I'm lazy.
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#28 Nov 30 2012 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Before anything, I'll point out that what you just described applies to almost every game on the market. It's true of other MMOs, it's true of trading card games... it's true of most games with an element of chance.

Every game on the market charges a sub fee and has lotto style drawings for prizes? I don't play every game on the market, but I'm a bit skeptic.

Kachi wrote:
First of all, the money that goes to SE is for a non-betting service. You are very specifically paying for the fee to play the game, a very tiny fraction of which involves an outside element of chance.

If the bonanza is part of the game and available to anyone registered and paying for the service then, for all intents and purposes, you're paying for betting because it's part of the service. I don't think there's an allowance for where the incoming money is distributed. If so, you'd see all kinds of other businesses being used as fronts for gambling.

Kachi wrote:
Lastly, and most importantly, the value of the rewards isn't legally transferable. You don't even own what you "win." SE owns it. It's their game and their intellectual property--they own everything in the game, including your character, it's stats, and all its possessions.

Technically, yes. That doesn't stop people and companies from marketing and distributing SE's intellectual property. Why hasn't SE taken action to shut down every RMT site for selling their intellectual property?

Kachi wrote:
Let me give you an example of the difference between legal and illegal gaming practices. If I designed a FREE app that would let you spin a wheel for a random chance to win a certain % off of products in my store, that would (technically) be illegal... possibly even if you could spin it as many times as you want, because I'm still ascribing a cash value to a chance award.

You have to receive money for it to be a bet. If there is no monetary risk involved in using the app then I don't think that would qualify it as a wager.

There are 3 requirements that need to be met for it to be called gambling:

1) The operator of a game of chance receiving money for participation
2) The operator conducting a game of chance(important) outside of the influence or control of the players
3) The operator distributing something of value to the players based on the outcome

Kachi wrote:
So basically, there are several reasons why it's not considered online gambling. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if paying for more accounts gives you more chances.

You're talking about the difference between purchasing 1 lottery ticket or purchasing 2...

Your sub fee guarantees you the right to participate whether you accept that right or forfeit it. SE conducts their lottery style game of chance independent of the control or influence of the players. SE distributes prizes to players based on the outcome of the lottery. It's gambling.

You can argue the value of virtual goods, but it's difficult to find the market value for a specific amount of gil, nor is it difficult to find the market price for specific goods on a server. I used to get daily updates in XI from Asdjfkl from [insert RMT website here] letting me know just how cheap gil was for sale. I also used to get tells from Kahfsksal in WoW letting me know how much a spectral tiger mount was.

I personally don't care if the bonanza stays or goes because I could care less about a moogle suit or another piece of furniture clogging up my mog safe. The model fits the definition of gambling so I can't really blame SE for trying to steer clear of any issues that it may cause.



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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#29 Dec 01 2012 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, for all of the wonderful speculation going on in this thread and the neat minigame ideas I've seen by skimming over. I've got one important question to ask:

Does anyone else have the Golden Saucer theme stuck in their head when looking at this thread?

Seriously, we need that back.

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 1:38pm by Hyrist

I didn't until you brought it up...thanks Hyrist. Smiley: lol
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#30 Dec 01 2012 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The model fits the definition of gambling so I can't really blame SE for trying to steer clear of any issues that it may cause.


No, it doesn't. That's what I was explaining to you. I wasn't giving you my opinion on the matter. That's the legal state of things in the U.S.. Whether or not you understand it is irrelevant, because judges and lawyers overwhelmingly understand it.

Quote:
Technically, yes. That doesn't stop people and companies from marketing and distributing SE's intellectual property. Why hasn't SE taken action to shut down every RMT site for selling their intellectual property?


Historically they have. But that doesn't mean that they will be successful in international courts. However, in the US, they have every right to do so. Either way, just because they choose not to take action doesn't mean that they are forfeiting their rights to use their property how they see fit, nor does it mean that they are giving people permission to sell their property. It has absolutely no legal relevance.

