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I hope the devs realize soloable =/= easyFollow

#52 Dec 12 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Try to stay in the context of the discussion Louis. We're talking about groups killing IT mobs for experience points. I never said that defeating any mob in the game wasn't challenging(although many are arguable), just those you would normally group for to get experience points.
Edited, Dec 12th 2012 3:48pm by FilthMcNasty


Then, in that respect, I was only ever challenged when fighting things that are normally avoided, like Soulflayers, or Coeurl (or those CoP dinosaur things with Death stare). Things that people found annoying.

But no, the enemies never made the fight interesting or challenging, just the job and the party makeup. This is why I tended to love pulling, even on corsair (some people hated pulling on cor because of the gun delay.)

Mindless random dd was boring, only the Tank and Puller (and sometimes healer) had any real diverse and changing battle environment to keep it interesting.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 5:19pm by Louiscool
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#53 Dec 12 2012 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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Try to stay in the context of the discussion Louis. We're talking about groups killing IT mobs for experience points. I never said that defeating any mob in the game wasn't challenging(although many are arguable), just those you would normally group for to get experience points.


That's fair to the extent that players often targeted the weakest types of mobs. I think SE should have definitely tuned mobs that were heavily camped to be a bit more challenging, but one fix at a time.


Most people strongly believe that the pink lotto tickets (birds) were created to be easy chain fodder to boost xp/hr numbers, which is basically almost the polar opposite approach of what you suggest. Instead of making the popular mobs harder and increasing the xp rewarded, they made new, easier mobs so the xp reward system that was currently in use could be maximized.
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#54 Dec 12 2012 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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Right, and that works if you're going to resign yourself to a system which doesn't challenge players and reward them fairly for overcoming those challenges.

If you read the entire discussion, there's important context there. I specifically stated that players should earn more XP for taking down harder monsters. e.g., raise the cap to something like 500XP for IT++++ monsters. However, if in doing so, certain breeds of monster are still so much easier that players still camp them exclusively, then those monsters should be beefed up a bit to increase the "viable" pool of XP monsters.

I think it shows how terribly lazy FFXI's designers were that they intentionally created "XP mobs" rather than actually balance the monsters so that most of them were "XP mobs." Edit: Or, didn't do it intentionally and just ignored the issue altogether.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 3:59pm by Kachi
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#55 Dec 12 2012 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Right, and that works if you're going to resign yourself to a system which doesn't challenge players and reward them fairly for overcoming those challenges.

If you read the entire discussion, there's important context there. I specifically stated that players should earn more XP for taking down harder monsters. e.g., raise the cap to something like 500XP for IT++++ monsters. However, if in doing so, certain breeds of monster are still so much easier that players still camp them exclusively, then those monsters should be beefed up a bit to increase the "viable" pool of XP monsters.

I think it shows how terribly lazy FFXI's designers were that they intentionally created "XP mobs" rather than actually balance the monsters so that most of them were "XP mobs." Edit: Or, didn't do it intentionally and just ignored the issue altogether.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 3:59pm by Kachi


Oh, I was following the trend of the conversation, I just thought it was really ironic that when you came around to the suggestion I bolded as a potential fix, it turned out to be basically the exact opposite of what was actually implemented. I like your idea better. It was an idea that often came up in PUG xp parties as well when we were dutifully chugging along getting chain 5 and 6 on crawlers or crabs. A lot of the player base felt that way. Personally, I always thought a hard cap on mob xp was stupid. And the original choice of 200 xp (IIRC) seemed ridiculous considering the xp you needed to advance in level down the home stretch to 75.

Now, I DID feel there was something to be said about a group being able to smoothly chain mobs. I really enjoyed group xp and trying out different roles in an xp party, from tank to DD to support etc. I don't think the group xp dynamic itself was bad. I much, much, muuuuuch prefer it to soloing xp via quest. I just hated the idea that you got the same xp for a chain of IT++ vs. a chain of IT++++ etc. (as per your example). And it absolutely killed me that you could make better xp/hr chaining VT when it was completely possible to chain the IT's. I preferred a battle that could turn ugly to a battle that people could afk for and still get the same xp...

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 8:29pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#56 Dec 13 2012 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just hated the idea that you got the same xp for a chain of IT++ vs. a chain of IT++++ etc. (as per your example). And it absolutely killed me that you could make better xp/hr chaining VT when it was completely possible to chain the IT's. I preferred a battle that could turn ugly to a battle that people could afk for and still get the same xp...


