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#102 Dec 12 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Seraphaniim wrote:
Duo, you seem to have this assumption that casuals are mouth-breathing idiots that'll walk off a cliff if the game doesn't hold their hand and defaults to the easiest setting because they can't get past the tutorial stage.

Quote:
As for a casual game.. Im more referring to a casual GAMER.. and to me thats someone who maybe player -2 hours a day.. and not even everyday, who plays but isnt very good and doesnt try to be.. for example in a fighting game he/she either doesnt know how to play and just mashes buttons or at least knows the basics but cant string together the more complex combos, plays games on easy without even TRYING to see if they can handle the default difficulty first (and if they do try they cant handle it lol), doesn't go after trophies/achievements, will use a strategy guide from the second they start as opposed to at least TRYIING to figure things out on their own and THEN consult one once theyve tried and still got stuck, or play motion controlled games that take about as much skill as pointing remote at the tv and changing the channel.. because theyre so easy that even my grandma could do it (Wii Sports), or dont visit gaming website/message boards to the point where theyd even have 7000 or even 1000+ posts.


Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly what we're telling you, it has nothing to do about skill or wanting things easy.

Quote:
Because something you worked hard for feels better than something you didnt or worked less for... Im sure that relic weapon you took 1+ years to get feels a lot better than that AF weapon you took 2 hours to finish a quest and pick up right? or that thief's knife you farmed and saved up 7 million gil (back when they costed that much) to buy off an RMT because you knew there was no way youd out claim their bots and even if you could the likelihood of getting drop was so low that making the money was faster. made you feel great when you got it right? walking down Jeuno everyone checking you and saying "omg he/she has a thief knife" (back when having one was cool anyway lol) right? come on.. tell me im wrong.


If I had the time in this day and age to spend a year farming up for a digital item I might be proud of myself for a few minutes but my priorities are far different from yours. I can understand the time spent buying and fixing up a car since that is a tangible thing and people can see the effort but I don't understand the celebrity status behind an in-game item. 1s and 0s that will disappear when the game eventually goes offline.


no i dont think ANYONE is so pathetic that cant get past the tutorial stage... that would just be sad lol. more like i think theyre ppl that button mash their way through and if that doesnt work.. they try it again... and again.. and again until after dying about 20 times they give up and move on to something else because its too hard.... hmmmm trying the same thing over and over expecting different results? is that not the definition of insanity? when what they SHOULD be doing is after the first or second time... pay attention and analyse what their opponent/enemy is doing and what theyre doing plus what theyre CAPABLE of doing that might counter act what their enemy is doing.... then try that and see if it solves the problem.

perfect example infact was a week ago my cousin got skylanders giants for his bday.. ive never played the game before... my cousin had a character who could literally punch something 2-3 times and kill em.. yet he was so big (compared to the others) theyd have to hit him 20 times just to DENT him).. my uncle (my cousins dad) was playing with him... running up in his face and mashing buttons getting obliterated everytime (hes what id call a casual lol) I on the other hand keep in mind this was my first time even played the game... picked the same small weak character my uncle had... as the fight started i tested out my characters capabilities.. i noticed he had ranged attacks... they didnt do awhile lot a damage but i was smart enough to think... "hmmm he can obliterate me in two hits... but he has to get close to me to do it.. if i stay far away and just keep shooting em itll take 10 minutes but ill beat him" sure enough thats what i did and i kicked his *** lol. As Im doing it my uncles saying "I see what your doin your stay back and hitting him so he cant get close enough to hit you" to which i say "ok if youre smart enough to see an understand exactly what Im doing why werent you smart enough to come up with and formulate that plan yourself?" all i got back was complete silence lol.

as for your comment about tangible item and it disappearing when the game goes offline... REAL ppl play MMOs.. all those ppl seeing that tangible item you worked for everyone who plays that game will see the effort too, what difference does it make of what theyre viewing you through? if you say "because theyre strangers and you dont know them" ok and when you pull up at a grocery store in a Lamborghini the ppl wowing over your car will most likely be strangers too... as for your friend IRL wowing over it.. ok and you wont have at least ONE IRL friend who pays that MMO too that would see and understand your effort? As for teh servers shutting down... same goes for that car you worked for... and anything/everything in life you work for.... you're gonna die eventually and you cant take ANY of that stuff with you, youre not gonna live FOREVER to enjoy it.. you could die the day after you get that car... so by your logic why work at all because either its not gonna be around forever or youre not. so that same comment about the game going offline can apply to things you do/achieve in real life too.
#103 Dec 12 2012 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Honestly it has less to do with the length of your post than the quality of your arguments and the way you present them. That said, I was rude to you and it was uncalled for. I apologize.