I don't know how many ways I can say it, but you aren't betting on anything and you can't win anything, so it isn't gambling. If the only way you can place more bets is by paying for more subscriptions, there could maybe be a slim chance for a case if there were a prize that were recognized as having cash value (even if it were something like a keychain), but still, not even then would they run afoul of any gaming authority in the U.S.. There's just too strong a case to make for the "lottery" falling within the regular game experience that comes with the subscription (helped by the fact that players have to basically exploit a loophole to "place a bet"), even ignoring the fact that, once again, you aren't legally winning anything.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Dec 01 2012 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1) The operator of a game of chance receiving money for participation
2) The operator conducting a game of chance(important) outside of the influence or control of the players
3) The operator distributing something of value to the players based on the outcome


Here:
1) They are receiving money for the subscription, which includes the opportunity to participate. This is not a simple extension of logic where you can say, "Well, because they are receiving money for the service which allows participation, it's the same." It's a judgement call that is made primarily with consideration for why people are paying. If many people are paying specifically for the lottery, then you might have a problem, but considering that this is merely a tiny gaming element within a gigantic game, and the element has no value without respect to the larger game, you have better chances of winning the lottery than running afoul of an adjudicator who would judge that the operator is receiving money for participation.

2) Most games, especially MMOs, are conducting a game of chance outside the influence or control of the players. For example, when you kill a monster, you have no influence or control over whether it will drop anything.

3) Legally, again, they are neither distributing a reward, nor would there be a legal value.

So it clearly fails on 3, it essentially fails on 1, and 2 is true, but is also characteristic of most forms of gaming. There's just absolutely no way it holds up.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#32 Dec 01 2012 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I don't know how many ways I can say it, but you aren't betting on anything and you can't win anything, so it isn't gambling.

It doesn't really matter how many ways you can come up with to say it, you'd still be wrong. Mog Bonanza fulfilled all of the necessary requirements to be called gambling. SE saw that and pulled the plug. Deal with it.

Kachi wrote:
There's just too strong a case to make for the "lottery" falling within the regular game experience that comes with the subscription (helped by the fact that players have to basically exploit a loophole to "place a bet"), even ignoring the fact that, once again, you aren't legally winning anything.

Um, sure... all except for the fact that Tanaka himself (not an in game representation of him) stood behind a real life lottery machine and pulled the winning numbers each year.

You don't have to exploit any loopholes to bet, you just pay your subscription fee and a small amount of gil to an NPC. By the way... if you think gil has no value, you should log in to FFXI more. At least 3 times a day you'll have someone telling you exactly what it's worth and where you can buy or sell it.

Edited, Dec 1st 2012 4:15am by FilthMcNasty
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#33 Dec 01 2012 at 3:28 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
1) The operator of a game of chance receiving money for participation
2) The operator conducting a game of chance(important) outside of the influence or control of the players
3) The operator distributing something of value to the players based on the outcome


Here:
1) They are receiving money for the subscription, which includes the opportunity to participate. This is not a simple extension of logic where you can say, "Well, because they are receiving money for the service which allows participation, it's the same." It's a judgement call that is made primarily with consideration for why people are paying. If many people are paying specifically for the lottery, then you might have a problem, but considering that this is merely a tiny gaming element within a gigantic game, and the element has no value without respect to the larger game, you have better chances of winning the lottery than running afoul of an adjudicator who would judge that the operator is receiving money for participation.

2) Most games, especially MMOs, are conducting a game of chance outside the influence or control of the players. For example, when you kill a monster, you have no influence or control over whether it will drop anything.

3) Legally, again, they are neither distributing a reward, nor would there be a legal value.

So it clearly fails on 3, it essentially fails on 1, and 2 is true, but is also characteristic of most forms of gaming. There's just absolutely no way it holds up.


/sigh

It's not a judgement call. If you pay them, you pay them.

1) Someone could open a 'restaurant' and distribute chips with every meal purchased which allow you to participate in some game of chance for winnings. Would that not be called gambling because you were paying for the meal and the chips just happened to be included? It doesn't strike you as odd that someone would activate 20 character slots despite only being able to actually play one at a time? Then it probably would seem rational to you that people were buying 30 plates of veal at a casi... err, 'restaurant'.

2) There is a difference between games of chance and games of skill. For this same reason, poker is being allowed in places that normally don't allow gambling because it isn't a game of chance. The outcome of the game is directly influenced and controlled by players. The outcome of a battle with a 'monster' in a game is directly controlled or influenced by the player. Did you actually read the quote? That was too easy.

3) Point blank... gil is worth money.

Clearly you fail at all 3. Done here.