I agree. Imo, the quality/quantity of drops also should have scaled up along with the exp, as well as with the relative difficulty of different mob types.

i remember the day our static party figured out chaining VTs was better exp/hour. It was kinda sad. And it speaks volumes for the game's design flaws that the main goal for players (until endgame anyway) was simply finding the best exp/hour. Some people find that sort of thing fun. I didn't, even back then in the dark ages, when /emoting was still new and fun.

Also, I know i'm way behind on the discussion, but XI most definitely required skill. There's a reason there were "bad ninjas". I think people who argue that XI was a skill-less game, are forgetting what it was like to be a newbie. Shadow tanking is one of the better examples. The tank needed to know how to count shadows and drop Ni mid ichi cast. He needed to be able to time his casts, taking into account mob delay and double attack. Mages had to make sure the tank was hasted. A thief was often perceived as necessary to plant hate on the tank (this was before ninjas figured out how to DD tank)

Speaking of mages, there were plenty of "bad whms" too. I always hated going into salvage with a new WHM, because i got used to our static mages being so on the ball with status curing during Chariot and NM fights.

In fact, I could make my entire argument a lot more brief, and just say "Salvage".

Again, apologies for probably being way behind on all of this.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 6:52pm by Llester

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 6:59pm by Llester
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#57 Dec 13 2012 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
Shadow tanking is one of the better examples. The tank needed to know how to count shadows and drop Ni mid ichi cast.

I'm going to spend tomorrow approaching strangers and explaining to them that I am skilled because I can count to four. I will then count to five in a demonstration of how ******* awesome I am. Oh yes, minds will be blown.
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#58 Dec 13 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Llester wrote:
Shadow tanking is one of the better examples. The tank needed to know how to count shadows and drop Ni mid ichi cast.

I'm going to spend tomorrow approaching strangers and explaining to them that I am skilled because I can count to four. I will then count to five in a demonstration of how @#%^ing awesome I am. Oh yes, minds will be blown.




umm i dont think its the counting to 4 thats impressive.. more like youre attention span is big enough that your paying attention to your shadows mid fight (i didnt use chat filters nor did I have a pc so i didnt use a tool that showed my shadows for me), on top of the fact that you had to click off Ni at the right moment while ichi was casting so it would stick... do it to early and you lose your shadows plus get hit while casting ichi and thus get interrupted and pummeled to death with no shadows... do it too late and ichi does nothing now youre stuck with your 1 remaining (or 0) ni shadows and are vulnerable for a whole 30 secs before you can try casting again).


so yeah it takes SOME degree of skill aside from the obvious "i can count to 4" of course just mere being able to count to 4 isnt impressive... a 2 year old can do that.
#59 Dec 14 2012 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
more like youre attention span is big enough that your paying attention to your shadows mid fight (i didnt use chat filters nor did I have a pc so i didnt use a tool that showed my shadows for me), on top of the fact that you had to click off Ni at the right moment while ichi was casting so it would stick..

So you didn't need skill to count to 4, just a large enough attention span? I still don't understand why people think this was so impressive. The shadow counter is a part of the default UI now.

I personally never cancelled shadows unless I was soloing something I couldn't afford to get hit by. Trying to cancel shadows was too wonky and you almost always lost one or more swings which was generally more important to keeping aggro than avoiding damage was. If you started your cast during the mob's swing animation, you never had any issues getting ichi up unless:

1) Your debuffer wasn't landing slow(which really isn't an excuse seeing as how you could cover this yourself AND gain enmity for it as a bonus).
and/or
2) You suffered from severe lag issues(which could be countered with a little bit of experimentation in timing casts anyway so again, not really a good excuse).

There were other things which 'separated the men from the boys' when it came to ninja tanking, but keeping shadows up was not one of them, at least not to me and I'm a self-professed 'scrub' ninja. This horse needs to be left to rot.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#60 Dec 14 2012 at 3:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Llester wrote:
Shadow tanking is one of the better examples. The tank needed to know how to count shadows and drop Ni mid ichi cast.

I'm going to spend tomorrow approaching strangers and explaining to them that I am skilled because I can count to four. I will then count to five in a demonstration of how @#%^ing awesome I am. Oh yes, minds will be blown.


It's not a matter of it requiring an impressive or even particularly high level of skill, but it does require skill. It's not incredibly complicated, but it's a lot more complicated than simply counting to four. It requires timing and the ability to manage other tasks while maintaining attention to shadows.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Dec 14 2012 at 4:25 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Llester wrote:
Shadow tanking is one of the better examples. The tank needed to know how to count shadows and drop Ni mid ichi cast.

