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FFXIV Official Alpha Video: Combat & QuestsFollow

#52 Dec 06 2012 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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while there was a non-visual global cooldown/shared timer in 1.0, i feel like the GCD in 2.0 Alpha is longer. i actually don't have a problem with it though, as long as:

1. abilities like stun/provoke/featherfoot that need to be instant cast are exempt from the GCD
2. battles provide plenty of strategic opportunities to justify the long wait between abilities
3. there is a queue system so we can trigger an ability, then queue up the next ability to autofire as soon as possible

I remember playing pugilist back when it was more about using featherfoot to evade and then counter with special abilities like Jarring Strike/Simian Thrash. I reallly hope SE includes more of those mechanics, as it makes combat so much more interactive.

Oh, i just realized why they made the GCD so long. For those of us who play with controllers.
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#53 Dec 06 2012 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
while there was a non-visual global cooldown/shared timer in 1.0, i feel like the GCD in 2.0 Alpha is longer. i actually don't have a problem with it though, as long as:

1. abilities like stun/provoke/featherfoot that need to be instant cast are exempt from the GCD
2. battles provide plenty of strategic opportunities to justify the long wait between abilities
3. there is a queue system so we can trigger an ability, then queue up the next ability to autofire as soon as possible

I remember playing pugilist back when it was more about using featherfoot to evade and then counter with special abilities like Jarring Strike/Simian Thrash. I reallly hope SE includes more of those mechanics, as it makes combat so much more interactive.

Oh, i just realized why they made the GCD so long. For those of us who play with controllers.


I only watched the vid once and couldn't really tell because I'm not familiar with the mobs, but what's the consensus on interrupted spell casts? Personally I'd rather see some sort of pushback mechanic instead of complete interrupt. Even if SE wanted to keep the ability for mobs to interrupt casting, they should set it up in a way that the spell just restarts from 0% cast instead of you having to spam whenever interrupted.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#54 Dec 06 2012 at 11:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm fine with the interrupts but it sounds like most people don't like them.
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#55 Dec 06 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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McDomination wrote:
The thing is though, if you haven't played every single MMORPG in existence, this is different and innovative. Sure, it may copy styles from other MMORPGs that are out there, but to those of us that don't play WoW or GW2 or (insert mmorpg of choice here), this is going to be a good Final Fantasy MMORPG with good MMORPG mechanics.


Sadly, I feel like this is the business philosophy of most MMOs today. Don't do anything especially new. Just slap some better graphics on the same game and attract the people who have no real discerning tastes when it comes to MMOs because they're new to the genre.

Hyanmen wrote:

I don't know about the "solutions" being ignored. That sounds a bit weird to do, especially for the professionals.

I really doubt that any solution doesn't come with it's own faults and flaws, nor that the current design with their problems are not without their upsides, too. Any new idea should be a hard sell, and I'm sure an able designer can point out the definite flaws in each of them.

It's not a defeatist attitude, but sadly realistic. For a single person it's really hard to take everything into account in MMO game design, and even if the idea gets implemented, the playerbase will ruthlessly pinpoint and abuse every mistake the designer(s) overlooked.

Edited, Dec 6th 2012 7:51pm by Hyanmen


That's the problem. Solutions are ignored because most designers can't see past two changes. Nearly any time you change a mechanic, you have to change at least one other thing, if not every other thing. Most people are bad at making games for that very reason. They have an idea, and then they notice that some problems emerge. Rather than figure out what the solutions to those problems are, they write it off as too risky, too much work, or just unfeasible.

I'm working on a project right now that's roughly the scope of an MMO (design-wise, not nearly as bad development-wise); I know how difficult it is. It's difficult to maintain perspective at times. Impossible, arguably, for the human brain to simulate the complexities of such a game system. I can change this, but then what about this? Did I forget something? Which design tradeoffs do you make? And despite the creative infusion that comes with having a team, the process is just that much harder when you have to evaluate lots of ideas. The simplest ones can start to look the most appealing, even if they're not particularly good. A great idea comes across the table... but will the players "get it?" Will they be able to capitalize on the possibilities that this creates for them?

The zenith of game design is when the game you create allows the player to do exactly what they wanted to do, even things they didn't know they wanted to do. It's impossible to please everyone to 100% satisfaction. But here's the thing about MMOs (oh lawd, here I go): there ARE simple solutions that are ignored. And the solution that is most commonly ignored is to just let players make their choice. Most design elements exist on a spectrum. They don't have to be fixed into one location. In many types of games, you have to fix them anyway because that's all you can realistically do. But MMOs are different. They have monstrous budgets, and they have the development power to deliver "the spectrum." Not just A or Z, but everything in between.

And that was my gripe before. Most designers sit around trying to figure out, "Is K, or U better for this mechanic?" They don't stop to think, "How can I give players a choice between K and U? Maybe even N?" In most cases, this does not result in twice the design or development load. It results in having a default mode and then an exception. Or it's just variations on an iteration. Figuring out how to utilize existing template design patterns to make one set of code do lots of different things is exactly what good designers are supposed to do.

Quote:
This "listening to fans with no education in game design" business always seemed a bit strange to me. Sort of like commissioning a painting and then standing over the artists' shoulder telling her to "put a tree there" or "don't use so much red". But times change. Fans are waaaay more savvy than we used to be (ty internet), and several someones at SE arrived late to that particular party.


Not to mention there really isn't a robust requirement (often no requirement at all) in most game designer preparation programs to develop a theoretical understanding of "fun." Game design schools focus on the design process or the development process. They don't teach you how to design fun games, just how to operate in the workplace as a contributing team member. The average game designer's knowledge of good game design is the same as yours: "I like these features in these games; don't like those features in those games."
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#56 Dec 07 2012 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:

Sadly, I feel like this is the business philosophy of most MMOs today. Don't do anything especially new. Just slap some better graphics on the same game and attract the people who have no real discerning tastes when it comes to MMOs because they're new to the genre.


sad but true. no one wants to put up the money for the risk of doing something different.