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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#34 Dec 01 2012 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Walls and walls and walls o' text
Kachi wrote:
[quote] Walls and walls and walls o' text



Guys, all this ******* is gonna leave you dehydrated. And considering you're the only two who actually give a @#%^ about the sh*t you both insist on being right about, how about you guys take it to PM so the rest of us can have our thread about mini-games back...Smiley: nod


Edited, Dec 1st 2012 6:26am by ChaChaJaJa
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You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#35 Dec 01 2012 at 5:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Beerpong, with severe punishments for losing, Severe. Smiley: sly
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#36 Dec 01 2012 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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crasyk wrote:
Beerpong, with severe punishments for losing, Severe. Smiley: sly


Like blurry screen or opposite movement controls for 24 hours? That could be fun...
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#37 Dec 01 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not to mention this fight was done to death in the XI forums already.
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#38 Dec 01 2012 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Look, I'm not going to continue trying to explain to you why you're wrong... I'm just telling you, you're wrong. This is a simple matter of, "I understand the law on this issue, and you don't." I apologize if I led you to believe that this was an argument. This was a lecture from someone who actually knows what they're talking about, because again, I am someone who helps businesses (not very different from SE) conduct legal gaming practices, and you are apparently someone who plays video games and has a lot of opinions.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Dec 01 2012 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Look, I'm not going to continue trying to explain to you why you're wrong... I'm just telling you, you're wrong. This is a simple matter of, "I understand the law on this issue, and you don't." I apologize if I led you to believe that this was an argument. This was a lecture from someone who actually knows what they're talking about, because again, I am someone who helps businesses (not very different from SE) conduct legal gaming practices, and you are apparently someone who plays video games and has a lot of opinions.


Ok, I'm not going to lie... this last one made me lol a little bit...
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BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#40 Dec 01 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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So....you're an internet lawyer? Smiley: tongue
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#41 Dec 01 2012 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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******* Nobia(sp) ruining it for all of us!
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Dec 01 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wondered if you knew that particular bit of site lore Smiley: laugh
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#43 Dec 01 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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I've been here too long -_-
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44FilthMcNasty, Posted: Dec 01 2012 at 6:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) He's got himself convinced so at least that counts for something.
#45 Dec 01 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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First one to quote the proof of his point and post it wins!

http://www.loc.gov/law/

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#46 Dec 01 2012 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Smiley: rolleyes Riiiiight.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Dec 01 2012 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
First one to quote the proof of his point and post it wins!

http://www.loc.gov/law/



One of us has already read it:

Quote:
The Act Became Effective on October 13, 2006

UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING ENFORCEMENT ACT of 2006

SEC. 801. SHORT TITLE. This title may be cited as the ''Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006''.

SEC. 802. PROHIBITION ON ACCEPTANCE OF ANY PAYMENT INSTRUMENT FOR UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING.

(a) IN GENERAL.—Chapter 53 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following: ''SUBCHAPTER IV—PROHIBITION ON FUNDING OF UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING

''§ 5361. Congressional findings and purpose ''

(a) FINDINGS.—Congress finds the following: ''(1) Internet gambling is primarily funded through personal use of payment system instruments, credit cards, and wire transfers. ''(2) The National Gambling Impact Study Commission in 1999 recommended the passage of legislation to prohibit wire transfers to Internet gambling sites or the banks which represent such sites. ''(3) Internet gambling is a growing cause of debt collection problems for insured depository institutions and the consumer credit industry. ''(4) New mechanisms for enforcing gambling laws on the Internet are necessary because traditional law enforcement mechanisms are often inadequate for enforcing gambling prohibitions or regulations on the Internet, especially where such gambling crosses State or national borders.

''(b) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.—No provision of this subchapter shall be construed as altering, limiting, or extending any Federal or State law or Tribal-State compact prohibiting, permitting, or regulating gambling within the United States.

''§ 5362. Definitions ''

In this subchapter:

''(1) BET OR WAGER.—The term 'bet or wager'—

''(A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;

''(B) includes the purchase of a chance or opportunity to win a lottery or other prize (which opportunity to win is predominantly subject to chance); '

'(C) includes any scheme of a type described in section 3702 of title 28;

''(D) includes any instructions or information pertaining to the establishment or movement of funds by the bettor or customer in, to, or from an account with the business of betting or wagering; and

''(E) does not include—

''(i) any activity governed by the securities laws (as that term is defined in section 3(a)(47) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 for the purchase or sale of securities (as that term is defined in section 3(a)(10) of that Act);

