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#52 Dec 06 2012 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Too bad its not an mmo. But ive been investing more time into it than i have into GW2(which has the most engaging combat of any mmo ive played), for instance. I could discuss mmo combat all day, because i honestly think there is so much territory left untouched by designers, and its a real shame.


Hear, hear.

Edited, Dec 6th 2012 8:56pm by Kachi
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#53 Dec 07 2012 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
The gamers I'm complaining about want to run around in UBERLEETZ GEARZ but they don't want it to be hard to achieve said gear.


Before I get started, I loved your post, with a rate up and everything.

I think the issue is really about what constitutes "hard." Or put another way, what is the difficult challenge you have to overcome for the reward you seek?

If you're a physics student, it's being able to solve difficult problems in physics to get the high grade. Others who fail to solve these problems will not be so rewarded.

If you're were a classic FFXI player, it was the ability to spend a lot of time playing the game, or being available for the opportune moment to improve your chances for success (e.g. waking up at 3 a.m. to possibly kill an HNM which may be claimed by someone else, may not even appear, may kill you even if you claim it, and may not drop the treasure you were hoping for--but even if it did--the treasure may go to someone else in your group who also wants it).

For some people, that's the sort of difficulty they like. And for awhile, I played along with this concept wholeheartedly. But, now that I'm older, I'm not so sure of its entertainment value. It would be one thing if after mastering FFXI for 3 years you had gained skills like advanced calculus, firearms proficiency, a love of gardening, and the ability to play Mozart on the piano. But it's mostly just a social game where you have to work with others over the internet towards a goal through the use of well-timed button presses and which ultimately ends up being "just for fun." And this is great, but only in small doses, not as something you do to the detriment of everything else. So, now that I look at it with a little more wisdom, the time wasting aspect seems more harmful to me than just a fun difficulty to overcome.

Now I prefer my games to be "hard" in different ways. One that presents a problem that must be overcome not with enormous patience or a willingness to be available 24 hours a day, but by wits and cooperation. I think the social aspect is better served not by putting its players through a grueling pace, but rather challenges that need a bit of thought and teamwork.

So that said, I'm interested in seeing how FFXIV turns out. I won't pin all my hopes and dreams on it. If it's a style that doesn't interest me, I simply won't play; there's no need for me to take it out on SE, or the fans, or whatever. But I do hope it's not all about just giving things away, or making you wait a really long time before it gives things away. There really needs to be more to it than just the time spent in and of itself.
#54 Dec 07 2012 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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^That's really all I was trying to say. I guess all the edu-talk was bogging down the message.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#55 Dec 07 2012 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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"If you're were a classic FFXI player, it was the ability to spend a lot of time playing the game, or being available for the opportune moment to improve your chances for success (e.g. waking up at 3 a.m. to possibly kill an HNM which may be claimed by someone else, may not even appear, may kill you even if you claim it, and may not drop the treasure you were hoping for--but even if it did--the treasure may go to someone else in your group who also wants it). "


umm that snot an example of difficulty in FFXI an example of difficullty is figuring out how to beat those mammets, in riverne, ooryu, the promy bosses.. or ever even the 18 man ark angels fight, with a standard arty setup (i.e no 3nin 3whm for mammets or manaburn for AA etc etc)
#56 Dec 07 2012 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
...the time wasting aspect seems more harmful to me than just a fun difficulty to overcome.


DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
umm that snot an example of difficulty in FFXI an example of difficullty is figuring out how to beat those mammets, in riverne, ooryu, the promy bosses.. or ever even the 18 man ark angels fight, with a standard arty setup (i.e no 3nin 3whm for mammets or manaburn for AA etc etc)


Xoie, I agree, but the point I was trying to make was more along the lines of what Duo was saying. He actually used literally the same examples I have used in other posts. I don't equate time sink to actual challenge. sh*tty drop rates and farming a bazillion of something or burning off huge latents isn't what's difficult. They were something put in the game to stretch it out. I never minded the time-sink aspect when I was younger because it was such a social game for me. I liked leveling in the party setting, especially if we were going to a "weird" camp that was off the beaten path. But I wasn't referring to time sinks when I was complaining about "too easy" or "something for nothing".

The fine line for me (and maybe you guys disagree) is that I don't think you should be able to cap a job in a week. I like stretched out leveling. The typical argument against this is that "you're preventing the people from doing content!! (i.e. endgame)". But if you remember FFXI at all you'll remember all the enormous amount of content that occurred WAY BEFORE LEVEL 75... that game had content out the wazoo. I enjoyed content for a long time without ever having a 75. Then I did "endgame content" when I was at level cap. There was no rush. I actually played the whole game. So the idea of a new game allowing you to cap out in a matter of weeks just seems retarded to me and poorly designed. Endgame isn't "the content", it's a portion of the content. Unless the game is poorly designed...

Edit: I wanted to mention the whole HNM thing too. I never fought (or fought over) an HNM. But I liked the fact that they existed. There was just something really romantic about the idea of some gnarly dragon popping once a week that could eat entire alliances. I remember sneaking down to the bottom of KRT on BST because "VRTRA IS UP!?!?!" one time and getting to see her. Then she ate me. And I wasn't mad at all to lose that xp. Not in the least. Because I got to see her. I didn't play the game to get stuff, I played it for moments like that. Where I actually felt excited to do something cool. I hope they still have HNM's in ARR. Maybe not for drops, but for a title or something. But don't exclude an element that makes the game exciting and unique, just rework it so that it serves its proper purpose. Please don't instance everything away. Then you've taken away my ability to quench my wanderlust!

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 10:19am by ChaChaJaJa
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#57 Dec 07 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I never fought (or fought over) an HNM. But I liked the fact that they existed. There was just something really romantic about the idea of some gnarly dragon popping once a week that could eat entire alliances. I remember sneaking down to the bottom of KRT on BST because "VRTRA IS UP!?!?!" one time and getting to see her. Then she ate me. And I wasn't mad at all to lose that xp. Not in the least. Because I got to see her. I didn't play the game to get stuff, I played it for moments like that.


Exactly. Things like that elevated something from a mere "zone" into what felt more akin to a mysterious world.
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#58 Dec 07 2012 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I never fought (or fought over) an HNM. But I liked the fact that they existed. There was just something really romantic about the idea of some gnarly dragon popping once a week that could eat entire alliances. I remember sneaking down to the bottom of KRT on BST because "VRTRA IS UP!?!?!" one time and getting to see her. Then she ate me. And I wasn't mad at all to lose that xp. Not in the least. Because I got to see her. I didn't play the game to get stuff, I played it for moments like that.


Exactly. Things like that elevated something from a mere "zone" into what felt more akin to a mysterious world.


They also led to a lot of bickering, arguing and drama. Not to be a downer here, but world spawn mobs on incredibly long timers are only romantic when they don't have any useful loot attached to them, or the loot they drop is 100%. There are just too many people who play these games that are completionist, elitist or otherwise that won't settle without beating that pinata til it pops.

8-10 HNMLS on a server fighting over a mob on a week long spawn timer with 1% drop rate... I'm no statistician but the probability you'd actually experience the fight, much less be granted the privilege of being the person everyone in your HNMLS now hates, is pretty horrific.
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#59 Dec 07 2012 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Even just for those of us who wanted to experience the fight, it was a completely raw deal. It was just another example of the challenge being in the wrong place. A lot of the HNMs became relatively easy to kill--the hard part was just getting the claim.