ooo modesty and maturity on the internet.... Id rate you up JUST for that (if i could lol) it snow official.. the world really IS gonna end on the 21st and with that I too now must apologize for being an *** with my last comment. So I apologize as well.
#104 Dec 12 2012 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Now that I'm more awake and at least one hamster is turning it's wheel in my head let's see if I can make a more coherent post. Hypothetically let's say 2.0 launches and the relic quests are already in the game along with endgame instances, raids, etc. It takes 6 to 12 months to complete a relic but SE is pushing content out every 3 to 6 months. If relics are BiS at launch, how powerful would SE have to make them initially so that the following endgame releases don't overtake them? Sure SE could implement quests to upgrade the relics and keep them on par with current BiS weapons with each content release. That would keep both hardcore and casuals happy. But if relics aren't better than raid weapons and are never planned to be, there would be little incentive to go after them other than the "wow" factor. I might consider it if I had leveled all classes to cap and had the gear I was comfortable with but then I would realize I could potentially be chasing this carrot on a stick for upwards of a year. The only thing that might make it more enticing is if SE copied WoW's transmog system where you can make an item look like another as long as they're the same type and you have both items.
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#105 Dec 12 2012 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Kachi wrote:
If only you could explain all simple concepts with such brevity Smiley: lol



but im sure someone with the attention span of the mere 1-5 mins it would take anyone who graduate high school to read 7 paragraphs will come along read and respond to it ...


just read it myself... 84 seconds.... took longer than that to type it.


It's really not the length, it's the content (or lack thereof). And the irony of you mentioning a high school education... you're posts are extremely hard to read because they ignore 95% of the basic rules of grammar. I mean, no offense, but read the bolded part of the post I quoted out loud, and imagine someone was saying that to you in a conversation. Then ask yourself if it sounds like it was written by someone with a high school education...

I'm not trying to be rude, but sometimes the best way to say something is to just be honest...

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 12:12pm by ChaChaJaJa
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BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#106 Dec 12 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Seraphaniim wrote:
Now that I'm more awake and at least one hamster is turning it's wheel in my head let's see if I can make a more coherent post. Hypothetically let's say 2.0 launches and the relic quests are already in the game along with endgame instances, raids, etc. It takes 6 to 12 months to complete a relic but SE is pushing content out every 3 to 6 months. If relics are BiS at launch, how powerful would SE have to make them initially so that the following endgame releases don't overtake them? Sure SE could implement quests to upgrade the relics and keep them on par with current BiS weapons with each content release. That would keep both hardcore and casuals happy. But if relics aren't better than raid weapons and are never planned to be, there would be little incentive to go after them other than the "wow" factor. I might consider it if I had leveled all classes to cap and had the gear I was comfortable with but then I would realize I could potentially be chasing this carrot on a stick for upwards of a year. The only thing that might make it more enticing is if SE copied WoW's transmog system where you can make an item look like another as long as they're the same type and you have both items.




well even if relic took 3-6 months to get.. Thats perfectly fine with me.. and thats a LOT less than the 1+ y ears it took to get in FFXI.. so considering the DRAMATIC reduction in time casuals should be happy.. and I would be happy... i just dont want it to be done in 2-4 weeks.. and even if it takes 3-6 months Id want some challenge thrown in there too.. and not just "it only takes 3-6 months because the items you need to farm take that long to collect" at least make it so that after you get everything theres one last battle thats hard enough that youd need a party of KILLED players to help you get the job done too... or if its gonna be solo able you need to be super pimped out and skilled to do it.... thus the casuals have an option (do it with a SKILLED party) and the hardcore have an option (do it solo with your super pimped out gear and masterful skill)

and even if the final battle is stupidly hard... casuals would have incentive to keep trying to finish it because getting to that point was made "easy/doable" in a considerable amount of time but it also took long enough that they got that far theyd wanna finish... whereas dynamis relic was so bad.. just LOOKING at the requirements was enough that a casual wouldnt even TRY to achieve it.

So hold their hand to the very end then at the end hit em with a train... bu that train wont discourage them because they already made it that far and turning back now wouldve been a waste of 3-6 months.. as oppose to FFXIs dynamis which was hitting them with a train from the very start to turning back/not even trying was a much EASIER choice to make.

So there i just found a perfectly viable blend of casual/hardcore happiness lol
#107 Dec 12 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Kachi wrote:
If only you could explain all simple concepts with such brevity Smiley: lol



but im sure someone with the attention span of the mere 1-5 mins it would take anyone who graduate high school to read 7 paragraphs will come along read and respond to it ...


just read it myself... 84 seconds.... took longer than that to type it.


