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I hope the devs realize soloable =/= easyFollow

#1 Dec 10 2012 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Im fine with things being soloable as long as the devs understand that making something soloable doesnt mean it has to be a piece of cake... for example soloing all the missions in dc universe online is stupidly easy... thats not what i want..

I want something like trying to open treasure coffers for af.. where its 100% possible to do solo (if youre patient and cautious) but youd have an easier time with help. Or like Demon Souls where its 100% soloable. but you gotta stay on your toes and bring your A game if you wanna get the job done

in otherwords make soloable fight whee i can go in feeling like i may very well lose, instead of fights I practically CANT lose.. something thats gonna make me fear for my life (or exp at least)... something where Im gonna breathe a sigh of relief when its over and feel like Ive made an accomplishment because I took something down knowing that it coulda killed me at any time if I decided to not stay focused and get cocky... instead of something thats as easy as "attack all day.. heal when necessary... repeat til dead"


So if they wanna make things more soloable thats fine with me just still provide SOME challenge.. sure that doesnt mean make everything that soloable., to the point where it IS soloable but you have to have skill and gear on the level of that taru rdm (i forgot his name) that could solo the bomb king ring

but make it so that youre skills have to be at least decent/intermediate to pull it off, instead of making it so easy that even ppl whove only been playing 5 minutes could do it too.
#2 Dec 10 2012 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.
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#3 Dec 10 2012 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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I agree with Wint, I like the idea of challenging content but I could definitely see a lot of people complaining once it has been made 'challenging' that they don't want to take x amount of minutes to kill. Then if they make it so both the mob and the player die easier then people would complain about too easy to die... in the end the reason why mechanics for the genre are stagnant is that nobody has really found a good 'middle' ground.
#4 Dec 10 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.



umm a fight can be challenging without taking 30 mins lol... and even IF they took 30 mins dont the BCNMs give you a 30 minute time limit anyway? you dont wanna take 30 mins doing a fight? ok wait til youre over leveled and THEN go do it... problem solved
#5 Dec 10 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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They already had this in FFXIV 1.0 though.

It wasn't efficient to just o solo kill monsters, but you could do leves and set the difficulty as high or low as you could handle. (with larger rewards for higher)

And when they say this game is soloable, they mean to get to max level, not in-game content. I don't see a problem with solo leveling as long as they provide party options that are more efficient, and plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of things to do along the way and at max level.

The ability to level sync for content is great though, because if you get bored of running the same dungeon, you can mix it up in lesser dungeons.
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#6 Dec 10 2012 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
They already had this in FFXIV 1.0 though.

It wasn't efficient to just o solo kill monsters, but you could do leves and set the difficulty as high or low as you could handle. (with larger rewards for higher)

And when they say this game is soloable, they mean to get to max level, not in-game content. I don't see a problem with solo leveling as long as they provide party options that are more efficient, and plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of things to do along the way and at max level.

The ability to level sync for content is great though, because if you get bored of running the same dungeon, you can mix it up in lesser dungeons.



not if level sync was as bad as it was in FFXI lol
#7 Dec 10 2012 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
They already had this in FFXIV 1.0 though.

It wasn't efficient to just o solo kill monsters, but you could do leves and set the difficulty as high or low as you could handle. (with larger rewards for higher)

And when they say this game is soloable, they mean to get to max level, not in-game content. I don't see a problem with solo leveling as long as they provide party options that are more efficient, and plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of things to do along the way and at max level.

The ability to level sync for content is great though, because if you get bored of running the same dungeon, you can mix it up in lesser dungeons.



not if level sync was as bad as it was in FFXI lol


Agreed, I was very excited when they had first mentioned level sync in FFXI but after seeing the implementation for it... it was all but worthless for a handful of people.
#8 Dec 10 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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wdrekx wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
They already had this in FFXIV 1.0 though.

It wasn't efficient to just o solo kill monsters, but you could do leves and set the difficulty as high or low as you could handle. (with larger rewards for higher)

And when they say this game is soloable, they mean to get to max level, not in-game content. I don't see a problem with solo leveling as long as they provide party options that are more efficient, and plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of things to do along the way and at max level.

The ability to level sync for content is great though, because if you get bored of running the same dungeon, you can mix it up in lesser dungeons.



not if level sync was as bad as it was in FFXI lol


Agreed, I was very excited when they had first mentioned level sync in FFXI but after seeing the implementation for it... it was all but worthless for a handful of people.



yeah really.... you can wear your equipment and weapons from high level during level sync but instead of the stuff being scaled properly.. it was like you were using starting gear and an onion weapon from the starting stuff... the gear you could buy at level 30 was better than wearing youre level 75 gear while synced to level 30 lol... so yeah youre pretty much "naked" in a level sync party... hardly whats id call "good idea"
#9 Dec 10 2012 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Level sync was fine in FFXI.

The point is to use a job you already leveled in lower content. Was it REALLY that terrible to have to buy some gear? And most gear was fine anyway. After 55, some slots were never upgraded, like your belt, or Hauby. Level sync was one of the best features they ever added.

People got their hope up way to high (with people expecting the soboro to sync down and still be multi-hit...) and then were upset because they couldn't. Weapon dmg and def synced, stat bonuses didn't.
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#10 Dec 10 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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no i wasnt expecting the soboro to sync down nd still be multi hit.. more like kirin osode sync down and be like +3 to every stat at 30 instead of +10.. as for gear being fine level synced.. so youre telling me if you took a level 75 group to do the peacock charm bcnm or promyvion in high level gear while synced that would be just as good as if you went with gear that was actually for the required level (30 for promy when it was capped) and 40 for pcc)?
#11 Dec 10 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like for it to be difficult but possible to solo to cap, but if you grind with a party then you would reach it much faster and more efficiently. That way those who don't want to wait can grab a party and zoom to max while those of us who don't want to try to find groups or have limited play time and don't want to leave a group hanging can still get there in due time.
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#12 Dec 10 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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well i dont mind if the grinding is stupidly easy ads long as the other content thats soloable isnt
#13 Dec 10 2012 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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I hope they push more party styled events. What exactly is the point of a "Multi Player Game" that you can solo.