Quote:
The fine line for me (and maybe you guys disagree) is that I don't think you should be able to cap a job in a week. I like stretched out leveling. The typical argument against this is that "you're preventing the people from doing content!! (i.e. endgame)". But if you remember FFXI at all you'll remember all the enormous amount of content that occurred WAY BEFORE LEVEL 75... that game had content out the wazoo. I enjoyed content for a long time without ever having a 75. Then I did "endgame content" when I was at level cap. There was no rush. I actually played the whole game. So the idea of a new game allowing you to cap out in a matter of weeks just seems retarded to me and poorly designed. Endgame isn't "the content", it's a portion of the content. Unless the game is poorly designed...


I completely agree, and I think most other players do too. But FFXI definitely took it too far in places. It wasn't that it was necessarily bad that leveling took so long, but that most jobs didn't get to experience anything new in that long process. A lot of the jobs had almost the exact same abilities from level 50-75, which was MORE than half the leveling trek. And they spent it in the same zones, fighting the same monsters, because the areas were poorly balanced (Unfortunately, fixing area balance is much more difficult than simply reducing the TNL requirements). So it became a matter of doing the necessary but boring leveling to get to experience endgame content. And every time you died because your alliance wiped, that was just even more XP you had to earn back. But if you were playing BST, you were practically playing an entirely different game-- one that didn't suffer from a lot of those problems.

Point being, a longer leveling phase is not inherently better or worse, but it's definitely worse if there isn't enough viable content to support it. Included in that content are new abilities, new areas, monsters, etc... ones that actually require you to develop some new measure of skill and rise to new challenges.

And at the risk of beating a dead horse, I think the same things are basically true in education (though I think it's much harder to teach to those principles than it is to design an MMO that adheres to them. You're designing a lot more "content," you have a wider range of ability levels to work with, and you have to actually try to measure the growth of skill.)
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Dec 07 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Default
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I just realized, my posts always look shorter before I actually post them. There's a different word wrap cap, it seems. Just enough to add an extra line to every other paragraph or so.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Dec 07 2012 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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I got so much **** for taking a kirin's osode as a bard in one HNM. Never mind that it was actually a pretty good piece for bard and at the time was considerably easier than getting a Sha'ir Manteel (until Bahamut V2 was introduced, anyway.) Never mind that I had at least 10 points more than the next highest person in line because I came to all the runs. Nope, I was supposed to let that go to a "real" DD because my bard wasn't quite 75 yet (it was close, though) and because bards were all spoiled princesses anyway.

The butthurt lasted for months. And that was one of my better HNMs...
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#62 Dec 08 2012 at 4:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
I got so much sh*t for taking a kirin's osode as a bard in one HNM. Never mind that it was actually a pretty good piece for bard and at the time was considerably easier than getting a Sha'ir Manteel (until Bahamut V2 was introduced, anyway.) Never mind that I had at least 10 points more than the next highest person in line because I came to all the runs. Nope, I was supposed to let that go to a "real" DD because my bard wasn't quite 75 yet (it was close, though) and because bards were all spoiled princesses anyway.

The butthurt lasted for months. And that was one of my better HNMs...

I was the first in my LS to receive a KO for my RNG and MNK. We didn't really have a point system, but I was told I got it because I was helpful. I was the guy who posted maps with explanations on our website. I used paint to draw trails to all the notable NMs and trigger points. Carried extra oils and pots for the slackers who couldn't be bothered to prepare because I wanted to get in and get done in a reasonable amount of time.

A little more than 3 weeks later I missed one event and people started talking s#!t so I gave it back and left the LS.

The LS lead asked me to come back several times, but I couldn't bring myself to do it; especially considering that I found out it was given to a SAM. There aren't words to describe the sheer magnitude of force with which my palm was raised to my face Smiley: glare

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 5:18am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#63 Dec 08 2012 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Agree to disagree I guess. I never fought an actual Ground King. I didn't mind. I liked that they existed. I fought Kirin a number of times but never got an Osode. I did work for about 6 months to get myself a Byakko's Haidate and it took me 3 linkshells. It was probably my second favorite drop behind my Obow that I spent 48 actual hours of competitive camptime to get to drop.

All of the points you make about how these features were bad are valid. I don't disagree with how they can be "bad for the game". But I can't help how I feel about it. If you take away the really rare, really dangerous scary mob, you steal something from the texture of the game. If you put it in the bottom of an instance instead of in the free world, you turn it into fast food. I'm sorry, but I play the game for immersion. I don't get that from the dollar menu.

And none of the HNM's were easy to kill when they were implemented. They became easy to kill after people were merited and had great gear from years of content. I remember killing Hakutaku with a NIN, a WHM, a RDM, a BRD, and a BST when the level cap was 75. And I remember when alliances could barely beat him when the level cap was 75. What was the difference? Merits and gear. I remember hearing about Tiamat being killed on our server for the first time. That was a big deal. XI was an adventure for me. It was my own personal DragonLance series that I lived in when I wasn't living my IRL life. To me, it was epic, and a lot of what made it epic were things like HNM's. CoP, which was punishing and took months to complete. Seeing Kirin for the first time, Farming the eyes for my H cluster, having my brother, who was a high level alchemist synth my cluster. The long run down to the den where my ls only got like 3/5 hats because it was hard content at the time. I was immersed. It was fun, win or lose.

Maybe you guys have different goals, but most of your complaints seem to revolve around people being sh*tty, not the game being sh*tty. I agree- droprates were bad. Fix that. I agree, having desirable loot drop off a mob that pops once a week creates a bottleneck. So create the alternate route via BCNM or instance. But don't completely remove the random, rare spawn of @#%^ing dragons from a fantasy MMO. That's a HORRIBLE idea. If you disagree, that's fine, but like I said. I never got to "participate" but they made the game that much more exciting for me just by their existence...

And Kachi- I agree with your assessment of the 60-75 leveling grind. I had BST, WAR, and RNG at cap with merits, so I understand where you are coming from. I was just pointing out that there was a good amount of content that occurred before "endgame." Some really fun content at that.

.

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 9:06am by ChaChaJaJa
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#64 Dec 08 2012 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
especially considering that I found out it was given to a SAM. There aren't words to describe the sheer magnitude of force with which my palm was raised to my face Smiley: glare

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 5:18am by FilthMcNasty


Whats wrong with KO to a SAM? Smiley: sly
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#65 Dec 08 2012 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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yeah for some time it was best in slot for SAM WS. still, thats a sad, all too familiar story.


here's one of mine. its short. i didn't get byakko's haidate until THIS PAST SUMMER.



i remember seeing a ton drop to people who were not me, and who say, had a ninja they only used for solo play. i didn't really care though. i was always more obsessed with Salvage and the Usukane set for my mnk/nin/lolsam anyway. When did i finally finish my Usukane Body, for 5/5? THIS PAST SUMMER.

yeah, eff that game. but now i miss it again. mostly my friends. which is why i want ARR to succeed. cause then my friends will migrate from that godawful timesink of a game and i can have fun with them again.
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#66 Dec 08 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Arena versions of HNMs. This would help solve a lot of problems.