Quote:

Not to mention there really isn't a robust requirement (often no requirement at all) in most game designer preparation programs to develop a theoretical understanding of "fun." Game design schools focus on the design process or the development process. They don't teach you how to design fun games, just how to operate in the workplace as a contributing team member. The average game designer's knowledge of good game design is the same as yours: "I like these features in these games; don't like those features in those games."


even more sad and even more true. I graduated from one such game design factor- err school (Guildhall at SMU), and while there was much discussion on the "but is it fun?" issue, there was almost no motivation towards innovation. Quite the opposite. We were often trained to look at existing games and basically copy them. And yes, it was mostly about learning the pipeline of the development process(which is valuable to be sure).

There were no classes on, for instance, psychology of games. The typical "concept pitch" as we learned it usually involved comparisons to existing successful games as a technique for selling our ideas. While i understand why the curriculum was designed that way (job security mostly), it just contributes to the stagnation of the industry.

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 1:13am by Llester
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#57 Dec 07 2012 at 1:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Viertel wrote:
Turok1985 wrote:
I'm disappointed with the combat, the auto attack needs to play a bigger roll seems like you can choose strong attacks too often. I might be wrong but it looks too dumbed down.


No.

And don't insult bread again.

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The only thing I'm disheartened about so far is the interrupt mechanics ala FFXI. Seems rather dark-aged and pointlessly annoying.


You do know you could be interrupted in XIV 1.0, right? Or did you actually just not play it? It does suck SE implemented risks during battle, I agree. A mage chanting a spell should NOT be interrupted by getting their face beat in.

>.>



agree. not with the part about caring whether or not he played 1.0 (cause really, who cares), but yeah i for one am glad that mechanic is still in XIV.

on that note, i really miss the skill (yes, skill!) involved in keeping utsusemi up while getting face stomped by, say, Charybdis at 75 cap, with no bard present.





I'm a little surprised by the apparent support for FFXI's interrupt mechanics, which have fallen almost completely out of use in modern MMOs in favor of a pushback system.

You can definitely argue that it requires more skill than spell pushback does, which is probably true. But it also places the skill "floor" on spellcasting pretty high- that's not something you generally want to do to elementary mechanics in a game with a goal of mass appeal.

That's not to say there shouldn't be a high skill cap, to even basic mechanics; in a well-designed game, it would be a spectrum, where basic gameplay isn't punishing to the less sophisticated players, but is rewarding to the ones who work at it.

You could probably get away with something like this in a type of game like Demons Souls, where most people who buy it, know they're getting into a really tough experience from the get-go. But MMO's necessarily seek mass appeal and accessibility, and the lack-thereof was a fatal flaw in FFXI. I'm quoting Blizzard's motto here, which I hope is forgivable, that a good game should be easy to learn, but difficult to master. It's tough to say with an alpha how much of the gameplay has been finalized (which I say reluctantly, having said the same thing when testing the original alpha), but some of what we can see in this video might not be quite living up to that standard, which should be a goal for all MMO developers.

I agree with sentiment above that the global cooldown on spells seems a tad long, though it's worth mentioning that it begins at the start of spellcasting, and will likely have ended by the time you've finished casting longer spells(true in other MMO's also).

Something which would be really good to know, is whether the "invisible delay" between the end of spellcasting and the beginning of a new action, which was present in FFXI, will accompany this. That might be pretty detrimental to the pacing of combat if it did. It feels really good to go from one ability or spell straight into another(cooldowns pending), without arbitrary lockouts in between.

Pacing is itself a pretty important element too. A game that felt as slow as FFXI would probably be a hard sell in the modern MMO marketplace, though that was due at least in some part to tying the speed of gameplay to the FPS.


Overall an interesting and informative video! The game is already well above industry standards for beauty of art and sound, let's hope the gameplay ends up there too, and FFXIV is reborn as a huge success!
#58 Dec 07 2012 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Viertel wrote:
Turok1985 wrote:
I'm disappointed with the combat, the auto attack needs to play a bigger roll seems like you can choose strong attacks too often. I might be wrong but it looks too dumbed down.


No.

And don't insult bread again.

~~

The only thing I'm disheartened about so far is the interrupt mechanics ala FFXI. Seems rather dark-aged and pointlessly annoying.


You do know you could be interrupted in XIV 1.0, right? Or did you actually just not play it? It does suck SE implemented risks during battle, I agree. A mage chanting a spell should NOT be interrupted by getting their face beat in.

>.>

Where is the line drawn between realistic and, well... realistic? I understand the idea that someone chanting something might not be able to complete said chant while being punched in the mouth but considering that, why is it reasonable that a player disrobe and put on a completely new set of clothing mid-battle?

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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#59 Dec 07 2012 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
omg brilliant. still loling.

"It needs to be less liney"


If you've never read The Oatmeal before you're in for a fun afternoon.

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That is fantastic!

Favorite added Smiley: grin
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#60 Dec 07 2012 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
while there was a non-visual global cooldown/shared timer in 1.0, i feel like the GCD in 2.0 Alpha is longer. i actually don't have a problem with it though, as long as:

1. abilities like stun/provoke/featherfoot that need to be instant cast are exempt from the GCD
2. battles provide plenty of strategic opportunities to justify the long wait between abilities
3. there is a queue system so we can trigger an ability, then queue up the next ability to autofire as soon as possible


By the way, I totally agree with this. My main concern is that as important as #2 is, it probably won't be the case at all. For battles to be strategic, there needs to be a substantive interplay between player and enemy. That's difficult to achieve when the primary battle mechanics are the traditional MMO ones (basic stats and a handful of status ailments). You don't have to "out-think" enemies so much as you have to "out-stat" them. And that's a failing paradigm, because it doesn't challenge players. At best, that kind of combat can maintain a minimal level of engagement IF:

Quote:
Pacing is itself a pretty important element too. A game that felt as slow as FFXI would probably be a hard sell in the modern MMO marketplace, though that was due at least in some part to tying the speed of gameplay to the FPS.