I rather hope that there is something along the lines of CoP when it came out, we hated it we cursed it we rage quit every week but **** when you and your 5 Now friends beat it chose your ring it felt good knowing you had beaten it.

Sure there is solo'able content thats what town npc quests are for. Yea you can go grind to 10/15 solo, but at some point to gain real xp you need to LFG. Yes the more casual I can only play 2 hours player isn't going to get chains and as much xp as a pty will but thats life you play a MMO knowing you don't have the time. If said casual player needs help thats where being in a LS comes into play. Your LS mates will know you haven't much time and will certainly include you in a schedule best fit for you.

At the end of the day I want ARR to give me that sense of adventure I lost in XI and was disappointed not to find in v1. Making new friends an discovering new things together not alone solo.

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#14 Dec 10 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Default
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Time flows like a river and history repeats.
Internet discussions: unless something happens, the same topics emerge every 2 months.
#15 Dec 10 2012 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Time flows like a river and history repeats.
Internet discussions: unless something happens, the same topics emerge every 2 months.


And as usual you have nothing of worth to add Smiley: tongue
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#16 Dec 10 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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'twas enough to catch your attention.
Not worth it, you say?
#17 Dec 10 2012 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
'twas enough to catch your attention.
Not worth it, you say?


Touché Smiley: laugh
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#18 Dec 10 2012 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
no i wasnt expecting the soboro to sync down nd still be multi hit.. more like kirin osode sync down and be like +3 to every stat at 30 instead of +10.. as for gear being fine level synced.. so youre telling me if you took a level 75 group to do the peacock charm bcnm or promyvion in high level gear while synced that would be just as good as if you went with gear that was actually for the required level (30 for promy when it was capped) and 40 for pcc)?


Yep.

I trio'd PCC all the time with 2 BLU and 1 Whm kiting. We did in full af because it was easy. Could swap in a few level appropriate gear. How much is a full set of level 30 gear anyway, 40k total? Then you can sell it back... It wasn't an issue. And previously, you needed all level 30 gear anyway to do a promy so what's the issue?

But this is a different developer so maybe higher gear will sync, but if it doesn't I won't care, because the important part is playing with friends who are lower level, or helping lowbies out.

Edited, Dec 10th 2012 9:24pm by Louiscool
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#19 Dec 10 2012 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.

This is true, but only if it isn't enjoyable. I play TERA and some of the BAMs(equivalent to NMs) in that game can take upward of half an hour to solo.

How long is too long if you're really enjoying the game? I think that would be the key question to ask when developing solo content. If people can enjoy a 10+ minute fight against a mob then I could see it being viable.
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#20 Dec 10 2012 at 10:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.

This is true, but only if it isn't enjoyable. I play TERA and some of the BAMs(equivalent to NMs) in that game can take upward of half an hour to solo.

How long is too long if you're really enjoying the game? I think that would be the key question to ask when developing solo content. If people can enjoy a 10+ minute fight against a mob then I could see it being viable.


If people could gain the same exp killing 1 monster for 10 minutes or 10 monsters in one minute, I would take 10 minutes every time. I enjoy longer fights, it's not fun to kill quickly, IMO. There's no strategy to surviving quick fights other than kill faster than your HP bar goes down.
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#21 Dec 10 2012 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.

This is true, but only if it isn't enjoyable. I play TERA and some of the BAMs(equivalent to NMs) in that game can take upward of half an hour to solo.

How long is too long if you're really enjoying the game? I think that would be the key question to ask when developing solo content. If people can enjoy a 10+ minute fight against a mob then I could see it being viable.


Plenty of excellent games prove that players can enjoy long fights against mobs. Take the Monster Hunter series, for example... that entire franchise is based around fighting only boss mobs, and it's incredibly successful.

Here's another game where players loved choosing targets that took 5 minutes to kill: FFXI. Remember in the early days when all the parties only wanted to pull the toughest mobs they could beat? Players loved that. They hated that they could spend so long killing a mob only to hit the cap of 200 XP, but they did it anyway because it gave them a sense of accomplishment to take down something difficult. Then, of course, players realized that the XP/hour was awful, so parties stopped doing that. They hated that they could spend hours killing an HNM and get 10 XP. Players also hated the death XP penalties and the long wait times to recoup from wipes. They hated being stuck in the same camps for weeks.

It's sad to me when people assume that difficult party fights were something that FFXI did poorly, or even extend that to think that players don't like long fights in general, when it was really just everything around them that was done poorly in FFXI. Most players loved tackling challenging monsters, but the game punished them for doing it in too many ways. If they had just made the XP rewards scale better to reflect the difficulty, players would still be aiming for IT+++ opponents, and FFXI would probably be a much more successful game in general.
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#22 Dec 10 2012 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think another limiter in grinding in XIV 2.0 will be that TP bar. 1000 points is what you start with, but if you keep flailing away at monsters while eating up all your TP, you could run out at some point and be left waiting for the bar to recharge and relying on solely on auto attack. Hopefully that will encourage some strategy to your grind to keep a balance of TP and kill speed.
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#23 Dec 11 2012 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.

This is true, but only if it isn't enjoyable. I play TERA and some of the BAMs(equivalent to NMs) in that game can take upward of half an hour to solo.

How long is too long if you're really enjoying the game? I think that would be the key question to ask when developing solo content. If people can enjoy a 10+ minute fight against a mob then I could see it being viable.

Here's another game where players loved choosing targets that took 5 minutes to kill: FFXI. Remember in the early days when all the parties only wanted to pull the toughest mobs they could beat? Players loved that. They hated that they could spend so long killing a mob only to hit the cap of 200 XP, but they did it anyway because it gave them a sense of accomplishment to take down something difficult.