It's really not the length, it's the content (or lack thereof). And the irony of you mentioning a high school education... you're posts are extremely hard to read because they ignore 95% of the basic rules of grammar. I mean, no offense, but read the bolded part of the post I quoted out loud, and imagine someone was saying that to you in a conversation. Then ask yourself if it sounds like it was written by someone with a high school education...

I'm not trying to be rude, but sometimes the best way to say something is to just be honest...

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 12:12pm by ChaChaJaJa



You dont have to point out something Im fully aware of.. I know Im lacking punctuation in some parts (more like EVERY part). But at least 95% of it is spelled right and I can read and understand it despite knowing its flawed and Im no genius (if i were my crap would be punctuated properly lol) thus I cant see why anyone else couldn't.
#108 Dec 12 2012 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
You dont have to point out something Im fully aware of.. I know Im lacking punctuation in some parts (more like EVERY part). But at least 95% of it is spelled right and I can read and understand it despite knowing its flawed and Im no genius (if i were my crap would be punctuated properly lol) thus I cant see why anyone else couldn't.


You can read and understand it because you are reading your own thoughts- you composed them. Of course they make sense to you. But everyone else has to read and reread it in order to try to extract your point. What might be helpful or just plain nice in general- if you want to type long posts with multiple points and you expect the person to whom you are replying to actually want to take the time to read your response- make it a little more user friendly to the person that has to read it. One thing that really helps is to reread it (out loud if possible) to yourself before you post it.

And I swear I'm not trying to be a **** here or to be condescending. I'm just offering a possible solution to avoiding this:

Kachi wrote:
Honestly it has less to do with the length of your post than the quality of your arguments and the way you present them. That said, I was rude to you and it was uncalled for. I apologize.


Kachi has way better internet manners than most. SOP on ZAM is that you either get rated through the floor and ignored or called a @#%^tard until you leave on your own volition...

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 3:26pm by ChaChaJaJa
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BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#109 Dec 12 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
You dont have to point out something Im fully aware of.. I know Im lacking punctuation in some parts (more like EVERY part). But at least 95% of it is spelled right and I can read and understand it despite knowing its flawed and Im no genius (if i were my crap would be punctuated properly lol) thus I cant see why anyone else couldn't.


You can read and understand it because you are reading your own thoughts- you composed them. Of course they make sense to you. But everyone else has to read and reread it in order to try to extract your point. What might be helpful or just plain nice in general- if you want to type long posts with multiple points and you expect the person to whom you are replying to actually want to take the time to read your response- make it a little more user friendly to the person that has to read it. One thing that really helps is to reread it (out loud if possible) to yourself before you post it.

And I swear I'm not trying to be a **** here or to be condecending. I'm just offering a possible solution to avoiding this:

Kachi wrote:
Honestly it has less to do with the length of your post than the quality of your arguments and the way you present them. That said, I was rude to you and it was uncalled for. I apologize.


Kachi has way better internet manners than most. SOP on ZAM is that you either get rated through the floor and ignored or called a @#%^tard until you leave on your own volition...



Well i know my grammar is atrocious. So even if i did reread it I couldn't fix it (at least not 100%). So unfortunately until someone makes the working (yes i said working. Have you used it on MS Word? They might as well not even have the option its so bad, I purposely put questions without question marks and it doesn't spot it.) equivalent of spell check for punctuation/grammar, mine will continue to be atrocious. So I can at least make it a bit more bearable (after all anything I do for a job applications, resume or other things that would be considered "important" I take a bit more care composing it than i would on something like... a message board for example).


As for alla and being rated to oblivion and called @#%^tard. Oh trust me, I know. The FFXI general boards back when I played regularly all those years ago were just like that. 90% of my posts would be sub defaulted. If I made any posts like the last 5 I made in this topic on THOSE boards back then they'd definitely be sub defaulted). Surprisingly however I've yet to be sub defaulted on this board. So either alla's gotten maturer/grown up in the last 4 years or the ffxiv community is just much better (but im sure thats only because ffxiv "sucks" or isn't out yet. I bet it'll turn into what ffxi boards was once the game comes out and assuming it gets better reviews).


This post for example. Was it not 100% better than my previous ones?
#110 Dec 12 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seraphaniim wrote:
Duo, you seem to have this assumption that casuals are mouth-breathing idiots that'll walk off a cliff if the game doesn't hold their hand and defaults to the easiest setting because they can't get past the tutorial stage.

Quote:
As for a casual game.. Im more referring to a casual GAMER.. and to me thats someone who maybe player -2 hours a day.. and not even everyday, who plays but isnt very good and doesnt try to be.. for example in a fighting game he/she either doesnt know how to play and just mashes buttons or at least knows the basics but cant string together the more complex combos, plays games on easy without even TRYING to see if they can handle the default difficulty first (and if they do try they cant handle it lol), doesn't go after trophies/achievements, will use a strategy guide from the second they start as opposed to at least TRYIING to figure things out on their own and THEN consult one once theyve tried and still got stuck, or play motion controlled games that take about as much skill as pointing remote at the tv and changing the channel.. because theyre so easy that even my grandma could do it (Wii Sports), or dont visit gaming website/message boards to the point where theyd even have 7000 or even 1000+ posts.


Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly what we're telling you, it has nothing to do about skill or wanting things easy.



This, for gods sake this. Being casual doesn't mean you are an idiot who sucks at video games. I know it's a word that's been applied to farmville moms etc. - but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about people with full time jobs, lives, other hobbies etc - who want to have enjoyable downtime in a social game, but don't want to be locked out of the majority of content because they don't have 30+ hours a week to play.

What this means is that in order for the game to be enjoyable, it needs to not be excessively grindy. It also needs to have minimal gating, and not require new players to do several years worth of outdated content to do the more current content.
It also needs to either make grouping very easy to achieve, or have a lot of content that doesn't require grouping. (preferably both)

What a bunch of us here in this thread are trying to say is we'd like to be able to log on and have fun. Immediately.

What I'm personally saying is I think it is a mistake for SE to cater to people who have way more than average playtime available, because most people want their mmo gaming to be a hobby, not their entire life.

We are the people who enjoy gearing up our characters and taking on challenges, who also don't need to think that we're better than others, or deny others fun in order to have fun. I actually don't care if everyone on the server has that shiny +1 - what brings me joy is not denying others their rewards, but getting the rewards myself.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#111 Dec 12 2012 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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This thread seems to be a little off topic now, given that it was originally about turn-based combat!

Regardless, on the talk of casual vs. hardcore etc, I think it's alittle more complex than some posters are making it appear to be. If you want a purely casual experience, go try GW2. Even for those of us (myself included) that do play casual, it is entirely too unrewarding. If I can play casually and reach max level and gear within 1 month of launch... what's the point? There needs to be that exceedingly difficult item to get.

While I was never one to camp HNM/NM's its a romantic concept of mobs in the wilderness having items of untold power that we need to take back for ourselves. This is interesting. Generally, when a game says it wants to appeal to casual players, it simply instances everything. This is good for the people who: "if you can only play for 2 hours, great, you can run a dungeon twice". That being said, how many of you enjoy running dungeons and dungeons alone? I liked that Sky and Sea were entire zones, where there was bits and pieces that lead up to the final event. You ran into other party's/alliances, it FELT like an MMO. Instead of, everyone shooting in Jeuno/Lion's Arch for lf1m CoF exp lv80 exotic! then going their own way. Also, the Journey of getting to Sea/Sky requiring extraordinarily difficult fights and long time commitments were great. It was an accomplishment in and of itself to sea Sky/Sea:O during the early few years of the game. Making these things sufficiently difficult (ie: not something that any individual can attain inside of 2 hrs/day once in a while) is key to keepign people's interest

Simply, the concept of 'casual' is far better than the implementation. If a game needs to be considered hardcore for it to have depth, so be it. GW2 is the poster boy of a game made for casuals, that can't hold anyones attention for more than 2 weeks.
#112 Dec 12 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe you just didn't like GW2? I know I didn't. Don't like the style of combat, or the story that I was exposed to.

Also it's a no-sub game. I didn't really have high expectations so I wasn't really let down.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#113 Dec 12 2012 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Ridinger wrote:
This thread seems to be a little off topic now, given that it was originally about turn-based combat!

Regardless, on the talk of casual vs. hardcore etc, I think it's alittle more complex than some posters are making it appear to be. If you want a purely casual experience, go try GW2. Even for those of us (myself included) that do play casual, it is entirely too unrewarding. If I can play casually and reach max level and gear within 1 month of launch... what's the point? There needs to be that exceedingly difficult item to get.

While I was never one to camp HNM/NM's its a romantic concept of mobs in the wilderness having items of untold power that we need to take back for ourselves. This is interesting. Generally, when a game says it wants to appeal to casual players, it simply instances everything. This is good for the people who: "if you can only play for 2 hours, great, you can run a dungeon twice". That being said, how many of you enjoy running dungeons and dungeons alone? I liked that Sky and Sea were entire zones, where there was bits and pieces that lead up to the final event. You ran into other party's/alliances, it FELT like an MMO. Instead of, everyone shooting in Jeuno/Lion's Arch for lf1m CoF exp lv80 exotic! then going their own way. Also, the Journey of getting to Sea/Sky requiring extraordinarily difficult fights and long time commitments were great. It was an accomplishment in and of itself to sea Sky/Sea:O during the early few years of the game. Making these things sufficiently difficult (ie: not something that any individual can attain inside of 2 hrs/day once in a while) is key to keepign people's interest

Simply, the concept of 'casual' is far better than the implementation. If a game needs to be considered hardcore for it to have depth, so be it. GW2 is the poster boy of a game made for casuals, that can't hold anyones attention for more than 2 weeks.