I'm going to spend tomorrow approaching strangers and explaining to them that I am skilled because I can count to four. I will then count to five in a demonstration of how @#%^ing awesome I am. Oh yes, minds will be blown.


It's not a matter of it requiring an impressive or even particularly high level of skill, but it does require skill. It's not incredibly complicated, but it's a lot more complicated than simply counting to four. It requires timing and the ability to manage other tasks while maintaining attention to shadows.


It's just an opinion. I don't feel that anything one might do on ninja that is a part of everyday tanking in an exp group requires all that much attention, focus or skill. Timing, sure... but there' s a huge gap to cast in(compared to reaction needed in most other MMOs). Outside that, there really isn't much more to keep track of. Again, against exp group fodder, I just don't see it.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#62 Dec 14 2012 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're talking about the traditional XP party, particularly in the last 5 years, then that's because there isn't that much skill to it, because the mobs you kill don't pose any significant threat. When you XP off mobs that can 1-shot a Paladin, it's a different story. It's not that it then requires so much skill. It's that even the slightest failure of that skill results in death, so it requires a higher level of play (re: application of skill), while it requires occasional but important judgment calls.

Party play has been getting more and more sanitized in FFXI as the years have dragged on (can't speak from personal experience in these last few years, only what I hear). There was definitely an increasing over-reliance on maintaining a statistical advantage, and the wider the gap gets between a naked character and a twinked character, the trickier it is to balance monsters to present a challenge for playerbase.

Doesn't hurt that most of the playerbase now has been playing for years, so they've all pretty well mastered the skill-side of playing their job. It requires a lot more skill to play in a party where not everyone is good at their job.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Dec 14 2012 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Party play is all but dead in XI, unless you count the powerleveling alliances in Abyssea.
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#64 Dec 14 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Llester wrote:
Shadow tanking is one of the better examples. The tank needed to know how to count shadows and drop Ni mid ichi cast.

I'm going to spend tomorrow approaching strangers and explaining to them that I am skilled because I can count to four. I will then count to five in a demonstration of how @#%^ing awesome I am. Oh yes, minds will be blown.


It's not a matter of it requiring an impressive or even particularly high level of skill, but it does require skill. It's not incredibly complicated, but it's a lot more complicated than simply counting to four. It requires timing and the ability to manage other tasks while maintaining attention to shadows.


It's just an opinion. I don't feel that anything one might do on ninja that is a part of everyday tanking in an exp group requires all that much attention, focus or skill. Timing, sure... but there' s a huge gap to cast in(compared to reaction needed in most other MMOs). Outside that, there really isn't much more to keep track of. Again, against exp group fodder, I just don't see it.



The main issue here is that you guys are arguing about a game that's 10 years old and said game has game mechanics and content that have changed DRASTICALLY over the course of that decade. Think about it- the context of the discussion a few posts ago was about xping off of VT chains vs. IT+++'s which, in and of itself, required completely different levels of skill and/or attention span from said tank. Not only that, but as Wint pointed out, it no longer even happens anyway. You guys are arguing about apples and oranges...
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#65 Dec 14 2012 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:

The main issue here is that you guys are arguing about a game that's 10 years old and said game has game mechanics and content that have changed DRASTICALLY over the course of that decade. Think about it- the context of the discussion a few posts ago was about xping off of VT chains vs. IT+++'s which, in and of itself, required completely different levels of skill and/or attention span from said tank. Not only that, but as Wint pointed out, it no longer even happens anyway. You guys are arguing about apples and oranges...


Pffft go away logic, you are not needed now nor ever before. Smiley: cool If we had logics involved all the time then arguments would never happen lols. But back to the issue at hand, while I personally liked some of the mechanics back then I'm not sure how well they would work now. Now a days the demographics for people that play is different, for things to be as 'challenging' as they were in FFXI you would need people with as much patience and time as we did back then. Most of the people I used to play with can no longer play even 50% of the amount of time they used to and even though they all liked it, it doesn't mean that they would want to progress at the same rate as before. Therefore I think those xp mobs were for part of the group that some of us has become and the younger generation which to me seems to be more of a generation of instant-gratification type of deal. If a game wants to appeal to the biggest demographics possible then they would have to have things for all of them, I would like to hear of possible solutions to make things balance as to exp/difficulty and what you would do to make it the difficulty 'challenging'.

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 12:19pm by wdrekx
#66 Dec 14 2012 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:


It was super fun looking for the guy playing the tank. It was really boring for his wife, the healer. She just kept clicking squares to cure people.