''(ii) any transaction conducted on or subject to the rules of a registered entity or exempt board of trade under the Commodity Exchange Act;

''(iii) any over-the-counter derivative instrument;

''(iv) any other transaction that— ''(I) is excluded or exempt from regulation under the Commodity Exchange Act; or ''(II) is exempt from State gaming or bucket shop laws under section 12(e) of the Commodity Exchange Act or section 28(a) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934;

''(v) any contract of indemnity or guarantee;

''(vi) any contract for insurance; '

'(vii) any deposit or other transaction with an insured depository institution; '

'(viii) participation in any game or contest in which participants do not stake or risk anything of value other than—

''(I) personal efforts of the participants in playing the game or contest or obtaining access to the Internet; or '

'(II) points or credits that the sponsor of the game or contest provides to participants free of charge and that can be used or redeemed only for participation in games or contests offered by the sponsor; or

''(ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest in which (if the game or contest involves a team or teams) no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an actual team that is a member of an amateur or professional sports organization (as those terms are defined in section 3701 of title 28) and that meets the following conditions:

''(I) All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants.

''(II) All winning outcomes reflect the relative knowledge and skill of the participants and are determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of the performance of individuals (athletes in the case of sports events) in multiple real world sporting or other events.

''(III) No winning outcome is based— ''(aa) on the score, point-spread, or any performance or performances of any single real-world team or any combination of such teams; or ''(bb) solely on any single performance of an individual athlete in any single real-world sporting or other event.

''(2) BUSINESS OF BETTING OR WAGERING.—The term 'business of betting or wagering' does not include the activities of a financial transaction provider, or any interactive computer service or telecommunications service.

''(3) DESIGNATED PAYMENT SYSTEM.—The term 'designated payment system' means any system utilized by a financial transaction provider that the Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, in consultation with the Attorney General, jointly determine, by regulation or order, could be utilized in connection with, or to facilitate, any restricted transaction.

''(4) FINANCIAL TRANSACTION PROVIDER.—The term 'financial transaction provider' means a creditor, credit card issuer, financial institution, operator of a terminal at which an electronic fund transfer may be initiated, money transmitting business, or international, national, regional, or local payment network utilized to effect a credit transaction, electronic fund transfer, stored value product transaction, or money transmitting service, or a participant in such network, or other participant in a designated payment system.

''(5) INTERNET.—The term 'Internet' means the international computer network of interoperable packet switched data networks.

''(6) INTERACTIVE COMPUTER SERVICE.—The term 'interactive computer service' has the meaning given the term in section 230(f) of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 230(f)).

''(7) RESTRICTED TRANSACTION.—The term 'restricted transaction' means any transaction or transmittal involving any H. R. 4954—72 credit, funds, instrument, or proceeds described in any paragraph of section 5363 which the recipient is prohibited from accepting under section 5363.

''(8) SECRETARY.—The term 'Secretary' means the Secretary of the Treasury.

''(9) STATE.—The term 'State' means any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, or any commonwealth, territory, or other possession of the United States.

''(10) UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING.— ''(A) IN GENERAL.—The term 'unlawful Internet gambling' means to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or Tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made.

''(B) INTRASTATE TRANSACTIONS.—The term 'unlawful Internet gambling' does not include placing, receiving, or otherwise transmitting a bet or wager where—

''(i) the bet or wager is initiated and received or otherwise made exclusively within a single State;

''(ii) the bet or wager and the method by which the bet or wager is initiated and received or otherwise made is expressly authorized by and placed in accordance with the laws of such State, and the State law or regulations include— ''(I) age and location verification requirements reasonably designed to block access to minors and persons located out of such State; and ''(II) appropriate data security standards to prevent unauthorized access by any person whose age and current location has not been verified in accordance with such State's law or regulations; and

''(iii) the bet or wager does not violate any provision of—

''(I) the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978 (15 U.S.C. 3001 et seq.);

''(II) chapter 178 of title 28 (commonly known as the 'Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act');

''(III) the Gambling Devices Transportation Act (15 U.S.C. 1171 et seq.); or

''(IV) the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (25 U.S.C. 2701 et seq.).