Yeah, if it weren't for that. And that's my concern right now.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Dec 07 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
while there was a non-visual global cooldown/shared timer in 1.0, i feel like the GCD in 2.0 Alpha is longer. i actually don't have a problem with it though, as long as:

1. abilities like stun/provoke/featherfoot that need to be instant cast are exempt from the GCD
2. battles provide plenty of strategic opportunities to justify the long wait between abilities
3. there is a queue system so we can trigger an ability, then queue up the next ability to autofire as soon as possible


By the way, I totally agree with this. My main concern is that as important as #2 is, it probably won't be the case at all. For battles to be strategic, there needs to be a substantive interplay between player and enemy. That's difficult to achieve when the primary battle mechanics are the traditional MMO ones (basic stats and a handful of status ailments). You don't have to "out-think" enemies so much as you have to "out-stat" them. And that's a failing paradigm, because it doesn't challenge players. At best, that kind of combat can maintain a minimal level of engagement IF:


And thats why i just can't play mmos much anymore, except for a little gw2 here and there(gw2 has its own, special flaws that keep me from playing it more). What is the point of going into combat already knowing the outcome, based on your stats? Ok, i know i will take X amount of damage, but i'll do 3X amount of damage in return for the win. Great. There is very little wiggle room usually, and often that wiggle room ends up being hotfixed because it is deemed an exploit.

Consequently, in most mmos, i tend to try to use skill to overcome battles that my stats tell me are unwinnable, because thats where a lot of the fun is for me. Basically, this usually means kiting. That's it. That's really the only skill-based technique i can think of, aside from exploiting terrain or whatever (i do consider that a skill btw)and its just not enough to keep me playing.

I realize i'm mostly just complaining and not offering my own solutions. But tbh i'm really not that much of an original thinker (just a critical one)
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#62 Dec 07 2012 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, and I think GW2 is an example of a game that paces combat just well enough to make it feel engaging. Throw in a little dodging, and at least you have slightly above average gameplay.

Quote:
Consequently, in most mmos, i tend to try to use skill to overcome battles that my stats tell me are unwinnable, because thats where a lot of the fun is for me. Basically, this usually means kiting. That's it. That's really the only skill-based technique i can think of, aside from exploiting terrain or whatever (i do consider that a skill btw)and its just not enough to keep me playing.


Same here, really. That and playing around with unique (not necessarily optimal) configurations.

Solutions aren't that hard, though. There are lots of strategy elements and action elements from other games for example. Creativity helps, but isn't required.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Dec 07 2012 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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well yeah, exactly. I could give "solutions", but they'd pretty much be a frankenstein of features/mechanics from other games that my critical brain recognizes as smart design.

For instance, i'm leaning towards a system that is sort of a hybrid between Dark Souls and GW2. I'm kind of at the point where i just want full on action based combat, with most of the customization happening in the back end. In DS for instance, you distribute points into your base stats, which affects everything from how much weight in gear you can equip, to how many spells you can learn, to how fast you can swing/run/dodge, etc etc.

In theme park mmos, I tend to always look for passive traits rather than new abilities that clog my hotbars. GW2 is great for this reason, and my frankenstein system would inculde unlocking passive traits as well. (+x crit chance, increased rate of stamina regen, etc)

Finally, to keep the actual combat fresh, i'd want plenty of unlockable combat moves. This is all assuming a controller as the default input device, and in fact as i type this i'm realizing i am sort of contradicting myself; these "moves"are really just abilities, which i just poo-poo'd. So what i'm really getting at is that I don't like hotbars. I want to keep it skill-based. Kind of like Street Fighter.

I'm sort of bleeding into another active thread here where speed of leveling and rewards per level are being discussed, but its pertinent here as well. But my main point is that i'd like more skill based action combat combined with robust backend customization.


ps. I was thinking about the dodge mechanic in GW2, and its really nothing more than a .5 second invincibility when you get down to it (you aren't actually 'dodging' projectiles with your hitbox) Not sure where i'm going with that, but i thought it was interesting how such a small trick can make combat so much more engaging.
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#64 Dec 08 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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I don't care much for hotbars either. I actually think it's kind of insane that the primary peripheral for MMOs comes from typewriters. Having said that, here's one simple solution that I've proposed for years and I can't quite figure why no one is doing it: controller combo shortcuts. It's no more complicated than what you just described. Let's say I have 20 abilities that I actively use. Well, I could have two lines of hotbars like most games. But I could just as easily program a controller to recognize that A+B=7, A+X=8, A+Y=9, A+L1=10, and so forth. That's why controllers work so well as peripherals. Aside from being vastly more ergonomic, they're optimized for accepting simultaneous inputs. With most MMOs I've played, you can do this with maybe the Shift/Alt/Cont buttons, and that's it.

It should be very easy to make any MMO controller-friendly using this method. But when you do so, it's easy to see how much of a controller's responsiveness is wasted on these games. Looking at most MMOs today from that perspective, it's easy to see how they are really just ****** action-strategy games.

Personally I can envision all kinds of potential for good action AND strategy based MMOs. That's the fun thing about systems--there's not one feature that always works better than others. It's how well they play together. And that's what irritates me about this habit of current developers to design around entire systems that are really not that good, because they haven't figured out how to bring the same fundamental gameplay diversity from single-player and console games to the genre. I mean, I'm not even that big on copying features from other games. I actually am good at creating original designs and making them work. But even if I wasn't, I could borrow features and systems from other games a lot more effectively than most MMOs.

I have to wonder how much of it is just hiring practices. You hire designers who like MMOs, and they're going to copy the stuff they like without knowing how to do much else. That's why we get such slight redesigns of existing games.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Dec 08 2012 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Footage related to topic video.

Gotta say I agree with most of what was said here. It's basically XIV 1.0 combat running in a new UI with lots of flashy spell effects, but not much more. Really, the only bright spot here is the fact that it's alpha and doesn't represent(although, most likely does) what the final release version will be.