Cause some people aren't interested in waiting several hours for a chance for a monster to pop and compete against enemies. If the same results can be met having the LS collect a certain kind of item that could force pop said monster in an arena setting, WHILE people who have the desire for the hunt have the ability to do so, and they both shared the same loot pool - it would be great. Anything short of that, however, and you're just going to frustrate people.
#67 Dec 08 2012 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

All of the points you make about how these features were bad are valid. I don't disagree with how they can be "bad for the game". But I can't help how I feel about it. If you take away the really rare, really dangerous scary mob, you steal something from the texture of the game. If you put it in the bottom of an instance instead of in the free world, you turn it into fast food. I'm sorry, but I play the game for immersion. I don't get that from the dollar menu.


Well that's the thing-- you don't have to take those away from the game, and I don't think anybody wants to. It's the artificial bottlenecking that people hated. Very difficult to kill, with great loot? Wonderful! That's the high mark of good game design. Very difficult to kill, with great loot that barely ever drops, and it only shows up once a week for one group (or almost worse, you have to farm boring enemies that give almost no XP for hours just to get a pop item), AND you'll have to XP for an hour plus afterwards just to make up for all the times you died? @#%^ that. That's a game for masochists.

So I absolutely support leaving the big bads out in the open world, and keeping them hard to kill. I think most people do. But that's the fundamental question--are people not killing it because "it's scary, which adds texture to the game," or are people not killing it because ********** thing never shows up." Because in the latter, it's really not very scary at all. Sure, it adds to the suspense that you might not get it even if you have all the skill in the world. But if you need that level of investment just to get that kind of high risk:reward thrill, you better stay away from casinos, because you're already displaying the traits of a gambling addict.

Quote:
And Kachi- I agree with your assessment of the 60-75 leveling grind. I had BST, WAR, and RNG at cap with merits, so I understand where you are coming from. I was just pointing out that there was a good amount of content that occurred before "endgame." Some really fun content at that.

That's one of the things that peeves me off about FFXI. Yeah, there's a lot of fun content throughout the game. Most of it isn't properly incentivized. There will be a really fun quest that rewards you with 1000 gil. Then there will be another quest that sucks but gets you something with some actual stats. With half the purpose of the game being to progress your character, any player with sensible goals is going to make the boring content their priority, and that's nevermind all the community pressure to have good gear, even if it isn't fun. God, how many people got called a scrub on this very forum for saying that they played the game to have fun?

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 10:30am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#68 Dec 08 2012 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Arena versions of HNMs. This would help solve a lot of problems.

Cause some people aren't interested in waiting several hours for a chance for a monster to pop and compete against enemies. If the same results can be met having the LS collect a certain kind of item that could force pop said monster in an arena setting, WHILE people who have the desire for the hunt have the ability to do so, and they both shared the same loot pool - it would be great. Anything short of that, however, and you're just going to frustrate people.


They basically did this, but all they did was carry over what was wrong with the formula in the first place to the new venue. They kept a significant portion of the challenge in "getting to try the fight" instead of "this monster is really hard." So now you have the highly-contested open world HNM. And then you have the HNM that requires weeks/months of farming seals to get to fight in a burning circle. Either way, you make it an incredible pain for players to try (let alone retry) the fight.

There are certain people I've gathered over the years who appreciate the incredibly absurd level of bottlenecking that SE has practiced, but they're about 1% of the market if that. Those people seem to crave the thrill of camping enough to put up with the inevitable frustration that follows. Of those, 90% are still incredibly frustrated when they fail, or the loot doesn't drop. Even for the people that defend it, I've met one or two people in the entire time I played FFXI who actually seemed happy with the endgame scene's artificial restriction of the content.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Dec 08 2012 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Arena versions of HNMs. This would help solve a lot of problems.

Cause some people aren't interested in waiting several hours for a chance for a monster to pop and compete against enemies. If the same results can be met having the LS collect a certain kind of item that could force pop said monster in an arena setting, WHILE people who have the desire for the hunt have the ability to do so, and they both shared the same loot pool - it would be great. Anything short of that, however, and you're just going to frustrate people.


They basically did this, but all they did was carry over what was wrong with the formula in the first place to the new venue. They kept a significant portion of the challenge in "getting to try the fight" instead of "this monster is really hard." So now you have the highly-contested open world HNM. And then you have the HNM that requires weeks/months of farming seals to get to fight in a burning circle. Either way, you make it an incredible pain for players to try (let alone retry) the fight.

There are certain people I've gathered over the years who appreciate the incredibly absurd level of bottlenecking that SE has practiced, but they're about 1% of the market if that. Those people seem to crave the thrill of camping enough to put up with the inevitable frustration that follows. Of those, 90% are still incredibly frustrated when they fail, or the loot doesn't drop. Even for the people that defend it, I've met one or two people in the entire time I played FFXI who actually seemed happy with the endgame scene's artificial restriction of the content.



ok and whats wrong with that.. I mean look at how (in the past) we looked at ppl in FFXI who had relic weapons.. they were like vanadiel celebrities... its no longer "cool" to have the "blazing sword of justice" if EVERYONE can get it in a week.. Id say keep SOME extremely high status items that are hard to get in the game.. i mean in FFXI you didnt NEED a relic weapon.. you could function just fine without one.. so the casuals can stick to those.. which those of us who wanna be "celebrities" can go hunt down that uber weapon thats gonna take us a year to get.

i mean the uber weapons on FFXIV dont even sound that hard to get.. they sound like they require work.. and they might be hard to FFXIV standards but not hard in general.. on this very board I see multiple people claiming to have not one but MULTIPLE of these weapons.... how many ppl in FFXI had a relic weapons (let alone 2+) in its 2nd year of release?
#70 Dec 08 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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ok and whats wrong with that.. I mean look at how (in the past) we looked at ppl in FFXI who had relic weapons.. they were like vanadiel celebrities... its no longer "cool" to have the "blazing sword of justice" if EVERYONE can get it in a week.. Id say keep SOME extremely high status items that are hard to get in the game.. i mean in FFXI you didnt NEED a relic weapon.. you could function just fine without one.. so the casuals can stick to those.. which those of us who wanna be "celebrities" can go hunt down that uber weapon thats gonna take us a year to get.

i mean the uber weapons on FFXIV dont even sound that hard to get.. they sound like they require work.. and they might be hard to FFXIV standards but not hard in general.. on this very board I see multiple people claiming to have not one but MULTIPLE of these weapons.... how many ppl in FFXI had a relic weapons (let alone 2+) in its 2nd year of release?


Right, but they were celebrities like Paris Hilton is a celebrity. Meaning, they didn't necessarily have any particular skill to warrant their "success." They got lucky and/or played a really long time. Most of them had an entire LS that they owed it to. I'm totally fine with status weapons that signify great skill. But ultimately, those weapons are toys, and no, I don't think the "wealthy" kids should be the only ones who get to play with them (nevermind how many of them were actually bought with RL money).

If they were more a cosmetic bonus and didn't actually come with incredible effects, I might feel differently, but then, I wonder if they would put in the time to get them.

As for how many of them had 2+ in the second year of release, um... not many at all. The list of people who had any relics was incredibly short. (I'm not sure if you were trying to suggest that lots of people did have them, or if you were trying to suggest that it was cool how few people had them.)