To the untrained eye it might be. I'm a healer in WoW, so I can speak to this "healing by clicking squares" thing. Those squares were either the in game raid frames, or an add on raid frame. It's just an easier way to keep everything in a neat and orderly place in front of the healer. Most of those add ons can be configured to the healer's preference. I make heavy use of ctrl, shift, and alt modifiers to map my different spells with different mouse buttons. It *is* a masochistic game of whack-a-mole in many respects, but there *are* split second decisions that need to be made.

Spells are a little different than they are in FFXI and games like it. When you cast a spell in XI, you cast a spell. Then you look at how much it healed, and you cast another. In WoW. you look at the person's health, judge whether or not you can cast a minor spell in hopes of proc'ing a passive talent that will modify a different spell, or if you have to just bite the bullet and cast a heavy-artillery-but-long-casting-time spell to bring the person back up. Often, damage is so spiky and constant in WoW that these decisions are made in split seconds, over and over again. Nearly every spell will proc a passive talent, so healing a tank up to full can look like

Holy Shock -> Infusion of Light Proc -> Divine Light reduced cast time -> Holy Shock -> Holy Shock -> Eternal Flame -> Divine Purpose procs free heal ->Eternal flame on someone else -> Another lucky Divine Purpose proc -> Eternal Flame on a third party member -> Holy radiance to top off group -> Daybreak procs -> Holy Shock gets AoE effect and everyone is happily healed up.

In XI, you did Cure IV, Cure V, Curaga III.


So while what you *saw* was her just clicking boxes, I'm sure there was a lot more going on behind the scenes if she was at all an efficient healer.
#67 Dec 14 2012 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The main issue here is that you guys are arguing about a game that's 10 years old and said game has game mechanics and content that have changed DRASTICALLY over the course of that decade. Think about it- the context of the discussion a few posts ago was about xping off of VT chains vs. IT+++'s which, in and of itself, required completely different levels of skill and/or attention span from said tank. Not only that, but as Wint pointed out, it no longer even happens anyway. You guys are arguing about apples and oranges...


Maybe, but I'm just shooting the ****, not trying to raise a federal case.

We're not really talking about FFXI so much as using it as a common vehicle through which we can gain a better understanding of game design principles. We're definitely having a bit of apples to oranges discussion, but I've been aware of that from the start. It's showing how the apples become oranges and vice versa that's interesting to talk about.

Because seriously, that **** is weird.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#68 Dec 14 2012 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
catwho wrote:
It was super fun looking for the guy playing the tank. It was really boring for his wife, the healer. She just kept clicking squares to cure people.
So while what you *saw* was her just clicking boxes, I'm sure there was a lot more going on behind the scenes if she was at all an efficient healer.


Oh I'm sure she was quite good and efficient at what she was doing. At one point she threatened to stop curing this one guy who wouldn't stop standing in the fire. ("Stop standing in the fire... WHY ARE YOU STILL STANDING IN THE FIRE?!") Smiley: lol

Still, my chief complaint about WHM in XI was that I never got to see the action because I was staring at health bars all the time. At least her squares were in the center of the screen, as opposed to the corner, so she could kind of sort of see the action.
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#69 Dec 14 2012 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Torrence wrote:
catwho wrote:
It was super fun looking for the guy playing the tank. It was really boring for his wife, the healer. She just kept clicking squares to cure people.
So while what you *saw* was her just clicking boxes, I'm sure there was a lot more going on behind the scenes if she was at all an efficient healer.


Oh I'm sure she was quite good and efficient at what she was doing. At one point she threatened to stop curing this one guy who wouldn't stop standing in the fire. ("Stop standing in the fire... WHY ARE YOU STILL STANDING IN THE FIRE?!") Smiley: lol


I am a very, very, very.... very important DPS. I suggest you save one of your own cooldowns as I'll be needing mine to amplify my luxurious DPS. I cannot be bothered to stand in one of your cute circles.

Perhaps you should reforge for moar haste.

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 6:04pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#70 Dec 14 2012 at 4:36 PM Rating: Default
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I heard her circles aren't even that cute.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#71 Dec 14 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I heard her circles aren't even that cute.


They don't even bring all the boys to the yard.
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#72 Dec 15 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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Based on the direction I've seen XIV take and what I've read about ARR, it seems that the focus of 2.0 will be on group based content. Whether that's through exping, raids, missions, or FATEs. The aspects that can really be done 'solo' are mainly leveling type activities, such as grinding on leves, crafting, gathering, questing, etc. Then there are fluffy diversions like bird raising and decorating your house.