I wouldn't look to GW2 as the shining example of a casual game. GW2 has a great many design flaws. It just happened to do combat a bit better than average and apply the basic psych principles of the Skinner box to it's progression system. It's otherwise so formulaic that you can basically experience the entire game within the first 30 levels.

A game doesn't need to be hardcore to have depth, not at all. It can even have long time commitments, but those commitments shouldn't be saliently artificial. FFXI could have cut their commitments in HALF across the board and the average player still wouldn't even come close to running out of things to do. Meanwhile, GW2 could have doubled their commitments easily, not to mention added plenty of interesting gear (as opposed to the bland crap some 12-year old sharted out) and other content to keep players engaged in the endgame.

People act like it's still 2002. Developers can create content in much greater quantity than they could ten years ago. They just have to be smarter about how many player hours they ask players to spend on it. FFXI's philosophy seemed to be that players can never spend too much time to do even the most mundane task. GW2 seemed to think players had an attention span of 5 seconds.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#114 Dec 12 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine. Yes, the time to level from 1-75 was excessive, as was meriting. But, did you feel that the time/reward wasn't there for basic content such as:
Subjob quest
Job quests
Transport quests (choco/airship/yuhtunga/yhoater)
Rank missions
Sky/Sea/Aht'urgan (attainment of area, farming for items/RNG drops is another story)
AF

I thought these were all well thought out, and paced well. With a static party, you could easily do any mission/few rank levels in a night. What's the general consensus, as I think the terms 'casual' 'hardcore' 'depth' are exceedingly vague. So, when people start arguing about some content is to hardcore, others may just consider this depth. Are these the types of reward/effort type instances that people like, or do people that advocate 'casual' gameplay want more of a 'plug-n-play' atmosphere, where yous tart with subjob/transportation/jobs and it's a matter of soloing a mission inside of 30 minutes to gain a rank?
#115 Dec 12 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Ridinger wrote:
I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine. Yes, the time to level from 1-75 was excessive, as was meriting. But, did you feel that the time/reward wasn't there for basic content such as:
Subjob quest
Job quests
Transport quests (choco/airship/yuhtunga/yhoater)
Rank missions
Sky/Sea/Aht'urgan (attainment of area, farming for items/RNG drops is another story)
AF

I thought these were all well thought out, and paced well. With a static party, you could easily do any mission/few rank levels in a night. What's the general consensus, as I think the terms 'casual' 'hardcore' 'depth' are exceedingly vague. So, when people start arguing about some content is to hardcore, others may just consider this depth. Are these the types of reward/effort type instances that people like, or do people that advocate 'casual' gameplay want more of a 'plug-n-play' atmosphere, where yous tart with subjob/transportation/jobs and it's a matter of soloing a mission inside of 30 minutes to gain a rank?


Most people are referring to the fact that, as you said, leveling and meriting were excessive, as were many of the items and farming for drops. Unfortunately, those things are some of the biggest drivers of endgame participation. I have no gripes with what you call "basic content," and I think most players agree that they were fine.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#116 Dec 12 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Ridinger wrote:
I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine.

Waiting almost 3 years for an expansion to complete and 6 years between expansions is fine? To each their own I guess.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#117 Dec 12 2012 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ridinger wrote:
I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine.

Waiting almost 3 years for an expansion to complete and 6 years between expansions is fine? To each their own I guess.



6 years between expansions? sooo FFXI is 18 years old? ok
#118 Dec 12 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem with current MMOS is not that they have huge wide flaws, is that people expect them to be able to compete with 10 year old running MMOS in content, it just wont happen :/ Swotors biggest flaw was no end content, it had end content, but not WOW ammount content... Same with GW2 it does has content, but it cannot match FFXI-WOW in quantity.
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#119 Dec 12 2012 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
The problem with current MMOS is not that they have huge wide flaws, is that people expect them to be able to compete with 10 year old running MMOS in content, it just wont happen :/ Swotors biggest flaw was no end content, it had end content, but not WOW ammount content... Same with GW2 it does has content, but it cannot match FFXI-WOW in quantity.


While that's definitely a problem, current MMOs also have a problem with huge flaws.

Basically, yes, in the sense that poorly designed NEW games are being compared to poorly designed OLD games, that's a main reason why new games don't succeed. However, if a new game weren't poorly designed to begin with, it would probably succeed. For example, GW2 had sufficient content as you noted, but it paced the gameplay too fast and had a very poor incentive structure. There was almost no opportunity for horizontal advancement at endgame, and tons of content that the average player wouldn't experience by the time they capped their character.