Time != difficulty

XI wasn't difficult to kill an EM mob solo or IT++ in a group of 6. It was tedious and boring. The only excitement I had in XI fighting exp mobs higher than DC was on BST and that was mostly due to the 'oh ****' factor of a pet randomly losing charm and failing to recharm it several times in a row while trying to kite. Any other time I stuck to EP/DC mobs because I loathed going afk for 10 mins while resting for hp/mp. I wouldn't say it was any less fun because it took less time to kill mobs, but it was certainly more effective and efficient.

I think you're sort of agreeing with my general point, but I disagree with your statement about XI. I was really just trying to point out that people will enjoy encounters regardless of length if the combat is fun and engaging. Neither XI or XIV displayed that on a consistent basis even disregarding mob difficulty.
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#24 Dec 11 2012 at 3:15 AM Rating: Good
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In my opinion, if yoshida and SE are gonna take something from World of Warcraft it should be the balance they have been able to strike, between hardcore content and casual friendly content.(With a few exceptions here and there) I do understand whoever that since most of you are rabid FFXI fans, anything wow related is a big No No! But the balance that WOW was able to strike from BC to WOTLK was pretty good for both camps, there was plenty of hardcore content, and plenty access for casuals into end game Content. What i would agree with the more PRO XI crowd would be a slower leveling pace, not as slow as XI perhaps but something in Between. Unless 2.0 is full of variety content, then by all means let it be as slow as XI.
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#25 Dec 11 2012 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Time != difficulty

XI wasn't difficult to kill an EM mob solo or IT++ in a group of 6. It was tedious and boring. The only excitement I had in XI fighting exp mobs higher than DC was on BST and that was mostly due to the 'oh sh*t' factor of a pet randomly losing charm and failing to recharm it several times in a row while trying to kite. Any other time I stuck to EP/DC mobs because I loathed going afk for 10 mins while resting for hp/mp. I wouldn't say it was any less fun because it took less time to kill mobs, but it was certainly more effective and efficient.

I think you're sort of agreeing with my general point, but I disagree with your statement about XI. I was really just trying to point out that people will enjoy encounters regardless of length if the combat is fun and engaging. Neither XI or XIV displayed that on a consistent basis even disregarding mob difficulty.


I wasn't saying that time equates to difficulty. I was just saying that long battles don't inherently equate to not having fun. So yeah, we were making the same point.

However, I generally disagree about killing IT++ being tedious and boring. Earlier in the game's life, these were abundantly challenging for a party of 6. It was boring at times for unrelated reasons, but it was generally more fun to tackle IT++ with skillchains and MB than it was to chain VT endlessly. Neither was a perfect model, but the former was more easily improved upon. With the IT++, the problems related to mob distribution, general lack of things to do in combat, and long healing time after battle (the last two being things you just pointed out). Those things are fixable at least. Chaining VTs, there's just no challenge to be had, unless you count XP chaining, which generally had more to do with how many competitors were at your camp than anything.

So I was just pointing out that longer battles can be fun--I know enough people enjoyed them in FFXI, the many design flaws surrounding them aside.

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 1:29am by Kachi
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#26 Dec 11 2012 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
However, I generally disagree about killing IT++ being tedious and boring. Earlier in the game's life, these were abundantly challenging for a party of 6. It was boring at times for unrelated reasons, but it was generally more fun to tackle IT++ with skillchains and MB than it was to chain VT endlessly.

SC/MB wasn't really necessary to keep chain on IT mobs in XI, and I just don't see how it was challenging. The only difficulty I ever had related to XI's group leveling system was finding 6 players of the same level, with the required mix of jobs, who were geared properly, brought the proper meds and food and who understood their role in the group was more of an accomplishment then anything that took place after those conditions were filled. To be honest, the only real challenge or difficulty after reaching a camp was pulling, especially if the camp was being shared.

I can't speak for everyone, but most would probably agree that getting the best rate of exp for your time spent was more satisfying than killing a mob you were really too low to be killing. All the best camps I partied at were ones than had mostly VT mobs with a few IT/EM and even DC mobs scattered in. A good puller could keep a steady chain of mobs coming to the group based solely on their assessment of the group's condition; pulling mobs of various toughness to either conserve MP, store up TP or just keep the exp chain going. If the rest of the group could understood when to fire off WS and when to rest for MP then it was pretty monotonous.

VT > IT unload >VT > IT unload >VT > IT unload

Substitute either T++ or IT mob in depending on how MP is holding up or how lucky/unlucky you were with mob TP abilities. Rinse and repeat. As long as you had a group who could count to 6 and a puller who was aware enough to avoid links and pull the correct mobs, there really wasn't anything difficult about it.

Kachi wrote:
Chaining VTs, there's just no challenge to be had, unless you count XP chaining, which generally had more to do with how many competitors were at your camp than anything.

Right, but it wasn't much harder to chain ITs than it was to stick only to VTs. It was just less efficient.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#27 Dec 11 2012 at 6:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I can't speak for everyone, but most would probably agree that getting the best rate of exp for your time spent was more satisfying than killing a mob you were really too low to be killing. All the best camps I partied at were ones than had mostly VT mobs with a few IT/EM and even DC mobs scattered in.


Guess I have to throw in my gauntlet here. I was around when Skillchains, Bursts and Sneak-Trick Attacks were still used, and when ye olde tincan Paladin was all we had to take the beating. No fancy Ninja puffballs, Sir. All tempered steel. And god, we tempered those plates cold with our bare fists. Since fire was not yet invented. In the old days.

And I can tell you sonny, that something changed to the bad around 2006, when pink birds suddenly replaced Goblins and Dhalmels as EXP crops to feed our children. Pink birds were no challenge. Pink birds died before becoming a challenge. Dhalmels and Goblins were. But pink birds were better EXP/hour, so we traded our fun, and with it our souls, to the greedy god of EXP/HOUR. Because it was the most rational thing to do.

I may not speak for those who came after, but I liked me some bruises to show I had really earned that EXP. And I know many others did, too. But I also liked me to be on top of the food chain, so I reluctantly fried Kentucky pink birds. And left shortly after.
#28 Dec 11 2012 at 6:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Or, in short:
- Reward highest risk with highest EXP/hour.
- Provide a "play save" option (e.g., chaining pink birds) that provides 75% of that ratio almost risk free.
/ Profit.