Edited, Dec 8th 2012 11:29am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#71 Dec 08 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
ok and whats wrong with that.. I mean look at how (in the past) we looked at ppl in FFXI who had relic weapons.. they were like vanadiel celebrities... its no longer "cool" to have the "blazing sword of justice" if EVERYONE can get it in a week.. Id say keep SOME extremely high status items that are hard to get in the game.. i mean in FFXI you didnt NEED a relic weapon.. you could function just fine without one.. so the casuals can stick to those.. which those of us who wanna be "celebrities" can go hunt down that uber weapon thats gonna take us a year to get.

i mean the uber weapons on FFXIV dont even sound that hard to get.. they sound like they require work.. and they might be hard to FFXIV standards but not hard in general.. on this very board I see multiple people claiming to have not one but MULTIPLE of these weapons.... how many ppl in FFXI had a relic weapons (let alone 2+) in its 2nd year of release?


Right, but they were celebrities like Paris Hilton is a celebrity. Meaning, they didn't necessarily have any particular skill to warrant their "success." They got lucky and/or played a really long time. Most of them had an entire LS that they owed it to. I'm totally fine with status weapons that signify great skill. But ultimately, those weapons are toys, and no, I don't think the "wealthy" kids should be the only ones who get to play with them (nevermind how many of them were actually bought with RL money).

If they were more a cosmetic bonus and didn't actually come with incredible effects, I might feel differently, but then, I wonder if they would put in the time to get them.

As for how many of them had 2+ in the second year of release, um... not many at all. The list of people who had any relics was incredibly short. (I'm not sure if you were trying to suggest that lots of people did have them, or if you were trying to suggest that it was cool how few people had them.)


Edited, Dec 8th 2012 11:29am by Kachi




i was suggesting that not many ppl had them in that timespan while ffxiv has been out 2 years and people on these very boards have MORE THAN ONE of teh FFXIV equivalent of a relic weapon which just proves that even if "relics" on FFXIV are hard to get theyre not FFXI hard.

As for that whole Paris Hilton thing.. you dont take YEARS to get a relic weapon buying gil... you should have it in months.. so im sure there are SOME (like myself) who actually worked their *** off for theirs, as far as it not being a show of skill.. so fighting those bcd attestation nms or the weapons in xarcabard arent hard.. must be considering how reluctant some ppl were to do them back then.... so being able to get that far shows SOME skill.. i mean if it required so skill that means a pickup dynamis group of 30 unskilled payers can beat those things too right?

if there were a cosmetic bonus that didnt come with any effect of course NO ONE would get them... who wants to work for a year+ getting a weapon just to say "my sword is a different color/design than everyone elses, but nothing more"?


if youre gonna make a weapon that takes a year+ to get make it worth the work.. and getting a weapon that does nothing but looks prettier than everyone elses is NOT worth the time and effort.
#72 Dec 08 2012 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
if youre gonna make a weapon that takes a year+ to get make it worth the work.. and getting a weapon that does nothing but looks prettier than everyone elses is NOT worth the time and effort.


Which brings the question as to why there should be a single element that requires a year+ to make in the first place. There's a certain extent in which the content fails to be an achievement, and begins to simply become a co-out to encourage players to stay subscribed longer.

I would prefer a household of unique items, each moderately difficult to diffciult, than a single 'god weapon' that was down right exhasperating to get.

Relics in FFXI were overvalued, statisticly and socially. It often leads me to beleive that status symbols should be more reserved to temporary powers such as harnessing the Primals.

That's not to take away from the existence of Relics or Legendary weapons all together, but to simply tone them down so that other content persuits can shine.

Personally I really do hope that this game does not boil down into "Get this weapon, it's the best in the game for your class." And instead are given a choice of a few equally powerful ones to pursue.
#73 Dec 08 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Quote:
if youre gonna make a weapon that takes a year+ to get make it worth the work.. and getting a weapon that does nothing but looks prettier than everyone elses is NOT worth the time and effort.


Which brings the question as to why there should be a single element that requires a year+ to make in the first place. There's a certain extent in which the content fails to be an achievement, and begins to simply become a co-out to encourage players to stay subscribed longer.

I would prefer a household of unique items, each moderately difficult to diffciult, than a single 'god weapon' that was down right exhasperating to get.

Relics in FFXI were overvalued, statisticly and socially. It often leads me to beleive that status symbols should be more reserved to temporary powers such as harnessing the Primals.

That's not to take away from the existence of Relics or Legendary weapons all together, but to simply tone them down so that other content persuits can shine.

Personally I really do hope that this game does not boil down into "Get this weapon, it's the best in the game for your class." And instead are given a choice of a few equally powerful ones to pursue.



which is why i said before.. ppl who dont wanna do that kinda work shouldnt get em... they dont HAVE too.. there are some ppl who play MMOs for years and never hit max level.. because they play for different reasons. Point being those of us who want "god" weapons and wanna take a year to get em should have that option while those who just wanna play casually should have the option to do so as well.. not EVERYONE has to play to try to be the best... but the handful who want too should have an option that makes the journey quite epic
#74 Dec 08 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
i was suggesting that not many ppl had them in that timespan while ffxiv has been out 2 years and people on these very boards have MORE THAN ONE of teh FFXIV equivalent of a relic weapon which just proves that even if "relics" on FFXIV are hard to get theyre not FFXI hard.

As for that whole Paris Hilton thing.. you dont take YEARS to get a relic weapon buying gil... you should have it in months.. so im sure there are SOME (like myself) who actually worked their *** off for theirs, as far as it not being a show of skill.. so fighting those bcd attestation nms or the weapons in xarcabard arent hard.. must be considering how reluctant some ppl were to do them back then.... so being able to get that far shows SOME skill.. i mean if it required so skill that means a pickup dynamis group of 30 unskilled payers can beat those things too right?


Right, well you're kind of supporting my point. The biggest hurdle in getting a relic was collecting the currency. Now, if the biggest hurdle were in overcoming the NMs, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. Of course, you have to consider that beating them isn't necessarily a reflection of YOUR skill, but your alliance. So, there's very little reflection of personal skill in obtaining a FFXI relic weapon, and that would be true even if there were no currency requirements.

Quote:
if there were a cosmetic bonus that didnt come with any effect of course NO ONE would get them... who wants to work for a year+ getting a weapon just to say "my sword is a different color/design than everyone elses, but nothing more"?

if youre gonna make a weapon that takes a year+ to get make it worth the work.. and getting a weapon that does nothing but looks prettier than everyone elses is NOT worth the time and effort.


Well, I don't know if that's entirely true. I mean, GW2 is basically a Barbie dress-up game compared to FFXI. It was really pretty easy to get the "best" equipment, but people still worked towards getting their character to look the way they want. Now, if it took a year to get that stuff, then yeah, it would at least have to look pretty awesome. But my point is, there have been many games over the years which have proved that players will work ridiculously hard for items which serve no purpose other than to be status symbols or to look cool.

Not that I necessarily agree with that, either.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 Dec 08 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
i was suggesting that not many ppl had them in that timespan while ffxiv has been out 2 years and people on these very boards have MORE THAN ONE of teh FFXIV equivalent of a relic weapon which just proves that even if "relics" on FFXIV are hard to get theyre not FFXI hard.

As for that whole Paris Hilton thing.. you dont take YEARS to get a relic weapon buying gil... you should have it in months.. so im sure there are SOME (like myself) who actually worked their *** off for theirs, as far as it not being a show of skill.. so fighting those bcd attestation nms or the weapons in xarcabard arent hard.. must be considering how reluctant some ppl were to do them back then.... so being able to get that far shows SOME skill.. i mean if it required so skill that means a pickup dynamis group of 30 unskilled payers can beat those things too right?