Also, on second look it does not seem that spells are interrupted by taking damage every time, just on occasion. That gives me some hope, but the fact that the GCD is still triggered doesn't bode well for the future. Depending on how the GCDs are linked across spells or schools of spells, this could be really bad when casting times and cooldowns lengthen at higher levels.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#66 Dec 08 2012 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I like how they started out trying to be nice, and then started to rip it apart.

"Everything is standard now... normal, boring..."

Pretty much what I've been saying since the gameplay trailer was release. It doesn't show well. They need to drop the global cool down and add ability queuing. God. ****. It. That's like, the bare minimum fix they could do.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 Dec 09 2012 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I actually think it's kind of insane that the primary peripheral for MMOs comes from typewriters.


I have been saying that for years. "Hey let's repurpose these ancient word processing tools for modern day gaming". It just seems like such a ghetto, duct-taped solution to me.


tbh, i'm pretty sure the real culprit is the FPS. Yes, i know a K/M player will absolutely curbstomp a controller player, but why did John Carmack decide to design Doom like that in the first place? Its not ergonomic, as you said. It also (this is my opinion obviously) completely alienates me from the gameworld. I end up feeling like there's this weird seperation between me and the action onscreen. It reinforces the "playing a UI" experience, and decreases that feeling of being one with the game.

Anyway, so yeah i blame FPS game designers for starting this weird fad, and Blizzard for making it the de facto for MMO interface.

As for solutions, i know a lot of people were SWTORing with 360 controllers using Xpadder. Basically you can use the triggers/bumpers as modifiers by holding them down in conjunction with any other button on the device. Much like your idea. ****, they did it in Marvel Ultimate alliance and it worked just fine. If anything, the rest of the UI becomes the bottleneck in this type of scenario.

Interesting and topical sidenote: the Qwerty keyboard is tremendously outdated, since it was designed with old timey typewriters in mind. Apparently the Qwerty setup somehow minimized jamming of the mechanical arms. The Dvorak layout, which you've probably never heard of because people seem to prefer tradition over smart design, grouped keys based on frequency of use and resulted in 30% faster typing. World record holding typists (who cares, i know) all used Dvorak layout keyboards.
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#68 Dec 09 2012 at 1:11 AM Rating: Good
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McDomination wrote:
The thing is though, if you haven't played every single MMORPG in existence, this is different and innovative.


So is fan-fiction, assuming you never consult the immediate source material.
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#69 Dec 09 2012 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing that bothers me is that let's say, hypothetically, keyboard and mouse is just objectively better regardless of the UI. That's only because gamepads have never bothered to borrow from the keyboard features. If you look at a standard controller, there is TONS of room for additional buttons. Not hard to tack a mousewheel on either if it's so superior. Personally I prefer a UI designed away from the point and click mechanics because I actually don't think the mouse is a good tool for it. I mean, I just love for one hand to be glued to a 2D plane while I'm playing my game. I'd rather have an infrared emitter/sensor configuration, which comes standard on the Wii. Wazzat?

Drives me crazy how people just absolutely must have a mouse because it's so easy, but point and click technology that doesn't tether you to a desk? Why, that's a bunch of gimmicky nonsense!
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#70 Dec 09 2012 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Footage related to topic video.

Gotta say I agree with most of what was said here. It's basically XIV 1.0 combat running in a new UI with lots of flashy spell effects, but not much more. Really, the only bright spot here is the fact that it's alpha and doesn't represent(although, most likely does) what the final release version will be.

Also, on second look it does not seem that spells are interrupted by taking damage every time, just on occasion. That gives me some hope, but the fact that the GCD is still triggered doesn't bode well for the future. Depending on how the GCDs are linked across spells or schools of spells, this could be really bad when casting times and cooldowns lengthen at higher levels.



Wow talk about coincidence. I just watched that and came here with the intention of posting it, but you beat me to it!

I am a big Gamebreaker fan(they are very critical, though they definitely play favorites, and do a lot of bandwagoning),and i have to agree with much of what was said there as well. However, they were really exaggerating a lot, in some cases being downright unfair ("he's clicking!" so what? they're showing the mouse functionality. "he's backpedaling!" seriously? "he's clicking through the quest text!" umm no, he really isn't)

The interesting backstory to this is that the host and head honcho of GBTV, Gary Gannon had an XIV show waaaaaay back in the day when GBTV was just a fledgling podcast in hiis living room. And he reaaaaaaaally wanted to love XIV. A lot. Sometimes i go back and watch those old podcasts on itunes just to watch his enthusiasm turn slowly into fear, then disgust. Gannon clearly feels burned by Square Enix.

In one episode of TWIMMO over a year ago, he made a big deal of throwing the XIV box on the floor. It was an uncomfortably childish moment in an otherwise professional career.

I was kinda tickled that Mike B, the host with the beard, the man responsible for the infamous 1.0 copypasta video, the brave hero who dared ask Tanaka why the game had no jump feature, is now the sole defender of ARR on GBTV.

BUT, Gary Gannon's real issue was with the PR value of the video. And he's right. As PR, its absolute garbage. I did feel like it was borderline offensive though, when he suggested that SE get a team of Americans to quality test their videos. Like, wtf dude. So now all Japanese people make bad demo videos? gg, GG.
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#71 Dec 09 2012 at 1:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
The thing that bothers me is that let's say, hypothetically, keyboard and mouse is just objectively better regardless of the UI. That's only because gamepads have never bothered to borrow from the keyboard features. If you look at a standard controller, there is TONS of room for additional buttons. Not hard to tack a mousewheel on either if it's so superior. Personally I prefer a UI designed away from the point and click mechanics because I actually don't think the mouse is a good tool for it. I mean, I just love for one hand to be glued to a 2D plane while I'm playing my game. I'd rather have an infrared emitter/sensor configuration, which comes standard on the Wii. Wazzat?

Drives me crazy how people just absolutely must have a mouse because it's so easy, but point and click technology that doesn't tether you to a desk? Why, that's a bunch of gimmicky nonsense!


Okay thats it. Let's form our own company and make games.