Depressingly, SE sucks at the distinction between (skill-dependent) risk and (time-dependent) investment.
So I guess what we get is some remote, locked-away area only accessible after clearing the same dungeon
750.000 times in a row, filled with just-as-easy EXP mobs that give 25% more EXP/hour than the regular ones.
#29 Dec 11 2012 at 7:27 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
In my opinion, if yoshida and SE are gonna take something from World of Warcraft it should be the balance they have been able to strike, between hardcore content and casual friendly content.(With a few exceptions here and there) I do understand whoever that since most of you are rabid FFXI fans, anything wow related is a big No No! But the balance that WOW was able to strike from BC to WOTLK was pretty good for both camps, there was plenty of hardcore content, and plenty access for casuals into end game Content. What i would agree with the more PRO XI crowd would be a slower leveling pace, not as slow as XI perhaps but something in Between. Unless 2.0 is full of variety content, then by all means let it be as slow as XI.



care to give some examples of WoW hardcore content cause everyone seems o make it sound as if (especially those from teh early days of FFXI) that WoW is all easy/casual with NO difficulty to be found.. so yeah Id liek to hear of some of WoW difficult moments that way I may actually have hope for FFXIV lol
#30 Dec 11 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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I kind of hate how much agree with Rinsui on this one, but he's absolutely right Smiley: wink

Quote:
SC/MB wasn't really necessary to keep chain on IT mobs in XI, and I just don't see how it was challenging. The only difficulty I ever had related to XI's group leveling system was finding 6 players of the same level, with the required mix of jobs, who were geared properly, brought the proper meds and food and who understood their role in the group was more of an accomplishment then anything that took place after those conditions were filled. To be honest, the only real challenge or difficulty after reaching a camp was pulling, especially if the camp was being shared.

I can't speak for everyone, but most would probably agree that getting the best rate of exp for your time spent was more satisfying than killing a mob you were really too low to be killing. All the best camps I partied at were ones than had mostly VT mobs with a few IT/EM and even DC mobs scattered in. A good puller could keep a steady chain of mobs coming to the group based solely on their assessment of the group's condition; pulling mobs of various toughness to either conserve MP, store up TP or just keep the exp chain going. If the rest of the group could understood when to fire off WS and when to rest for MP then it was pretty monotonous.

VT > IT unload >VT > IT unload >VT > IT unload

Substitute either T++ or IT mob in depending on how MP is holding up or how lucky/unlucky you were with mob TP abilities. Rinse and repeat. As long as you had a group who could count to 6 and a puller who was aware enough to avoid links and pull the correct mobs, there really wasn't anything difficult about it.


That's where the problem lies... you're comparing the two and deciding which one was more fun. And I'm saying that yes, chaining VTs and low ITs was more fun for most players, because that meant that they were XPing successfully. What's missing in this discussion is a comparison of chaining VTs/ITs and killing IT+++s when both are actually implemented well. And in that case, people want to take on things that are more challenging... when they will be rewarded for it.

And as for the IT+++ mobs, they were absolutely a challenge. They required a higher level of play. If you didn't manage hate well, hit your SCs and MBs, use your abilities wisely, the IT+++ would kill your party. Conversely, VTs and low ITs left plenty of room for error. We can set aside the discussion about how little skill FFXI actually requires--you'll get no argument from me there. But of the potential skill that one could harness to achieve a victory in FFXI, IT+++ required much more skill. Unfortunately, it didn't pay off, and when you have to spend weeks in the Crawler's Next killing caterpillars, something happens. It changes a man. The fire in his eyes slowly dies.

Wait, sorry... Rinsui kind of got in my head there.

Point being, in every party I ever joined in the first year or two of play, players always wanted to pull the IT+++ because they wanted to be badasses. They wanted to kill something with a little fight in it. And then, two or three years later, I remember all the kicking and screaming that occurred (on this very forum) about how much more efficient it was to chain VTs and low ITs. Eventually it became accepted, and players rejoiced because they were getting much better XP per hour than every before! And they could even move around the zone to kill things! But the actual act of killing a monster for XP became nothing more than a chore. Any semblance of challenge was gone. Unfortunately, players still had hundreds of thousands of XP to earn to cap their merits and whatnot, and now, not a lot of viable ways to get it, what with only a few zones supporting that kind of XPing.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Dec 11 2012 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Ostia wrote:
In my opinion, if yoshida and SE are gonna take something from World of Warcraft it should be the balance they have been able to strike, between hardcore content and casual friendly content.(With a few exceptions here and there) I do understand whoever that since most of you are rabid FFXI fans, anything wow related is a big No No! But the balance that WOW was able to strike from BC to WOTLK was pretty good for both camps, there was plenty of hardcore content, and plenty access for casuals into end game Content. What i would agree with the more PRO XI crowd would be a slower leveling pace, not as slow as XI perhaps but something in Between. Unless 2.0 is full of variety content, then by all means let it be as slow as XI.



care to give some examples of WoW hardcore content cause everyone seems o make it sound as if (especially those from teh early days of FFXI) that WoW is all easy/casual with NO difficulty to be found.. so yeah Id liek to hear of some of WoW difficult moments that way I may actually have hope for FFXIV lol


I didn't play WoW, but I watched a couple of friends do a high level 10 man raid a few years ago. There was this giant fire breathing dragon. Two players in the raid had to coordinate and grab thick chains to bind the dragon's neck to the ground, preventing him from moving enough so that people could actually hit him. Everyone else had to constantly run around to avoid standing in the pools of fire that he was spraying around. It took them four or five tries to get the timing down on binding him with the chains, and then there was a great deal of confusion on Ventrillo or w/e as they actually tried to 1. keep the tank alive and 2. kill the dragon before he broke free of the chains.

It was super fun looking for the guy playing the tank. It was really boring for his wife, the healer. She just kept clicking squares to cure people.