Right, well you're kind of supporting my point. The biggest hurdle in getting a relic was collecting the currency. Now, if the biggest hurdle were in overcoming the NMs, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. Of course, you have to consider that beating them isn't necessarily a reflection of YOUR skill, but your alliance. So, there's very little reflection of personal skill in obtaining a FFXI relic weapon, and that would be true even if there were no currency requirements.

Quote:
if there were a cosmetic bonus that didnt come with any effect of course NO ONE would get them... who wants to work for a year+ getting a weapon just to say "my sword is a different color/design than everyone elses, but nothing more"?

if youre gonna make a weapon that takes a year+ to get make it worth the work.. and getting a weapon that does nothing but looks prettier than everyone elses is NOT worth the time and effort.


Well, I don't know if that's entirely true. I mean, GW2 is basically a Barbie dress-up game compared to FFXI. It was really pretty easy to get the "best" equipment, but people still worked towards getting their character to look the way they want. Now, if it took a year to get that stuff, then yeah, it would at least have to look pretty awesome. But my point is, there have been many games over the years which have proved that players will work ridiculously hard for items which serve no purpose other than to be status symbols or to look cool.

Not that I necessarily agree with that, either.



it says nothing about your individual skill but it says alot about your leadership ability, tactical knowledge and strategy.. I mean you had to have and lead a solid group to pull that off getting (or helping) ppl get to that level of skill is a skill within itself... not everyone can lead an army/team

as for the cosmetic thing.. well that depends.. if the cosmetic was using to make my "super l33t godly weapon" look different.. so basically same stats but unique look THEN i could understand ppl doing that... but taking a year to get something that has no stats at all and just looks pretty over something that may be ugly but turns you into a powerhouse.. is just plain silly..


i was never one of those guys who had a problem sacrificing looks for effectiveness in battle/.. now if it was like DCUO where i get uber weapons/armor but lock in the armor/weapon style from previous armor/weapon that i thought looked cool then thats a different story
#76 Dec 09 2012 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
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i'll be honest, when i heard that the GW2 "relics" were just nifty looking weapons with identical stats to the relatively easy-to-obtain top tier weapons, I had two thoughts.

1. Thats a really cool idea.

2. I have no interest in getting one of those.

On the other hand, I re subbed to XIV one month before shutdown just to level my Dragoon up to cap and get full AF only because it looks cooler than any armor in any game ever. So apparently cosmetic rewards do motivate me, but only when they aren't supposed to be cosmetic rewards. If that didn't make sense, its because i am about to pass out on my keyboard.
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#77 Dec 09 2012 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
i'll be honest, when i heard that the GW2 "relics" were just nifty looking weapons with identical stats to the relatively easy-to-obtain top tier weapons, I had two thoughts.

1. Thats a really cool idea.

2. I have no interest in getting one of those.

On the other hand, I re subbed to XIV one month before shutdown just to level my Dragoon up to cap and get full AF only because it looks cooler than any armor in any game ever. So apparently cosmetic rewards do motivate me, but only when they aren't supposed to be cosmetic rewards. If that didn't make sense, its because i am about to pass out on my keyboard.


I had the same thoughts, actually. I couldn't even get myself to dole out for some of the cheaper but equally cool weapon skins. But I think part of the issue here is, when you get to endgame... well, you're done. What was I going to do with a relic? I'd already have done nearly everything in the game. And the sad thing is that that had a lot less to do with a lack of content than a very simple design flaw that could be easily fixed: lack of rewards. The equipment options in GW2 are pitiful. There aren't any cool effects (aside from a very small number of sigils). Nothing to make alternative setups viable. ****, there's not really even much quibbling over whether weapon X or Y is better. There are no opportunities for horizontal advancement. Once you get the top, you have nowhere else to go.

Actually, the guy who designed the weapons/items in GW2 was the one who came up with that latest update, because he acknowledged the problem and that was his fix. Which I have to say, after spending the month before griping at what a shoddy job the item designer did, did not surprise me in the least when it turned out to be lackluster.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#78 Dec 09 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Would like to say that when I say "I" finished a relic weapon, it means I led a Dynamis linkshell that put forth several years of effort into it. Near the end, we got so good at farming we decided to share the wealth and switched to "once we're clear, all coins are free lot" - this model encouraged people to not **** around getting to the clear, clear the zone early for anyone that needed it, and stick around for the rest of the run because they'd probably walk off with 100K of coins for their efforts. The LS leaders, like myself, would usually buy any coins we needed from people who weren't collecting them on their own, and conversely sell any of the ones we'd collected prior to the clear to each other and to others that needed.

I wish we had used that model earlier, but back in 2006 when I became an officer, clearing a Dynamis zone was still not a guarantee, and we'd pretty much take a loss on hourglasses for the CoP zones.

Then SE revamped Dynamis in 2011, and now a BST/DNC can solo a relic weapon in 2 hours a day over the course of three months. Smiley: laugh We stopped doing Dynamis once it became clear it was bad economics to do it in a group any more.

For about a year, I lent my shiny Ghorn talents to Abyssea, so the same LS members who worked to help me finish it in Dynamis at least got the benefits of a relic bard. (Most of them still do, although the linkshell itself dissolved about a month ago.)

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 11:21am by catwho
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#79 Dec 11 2012 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

I wanna be that guy thats the first to beat xyz mob that everyone got obliterated by for months or years before someone finally took it down


That mmo would fail, because any mmo that doesn't offer pleasure/happiness/fun to the majority of its players won't keep them. By definition, an mmo that caters to special snowflakes who need to prove themselves in a video game, is not going to be fun for most people. Which means it won't keep subscribers. Which means it will be grindy and light on content and won't last long.

Let's face it, if the only way you can get joy in a video game is if others can't enjoy it - you are exactly the kind of subscriber that game companies shouldn't go after. MMOs shouldn't be zero-sum games if the goal the company is striving for is to be successful.

That's not to say there can't be some challenge, but content that takes "months or years" before it is beat is terrible content.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#80 Dec 11 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

I wanna be that guy thats the first to beat xyz mob that everyone got obliterated by for months or years before someone finally took it down


That mmo would fail, because any mmo that doesn't offer pleasure/happiness/fun to the majority of its players won't keep them. By definition, an mmo that caters to special snowflakes who need to prove themselves in a video game, is not going to be fun for most people. Which means it won't keep subscribers. Which means it will be grindy and light on content and won't last long.

Let's face it, if the only way you can get joy in a video game is if others can't enjoy it - you are exactly the kind of subscriber that game companies shouldn't go after. MMOs shouldn't be zero-sum games if the goal the company is striving for is to be successful.

That's not to say there can't be some challenge, but content that takes "months or years" before it is beat is terrible content.



Umm if thats the case then why didnt FFXI fail? Absolute Virtue was the very type of monster I describe.. how many years was it before he could be taken down?

or what about the original Everquest where the devs made a mob that was designed to be unbeatable that the entire server coordinated and bound together and fought for hours to beat the unbeatable.

wanting SOME epic/hard fights =/= wanting ALL fights to be epic/hard

I mean Absolute Virtue is just one of the maybe three examples of monsters on FFXI i cann use that one... so 3 monsters out of the 100000 different ones you can fight.. yet that was enough to make me happy and play for 8 years.