''(C) INTRATRIBAL TRANSACTIONS.—The term 'unlawful Internet gambling' does not include placing, receiving, or otherwise transmitting a bet or wager where— ''(i) the bet or wager is initiated and received or otherwise made exclusively— ''(I) within the Indian lands of a single Indian tribe (as such terms are defined under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act); or ''(II) between the Indian lands of 2 or more Indian tribes to the extent that intertribal gaming is authorized by the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act; ''(ii) the bet or wager and the method by which the bet or wager is initiated and received or otherwise made is expressly authorized by and complies with the requirements of— ''(I) the applicable tribal ordinance or resolution approved by the Chairman of the National Indian Gaming Commission; and ''(II) with respect to class III gaming, the applicable Tribal-State Compact; ''(iii) the applicable tribal ordinance or resolution or Tribal-State Compact includes— ''(I) age and location verification requirements reasonably designed to block access to minors and persons located out of the applicable Tribal lands; and ''(II) appropriate data security standards to prevent unauthorized access by any person whose age and current location has not been verified in accordance with the applicable tribal ordinance or resolution or Tribal-State Compact; and ''(iv) the bet or wager does not violate any provision of— ''(I) the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978 (15 U.S.C. 3001 et seq.); ''(II) chapter 178 of title 28 (commonly known as the 'Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act'); ''(III) the Gambling Devices Transportation Act (15 U.S.C. 1171 et seq.); or ''(IV) the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (25 U.S.C. 2701 et seq.).

''(D) INTERSTATE HORSERACING.— ''(i) IN GENERAL.—The term 'unlawful Internet gambling' shall not include any activity that is allowed under the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978 (15 U.S.C. 3001 et seq.).

''(ii) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION REGARDING PREEMPTION.— Nothing in this subchapter may be construed to preempt any State law prohibiting gambling.

''(iii) SENSE OF CONGRESS.—It is the sense of Congress that this subchapter shall not change which activities related to horse racing may or may not be allowed under Federal law. This subparagraph is intended to address concerns that this subchapter could have the effect of changing the existing relationship between the Interstate Horseracing Act and other Federal statutes in effect on the date of the enactment of this subchapter. This subchapter is not intended to change that relationship. This subchapter is not intended to resolve any existing disagreements over how to interpret the relationship between the Interstate Horseracing Act and other Federal statutes.

''(E) INTERMEDIATE ROUTING.—The intermediate routing of electronic data shall not determine the location or locations in which a bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made.

''(11) OTHER TERMS.—

''(A) CREDIT; CREDITOR; CREDIT CARD; AND CARD ISSUER.—The terms 'credit', 'creditor', 'credit card', and 'card issuer' have the meanings given the terms in section 103 of the Truth in Lending Act (15 U.S.C. 1602).

''(B) ELECTRONIC FUND TRANSFER.—The term 'electronic fund transfer'— ''(i) has the meaning given the term in section 903 of the Electronic Fund Transfer Act (15 U.S.C. 1693a), except that the term includes transfers that would otherwise be excluded under section 903(6)(E) of that Act; and ''(ii) includes any fund transfer covered by Article 4A of the Uniform Commercial Code, as in effect in any State.

''(C) FINANCIAL INSTITUTION.—The term 'financial institution' has the meaning given the term in section 903 of the Electronic Fund Transfer Act, except that such term does not include a casino, sports book, or other business at or through which bets or wagers may be placed or received.

''(D) INSURED DEPOSITORY INSTITUTION.—The term 'insured depository institution'— ''(i) has the meaning given the term in section 3(c) of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act (12 U.S.C. 1813(c)); and ''(ii) includes an insured credit union (as defined in section 101 of the Federal Credit Union Act).

''(E) MONEY TRANSMITTING BUSINESS AND MONEY TRANSMITTING SERVICE.—The terms 'money transmitting business' and 'money transmitting service' have the meanings given the terms in section 5330(d) (determined without regard to any regulations prescribed by the Secretary thereunder).

''§ 5363. Prohibition on acceptance of any financial instrument for unlawful Internet gambling ''

No person engaged in the business of betting or wagering may knowingly accept, in connection with the participation of another person in unlawful Internet gambling— ''

(1) credit, or the proceeds of credit, extended to or on behalf of such other person (including credit extended through the use of a credit card);

''(2) an electronic fund transfer, or funds transmitted by or through a money transmitting business, or the proceeds of an electronic fund transfer or money transmitting service, from or on behalf of such other person;

''(3) any check, draft, or similar instrument which is drawn by or on behalf of such other person and is drawn on or payable at or through any financial institution; or

''(4) the proceeds of any other form of financial transaction, as the Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System may jointly prescribe by regulation, which involves a financial institution as a payor or financial intermediary on behalf of or for the benefit of such other person.