They built a game that counted on players making additional characters and experiencing different aspects of the game on each one, and in doing so created a game which saw players developing no sense of investment in their characters.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 4:17pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#120 Dec 12 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ridinger wrote:
I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine.

Waiting almost 3 years for an expansion to complete and 6 years between expansions is fine? To each their own I guess.



6 years between expansions? sooo FFXI is 18 years old? ok


Pretty sure he's talking about between WotG and Seekers of Adoulin, which will be 6 years apart. Fact checking is fun!
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#121 Dec 12 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if I'd count that seeing as they really didn't intend to do another expansion after WotG in the first place.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#122 Dec 12 2012 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I merely said why it was 6 years apart.
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#123 Dec 12 2012 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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There was also the mini expansions in there. While they weren't full blown epic storylines, two out of three of the first ones were funny as heck, and the latter three radically transformed the game, most would argue in a good way. They were decent bridge content.
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#124 Dec 12 2012 at 9:08 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ridinger wrote:
I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine.

Waiting almost 3 years for an expansion to complete and 6 years between expansions is fine? To each their own I guess.



6 years between expansions? sooo FFXI is 18 years old? ok


Pretty sure he's talking about between WotG and Seekers of Adoulin, which will be 6 years apart. Fact checking is fun!



except he said expansionS as if its ALWAYS been the case.. when the fact of the matter is except for toau every expansion story was completed exactly 1 year after it came out and the new expansion came right after. Only wotg took longer than a year without the next expansion being there right after it finished
#125 Dec 12 2012 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ridinger wrote:
I think the content, for the most part in FFXI was well paced. Sure some items were a tad ludicrous, but if we are talking solely content, I think
FFXI was perfectly fine.

Waiting almost 3 years for an expansion to complete and 6 years between expansions is fine? To each their own I guess.



6 years between expansions? sooo FFXI is 18 years old? ok


As Wint said, it's been 6 years since the last expansion for XI. Do whatever search you need to and find out when WotG came out. Jury still out on release date for SoA, but 2013 puts it at 6 years since. While you've got WotG info pulled up, go ahead and check to see when the final content was added. Keep in mind that this 'expansion' did nothing more than re-skin old zones minus a few instanced areas. ok?

*Edit*
Because I feel bad for you, I went to the trouble of finding the info you need. Playonline official announcement.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
every expansion story was completed exactly 1 year after it came out

Given what I just posted, do you really believe that?



Edited, Dec 12th 2012 10:54pm by FilthMcNasty
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#126 Dec 13 2012 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:


DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
every expansion story was completed exactly 1 year after it came out

Given what I just posted, do you really believe that?



Edited, Dec 12th 2012 10:54pm by FilthMcNasty




you wanna try including the three word that came before that part of my quote you bit off and THEN ask me that question again? (which btw speaking of three words one of them is supposed to be wotg not toau)
#127 Dec 13 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Part of the reason that no major expansion was forthcoming after WotG, even when the storyline was finally completed, was the damned PS2 limitations. They are literally out of numbered slots for zones. For the ten zones from Abyssea, they had to reprogram the mog houses in cities to all be the same zone instead of one attached to each city zone. (That freed up 3 from Jeuno, 2 from Sandy, 2 from Bastok, and 3 from Windurst. )

For Seekers, I'm not sure how they're going to add in the zones. Maybe they're going to reprogram the guts of the JP PS2 client as well as all the PC clients to take 512 or 1024 zones instead of 256. We can only hope.
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#128DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 13 2012 at 10:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) um you do notice that Seekers isnt getting a ps2 release right?
#129 Dec 13 2012 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
catwho wrote:
Part of the reason that no major expansion was forthcoming after WotG, even when the storyline was finally completed, was the damned PS2 limitations. They are literally out of numbered slots for zones. For the ten zones from Abyssea, they had to reprogram the mog houses in cities to all be the same zone instead of one attached to each city zone. (That freed up 3 from Jeuno, 2 from Sandy, 2 from Bastok, and 3 from Windurst. )

For Seekers, I'm not sure how they're going to add in the zones. Maybe they're going to reprogram the guts of the JP PS2 client as well as all the PC clients to take 512 or 1024 zones instead of 256. We can only hope.



um you do notice that Seekers isnt getting a ps2 release right?


How do you not get rated down more? You have the worst attitude. For the record, I did rate you down (once only, even though I wanted to hit that nuke button).