So wanting 2-3 GOOD fights out of a million makes me "you are exactly the kind of subscriber that game companies shouldn't go after"? nice logic
#81 Dec 11 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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The reason XI and everquest were able to get away with crap like that is they came out a decade ago or more, when there were not a lot of choices and the genre was a lot newer and people were willing to put up with more crap.

XI also took a lot of flack for AV, and I don't know if you've noticed but way more people talk about it as a negative than as a positive.

That simply wouldn't fly these days, and devs should hopefully realize that their time is better spent developing content for 1000s and 1000s of players, not the 10 or 20 that think the only way a game can be fun is if they are the only ones able to enjoy it.

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 11:10am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#82 Dec 11 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Not to mention, if that's the kind of game you want, then you already have it. I'd prefer if we move the genre forward, rather than keep making games that appeal to the people who are already plenty happy with them. A diverse marketplace is better for everybody.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#83 Dec 11 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Not to mention, if that's the kind of game you want, then you already have it. I'd prefer if we move the genre forward, rather than keep making games that appeal to the people who are already plenty happy with them. A diverse marketplace is better for everybody.



even if i DID already have it Id like a graphical upgrade.. also FFXI is a far cry from what it USED to be.. so no i dont already have it lol

As for ppl putting up with that "crap" a decade ago because it was their only choice... now thats funny because this day and age ppl complain that FPSs are overcrowding and unchanging every year..

so if ppl are tired of same old same old and want changes.. we have a million cookie cutter MMOs already that are trying to emulate WoWs "super casual" play style.. so by that logic ppl should WELCOME something that trues to be different (i.e an mmo that tales SOME degree of skill)

ALso if ppl cant handle difficult why does Demon/Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden get the praise they do because of its -shocked- DIFFICULTY?

and back to the "only choice" part.. its ironic you say that for two reasons:

1) like i said earlier PCs have hundreds of MMOs... if FFXIV wanted to be hardcaore and you didnt like it you have a hundred other choices.. go play those

2) like my case with FFXI.. I dont game on PC only console so as far as MMOs went like it rr not FFXI WAS my only choice.. playing Wow (even if i WANTED too, wasnt an option to me) the same could be said about those who wanna play an mmo but only have a PS3... if they didnt like FFXIV hardcoreness what other option do they have DC universe online -laughs- Free Realms? -laughs hysterically- so yeah.

and lets talk about F2P mmos that are only worthwhile if youre spending money on items while playing them... Thats the exact OPPOSITE of what a casual player would do yet I bet more than half the ppl playing them are spending money.

and lastly Olorinus.. youre basically defending casual games yet youre on alla and have over 7000 posts... you sound like an EXTREMELY casual gamer to me -obvious sarcasm-

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 2:19pm by DuoMaxwellxx
#84 Dec 11 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I'll give you this: If our choices are between a FFXI remake and a WoW remake, I won't be playing the game either way.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#85 Dec 11 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Well, I'll give you this: If our choices are between a FFXI remake and a WoW remake, I won't be playing the game either way.


similar to FFXI with better graphics =/= FFXI remake.. if anything the proper coin for that would be "spiritual sequel"

Also IF it did fall under remake then what would you call FFXIV if not an FFXI or WoW remake? considering how badly its trying to be WoW?
#86 Dec 11 2012 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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From what all I know of it in its current and former iterations, I'd call it an unholy blend of the two. I wasn't speaking of a remake literally, you realize. Spiritual successor, remake, whatever. Lacking in any redeeming originality, let's say.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#87 Dec 11 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

I wanna be that guy thats the first to beat xyz mob that everyone got obliterated by for months or years before someone finally took it down


That mmo would fail, because any mmo that doesn't offer pleasure/happiness/fun to the majority of its players won't keep them. By definition, an mmo that caters to special snowflakes who need to prove themselves in a video game, is not going to be fun for most people. Which means it won't keep subscribers. Which means it will be grindy and light on content and won't last long.

Let's face it, if the only way you can get joy in a video game is if others can't enjoy it - you are exactly the kind of subscriber that game companies shouldn't go after. MMOs shouldn't be zero-sum games if the goal the company is striving for is to be successful.

That's not to say there can't be some challenge, but content that takes "months or years" before it is beat is terrible content.



Umm if thats the case then why didnt FFXI fail? Absolute Virtue was the very type of monster I describe.. how many years was it before he could be taken down?

or what about the original Everquest where the devs made a mob that was designed to be unbeatable that the entire server coordinated and bound together and fought for hours to beat the unbeatable.

wanting SOME epic/hard fights =/= wanting ALL fights to be epic/hard

I mean Absolute Virtue is just one of the maybe three examples of monsters on FFXI i cann use that one... so 3 monsters out of the 100000 different ones you can fight.. yet that was enough to make me happy and play for 8 years.

So wanting 2-3 GOOD fights out of a million makes me "you are exactly the kind of subscriber that game companies shouldn't go after"? nice logic


Count me in as one of those 20-30 players that would absolutely LOVE to see 3-4 mega beasts that would demand large companies to take down. Kind of reminds me also of that festival mithra that took forever to take down. The satisfaction was tremendous. The nothing but gold carp drop? Not so much /laughs.

This argument is a bit of a sore spot for me because I actually love(d) EQ and XI. I've messed around with ealier GW's an consider myself a decent on/off Eve fan. That's the bulk of my experience so perhaps grinding doesn't grind my teeth as it seems to do so many. I think the book burns in XI are blasphemy. I tried upon my return and it felt cheap and lazy. Like power leveling would make me feel. The genre always felt like it was meant to be somewhat of a time sink. I can't help but feel the "majority" are wanting fast food within a genre that was never meant to BE fast food. That's my less eloquent opinion at least.
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#88 Dec 11 2012 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

and lastly Olorinus.. youre basically defending casual games yet youre on alla and have over 7000 posts... you sound like an EXTREMELY casual gamer to me -obvious sarcasm-


I am extremely casual, actually. I happen to play a lot of games (cause I get bored easily, which is part of what makes me a casual player) but I am not hardcore in any of them. I don't have much patience for gimmicks or "nintendo hard" crap. I'm the person who will stop playing a game if it abuses cheap mechanics to create the illusion of being difficult.

I also work full time, have a partner who doesn't game, and several hobbies besides gaming (reading, writing, making art, birding etc.). I'm not sure what "number of posts on a message board" has to do with how casual or not casual of a gamer I am.

And even if I played a lot of gaming hours, so what if I advocate for content to be casual? Even if I was no-lifing it, there is no rule that says I can't advocate for games to be casual so I can play more than one of them.

For example, I actually have a real soft spot for FFXI, and I love my character so I don't ever want to give it up. I'd love it if both XI and XIV were more tuned towards casuals so I can reasonably play them both even with my limited hours.

And... given that going in that direction has the potential to make SE *more* money - I do hope they go in that direction. That's a completely reasonable thing to hope. What I don't think is reasonable is for folks to push for content that everyone who pays can't access. That's asinine. I don't care if you have endless hours of playtime, the majority of people don't. Rather than demanding the game be made more grindy, why don't you just pick up another game on the side?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#89 Dec 11 2012 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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what does posts have to do with casualness? I dont know any casual players that post on a gaming message board so much theyd have 7000+ posts.. heck i know gamers who dont even know what gamefaqs is for example.