I did find that switching to trackball made K/M a bit more bearable btw. It feels more like a controller, in that you can hold it anywhere you **** well please. And its great for that circle strafing business that pvpers go nuts about.
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#72 Dec 09 2012 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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zam's acting silly again. el doublo posto.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 2:22am by Llester
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#73 Dec 09 2012 at 1:28 AM Rating: Default
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I took his point that they needed someone to screen the demo videos for American audiences, because clearly Japanese players and American players look for different things. We have a much more robust MMO market here. What cuts it for the average JP player is old hat to the average US player, and I think they're spot on that SE really needs some perspective from the U.S.. I know they're trying, and they look at other games, but clearly they're out of touch with why certain features work and others don't. And I've been saying that since 2002-- SE's approach to game design is trial and error, with not nearly enough trial. They must be big believers of the iterative process, because it's like they really don't put much forethought into what they put out anymore.

I mean, I really want them to succeed. Badly enough that I would pay them to let me consult for them (and at this rate they probably need the money). They have no shortage of people willing to tell them what US players want, but it seems like they're actually not very well connected to the message, even with the forums and all. They seem like they're perpetually behind the times and they don't even know why.

To be fair, they're not the only ones. Have you looked at that new Oblivion MMO by Bethesda? Even from what little I've seen, that's obviously going to be a disaster. And when you get down to it, their plan is the same as FFXIV's: Make a completely standard MMO. If it didn't work for BioWare with SWTOR, making a standard MMO with a really great story system, why will it work for these other industry titans? Answer: it won't.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#74 Dec 09 2012 at 1:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Okay thats it. Let's form our own company and make games.


Get the money and I will follow you to the ends of the earth.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 Dec 09 2012 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I took his point that they needed someone to screen the demo videos for American audiences, because clearly Japanese players and American players look for different things. We have a much more robust MMO market here. What cuts it for the average JP player is old hat to the average US player, and I think they're spot on that SE really needs some perspective from the U.S.. I know they're trying, and they look at other games, but clearly they're out of touch with why certain features work and others don't. And I've been saying that since 2002-- SE's approach to game design is trial and error, with not nearly enough trial. They must be big believers of the iterative process, because it's like they really don't put much forethought into what they put out anymore.

I mean, I really want them to succeed. Badly enough that I would pay them to let me consult for them (and at this rate they probably need the money). They have no shortage of people willing to tell them what US players want, but it seems like they're actually not very well connected to the message, even with the forums and all. They seem like they're perpetually behind the times and they don't even know why.

To be fair, they're not the only ones. Have you looked at that new Oblivion MMO by Bethesda? Even from what little I've seen, that's obviously going to be a disaster. And when you get down to it, their plan is the same as FFXIV's: Make a completely standard MMO. If it didn't work for BioWare with SWTOR, making a standard MMO with a really great story system, why will it work for these other industry titans? Answer: it won't.


No, i agree that his intention with the statement was exactly what you said, it just came out of his mouth sounding so...wrong. In fact, it took Hilary (the valley girl with the hair who laughs and says "i don't know" a lot) of all people to put his thought into a sentence that made sense.

But yeah, another point the hosts made(and i sadly agree with) is that SE is like, 3 years behind the rest of the mmo scene (i'd say more like 7). On the other hand, Yoshi mentioned that he plays Rift and GW2, and i was hoping we'd see some of that influence bleed over, at the very least.

The Elder Scrolls MMO...yeah. It does have 3 faction pvp and a control scheme supposedly reminiscent of Oblivion/Skyrim, but we all know its still going to be the same old crap repackaged in an Elder Scrolls skin, with one or two new, "revolutionary" features.
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#76 Dec 09 2012 at 2:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I was hoping we'd see some influence too. Some. That's why I say that I think he's a bit out of touch with western games. It's easy to play those games and say, "Oh, so this is what they like," without really understanding what we like, or why we like it. That's the impression that I'm getting, anyway. There was great opportunity to take the best of FFXI and other western games and create something amazing. Instead, I expect we're going to get something that combines the most mediocre elements of either.

By the way, I don't suppose you're much of a programmer?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#77 Dec 09 2012 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, what i was REALLY hoping for was some actual innovation, but i'd settle for a few dynamic elements borrowed from Rift/GW is what i think i meant. Look at me talking like i've already played the game.

Kachi wrote:

By the way, I don't suppose you're much of a programmer?


I was hoping you were. Damnit. My degrees are in Fine Arts and Digital Art for Game Design.

Programmers are the drummers of the software world. Never enough to go around.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:43am by Llester
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#78 Dec 09 2012 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually have a programmer but she manages to stay pretty tied up, and she's really more equipped for web development. But we actually have a few projects on the to-do list that are web-based or mobile apps. I work with what I've got. But yeah, programmers often work long hours for gigs that actually pay, so it can be hard to snag them for start-up projects if you don't have an in.

That said, we'll have upcoming need of an extra artist for our project if you're interested (she's capable but I like to save her for coding when I can). It'd have to be volunteer until the subs start rolling in, but it's fairly easy work at least. Mostly icon design, maybe some monster design (though I'm hoping to find an illustrator for that), and a few webpage graphics. Even if you don't do a lot, it'd be cool to have you on the project.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#79 Dec 09 2012 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
In one episode of TWIMMO over a year ago, he made a big deal of throwing the XIV box on the floor. It was an uncomfortably childish moment in an otherwise professional career.


GBTV used to have a channel devoted to XIV. It was up and running months prior to release and he and the co-host were pumped for it. They apparently both played XI and were excited for the new game, but the final episode pretty much summed it up. I guess it could be called childish but honestly, if I hadn't been lucky enough to play the alpha(lucky in the sense that it was enough of a sour taste to keep me from forking out money), I probably would have done the same or worse with a CE.

Llester wrote:
Gary Gannon's real issue was with the PR value of the video. And he's right. As PR, its absolute garbage.