You don't have to be combative with every post, you know that right?
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#130 Dec 13 2012 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
catwho wrote:
Part of the reason that no major expansion was forthcoming after WotG, even when the storyline was finally completed, was the damned PS2 limitations. They are literally out of numbered slots for zones. For the ten zones from Abyssea, they had to reprogram the mog houses in cities to all be the same zone instead of one attached to each city zone. (That freed up 3 from Jeuno, 2 from Sandy, 2 from Bastok, and 3 from Windurst. )

For Seekers, I'm not sure how they're going to add in the zones. Maybe they're going to reprogram the guts of the JP PS2 client as well as all the PC clients to take 512 or 1024 zones instead of 256. We can only hope.



um you do notice that Seekers isnt getting a ps2 release right?


Also they PS2 is getting a release, but only in Japan.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/27/final-fantasy-xi-seekers-of-adoulin-not-on-ps2-outside-of-japan/
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#131 Dec 13 2012 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
The problem with current MMOS is not that they have huge wide flaws, is that people expect them to be able to compete with 10 year old running MMOS in content, it just wont happen :/ Swotors biggest flaw was no end content, it had end content, but not WOW ammount content... Same with GW2 it does has content, but it cannot match FFXI-WOW in quantity.


While that's definitely a problem, current MMOs also have a problem with huge flaws.

Basically, yes, in the sense that poorly designed NEW games are being compared to poorly designed OLD games, that's a main reason why new games don't succeed. However, if a new game weren't poorly designed to begin with, it would probably succeed. For example, GW2 had sufficient content as you noted, but it paced the gameplay too fast and had a very poor incentive structure. There was almost no opportunity for horizontal advancement at endgame, and tons of content that the average player wouldn't experience by the time they capped their character.

They built a game that counted on players making additional characters and experiencing different aspects of the game on each one, and in doing so created a game which saw players developing no sense of investment in their characters.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 4:17pm by Kachi


GW2 was not poorly designed, the complain that the majority of players have had about GW2, is the same they had with Swotor.... lack of end game content, was gameplay to fast ? Not in my opinion, it was engaging, there was always something to do, and if you did not want to progress in PVE you can always WvsW or PVP and progress that way if you got bored, the game has options, not just one path unlike a game i could mention.... Also once you reach cap, yes you have to farm the istances you have already beaten in your way to cap level, but instead of being like wow, where is the same encounter just with more HP and little higher difficulty, in GW2 they switched everything around, the encounters the difficulty is like going fron normal, to raid level in a blink of an eye.

On content that the average player wont experience i think they did a good job with their sync system, i could go to a lvl 1 zone as cap, and still get whopped if i overengaged etc etc, certainly was not as hard as being truly lvl 1, but not a cake walk. That to me was a good design choice, because i could still group up with my friends in lower areas, and not carry them just because i was lvl 50 or w/e.
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#132 Dec 13 2012 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
The problem with current MMOS is not that they have huge wide flaws, is that people expect them to be able to compete with 10 year old running MMOS in content, it just wont happen :/ Swotors biggest flaw was no end content, it had end content, but not WOW ammount content... Same with GW2 it does has content, but it cannot match FFXI-WOW in quantity.


While that's definitely a problem, current MMOs also have a problem with huge flaws.

Basically, yes, in the sense that poorly designed NEW games are being compared to poorly designed OLD games, that's a main reason why new games don't succeed. However, if a new game weren't poorly designed to begin with, it would probably succeed. For example, GW2 had sufficient content as you noted, but it paced the gameplay too fast and had a very poor incentive structure. There was almost no opportunity for horizontal advancement at endgame, and tons of content that the average player wouldn't experience by the time they capped their character.

They built a game that counted on players making additional characters and experiencing different aspects of the game on each one, and in doing so created a game which saw players developing no sense of investment in their characters.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 4:17pm by Kachi


GW2 was not poorly designed, the complain that the majority of players have had about GW2, is the same they had with Swotor.... lack of end game content, was gameplay to fast ? Not in my opinion, it was engaging, there was always something to do, and if you did not want to progress in PVE you can always WvsW or PVP and progress that way if you got bored, the game has options, not just one path unlike a game i could mention.... Also once you reach cap, yes you have to farm the istances you have already beaten in your way to cap level, but instead of being like wow, where is the same encounter just with more HP and little higher difficulty, in GW2 they switched everything around, the encounters the difficulty is like going fron normal, to raid level in a blink of an eye.

On content that the average player wont experience i think they did a good job with their sync system, i could go to a lvl 1 zone as cap, and still get whopped if i overengaged etc etc, certainly was not as hard as being truly lvl 1, but not a cake walk. That to me was a good design choice, because i could still group up with my friends in lower areas, and not carry them just because i was lvl 50 or w/e.