Systems such as the content finder are meant to make this type of group play much more easily accessible. And to be honest, that's my preference-- over trying to solo hard mobs for hours for a coffer key drop, to try and sneak around and find a chest on my own. For me the point of an MMO is to be social and play with others first and foremost. Some more challenging solo content is nice sometimes but I'd rather the time be put into designing great group play. Much of the entertainment people found in XI was player base created (challenges people set for themselves, like exp/hour, not things that were necessarily intended design-wise). I'm sure ARR will have it's fair share of those player created goals/challenges (so long as it's popular enough and the gameplay is fun/the fundamentals are good, which I can say *wink wink* it is).

I wouldn't worry about challenge. XIV 1.0 had some really challenging fights and even raids; there's no reason that won't continue.
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#73 Dec 16 2012 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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Much of the entertainment people found in XI was player base created (challenges people set for themselves, like exp/hour, not things that were necessarily intended design-wise).


I have to say that, as a designer, if player goals like XP/hour and specific loot are not factored into your design decisions, then you are a bad designer ;/ The whole point of having designers is that they create opportunities for fun, not to create a series of accidents which players work around to have fun. This was where players had fun in XI in spite of the design because other elements were designed well, if even by accident. Though if you consider that a source of optimism for the game, then I'd say I guess that's fair.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#74 Dec 17 2012 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's pretty easy to look back at an old game that you mastered, and say "yeah that game is easy". Do you know why it seems easy now? Because you became skilled at it.

I remember not knowing how to shadow tank.
I remember unlocking ninja and learning how to play it.
I remember noticing myself becoming better at it.
I remember noticing other people who were really good at it, or really bad at it, and why. I hadn't known why before.
I remember getting to a point where i felt like I was good at the job.
I remember Abyssea coming along, and realizing that none of the above mattered very much anymore.

That's...pretty much the path most people take to becoming skilled at anything, minus the bit about Abyssea. How long or short that path is doesn't really come into it. Unless we're getting into comparisons, but i didn't think that was what we were doing.

I think most of this thread has been based around widely differing opinions on the definition of the word "skill", making pretty much the whole thing about semantics, aka nothing all that important. So i suppose it was kind of silly of me to add more fuel to the fire with another post.
/trollface



Edited, Dec 17th 2012 2:57am by Llester

Edited, Dec 17th 2012 2:59am by Llester
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#75 Dec 17 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
I think it's pretty easy to look back at an old game that you mastered, and say "yeah that game is easy". Do you know why it seems easy now? Because you became skilled at it.

Edited, Dec 17th 2012 2:59am by Llester


Any question about skill can be answered by "do you remember people being BAD at the game?"

Yes.. oh god yes. Full AF drgs, 1 song bards, that whm would take hate and the nrun away from the party and die in a pile of goblins, that rdm who kept dying from poorly timed converts, The Nin tanks who gave Ninjas a bad name, the epeening sams who ws'd with reckless abandon just to see if they could rip hate, and EVERY Puppetmaster in the game who refused to buy attachments and made Pup seem so LOL when it wasn't.

You can't deny these people exist, so there must be SOME skill needed, right?
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#76 Dec 17 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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If by skill you mean "effort" or "basic common sense" then sure. Smiley: laugh

Actually, even the best RDMs have at least one accidental convert death memory, especially those who had their convert gear set down to within 1-10 HP (quite possible on a Tarutaru) and forgot to build a Stoneskin cast into the macro, or weren't quite out of AOE range like they thought they were. I can recall doing it twice, usually with a DoT like poison on.
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#77 Dec 17 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
If by skill you mean "effort" or "basic common sense" then sure. Smiley: laugh

Actually, even the best RDMs have at least one accidental convert death memory, especially those who had their convert gear set down to within 1-10 HP (quite possible on a Tarutaru) and forgot to build a Stoneskin cast into the macro, or weren't quite out of AOE range like they thought they were. I can recall doing it twice, usually with a DoT like poison on.


Is there really a difference?

It's not an action game. It doesn't require twitchy fingers or reflexes. Just memory and an attention span, which are commodities, IMO.
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#78 Dec 17 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

Is there really a difference?

It's not an action game. It doesn't require twitchy fingers or reflexes. Just memory and an attention span, which are commodities, IMO.


Which is really the major difference between XI and just about everything else out there. So that's why I get into these long-winded explanations every time someone posts a comment about WoW being some sort of complete faceroll and XI being this godly game that took massive amounts of concentration and skill. ****, I can still tell you exactly how to play all 10 of the jobs I had at level cap when I left. There wasn't much to remember or master.