Couldn't agree more. Most people interested in the game at this point have already been exposed to the fact that the initial launch failed and many of those have already tried it. Even if someone had never been exposed to XI or XIV 1.0, this video is really pretty boring.

Click a mob. Click a spell. Wait 4 seconds. Click another(or the same) spell. Wait another 4 seconds. Wake Winter up and tell him to wipe the drool off his chin. Repeat.

I suppose it could be offensive to suggest that American's would do a better job, but we all know SE can do a better job. How and why would you follow up on the blockbuster final CS from 1.0 with stuff like this? The official trailer for ARR really needs to deliver or people probably won't be willing to even give the game a chance at all, much less a second chance if they're considering returning.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#80 Dec 09 2012 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Drives me crazy how people just absolutely must have a mouse because it's so easy, but point and click technology that doesn't tether you to a desk? Why, that's a bunch of gimmicky nonsense!

Mouse is just faster and more efficient when it comes to things like selecting targets, moving your camera, drag-and-drop items into or out of windows ect.

The only way I see controller overtaking mouse as a better option for controls in games like this would be for humans to evolve and grow more thumbs Smiley: laugh
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#81 Dec 09 2012 at 4:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Or they could just design controllers with more buttons. I mean, pick up a controller nearby. How many of your fingers are you actually using?

As for your mouse, it's not necessarily any more efficient than a D-stick. You have to move your entire hand around to make a mouse do what a D-stick can do with a thumb. I hardly call that efficient. The only difference is that D-sticks aren't optimized for the user interface in the MMOs. That's more a design issue for the developers than a problem with the peripheral.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#82 Dec 09 2012 at 5:19 AM Rating: Default
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Leave it to Square to release a video making it look boring, generic and bland in every way. Way to aim low SE.

How many people that aren't already invtested in this game actually think that video is exciting? I have less interest in playing this after watching that video than before. Boring questing, boring fighting and bland world.

I check back on this game now and then because I loved FFXI (which SE destroyed) but honestly I'm not seeing anything here that's ground breaking or even done better than any other mmo I can buy right now. Even the next gen graphics look a lot worse, guess I'm sticking with my current mmo afterall.

I don't think Yoshi grasps how hard it is to succeed in the mmo market these days at all, this is not anywhere near good enough. The only place this may pass it in Japan but in the west this is a joke. If that's representitive of the game then this is going to be a huge flop, again.
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#83 Dec 09 2012 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
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@FilthMcNasty
So that video pretty much sums up the negative impressionnewcomers to the game *may* get.
As for me, I did like what I see, but I am not a newcomer. I've been following the apparent progress
of this game for over 2 years now, so I am biased to take a second, third, and even forth look at
everything, simply because I am "hooked". However, if this was NOT Final Fantasy, and if it was
NOT a game that allowed me to play with the whole world, I doubt I would be impressed by what
I see, as I usually do not select the games I play by polygon counts and shader complexity.
At this point, I think it's o.k. to wonder about what this game is really going to bring to the table.

- Good graphics? - Definitely.
- Engaging combat? - Umm-humm.
- A good storyline? - Umm-humm.

I guess we'll see. But I remember that - despite the fact that even those games did not manage to
retain their initial success later - when I first saw promotion stuff about TERA, Rift, and SWTOR, the
classes and their mechanics simply looked snappy, interesting, and most of all: unique and fun.
Mercenary. Berserker. Riftstalker. Sith Consular. Templar. And each with it's own cool (sounding)
abilities: Riftwalk. Force lightning. Sattelite strikes. Inventive stuff. Lots of snares, debuffs, decoys,
switches, conditional abilities. Even if it's just the basically same stuff every other MMO has in another
color. And we get: Fire. Water. Stone. Double-stab-speat attack. 3-stab-spear attack. With lots of
explosions that seem in no way related to the actual abilities being used.
#84 Dec 09 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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@FilthMcNasty
So that video pretty much sums up the negative impressionnewcomers to the game *may* get.

I've tried to be optimistic about XIV, and I did point out several things I like about the video. The problem is that I'd seen these things before in other videos of ARR. There isn't really anything new.

The graphics look good... still. The combat looks stale... still.

One thing is for sure though. If there is anyone who plays MMOs simply based on how shiny the spell effects are for casting and abilities, they have met their match. Never before have I seen a level 4 ability look so glorious. Actually, now that I think about it... the 4 second GCD makes sense because if you lowered it to something that seems more reasonable, you wouldn't be able to play out the entire 5 second theatrical version of the spell effect. Not only that, but if you were able to spam them the heat coming off of your GPU would probably lead you to believe Ifrit was in your room with you. How's that for immersion?

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 10:15am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#85 Dec 09 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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For those complaining about keyboards.... Look, some of us have wrist problems and controllers and mice just don't hack it for long term usage. I have a special ergonomic mouse that cost me a lot of money, and it still hurts for me to use it over a long period of a time. The humble keyboard doesn't cause me wrist pain like a controller or a mouse does, and I can use it for hours on end. The only bit of my body that hurts after a long PC gaming session is my neck, because I have such bad posture.

What's wrong with including the keyboard in the planned UI interface? I believe the mouse, a controller, and a keyboard should all be viable options. As long as someone has a choice, it's okay.
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#86 Dec 09 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Llester wrote:
In one episode of TWIMMO over a year ago, he made a big deal of throwing the XIV box on the floor. It was an uncomfortably childish moment in an otherwise professional career.


GBTV used to have a channel devoted to XIV. It was up and running months prior to release and he and the co-host were pumped for it. They apparently both played XI and were excited for the new game, but the final episode pretty much summed it up. I guess it could be called childish but honestly, if I hadn't been lucky enough to play the alpha(lucky in the sense that it was enough of a sour taste to keep me from forking out money), I probably would have done the same or worse with a CE.



ah yes those were the days. Kenzie, whose cuteness was only matched by her complete and utter inability to see the flaws in the game she was playing. Actually it was also matched by her overuse of the irritating phraseword, "whatnot", as well as the gibberish and non-sequitors she tended to spout.