I consider lack of end game content poor design. I mean, you know that players are going to get there, and you have almost nothing for them to do? Paramount to good design is smart allocation of development resources. Of course no player is going to complain that they leveled too fast. But from a design perspective, it's a flaw when players bypass content that you designed for them. That shows a poor allocation of design elements.

The sync system is just another indication of that. Yes, you can go back to do the PVE content that you bypassed and it's still fairly balanced, but aside from completing it, you have almost no incentive to. You can go back and complete them to get your relic weapon, but at that point, you were literally done with the game.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#133 Dec 13 2012 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Have you played the game our are you just talking out of your *** ? You do have incentive to go and complete lowered leveled content, not only do bosses drop gear your level (Cap if you are capped or 40 if you are 40) you also get event points which you can in return turn into gear, so there is incentive to clear or help friend on lowered level content, besides it is the best sync system out there.

For example i can go to a level one area, help some noobs take down the zone boss, and come out with 4-5 pieces of epic, rare, legendary quality gear... In another game i just wasted time.... Yeah no incentives Smiley: lol

Also players do not bypass leveling content, you are missing the bigger point, which is the game has to much leveling content, for you to complete in one run, no meter what you do, if you do decide to just do the zones and no istances, you will hit cap level before you are even done with half the zones. As for the lack of end game content, the game does has end game content, the problem with current games, is that they have been unable to develop a game, where there is quality and quantity content to go from lvl 1 to cap, and also develop quality & quantity content exclusive for end game players, that can match WOW.
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#134 Dec 13 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:


except for toau every expansion story was completed exactly 1 year after it came out

Given what I just posted, do you really believe that?


you wanna try including the three word that came before that part of my quote you bit off and THEN ask me that question again? (which btw speaking of three words one of them is supposed to be wotg not toau)

Added the 3 words you requested, but what is the point?

RoZ and CoP came within or close to the 1 year point from release and the previous expansion release. Since then, every other expansion has taken over a year to release and well over a year to completely release content.

If you want to be technical, I wouldn't really call CoP completed within that time frame. I realize that the mission content was complete and you could obtain the rings, but for those of us who were hardcore, AV was the end. It remained broken for years and never really got a fix because the devs refused to come clean(unless you want to call the level uncapping a fix), but that was, um... oh look at that coincidence. 6 years later.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
um you do notice that Seekers isnt getting a ps2 release right?

FYI SoA is being released on PS2 for JP client...
catwho wrote:
JP PS2 client

I see nothing wrong with this statement.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 11:57pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#135 Dec 13 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Have you played the game our are you just talking out of your *** ? You do have incentive to go and complete lowered leveled content, not only do bosses drop gear your level (Cap if you are capped or 40 if you are 40) you also get event points which you can in return turn into gear, so there is incentive to clear or help friend on lowered level content, besides it is the best sync system out there.

For example i can go to a level one area, help some noobs take down the zone boss, and come out with 4-5 pieces of epic, rare, legendary quality gear... In another game i just wasted time.... Yeah no incentives Smiley: lol

Also players do not bypass leveling content, you are missing the bigger point, which is the game has to much leveling content, for you to complete in one run, no meter what you do, if you do decide to just do the zones and no istances, you will hit cap level before you are even done with half the zones. As for the lack of end game content, the game does has end game content, the problem with current games, is that they have been unable to develop a game, where there is quality and quantity content to go from lvl 1 to cap, and also develop quality & quantity content exclusive for end game players, that can match WOW.


I played the game and have done almost everything that the game has to offer. Like many people, I became bored by it rather quickly.

I think the thing you're overlooking is that you're talking about the game in terms of players who haven't already fully progressed their character. Once you've farmed out the single best weapon and the single best set of gear, which doesn't even take that long, that's about it. You're done. I know they added an endgame area trying to address this not long ago, but the entire incentivization of equipment in GW2 is pretty much doo doo. In fact, that was one of the first things that struck me as a significant design weakness: poorly designed equipment and incentive structure. Then you have the designer responsible for that coming out and admitting that players weren't happy with it. And his fix wasn't much better.

Quantity and quality of content are not GW2's problems. In fact, those things are quite admirable. The problem was simply the pacing and incentivization of content. Even with the level syncing, your character's other bonuses still put you at a significant advantage in low level areas. Meanwhile, until recently there was only one area which regularly spawned enemies over level 80.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#136 Dec 13 2012 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:



incorrect sure not EVERYONE cant be bill gates or oprah.. whoever things that is an idiot.. but EVERYONE (in the US at least.. i cant speak for other countries as i dont live in em) should make enough money to not be homeless/on the streets


stopped reading shortly after this. i usually stop reading any post that begins with "incorrect", because its frankly obnoxious. In this case, it was the "everyone should be able to x", when clearly, everyone is NOT able to "x" that really made me stop.
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