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 4:46pm by catwho
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#32 Dec 11 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
That's where the problem lies... you're comparing the two and deciding which one was more fun.


Not really. I'm just pointing out that most people leaned toward making the most exp in the least amount of time, regardless of how much they enjoyed it.

Kachi wrote:
Point being, in every party I ever joined in the first year or two of play, players always wanted to pull the IT+++ because they wanted to be badasses. They wanted to kill something with a little fight in it. And then, two or three years later, I remember all the kicking and screaming that occurred (on this very forum) about how much more efficient it was to chain VTs and low ITs. Eventually it became accepted, and players rejoiced because they were getting much better XP per hour than every before! And they could even move around the zone to kill things! But the actual act of killing a monster for XP became nothing more than a chore. Any semblance of challenge was gone. Unfortunately, players still had hundreds of thousands of XP to earn to cap their merits and whatnot, and now, not a lot of viable ways to get it, what with only a few zones supporting that kind of XPing.


This passage only serves to reinforce the idea I presented. I can't lie, I was shocked and amazed when my first group killed an IT mob shortly after I was sent to my homepoint after having my *** handed to me by a mob that was only supposed to present a decent challenge. That feeling was heightened when I saw exactly what sort of effect chaining mobs had on exp gain. That said, the feeling wore off shortly after I tried to calculate how many of those chain 5 pulls I would have to participate in to level 1 of the 7 or 8 jobs I was interested in to the cap. T

I used to see people out leveling new jobs killing EP mobs and bragging about the 120 exp they gained. Meanwhile I'm steadily mowing down EP mobs for less exp per kill, but far less risk and downtime which leads to more exp overall. I used to see people in my groups wearing all out STR/ATK gear and eating meat bragging about their massive crits and WS, meanwhile I'm missing far less and hitting faster with my ACC food and haste gear so I end up with more DoT.

My point here is that gaining exp quickly and efficiently whether alone or in a group was never a matter of skill. It was all about your knowledge and understanding of the game and it's mechanics...

Something a lot of people probably didn't know and still don't, you could insert a DC mob into your exp chain and still keep the chain alive. The DC mob doesn't give the bonus when you kill it, but the following mob will continue the chain as long as it's the appropriate level or above. Example:
Target -> Result

Even Match -> You gain 100 experience points.
Decent Challenge -> You gain 70 experience points.
Even Match -> EXP chain # 2 You gain 140 experience points.

Now this isn't game breaking and may not come as a shock to a few people, but this knowledge can help you keep a chain going if you're running low on time, allow you to rest if you're low on MP or allow you to store up some TP and take down a tougher mob for the next bonus. Am I more skilled than most players because I understand how the mechanic works? Probably not.I'm more skilled because I'm white box onry Smiley: sly



Edited, Dec 11th 2012 12:37pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#33 Dec 11 2012 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Not really. I'm just pointing out that most people leaned toward making the most exp in the least amount of time, regardless of how much they enjoyed it.


Exactly. And that's one of the problems with FFXI. First of all, the XP gameplay is generally not enjoyable, so players pick the route which is the most expedient. Secondly, they made the most expedient route to gaining XP even less enjoyable than the route that players naturally wanted to take and generally derived more enjoyment from.

I don't think we're really in disagreement here. I'm just trying to point out that the fact that players choose the fastest way to XP doesn't mean that they prefer it because it's fun. As you just said, it's because it's not particularly fun either way you slice it, so they picked the fastest way. In my earlier arguments, I was explaining how it could actually be fun to XP. The best way to make it fun is to work with the IT+++ model to preserve as much challenge as possible.

Quote:
My point here is that gaining exp quickly and efficiently whether alone or in a group was never a matter of skill. It was all about your knowledge and understanding of the game and it's mechanics...


There's really nothing I hate more than waxing semantics, but the application of knowledge and understanding IS skill, almost by definition:

Quote:
the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance


Again, I'm not going to argue with you that FFXI isn't a generally low-skill game... nearly all MMOs are on the market today. However, it absolutely takes some level of skill to take down mobs with a significant statistical advantage. At the very least, there's no doubt that it takes more skill than taking on mobs with a very minor statistical advantage.

Maybe I've misread your point again. If you were simply suggesting that XP/hour came down to knowledge of the game's XP mechanics rather than game skill, then I agree to an extent, but that really only reinforces my criticism of the game's XP mechanics.

Again, not sure if we're actually disagreeing about anything or just talking in circles.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#34 Dec 11 2012 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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yeah, I always thought giving better exp for harder encounters (not just in guildleves, which are boring) would be the way to go. So a coblyn (remember that era everyone) that goes down in two hits would give 20 exp, and the goat that took you 2 minutes to solo would give 2000 exp. That would be way more fun.

Even though it was really inefficient in terms of raw exp I used to go out and hunt odd things in XIV... it always made me sadface how little exp I would get for something like wolves or goats that took longer to kill than cobylns. I've always hated two-hit kill stuff. But so many games, if you can't insta kill it, it is almost a promise that it will overpower you. It's fail.
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#35 Dec 11 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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What people fail to realize is what current MMOs have done is pretty much remove 90% of the grinding and allow most of your leveling experience to come from quests. *edit* There's a good mix of solo and party quests with better loot related to party quests, so group vs solo is irrelevant until endgame. *edit* If Square-enix is looking to make money then they have to cater to the casual masses which unfortunately is not most FFXIV/FFXI players.

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 5:08pm by BunnyFufinator

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 5:09pm by BunnyFufinator
#36 Dec 11 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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BunnyFufinator wrote:
What people fail to realize is what current MMOs have done is pretty much remove 90% of the grinding and allow most of your leveling experience to come from quests. There's a good mix of solo and party quests with better look related to party quests. so group vs solo is irrelevant until endgame. There's a good mix of solo and party quests with better look related to party quests. If Square-enix is looking to make money then they have to cater to the casual masses which unfortunately is not most FFXIV/FFXI players.

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 5:08pm by BunnyFufinator



Try not to speak for FFXIV players. FFXIV official boards are rather divided on this issue as well.