Now that's not to say I'm bashing XI. I loved the game. It was my first mmo, and will ALWAYS be the one I remember with the fondest memories. But, XIV was crap. There was not one thing I liked about it, at all. Yoshi-P was right when he said that the team really should have played other mmos for a year and really thought about what made them popular. Leveling content should be soloable, or at the very least, something like book parties (XI)\Instant Adventure (rift) that you can join up for a little group XP, and leave when you have to go. End game should be tiered, with different levels of difficulty\size to suit different playstyles and different groups (hard core versus casual). They shouldn't overlook PvP (but they should separate it and give it a FF feel, I never did understand why they missed the opportunity to give us some beastmen races to play as). They shouldn't over-complicate things when a simple explanation with an elegant path to the answer will suffice. The interface should be accessible to PC players on the PC, and console players if they are still bringing this to the console. Add on development should not just be allowed, it should be encouraged. It enhances the experience of the player.

The game can truly be the next generation of exciting content, because one thing that Square has is decades of story to draw upon. It's something that other development studios could only wish for, to have the lore of this IP. There's only a handful that are in league with SE in this regard. They just need to get their heads on straight and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It would also help if the playerbase could be a little more open to new ideas without going NOO! It's in WoW!!! No! /stamp foot

I can't wait for 2.0. If anyone can fix this game, it's Yoshi-P.

#79 Dec 17 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

Is there really a difference?

It's not an action game. It doesn't require twitchy fingers or reflexes. Just memory and an attention span, which are commodities, IMO.


Which is really the major difference between XI and just about everything else out there. So that's why I get into these long-winded explanations every time someone posts a comment about WoW being some sort of complete faceroll and XI being this godly game that took massive amounts of concentration and skill. ****, I can still tell you exactly how to play all 10 of the jobs I had at level cap when I left. There wasn't much to remember or master.


Could you elaborate a bit for me? My MMO history is Phatasy Star Online (Dreamcast), FFXI (forever), sprinkled with a tiny bit of WoW (like level 40), then FFXIV, after 2 months of that, Rift/SWTOR/ANYTHING to fill the void.

So, when someone says FFXI is easy, others are challenging, I don;t know what makes these other games a challenge because apparently this challenge is found at endgame, because I found leveling in all of them very easy. It was fun to level in them, but it always felt like I was playing a single player game that I paid monthly for, where FFXI always felt like an MMO.

Quote:

Now that's not to say I'm bashing XI. I loved the game. It was my first mmo, and will ALWAYS be the one I remember with the fondest memories. But, XIV was crap. There was not one thing I liked about it, at all. Yoshi-P was right when he said that the team really should have played other mmos for a year and really thought about what made them popular. Leveling content should be soloable, or at the very least, something like book parties (XI)\Instant Adventure (rift) that you can join up for a little group XP, and leave when you have to go. End game should be tiered, with different levels of difficulty\size to suit different playstyles and different groups (hard core versus casual). They shouldn't overlook PvP (but they should separate it and give it a FF feel, I never did understand why they missed the opportunity to give us some beastmen races to play as). They shouldn't over-complicate things when a simple explanation with an elegant path to the answer will suffice. The interface should be accessible to PC players on the PC, and console players if they are still bringing this to the console. Add on development should not just be allowed, it should be encouraged. It enhances the experience of the player.


The last part makes me feel conflicted. I love parsers, but WoW had ridiculous things like questfinders and all sorts of add-ons that were almost required because everyone else had them, right?

It wouldn't be fair to the PS3 players to have all of these things on PC only, but I would like a community add-on situation where SE approves them and releases them to players.

Quote:

The game can truly be the next generation of exciting content, because one thing that Square has is decades of story to draw upon. It's something that other development studios could only wish for, to have the lore of this IP. There's only a handful that are in league with SE in this regard. They just need to get their heads on straight and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It would also help if the playerbase could be a little more open to new ideas without going NOO! It's in WoW!!! No! /stamp foot


Only the die-hard on the official message boards are anti-wow, and it's really a very vocal minority, it seems. I did eventually grow to love FFXIV when I returned during the paid phase, but there were so many areas for improvement (of which Yoshi-P stated would happen in 2.0).

Quote:

I can't wait for 2.0. If anyone can fix this game, it's Yoshi-P.