''§ 5364. Policies and procedures to identify and prevent restricted transactions ''

(a) REGULATIONS.—Before the end of the 270-day period beginning on the date of the enactment of this subchapter, the Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall prescribe regulations (which the Secretary and the Board jointly determine to be appropriate) requiring each designated payment system, and all participants therein, to identify and block or otherwise prevent or prohibit restricted transactions through the establishment of policies and procedures reasonably designed to identify and block or otherwise prevent or prohibit the acceptance of restricted transactions in any of the following ways: ''(1) The establishment of policies and procedures that— ''(A) allow the payment system and any person involved in the payment system to identify restricted transactions by means of codes in authorization messages or by other means; and ''(B) block restricted transactions identified as a result of the policies and procedures developed pursuant to subparagraph (A). ''(2) The establishment of policies and procedures that prevent or prohibit the acceptance of the products or services of the payment system in connection with a restricted transaction.

''(b) REQUIREMENTS FOR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES.—In prescribing regulations under subsection (a), the Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System shall— ''(1) identify types of policies and procedures, including nonexclusive examples, which would be deemed, as applicable, to be reasonably designed to identify and block or otherwise prevent or prohibit the acceptance of the products or services with respect to each type of restricted transaction; ''(2) to the extent practical, permit any participant in a payment system to choose among alternative means of identifying and blocking, or otherwise preventing or prohibiting the acceptance of the products or services of the payment system or participant in connection with, restricted transactions; ''(3) exempt certain restricted transactions or designated payment systems from any requirement imposed under such regulations, if the Secretary and the Board jointly find that it is not reasonably practical to identify and block, or otherwise prevent or prohibit the acceptance of, such transactions; and ''(4) ensure that transactions in connection with any activity excluded from the definition of unlawful internet gambling in subparagraph (B), (C), or (D)(i) of section 5362(10) are not blocked or otherwise prevented or prohibited by the prescribed regulations.

''(c) COMPLIANCE WITH PAYMENT SYSTEM POLICIES AND PROCEDURES.— A financial transaction provider shall be considered to be in compliance with the regulations prescribed under subsection (a) if— ''(1) such person relies on and complies with the policies and procedures of a designated payment system of which it is a member or participant to— ''(A) identify and block restricted transactions; or H. R. 4954—76 ''(B) otherwise prevent or prohibit the acceptance of the products or services of the payment system, member, or participant in connection with restricted transactions; and ''(2) such policies and procedures of the designated payment system comply with the requirements of regulations prescribed under subsection (a).

''(d) NO LIABILITY FOR BLOCKING OR REFUSING TO HONOR RESTRICTED TRANSACTIONS.—A person that identifies and blocks a transaction, prevents or prohibits the acceptance of its products or services in connection with a transaction, or otherwise refuses to honor a transaction— ''(1) that is a restricted transaction; ''(2) that such person reasonably believes to be a restricted transaction; or ''(3) as a designated payment system or a member of a designated payment system in reliance on the policies and procedures of the payment system, in an effort to comply with regulations prescribed under subsection (a), shall not be liable to any party for such action.

''(e) REGULATORY ENFORCEMENT.—The requirements under this section shall be enforced exclusively by— ''(1) the Federal functional regulators, with respect to the designated payment systems and financial transaction providers subject to the respective jurisdiction of such regulators under section 505(a) of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and section 5g of the Commodities Exchange Act; and ''(2) the Federal Trade Commission, with respect to designated payment systems and financial transaction providers not otherwise subject to the jurisdiction of any Federal functional regulators (including the Commission) as described in paragraph (1).

''§ 5365. Civil remedies ''

(a) JURISDICTION.—In addition to any other remedy under current law, the district courts of the United States shall have original and exclusive jurisdiction to prevent and restrain restricted transactions by issuing appropriate orders in accordance with this section, regardless of whether a prosecution has been initiated under this subchapter.