And Gary, who wanted to love it sooooo much, but had this annoying thing called a critical mind, which obviously kept him from enjoying the game fully. That was the show that put Gamebreaker on my radar, and it was mostly because Gary Gannon seemed to be looking for the exact same things i was in an mmo. And his experience with the game seemed to mirror mine, although I kept coming back to check up on the development process, because well, i had time to do so. Obviously he had to move on.

The box-throwing just made him look silly. Sort of an embarrassing bravado moment Maybe it's just me, I sometimes have a weird sense of what is appropriate. Also, he didn't actually play XI. She did, but apparently just let her cuteness carry her through the game, because she seemed to barely understand it at all.

Responding to the last part of your post, the more i think about this Alpha trailer, the more i get confused. I feel like up until this point, the new team has been spot-on. Like you, I feel like they are not only capable of something more, but I also really thought they were on the same page as we are. That they understood that fans need something mega-ultra-exciting to bring them back. Should be interesting to see how they respond to this.

I do have kind of a theory about this. Its a theory based more on hope than logic, but still. I have this weird feeling that maybe its a cultural thing, where the Japanese companies (mistakenly) don't see this video as PR. This is more of an advanced proof of concept video, or a glorified tech demo. And the PR gameplay video isn't done yet, since well, its still Alpha. I'm talking directly out of my **** here, and even if i am correct, they still need to get with the times.
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#87 Dec 09 2012 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Or they could just design controllers with more buttons. I mean, pick up a controller nearby. How many of your fingers are you actually using?

As for your mouse, it's not necessarily any more efficient than a D-stick. You have to move your entire hand around to make a mouse do what a D-stick can do with a thumb. I hardly call that efficient. The only difference is that D-sticks aren't optimized for the user interface in the MMOs. That's more a design issue for the developers than a problem with the peripheral.



seriously this first part. Where's the controller with buttons all over the bottom, for your other fingers? It really could work.


As for the D-stick vs mouse thing, yes I agree if we're talking standard issue mouse, but a trackball puts all that movement right back in your thumb again. That and that alone is what allowed me to play SWTOR for as long as I did. And even then, it was really only the PvP/friends that kept me playing. Tbh, SWTOR was the closest to XI in terms of community that I've seen so far. Probably because all the SWG vets came out of their coldsleep capsules to play it, for like a year. Now they're all playing SWG-EMU haha.

edit: GODDAMNIT I just had the best idea ever! A trackball controller! Replace the right stick with a trackball and it solves a lot of these issues. Then I had to go google it and ruin everything. http://trackballcontroller.com/

of course several individuals have been working on their own versions of this for years. Bleh. Well good news is the product exists, albeit in prototype formats. But you can buy it. So thats good news. But im depressed now because for a split second i thought i actually had something new come out of my brain. moooooving on.

edit asgain: there's also this: http://www.razerzone.com/minisite/onza

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:08pm by Llester

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:42pm by Llester

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:48pm by Llester
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#88 Dec 09 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I actually have a programmer but she manages to stay pretty tied up, and she's really more equipped for web development. But we actually have a few projects on the to-do list that are web-based or mobile apps. I work with what I've got. But yeah, programmers often work long hours for gigs that actually pay, so it can be hard to snag them for start-up projects if you don't have an in.

That said, we'll have upcoming need of an extra artist for our project if you're interested (she's capable but I like to save her for coding when I can). It'd have to be volunteer until the subs start rolling in, but it's fairly easy work at least. Mostly icon design, maybe some monster design (though I'm hoping to find an illustrator for that), and a few webpage graphics. Even if you don't do a lot, it'd be cool to have you on the project.


That sounds great. I'd definitely be interested. My illustration skills are actually pretty good. I was gunning for concept artist until I made the (probably poor) decision to go the safer environmental artist route.

Regardless, I've just been doing graphic design stuff (logo work mostly), and my 3ds max skills are sadly out of practice. I never stop drawing though. I'll PM you with more info.
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#89 Dec 09 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
The box-throwing just made him look silly. Sort of an embarrassing bravado moment Maybe it's just me, I sometimes have a weird sense of what is appropriate. Also, he didn't actually play XI. She did, but apparently just let her cuteness carry her through the game, because she seemed to barely understand it at all.

Perhaps, but you can't deny that it's probably the reaction just about anyone who wasted $80 on the CE did or at least, wanted to do.

As for the statement about XI, I wouldn't doubt it. Then again, the same could be said for most of the population. We're talking about a game where people face certain directions and only craft during certain moon phases. We're also talking about a game whose mechanics defined the manner in which players were 'allowed' to participate. We're talking about the same game that had you standing still, waiting.

Llester wrote:
I do have kind of a theory about this. Its a theory based more on hope than logic, but still. I have this weird feeling that maybe its a cultural thing, where the Japanese companies (mistakenly) don't see this video as PR. This is more of an advanced proof of concept video, or a glorified tech demo.

For the same reason, I don't see why some people find the comment about the possibility of the video being better if it were produced by a NA company. My theory is that people who are offended don't realize we're talking about a company who went 8 years before releasing their own official forum. A company who, up until that point, was tight-lipped about the most trivial details. This type of player probably thinks they're blessed to be exposed to the wonder that is eastern game development.

I guess we're just spoiled in the west. We want explanations for changes, answers to questions and regular feedback from developers to assure us that our concerns for a game, a service that we pay for, is actually providing service.

If there were one thing that you could take away from the shortcomings of XIV 1.0... one phrase that should make you shudder when you read it...

well, its still Alpha
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#90 Dec 09 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Llester wrote:
The box-throwing just made him look silly. Sort of an embarrassing bravado moment Maybe it's just me, I sometimes have a weird sense of what is appropriate. Also, he didn't actually play XI. She did, but apparently just let her cuteness carry her through the game, because she seemed to barely understand it at all.

Perhaps, but you can't deny that it's probably the reaction just about anyone who wasted $80 on the CE did or at least, wanted to do.