The general consensus is that there should be a soloable storyline, and a group storyline, and they should run parallel to one another. They achieved this mostly through the Grand Company plotlines, though the single player storyline got shelved due to the push for A Realm Reborn.

As far as reaching level cap solo. That should be possible, period. Anything short of it would gut the player numbers. That said, things like Job ability quests, those can require a group, as jobs are generally designed around groups, where Classes are primarily designed as solo functions.
#37 Dec 11 2012 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Am I more skilled than most players because I understand how the mechanic works? Probably not.I'm more skilled because I'm white box onry Smiley: sly



Thank you for helping me spit orange juice onto my keyboard...
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#38 Dec 11 2012 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
'twas enough to catch your attention.
Not worth it, you say?


i could catch his attention by posting a picture of, say, paris hilton's head photoshopped onto a *****, but that'd be worth about as much as your post. or this post. ah well.


edit: Ok i'll contribute. I haven't played The Secret World (though I will soon, as it is going F2P) but I watched a video review (BFF Report) recently and I like the way they do their quests. You don't get a ton of little one-off quests. You get basically one quest at a time, that has tiers or chapters to it. Its a small difference but its a step in the right direction. Just like the Job Quests or storyline quests in XI/XIV, it hooks you with a sense of progression and maybe even keeps you from spacebarring/clicking through quest dialogue.

I thought i'd have more to say on this topic. I'm afraid i'm losing interest in playing mmos though.

Edited, Dec 11th 2012 8:59pm by Llester
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#39 Dec 11 2012 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
My point here is that gaining exp quickly and efficiently whether alone or in a group was never a matter of skill. It was all about your knowledge and understanding of the game and it's mechanics...


There's really nothing I hate more than waxing semantics, but the application of knowledge and understanding IS skill, almost by definition:

Quote:
the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance


Again, I'm not going to argue with you that FFXI isn't a generally low-skill game... nearly all MMOs are on the market today. However, it absolutely takes some level of skill to take down mobs with a significant statistical advantage. At the very least, there's no doubt that it takes more skill than taking on mobs with a very minor statistical advantage.

Maybe I've misread your point again. If you were simply suggesting that XP/hour came down to knowledge of the game's XP mechanics rather than game skill, then I agree to an extent, but that really only reinforces my criticism of the game's XP mechanics.

My point was just that doing well in a group wasn't really a skill. The definition you posted applies and I don't disagree with it, just the application of it wasn't applied much during battle.

There was nearly nothing during the course of a group slaughtering hundreds of crabs over and over that required you to 'use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution'. Building a group of suitable jobs with damage types and/or skills that would enhance performance was done prior to leaving for camp. Making sure everyone has the proper meds for travel and food based on level difference was also done beforehand. Setting up at camp and discussing positioning, SC and MB was all done before you ever engaged a mob.

After that, the only 'skill' required was executing SC/MB which was pretty straightforward. I guess that conserving your abilities and MP/TP could be considered a skill, but after repeating the same actions hundreds of times in dozens of locations, it became more instinctive than anything else. The only thing I really took issue with you saying was that fighting IT++ mobs was more challenging than chaining VT. You're essentially doing the same thing but sacrificing time for more exp per kill.
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#40 Dec 11 2012 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Ostia wrote:
In my opinion, if yoshida and SE are gonna take something from World of Warcraft it should be the balance they have been able to strike, between hardcore content and casual friendly content.(With a few exceptions here and there) I do understand whoever that since most of you are rabid FFXI fans, anything wow related is a big No No! But the balance that WOW was able to strike from BC to WOTLK was pretty good for both camps, there was plenty of hardcore content, and plenty access for casuals into end game Content. What i would agree with the more PRO XI crowd would be a slower leveling pace, not as slow as XI perhaps but something in Between. Unless 2.0 is full of variety content, then by all means let it be as slow as XI.



care to give some examples of WoW hardcore content cause everyone seems o make it sound as if (especially those from teh early days of FFXI) that WoW is all easy/casual with NO difficulty to be found.. so yeah Id liek to hear of some of WoW difficult moments that way I may actually have hope for FFXIV lol


Naxx at cap level 60 was difficult, only less than 1% from total population where even able to reach the final boss. BC was all around the most hardcore expansion, they had a path of progression, in which you needed to beat a previous raid and obtain gear, in order to advance to the next one, with it's opening raid being karazhan in which you had to complete a really long quest, that required you to beat every single heroic dungeon (At that time those where hard for casuals) and considering only a few guilds where even able to complete Sunwell (The last raid on the expansion) as far as WOTLK Ulduar is the pinnacle of Blizzards content design, on normal it was brutal and on hardmode it was just almost impossible to complete for your run of the mill guild, you had to be the best of the best.

In my opinion the difference between how blizzard develops content and how SE does, is hugely different, Blizzard develops actual hard engaging content, with no restrictions on access, while SE designs simple mechanical fights but with 150 million hp and 60 phases fights, that take 5+ hours or puts in place massive roadblocks so that only people with 10hrs a day can access. (AV for example is the worst designed boss fight i have ever seen in any game) A fight should be hard, but not flat out impossible with the tools the game provides you.