''(b) PROCEEDINGS.— ''(1) INSTITUTION BY FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.— ''(A) IN GENERAL.—The United States, acting through the Attorney General, may institute proceedings under this section to prevent or restrain a restricted transaction. ''(B) RELIEF.—Upon application of the United States under this paragraph, the district court may enter a temporary restraining order, a preliminary injunction, or an injunction against any person to prevent or restrain a restricted transaction, in accordance with rule 65 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

''(2) INSTITUTION BY STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL.— ''(A) IN GENERAL.—The attorney general (or other appropriate State official) of a State in which a restricted transaction allegedly has been or will be initiated, received, or otherwise made may institute proceedings under this H. R. 4954—77 section to prevent or restrain the violation or threatened violation. ''(B) RELIEF.—Upon application of the attorney general (or other appropriate State official) of an affected State under this paragraph, the district court may enter a temporary restraining order, a preliminary injunction, or an injunction against any person to prevent or restrain a restricted transaction, in accordance with rule 65 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

''(3) INDIAN LANDS.— ''(A) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding paragraphs (1) and (2), for a restricted transaction that allegedly has been or will be initiated, received, or otherwise made on Indian lands (as that term is defined in section 4 of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act)— ''(i) the United States shall have the enforcement authority provided under paragraph (1); and ''(ii) the enforcement authorities specified in an applicable Tribal-State Compact negotiated under section 11 of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (25 U.S.C. 2710) shall be carried out in accordance with that compact.

''(B) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.—No provision of this section shall be construed as altering, superseding, or otherwise affecting the application of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act.

''(c) LIMITATION RELATING TO INTERACTIVE COMPUTER SERVICES.— ''(1) IN GENERAL.—Relief granted under this section against an interactive computer service shall— ''(A) be limited to the removal of, or disabling of access to, an online site violating section 5363, or a hypertext link to an online site violating such section, that resides on a computer server that such service controls or operates, except that the limitation in this subparagraph shall not apply if the service is subject to liability under this section under section 5367; ''(B) be available only after notice to the interactive computer service and an opportunity for the service to appear are provided; ''(C) not impose any obligation on an interactive computer service to monitor its service or to affirmatively seek facts indicating activity violating this subchapter; ''(D) specify the interactive computer service to which it applies; and ''(E) specifically identify the location of the online site or hypertext link to be removed or access to which is to be disabled.

''(2) COORDINATION WITH OTHER LAW.—An interactive computer service that does not violate this subchapter shall not be liable under section 1084(d) of title 18, except that the limitation in this paragraph shall not apply if an interactive computer service has actual knowledge and control of bets and wagers and— ''(A) operates, manages, supervises, or directs an Internet website at which unlawful bets or wagers may be placed, received, or otherwise made or at which unlawful bets or wagers are offered to be placed, received, or otherwise made; or ''(B) owns or controls, or is owned or controlled by, any person who operates, manages, supervises, or directs an Internet website at which unlawful bets or wagers may be placed, received, or otherwise made, or at which unlawful bets or wagers are offered to be placed, received, or otherwise made.

''(d) LIMITATION ON INJUNCTIONS AGAINST REGULATED PERSONS.— Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, and subject to section 5367, no provision of this subchapter shall be construed as authorizing the Attorney General of the United States, or the attorney general (or other appropriate State official) of any State to institute proceedings to prevent or restrain a restricted transaction against any financial transaction provider, to the extent that the person is acting as a financial transaction provider.

''§ 5366. Criminal penalties ''

(a) IN GENERAL.—Any person who violates section 5363 shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.

''(b) PERMANENT INJUNCTION.—Upon conviction of a person under this section, the court may enter a permanent injunction enjoining such person from placing, receiving, or otherwise making bets or wagers or sending, receiving, or inviting information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers.

''§ 5367. Circumventions prohibited ''

Notwithstanding section 5362(2), a financial transaction provider, or any interactive computer service or telecommunications service, may be liable under this subchapter if such person has actual knowledge and control of bets and wagers, and— ''(1) operates, manages, supervises, or directs an Internet website at which unlawful bets or wagers may be placed, received, or otherwise made, or at which unlawful bets or wagers are offered to be placed, received, or otherwise made; or

''(2) owns or controls, or is owned or controlled by, any person who operates, manages, supervises, or directs an Internet website at which unlawful bets or wagers may be placed, received, or otherwise made, or at which unlawful bets or wagers are offered to be placed, received, or otherwise made.''.