As for content youre paying for but cant access... no such thing.. theres is NO content EVERYONE cant access.. it all comes down to whether or not THEY wanna dedicate time to doing it.. but its there and its achievable if they decide too.. lastly ist the NATURE of an mmo.. to keep you paying. how does "making content so easy you can do everything in 3 months" gonna keep ppl playing and paying them for years>? there only way out of that is to introduce new content every week (or month) lol and that aint happening.
#90 Dec 11 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was hardcore in FFXI for years. Then I started graduate school and my play time plummeted. I went from two HNM's beloved pet bard to a "eh, it's Abyssea night, better log on" once or twice a week. Even with this relatively casual style, I got all 20 jobs to 99, mostly in long stretches of Sunday afternoon in between semesters.

I'm not sure I want to go back to that sort of hardcore mentality - where I can have no hobbies besides one video game. There are other things to do in life. I mean, I'm making gingerbread cake pops for my office for tomorrow right now. There's no conceivable way I could do that while camping a giant turtle, or leading a Dynamis run, or grinding out a VW run x6 like people like to do.... But I can certainly do it while putzing around, killing crap solo.
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FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
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#91 Dec 11 2012 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
I was hardcore in FFXI for years. Then I started graduate school and my play time plummeted. I went from two HNM's beloved pet bard to a "eh, it's Abyssea night, better log on" once or twice a week. Even with this relatively casual style, I got all 20 jobs to 99, mostly in long stretches of Sunday afternoon in between semesters.

I'm not sure I want to go back to that sort of hardcore mentality - where I can have no hobbies besides one video game. There are other things to do in life. I mean, I'm making gingerbread cake pops for my office for tomorrow right now. There's no conceivable way I could do that while camping a giant turtle, or leading a Dynamis run, or grinding out a VW run x6 like people like to do.... But I can certainly do it while putzing around, killing crap solo.



incorrect, there are ppl with jobs kids and husbands/wives that do those things... and get gear/stuff they want.. the difference is they cant do it EVERY night/all the time.. so what someoen whos there 24/7 might get in a month.. that other person would take 3-6 months to get.. but the end result is still the same... its still in their capability to do.
#92 Dec 11 2012 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
catwho wrote:
I was hardcore in FFXI for years. Then I started graduate school and my play time plummeted. I went from two HNM's beloved pet bard to a "eh, it's Abyssea night, better log on" once or twice a week. Even with this relatively casual style, I got all 20 jobs to 99, mostly in long stretches of Sunday afternoon in between semesters.

I'm not sure I want to go back to that sort of hardcore mentality - where I can have no hobbies besides one video game. There are other things to do in life. I mean, I'm making gingerbread cake pops for my office for tomorrow right now. There's no conceivable way I could do that while camping a giant turtle, or leading a Dynamis run, or grinding out a VW run x6 like people like to do.... But I can certainly do it while putzing around, killing crap solo.



incorrect, there are ppl with jobs kids and husbands/wives that do those things... and get gear/stuff they want.. the difference is they cant do it EVERY night/all the time.. so what someoen whos there 24/7 might get in a month.. that other person would take 3-6 months to get.. but the end result is still the same... its still in their capability to do.


The top HNMs don't believe in you having lives. The ones that I was in were not so bad, but some of the most elitest jerk ones practically make you bring a doctor's note if you have to miss a run.

____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#93 Dec 11 2012 at 10:14 PM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
catwho wrote:
I was hardcore in FFXI for years. Then I started graduate school and my play time plummeted. I went from two HNM's beloved pet bard to a "eh, it's Abyssea night, better log on" once or twice a week. Even with this relatively casual style, I got all 20 jobs to 99, mostly in long stretches of Sunday afternoon in between semesters.

I'm not sure I want to go back to that sort of hardcore mentality - where I can have no hobbies besides one video game. There are other things to do in life. I mean, I'm making gingerbread cake pops for my office for tomorrow right now. There's no conceivable way I could do that while camping a giant turtle, or leading a Dynamis run, or grinding out a VW run x6 like people like to do.... But I can certainly do it while putzing around, killing crap solo.



incorrect, there are ppl with jobs kids and husbands/wives that do those things... and get gear/stuff they want.. the difference is they cant do it EVERY night/all the time.. so what someoen whos there 24/7 might get in a month.. that other person would take 3-6 months to get.. but the end result is still the same... its still in their capability to do.


The top HNMs don't believe in you having lives. The ones that I was in were not so bad, but some of the most elitest jerk ones practically make you bring a doctor's note if you have to miss a run.




oh trust me i know that... ive been in plenty.. including one where a phone number was required and theyd call you at 3am if they need you online... to which i give em fair warning... "if im not ALREADY on at 3am.. if you call me waking me up I can ASSURE you its gonna end with you being cursed out and hung up on" and well.. the entire time i was in that ls my phone never rung once (at least not from anyone in FFXI lol) but i was also a thf... so i guess TH although nice isnt as "important" as a whm/tank/brd/rdm so theyd never HAVE to call me anyway i guess... my friend who was a whm wasnt so lucky...


on ls member on a non ls related event was running around in temple of uggahlephi.. died in teh den of rancor.... and called him (the whm) at 2am to Raise him because he didnt wanna HP and lose exp.. keep in mind this wasnt even an LS event.. just a random members doing who knows what/exploring.. and the sad part is.. my friend actually got outta bed and did it lmao
#94 Dec 12 2012 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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Just so we're clear here, a casual game does not necessarily mean that you play it for a little while and then you've done everything in the game. It just means there aren't mechanics where you HAVE to play for very long periods of time to participate, and generally there aren't large barriers to playing.

Quote:
As for content youre paying for but cant access... no such thing.. theres is NO content EVERYONE cant access.. it all comes down to whether or not THEY wanna dedicate time to doing it.. but its there and its achievable if they decide too.. lastly ist the NATURE of an mmo.. to keep you paying. how does "making content so easy you can do everything in 3 months" gonna keep ppl playing and paying them for years>? there only way out of that is to introduce new content every week (or month) lol and that aint happening.


This is the same fallacious argument that people make about the wealthy-- EVERYONE can be wealthy. No, everyone can't be wealthy. Any one person COULD be wealthy, but everyone cannot. It was the same with content in FFXI. There were monsters that any person could theoretically fight, but it was impossible for everyone to fight. Usually, it was only those who played the most who could actually participate in those events.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Dec 12 2012 at 8:56 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Just so we're clear here, a casual game does not necessarily mean that you play it for a little while and then you've done everything in the game. It just means there aren't mechanics where you HAVE to play for very long periods of time to participate, and generally there aren't large barriers to playing.

Quote:
As for content youre paying for but cant access... no such thing.. theres is NO content EVERYONE cant access.. it all comes down to whether or not THEY wanna dedicate time to doing it.. but its there and its achievable if they decide too.. lastly ist the NATURE of an mmo.. to keep you paying. how does "making content so easy you can do everything in 3 months" gonna keep ppl playing and paying them for years>? there only way out of that is to introduce new content every week (or month) lol and that aint happening.