For example Blizzard could have released Arthas the lich king as it was in WOTLK on Vanilla WOW, and nobody could have beaten him, because the tools the game had provided up to that point where not meant for such a fight, so in essence we could have had a "Wow impossibly hard fight" and claim the game was hardcore, but in reality it was bad design :)
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#41 Dec 11 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Ostia wrote:
In my opinion, if yoshida and SE are gonna take something from World of Warcraft it should be the balance they have been able to strike, between hardcore content and casual friendly content.(With a few exceptions here and there) I do understand whoever that since most of you are rabid FFXI fans, anything wow related is a big No No! But the balance that WOW was able to strike from BC to WOTLK was pretty good for both camps, there was plenty of hardcore content, and plenty access for casuals into end game Content. What i would agree with the more PRO XI crowd would be a slower leveling pace, not as slow as XI perhaps but something in Between. Unless 2.0 is full of variety content, then by all means let it be as slow as XI.



care to give some examples of WoW hardcore content cause everyone seems o make it sound as if (especially those from teh early days of FFXI) that WoW is all easy/casual with NO difficulty to be found.. so yeah Id liek to hear of some of WoW difficult moments that way I may actually have hope for FFXIV lol


Naxx at cap level 60 was difficult, only less than 1% from total population where even able to reach the final boss. BC was all around the most hardcore expansion, they had a path of progression, in which you needed to beat a previous raid and obtain gear, in order to advance to the next one, with it's opening raid being karazhan in which you had to complete a really long quest, that required you to beat every single heroic dungeon (At that time those where hard for casuals) and considering only a few guilds where even able to complete Sunwell (The last raid on the expansion) as far as WOTLK Ulduar is the pinnacle of Blizzards content design, on normal it was brutal and on hardmode it was just almost impossible to complete for your run of the mill guild, you had to be the best of the best.

In my opinion the difference between how blizzard develops content and how SE does, is hugely different, Blizzard develops actual hard engaging content, with no restrictions on access, while SE designs simple mechanical fights but with 150 million hp and 60 phases fights, that take 5+ hours or puts in place massive roadblocks so that only people with 10hrs a day can access. (AV for example is the worst designed boss fight i have ever seen in any game) A fight should be hard, but not flat out impossible with the tools the game provides you.

For example Blizzard could have released Arthas the lich king as it was in WOTLK on Vanilla WOW, and nobody could have beaten him, because the tools the game had provided up to that point where not meant for such a fight, so in essence we could have had a "Wow impossibly hard fight" and claim the game was hardcore, but in reality it was bad design :)



now THAT i like the sound of.. lets hope FFXIV follows suit as far as ffxi not having hard content.. just stuff with roadblocks that ppl who cant spend 10 hours a day cant do...

again... CoP before it was nerfed.. and Im not talking about SOLELY endgame..


soo promyvions were easy? the mammets in riverne? oryu? mithrain trackers? the weapons (omega/ultima)? (though they werent as bad)ark angels (which anyone who had sky could partake in thus not needing 10 hours to play)? all of that was easy right?
#42 Dec 11 2012 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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CoP was easy if you had a static.

We only had to redo two BCs 6-4 and 8-4 -- and we got them both on the second try. This was in spring 2005, to be fair, when people had had six months to tackle the stuff before we did and come up with some strategies. Still, if you had good people and the right jobs, the fights weren't hard, just gimmicky.
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#43 Dec 11 2012 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
CoP was easy if you had a static.

We only had to redo two BCs 6-4 and 8-4 -- and we got them both on the second try. This was in spring 2005, to be fair, when people had had six months to tackle the stuff before we did and come up with some strategies. Still, if you had good people and the right jobs, the fights weren't hard, just gimmicky.



i had a static.. but we did em all on day one.. meaning there was no guides.. and we didnt have the "perfect" setups.. no smns or nins in my group so no astral flow for mithra trackers, no ninx3 whmx3 for mammets, no /nin tanks for promyvions.. and since we were doing it on day 1 there was no guides or strategies already done to try to follow.. we had to figure it out on our own.. even in some cases me doing into fights solo during non events time s(or duo) and testing things out to see how they work/what would work then apply it to the REAL fight when we go in with 6 ppl and actually win..

THATS the kinda stuff i want some fights in FFXIV to force me to have to do... sure i was 23-24 back then and Im 30 now.. but I can still do it.. I may be getting old/older but im not THAT old.. I dont intend on my gaming skills/reflexes to dull for at least another 15-20 years lol
#44 Dec 11 2012 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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LOL that's what we got when Abyssea first came out. NO ONE knew how it worked. Took us at least three months to get a handle on the exp chains and light system, and another few months to fully understand how the procs worked. By the time we had it mostly figured out, SE released a new set of zones that had their own quirks.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#45 Dec 11 2012 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
LOL that's what we got when Abyssea first came out. NO ONE knew how it worked. Took us at least three months to get a handle on the exp chains and light system, and another few months to fully understand how the procs worked. By the time we had it mostly figured out, SE released a new set of zones that had their own quirks.



lol now thats the kinda stuff i like
#46 Dec 12 2012 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My point was just that doing well in a group wasn't really a skill. The definition you posted applies and I don't disagree with it, just the application of it wasn't applied much during battle.

There was nearly nothing during the course of a group slaughtering hundreds of crabs over and over that required you to 'use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution'. Building a group of suitable jobs with damage types and/or skills that would enhance performance was done prior to leaving for camp. Making sure everyone has the proper meds for travel and food based on level difference was also done beforehand. Setting up at camp and discussing positioning, SC and MB was all done before you ever engaged a mob.

After that, the only 'skill' required was executing SC/MB which was pretty straightforward. I guess that conserving your abilities and MP/TP could be considered a skill, but after repeating the same actions hundreds of times in dozens of locations, it became more instinctive than anything else. The only thing I really took issue with you saying was that fighting IT++ mobs was more challenging than chaining VT. You're essentially doing the same thing but sacrificing time for more exp per kill.


You must have not grouped a lot in your average pickup. Even in well-built groups, there were often very visible gaps in the skills between one player and another. But again, I'm not arguing that there's a lot of skill required, and I think the average players gets about as good as they'll ever be well before they hit 75.

catwho wrote:
CoP was easy if you had a static.

We only had to redo two BCs 6-4 and 8-4 -- and we got them both on the second try. This was in spring 2005, to be fair, when people had had six months to tackle the stuff before we did and come up with some strategies. Still, if you had good people and the right jobs, the fights weren't hard, just gimmicky.


I had a static and it was hard. We didn't have an ideal configuration, mind you. I think it was something like PLD, SMN, BLM, SAM, THF, DRG. We usually had to figure out our own strategy. It was difficult, but way more fun than picking a group based on jobs and following the strategies online.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Dec 12 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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"I had a static and it was hard. We didn't have an ideal configuration, mind you. I think it was something like PLD, SMN, BLM, SAM, THF, DRG. We usually had to figure out our own strategy. It was difficult, but way more fun than picking a group based on jobs and following the strategies online."