(b) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT.—The table of sections for chapter 53 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following: ''SUBCHAPTER IV—PROHIBITION ON FUNDING OF UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING ''5361. Congressional findings and purpose. ''5362. Definitions. ''5363. Prohibition on acceptance of any financial instrument for unlawful Internet gambling. ''5364. Policies and procedures to identify and prevent restricted transactions. ''5365. Civil remedies. ''5366. Criminal penalties. ''5367. Circumventions prohibited.''. H. R. 4954—79

SEC. 803. INTERNET GAMBLING IN OR THROUGH FOREIGN JURISDICTIONS.

(a) IN GENERAL.—In deliberations between the United States Government and any foreign country on money laundering, corruption, and crime issues, the United States Government should—

(1) encourage cooperation by foreign governments and relevant international fora in identifying whether Internet gambling operations are being used for money laundering, corruption, or other crimes;

(2) advance policies that promote the cooperation of foreign governments, through information sharing or other measures, in the enforcement of this Act; and

(3) encourage the Financial Action Task Force on Money Laundering, in its annual report on money laundering typologies, to study the extent to which Internet gambling operations are being used for money laundering purposes.

(b) REPORT REQUIRED.—The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit an annual report to the Congress on any deliberations between the United States and other countries on issues relating to Internet gambling.


The problem is that he clearly won't be able to interpret it correctly, and there are additional amendments not included herein.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Dec 02 2012 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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UIGEA 2006 wrote:
(1) BET OR WAGER.—The term 'bet or wager'—
A) means the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome

You risk gil(which is proven to have value) based on the understanding that you will receive a prize in the event of a certain outcome. That qualifies it as a bet or wager.


Quote:
Excluded from the definition of "bet" are:

various business transactions like securities and commodities trading and insurance policies
-> participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play of various games and
certain fantasy sports contests

Source

Bolded for emphasis. The example in FFXI is not excluded from being a bet or wager, as I suggested above, because it requires a subscription fee to participate.

My guess is that this is the reason SE canned their bonanza. It really isn't up to us to interpret, it's up to SE's lawyers to interpret. Clearly they saw something they didn't like or they wouldn't have made changes.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#49 Dec 02 2012 at 3:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly kinda figured you'd just quote something without really understanding it, so I still really don't have anything else to say. I'm sure you can do this all day, and if I point out that "you're wrong, because," you can just keep doing the same thing over and over. Unfortunately the law is open to considerable interpretation to people who don't know the precedents or the legalese.

The bottom line was that this "debate" was over as soon as I pointed out that you never receive any property. Whether or not people will pay money to move some of SE's property from one room in SE's own house to another room in their own house is completely, entirely, 100% irrelevant. Legally, that's the end of the story. Period. Case closed. I was just trying to explain some of the finer points for posterity, in a hypothetical, "Even if that wasn't the case..." sort of way.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Dec 02 2012 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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19 posts
So kind of zoned in and out on the giant walls of text, agree with Kachi though there is no reason for it to be illegal.

My question is why can't they do something like poker or blackjack? I would love to roll in as a level 50 and do that kind of gambling.
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#51 Dec 02 2012 at 5:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
The bottom line was that this "debate" was over as soon as I pointed out that you never receive any property. Whether or not people will pay money to move some of SE's property from one room in SE's own house to another room in their own house is completely, entirely, 100% irrelevant. Legally, that's the end of the story. Period. Case closed. I was just trying to explain some of the finer points for posterity, in a hypothetical, "Even if that wasn't the case..." sort of way.


That still hasn't stopped lawmakers from considering taxation of those virtual property items you supposedly don't own but sort of feel like you do, however. So I don't know that the issue is necessarily as settled as you believe. If the government is considering the case that those virtual items are worth taxing, say in the event of your death for an Estate Tax evaluation on the million dollar Second Life property your heirs will inherit, it's hard to believe that this would somehow also escape Internet gambling law (when those winnings could be taxed too).

It's not that I disagree with your logic on virtual property. I happen to agree with it immensely. But I don't know that we're at a "case closed" state on the subject as long as virtual items are perceived to have real world value.

Put another way, paper dollars don't have any more value than the people who use them have confidence in their worth, and increasingly, these dollars are nothing more tangible than digital representations in a database. It actually isn't all that far off from a virtual world's economy, when you think about it. If you have enough control over virtual assets that you can exchange them for goods, both real and virtual, to someone who considers them valuable, is it really all that different than digitally transferring money from one person's bank account to someone else's in exchange for goods in the real world?

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1043_3-6140298.html
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