If comments from the Alpha letters are any indication, he has.
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#80 Dec 18 2012 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
So, when someone says FFXI is easy, others are challenging, I don;t know what makes these other games a challenge because apparently this challenge is found at endgame, because I found leveling in all of them very easy. It was fun to level in them, but it always felt like I was playing a single player game that I paid monthly for, where FFXI always felt like an MMO.


I think we'd all agree that leveling is easy. Perhaps finding a group in XI was hard before abyssea, but even then it was just a matter of time until level sync remedied the problem(for the most part). I can't be certain, but since he mentioned the jobs he had at cap I'd assume he was talking about endgame.

XI endgame content revolved around the same few strategies and none of them were particularly difficult to understand or execute. It was either a standard fight, a standard fight with a positional requirement(breath attacks, spike flail, ect.), standard fight with tank swapping or aggro swap, kiting the mob or it's adds(or both) and that was pretty much it. There was a sprinkling of mobs that had odd behavior or used unique stances that needed players to react quickly, but not many.

I never kept track, but I'd wager that there were only two conditions that ever led to a group I was in failing to down a HNM encounter. The first and most common was a BLM slacking and missing their turn in the stun order. The second was someone not turning away or disengaging when a mob needed to be slept. I guess there was a third, but accidentally calling for help didn't really lead to a wipe.

Now that I think about it, probably the hardest thing to do in HNM encounters was to recover from a CFH without giving up claim. It required more communication and management than any other aspect of XI HNM encounters that I can recall.

Louiscool wrote:
The last part makes me feel conflicted. I love parsers, but WoW had ridiculous things like questfinders and all sorts of add-ons that were almost required because everyone else had them, right?

Maybe there were some elitist guilds that required you to have certain things for your raids, but most guilds didn't require it. The only add-on I would consider even close to being required is ventrillo/skype/mumble, but those are all for communication and not actually part of the game. Almost any other add-on was just a QoL thing where you used it because it made quick work of tedious tasks like sorting your inventory or selling trash to a vendor.

I will admit that I did use Recount which does parse damage, but I rarely ever used that function of the add-on. It was less of a 'you must be this tall to ride' measuring stick and more of a tool to track performance for other things. I really only ever used it to make sure people were covering the buffs/debuffs/dispells/interrupts they were tasked with taking care of.


Edited, Dec 18th 2012 6:26am by FilthMcNasty
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#81 Dec 18 2012 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
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We had the same **** RNG call for help three times on the SAME Jailor of Love. The first time was annoying. The second time it was funny. The third time,we told her to rip off her H key.
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#82 Dec 18 2012 at 7:23 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
So, when someone says FFXI is easy, others are challenging, I don;t know what makes these other games a challenge because apparently this challenge is found at endgame, because I found leveling in all of them very easy. It was fun to level in them, but it always felt like I was playing a single player game that I paid monthly for, where FFXI always felt like an MMO.


I think we'd all agree that leveling is easy. Perhaps finding a group in XI was hard before abyssea, but even then it was just a matter of time until level sync remedied the problem(for the most part). I can't be certain, but since he mentioned the jobs he had at cap I'd assume he was talking about endgame.

XI endgame content revolved around the same few strategies and none of them were particularly difficult to understand or execute. It was either a standard fight, a standard fight with a positional requirement(breath attacks, spike flail, ect.), standard fight with tank swapping or aggro swap, kiting the mob or it's adds(or both) and that was pretty much it. There was a sprinkling of mobs that had odd behavior or used unique stances that needed players to react quickly, but not many.

I never kept track, but I'd wager that there were only two conditions that ever led to a group I was in failing to down a HNM encounter. The first and most common was a BLM slacking and missing their turn in the stun order. The second was someone not turning away or disengaging when a mob needed to be slept. I guess there was a third, but accidentally calling for help didn't really lead to a wipe.

Now that I think about it, probably the hardest thing to do in HNM encounters was to recover from a CFH without giving up claim. It required more communication and management than any other aspect of XI HNM encounters that I can recall.

Louiscool wrote:
The last part makes me feel conflicted. I love parsers, but WoW had ridiculous things like questfinders and all sorts of add-ons that were almost required because everyone else had them, right?

Maybe there were some elitist guilds that required you to have certain things for your raids, but most guilds didn't require it. The only add-on I would consider even close to being required is ventrillo/skype/mumble, but those are all for communication and not actually part of the game. Almost any other add-on was just a QoL thing where you used it because it made quick work of tedious tasks like sorting your inventory or selling trash to a vendor.