This x 100
#48 Dec 12 2012 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.

This is true, but only if it isn't enjoyable. I play TERA and some of the BAMs(equivalent to NMs) in that game can take upward of half an hour to solo.

How long is too long if you're really enjoying the game? I think that would be the key question to ask when developing solo content. If people can enjoy a 10+ minute fight against a mob then I could see it being viable.

Here's another game where players loved choosing targets that took 5 minutes to kill: FFXI. Remember in the early days when all the parties only wanted to pull the toughest mobs they could beat? Players loved that. They hated that they could spend so long killing a mob only to hit the cap of 200 XP, but they did it anyway because it gave them a sense of accomplishment to take down something difficult.

Time != difficulty

XI wasn't difficult to kill an EM mob solo or IT++ in a group of 6. It was tedious and boring. The only excitement I had in XI fighting exp mobs higher than DC was on BST and that was mostly due to the 'oh sh*t' factor of a pet randomly losing charm and failing to recharm it several times in a row while trying to kite. Any other time I stuck to EP/DC mobs because I loathed going afk for 10 mins while resting for hp/mp. I wouldn't say it was any less fun because it took less time to kill mobs, but it was certainly more effective and efficient.

I think you're sort of agreeing with my general point, but I disagree with your statement about XI. I was really just trying to point out that people will enjoy encounters regardless of length if the combat is fun and engaging. Neither XI or XIV displayed that on a consistent basis even disregarding mob difficulty.


I'm going to disagree sloghtly about fights in FFXI not being challenging or interesting. Yes, fighting tigers and IT++++ skeletons was boring, but all of my solo attempts were VERY fun and challenging. Examples:

-Solo EXPing as Drg/Blu, with healing breath - super fun even if the exp wasn't fantastic, and it required skill (Would kill T+ Colibri)
-Sam/Dnc with Soboro - Super fun, and challenging.
-Blue Mage with haste setup, stunlocking NMs or zerging things weak to blunt. Even solo exping for merits on Imps, though that was a "Kill before you die" kind of thing.
-Corsair Light Shot soloing / kiting more that a few tier 1 ZNMs
And my favorite,
-Puppetmaster solo Spurrer Beret.

But, I think most of these were more about tricking the game and less about besting the enemy in a challenge (particularly the Spurrer Beret).
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#49 Dec 12 2012 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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-Sam/Dnc with Soboro - Super fun, and challenging.


Smiley: nod I loved rocking my +EVA gear as a SAM/dnc.

Lots of the game's battles could be challenging if you overhunted and didn't bring an ideal party. And I think for as much as players had it in their heads that they had to be getting #K/hour, if XPing were generally more friendly, say with less of a death penalty and a much better return on investment for IT++++ mobs, players would have had enough fun XPing that they wouldn't mind playing around with suboptimal groups.

The game was not designed in such a way that it required a great deal of skill, but it could have required a whole lot more by encouraging players to take on monsters that were well out of their league. By the time I left the game, I could solo most of the mobs the average party would XP on.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Dec 12 2012 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, then people could complain that the fights take too long.

This is true, but only if it isn't enjoyable. I play TERA and some of the BAMs(equivalent to NMs) in that game can take upward of half an hour to solo.

How long is too long if you're really enjoying the game? I think that would be the key question to ask when developing solo content. If people can enjoy a 10+ minute fight against a mob then I could see it being viable.

Here's another game where players loved choosing targets that took 5 minutes to kill: FFXI. Remember in the early days when all the parties only wanted to pull the toughest mobs they could beat? Players loved that. They hated that they could spend so long killing a mob only to hit the cap of 200 XP, but they did it anyway because it gave them a sense of accomplishment to take down something difficult.

Time != difficulty

XI wasn't difficult to kill an EM mob solo or IT++ in a group of 6. It was tedious and boring. The only excitement I had in XI fighting exp mobs higher than DC was on BST and that was mostly due to the 'oh sh*t' factor of a pet randomly losing charm and failing to recharm it several times in a row while trying to kite. Any other time I stuck to EP/DC mobs because I loathed going afk for 10 mins while resting for hp/mp. I wouldn't say it was any less fun because it took less time to kill mobs, but it was certainly more effective and efficient.

I think you're sort of agreeing with my general point, but I disagree with your statement about XI. I was really just trying to point out that people will enjoy encounters regardless of length if the combat is fun and engaging. Neither XI or XIV displayed that on a consistent basis even disregarding mob difficulty.


I'm going to disagree sloghtly about fights in FFXI not being challenging or interesting. Yes, fighting tigers and IT++++ skeletons was boring, but all of my solo attempts were VERY fun and challenging. Examples:

-Solo EXPing as Drg/Blu, with healing breath - super fun even if the exp wasn't fantastic, and it required skill (Would kill T+ Colibri)
-Sam/Dnc with Soboro - Super fun, and challenging.
-Blue Mage with haste setup, stunlocking NMs or zerging things weak to blunt. Even solo exping for merits on Imps, though that was a "Kill before you die" kind of thing.
-Corsair Light Shot soloing / kiting more that a few tier 1 ZNMs
And my favorite,
-Puppetmaster solo Spurrer Beret.

But, I think most of these were more about tricking the game and less about besting the enemy in a challenge (particularly the Spurrer Beret).


Try to stay in the context of the discussion Louis. We're talking about groups killing IT mobs for experience points. I never said that defeating any mob in the game wasn't challenging(although many are arguable), just those you would normally group for to get experience points.


Edited, Dec 12th 2012 3:48pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#51 Dec 12 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Try to stay in the context of the discussion Louis. We're talking about groups killing IT mobs for experience points. I never said that defeating any mob in the game wasn't challenging(although many are arguable), just those you would normally group for to get experience points.


That's fair to the extent that players often targeted the weakest types of mobs. I think SE should have definitely tuned mobs that were heavily camped to be a bit more challenging, but one fix at a time.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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