As for the statement about XI, I wouldn't doubt it. Then again, the same could be said for most of the population. We're talking about a game where people face certain directions and only craft during certain moon phases. We're also talking about a game whose mechanics defined the manner in which players were 'allowed' to participate. We're talking about the same game that had you standing still, waiting.


Both good points. I think I had a much greater tolerance for XIV simply because it was "different" and I like to give things that are different a chance. Especially growing up playing old school rpgs that tended to feature game mechanics that were straight up retarded (or good ideas poorly implemented)because designers were just throwing things at the wall hoping they'd stick. I still believe that XIV 1.0 had a few great concepts that were destroyed by lack of cohesiveness and just plain bad implementation, all sitting under the tattered, leaky umbrella of a horribly optimized engine.

I kept checking in on XIV instead of doing some major box-tossing because its not often that you get to have front row seats to a show like this, and I've basically just been wanting to see how it ends. Watching the game change has been more interesting than playing it, that's for sure.

As for XI, we should always keep context in mind. It's easy to poo-poo XI now for all its ridiculous mechanics, but at the time, that stuff was all new and fun. I resubbed to XI this summer to play with old friends, and even they couldn't keep me around. It was just too **** taxing/mind-numbing/time-wasting to justify logging in. After the nostalgic high wore off, I was out the door.

Also, it was my understanding that Kenzie was brought in as a sort of FF expert, and she was pretty bad at that, is what I meant.

FilthMcNasty wrote:

For the same reason, I don't see why some people find the comment about the possibility of the video being better if it were produced by a NA company. My theory is that people who are offended don't realize we're talking about a company who went 8 years before releasing their own official forum. A company who, up until that point, was tight-lipped about the most trivial details. This type of player probably thinks they're blessed to be exposed to the wonder that is eastern game development.

I guess we're just spoiled in the west. We want explanations for changes, answers to questions and regular feedback from developers to assure us that our concerns for a game, a service that we pay for, is actually providing service.

If there were one thing that you could take away from the shortcomings of XIV 1.0... one phrase that should make you shudder when you read it...

well, its still Alpha


haha true strike re: the phrase of doom.

I completely see your point, and tbh I'm not holding my breath for some insanely exciting gameplay trailer. I can see now that I took what Gary said the wrong way,even though I knew what he meant. I think I mistakenly heard him make a broad generalization;"Japanese companies should hire NA production teams because Japanese can't make good gameplay trailers" (even if this is true, its kind of bad PR to say this on a popular talk show, seewhatididthere) when what he really said was "SE should hire an NA team because they clearly don't know what PR means" And he's correct, for the reasons you just mentioned.

also, yes, we are totally spoiled in the west. but if it raises standards worldwide, maybe that's okay.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 6:46pm by Llester
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#91 Dec 09 2012 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:

seriously this first part. Where's the controller with buttons all over the bottom, for your other fingers? It really could work.


As for the D-stick vs mouse thing, yes I agree if we're talking standard issue mouse, but a trackball puts all that movement right back in your thumb again. That and that alone is what allowed me to play SWTOR for as long as I did. And even then, it was really only the PvP/friends that kept me playing. Tbh, SWTOR was the closest to XI in terms of community that I've seen so far. Probably because all the SWG vets came out of their coldsleep capsules to play it, for like a year. Now they're all playing SWG-EMU haha.

edit: GODDAMNIT I just had the best idea ever! A trackball controller! Replace the right stick with a trackball and it solves a lot of these issues. Then I had to go google it and ruin everything. http://trackballcontroller.com/

of course several individuals have been working on their own versions of this for years. Bleh. Well good news is the product exists, albeit in prototype formats. But you can buy it. So thats good news. But im depressed now because for a split second i thought i actually had something new come out of my brain. moooooving on.

edit asgain: there's also this: http://www.razerzone.com/minisite/onza


Trackball is definitely better than D-pad just because you don't have to keep your thumb on it to maintain the cursor placement, but I was just using it to illustrate how a basic feature can work. Anyway, what I want is one of these bad boys (you can see some similar models in one of the pictures on the top row)... with a trackball (or two, for good measure) and of course, more buttons, along the backside and all. Now that's a peripheral I can learn to love.

For me, the problem with a controller is that it doesn't resolve the chat issues at all. You have to pick it up and put it down every time you have something to say. And those text-pads you can snap on? Feh. Nothing breaks game immersion for me like having to send my party a text message.

I know a lot of what keeps us down with new peripherals is that people are afraid to try new things. Remember the reception that the N64 controller got? Meanwhile, the PS3 is essentially using the same model as the PS1, and no one has Bob to say about it. But there are better peripherals than what we've got available, for sure, for all the people who are actually willing to take 5 minutes to learn how to use them. Which of the people I know, is actually a pretty robust group of techies. I mean, how many gamers already buy keyboards that look like a spaceship dashboard?

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 5:05pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#92 Dec 09 2012 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Did anyone else notice the additional effects for the following spells;
Lv. 01 Stone (CNJ/THM) >> None - just mentioned because of the affinity
Lv. 04 Wind (CNJ/THM) >> Wind damage over time
Lv. 15 Water (CNJ Only) >> 15 yalm knock-back

Lv. 01 True Thrust (LNC)
Lv. 02 Feint (GLA PGL MRD LNC ARC >> Additional Effect: Slow Duration: 8s
Lv. 04 Keen Flurry (GLA PGL MRD LNC ARC CNJ THM) >> Increases parry rate by 20% Duration: 15s
Lv. 06 Vorpal Thrust (LNC) >> Combo Action: True Thrust Combo Potency 200
Lv. 10 Heavy Thrust (LNC) >> Combo Bonus: Heavy Duration: 10s Combo Potency 200
Lv. 15 Piercing Talon (LNC)

In case you missed it.
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#93 Dec 09 2012 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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It's good to see that there are additional effects on the attacks. I hope they aren't all little, incremental bonuses, though. There's still potential for the combat to have significant strategic elements, but strategic play requires difficult, meaningful choices. That's seldom the case when the attack does damage, "oh and 10% to something else."
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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