This is the same fallacious argument that people make about the wealthy-- EVERYONE can be wealthy. No, everyone can't be wealthy. Any one person COULD be wealthy, but everyone cannot. It was the same with content in FFXI. There were monsters that any person could theoretically fight, but it was impossible for everyone to fight. Usually, it was only those who played the most who could actually participate in those events.




incorrect sure not EVERYONE cant be bill gates or oprah.. whoever things that is an idiot.. but EVERYONE (in the US at least.. i cant speak for other countries as i dont live in em) should make enough money to not be homeless/on the streets (only exceptions being natural disaster/fire etc etc destroying your home and everything you had, laziness or mental/physical illness and with the last exception if youre mentally/physically ill to the point where you cant take care of yourself you shouldnt be on you own to begin with so technically that SHOULDNT be an issue either), even though the economy sucks and jobs are scares, with this like government assistance, housing assistance (section A) all the tools you need are there, the only thing holding you back is getting off your **** and taking them.. my grandma for example.. shes almost 70.. shes never filled out a tax return (i.e never had a job) a day in her life... shes down under the table jobs but not REAL ones... yet shes always had her own place and Ive never seen her on the streets. sure they werent the best places or in the best neighborhoods.. but the structure/walls were sound and the bills got paid.. so if she can do it whats everyone elses excuse i say.

As for a casual game.. Im more referring to a casual GAMER.. and to me thats someone who maybe player -2 hours a day.. and not even everyday, who plays but isnt very good and doesnt try to be.. for example in a fighting game he/she either doesnt know how to play and just mashes buttons or at least knows the basics but cant string together the more complex combos, plays games on easy without even TRYING to see if they can handle the default difficulty first (and if they do try they cant handle it lol), doesn't go after trophies/achievements, will use a strategy guide from the second they start as opposed to at least TRYIING to figure things out on their own and THEN consult one once theyve tried and still got stuck, or play motion controlled games that take about as much skill as pointing remote at the tv and changing the channel.. because theyre so easy that even my grandma could do it (Wii Sports), or dont visit gaming website/message boards to the point where theyd even have 7000 or even 1000+ posts.

Those are some of my definitions of a casual gamer.. a casual GAME would be a game thats made to accommodate those kinda ppl. i.e you only got 6 hours a week to play? make the game so that you can play 15 minutes a day and still accomplish a lot, or set things where even when your logged out your character is st ill leveling.gaining experience (WoW), or lets make the game so easy no one would quit from frustration.

and the funny part is MOST "hard" games arent actually hard.. they just require, you to take a few minutes or hours to learn what youre doing and what NOT to do. For example Resonance of Fate is said to be hard... I played it and it snot really hard at all it just has a STEEP learning curve.. its hard because you dont know what youre doing and the tutorial is crap... so youll die a lot at the beginning.. once youve figured out the battle system and mastered the basics the game is then a complete joke and youre killing stuff 50 l(literally) levels higher than you with ease.

Another example Dark/Demon Souls everyone "worships" how hard that game is... I played it expecting to die every 5 mins and that wasnt the case... the game only requires PATIENCE if you move slowly (walk dont run) pay attention to your surroundings, and keep your shield up 100$ of the time, death will come... but not very often.. I died maybe 10 times total in those games.. they just require patience, slow pace, and looking over your shoulder every 5 minutes. Its not my fault ppl (usually casuals) thing the game s TOO difficult and give yup from frustration because they wanna run through it swinging their sword wildly like theyre playing dynasty warriors or Zelda

Now games that actually ARE hard that I could understand ppl giving up on would be ninja gaiden or devil may cry 3..even on default difficulty Ive died 10+ times on just ONE boss in those games.. not counting how many times i musta died just making it to the end and beating them as those games actually require skill and reflexes and not just careful/slow gameplay. Difference with me is I dont mind losing.. in fact I like it, as it makes me wanna win that much more, finally getting over that wall that seems to get taller every time you fail to climb it gives you a huge surge of accomplishment, relief and confidence, you learn a lot more from defeat than you do from victory, and i actually like to work for what I get instead of having everything handed to me on a silver platter with little to no effort, whether it be my real life or my virtual life. A car you poured your blood, sweat and tears into working and saving up for months or years to get feels a lot better than one that was just given to you does it not? The one you worked for your more liable to treat with the utmost care like it was your own child, because of all the crap you had to go through to get it youd be damned if you let anything happen to it am I right or am i not? Some ppl would even get to the point where they wouldnt even wanna drive the thing for fear of getting a scratch on it and just stick to rentals or that car mommy and daddy bought em when they were in high school lol.

Because something you worked hard for feels better than something you didnt or worked less for... Im sure that relic weapon you took 1+ years to get feels a lot better than that AF weapon you took 2 hours to finish a quest and pick up right? or that thief's knife you farmed and saved up 7 million gil (back when they costed that much) to buy off an RMT because you knew there was no way youd out claim their bots and even if you could the likelihood of getting drop was so low that making the money was faster. made you feel great when you got it right? walking down Jeuno everyone checking you and saying "omg he/she has a thief knife" (back when having one was cool anyway lol) right? come on.. tell me im wrong.
#96 Dec 12 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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I almost never say this, but tl;dr.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#97 Dec 12 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I almost never say this, but tl;dr.



I never say it at all... I just dont read and dont post/reply... pretty simple concept really
#98 Dec 12 2012 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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If only you could explain all simple concepts with such brevity Smiley: lol
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#99 Dec 12 2012 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Duo, you seem to have this assumption that casuals are mouth-breathing idiots that'll walk off a cliff if the game doesn't hold their hand and defaults to the easiest setting because they can't get past the tutorial stage.

Quote:
As for a casual game.. Im more referring to a casual GAMER.. and to me thats someone who maybe player -2 hours a day.. and not even everyday, who plays but isnt very good and doesnt try to be.. for example in a fighting game he/she either doesnt know how to play and just mashes buttons or at least knows the basics but cant string together the more complex combos, plays games on easy without even TRYING to see if they can handle the default difficulty first (and if they do try they cant handle it lol), doesn't go after trophies/achievements, will use a strategy guide from the second they start as opposed to at least TRYIING to figure things out on their own and THEN consult one once theyve tried and still got stuck, or play motion controlled games that take about as much skill as pointing remote at the tv and changing the channel.. because theyre so easy that even my grandma could do it (Wii Sports), or dont visit gaming website/message boards to the point where theyd even have 7000 or even 1000+ posts.


Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly what we're telling you, it has nothing to do about skill or wanting things easy.

Quote:
Because something you worked hard for feels better than something you didnt or worked less for... Im sure that relic weapon you took 1+ years to get feels a lot better than that AF weapon you took 2 hours to finish a quest and pick up right? or that thief's knife you farmed and saved up 7 million gil (back when they costed that much) to buy off an RMT because you knew there was no way youd out claim their bots and even if you could the likelihood of getting drop was so low that making the money was faster. made you feel great when you got it right? walking down Jeuno everyone checking you and saying "omg he/she has a thief knife" (back when having one was cool anyway lol) right? come on.. tell me im wrong.


If I had the time in this day and age to spend a year farming up for a digital item I might be proud of myself for a few minutes but my priorities are far different from yours. I can understand the time spent buying and fixing up a car since that is a tangible thing and people can see the effort but I don't understand the celebrity status behind an in-game item. 1s and 0s that will disappear when the game eventually goes offline.
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#100 Dec 12 2012 at 10:08 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
If only you could explain all simple concepts with such brevity Smiley: lol



but im sure someone with the attention span of the mere 1-5 mins it would take anyone who graduate high school to read 7 paragraphs will come along read and respond to it ...


just read it myself... 84 seconds.... took longer than that to type it.
#101 Dec 12 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly it has less to do with the length of your post than the quality of your arguments and the way you present them. That said, I was rude to you and it was uncalled for. I apologize.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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