I will admit that I did use Recount which does parse damage, but I rarely ever used that function of the add-on. It was less of a 'you must be this tall to ride' measuring stick and more of a tool to track performance for other things. I really only ever used it to make sure people were covering the buffs/debuffs/dispells/interrupts they were tasked with taking care of.


Edited, Dec 18th 2012 6:26am by FilthMcNasty



sure the strategies werent particularly difficult.. which is fine.. they dont have to be hard strategies just strategies in general. for example 95% of the stuff in FFXI was "easy" (strategy wise) as long as at least ONE person knew what they were doing and everyone else did as that person told them. not hard at all. but it required instruction and execution.. it wasnt like fighting an exp mob where one person tanks everyone else runs up and hits it and healers heal as necessary until it falls down.. like fighting an exp mod.. which involves no strategy and is how i think fighting will be in FFXIV with its current "casual" approach.. hopefully im wrong
#83 Dec 18 2012 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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A lot of FFXI fights, pretty much every action-RPG games out there, lacked strategic depth in their AI. Their AI strategies are just responses to players' actions, like in a game of simple chess. It's really simple: if you do this move then I will counter with this move but this simple thing is exceeding complex as you try to read ahead. However, a chess game AI has a much deeper responses to FFXI. In fact FFXI's AI is so basic that they merely react to player's actions rather than having a series of moves for a certain purpose. So a 'smart' mob would easily be countered once the player figure out its pattern and how to respond to it. Most FFXI new fights started out hard but once people figure out their patterns then they become just another fight.

The developers counter this problem with certain setups like special moves, adjust speed/response time or mobs positions that forces the player to react. Like a mob would run away to lure the player forward or causes massive damage to players. They then add certain random element to it and create an environmental problem that players try to fight rather than an actual opponent. This is easily seen that most 'difficult' situations people get are either caused by players' mistakes, certain special moves/property of the monsters, the environment that the player has to fight in (like linking/aggro or crippling situations like restrictions) or just bad luck.

This problem is due to the fact that the players are too well connected to each other so every kind of plan the developers try to put in a monster is easily countered in a couple days. 1 person will take a couple weeks or months to come up with a strategy for a certain AI moves or secrets but 1000 people will take a lot less. Once it's figured out, the AI can not develop new counter moves without the developers trying to create real AI instead of the normal game AI.
#84 Dec 18 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Default
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Yep, which is why designers really need to break in some ways from the traditional JRPG foundation. When you have several people rather than one person to figure out a workable strategy, the linear style of combat just isn't suited to providing a strategic challenge. The bottom line is that the more it becomes a question of your damage and HP versus their damage and HP, the less a game of strategy it can be. In chess, for example, every piece effectively has 1 HP and deals 1 damage. Once you start tinkering with that rule, you have to work very hard to maintain balance across sides if you want to preserve strategic challenge. If I have a queen with 5 HP, I can easily destroy someone better than me.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#85 Dec 18 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Default
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Also, holy ****, I should have started using analogies like that long ago. Much more accessible than my abstract lectures.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 Dec 18 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The last part makes me feel conflicted. I love parsers, but WoW had ridiculous things like questfinders and all sorts of add-ons that were almost required because everyone else had them, right?

It wouldn't be fair to the PS3 players to have all of these things on PC only, but I would like a community add-on situation where SE approves them and releases them to players.



Nothing was required. If you wanted to join a guild that had requirements, then you had to meet those requirements but that's not a fault of the game. I don't know of any add on that was required just because other people were using them, especially questhelpers. A better example might have been the old paladin buff tracker back when we had 999999 buffs to put up (and you happened to be a paladin or a raid lead), but even that could be overcome with a litttle basic communication for those who weren't complete derps. Add ons improve the interface and the QoL for the player. I see them as more of a window into how I prefer my gaming experience. Rather than trying to get used to an interface designed for someone who is right-handed, left brained, whatever the case is, I configure the interface in a way that works for me. When it's our choice instead of what a developer thinks is the appropriate experience, there is an opportunity for everyone across the board to find a perfect fit to enjoy the game.

As far as Ps3 users... No tt wouldn't be fair, but it would happen anyway. FFXI proves that. It has things that Ps2 and xbox players can't use, all without SE's approval or even input. Imagine the great things that could come to the game's interface with SE's help, i.e., an actual API toolkit like other games have. It's going to happen whether you want it to or not, like it did with XI. And people who want to use it, will. People who don't, won't.
#87 Dec 18 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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When I say required, I mean to keep up with other players. It becomes an arms race for add-ons. Wasn't there a curebot add-on called HPWatch or HealBot or something? Add-ons can quickly escalate past "a nice bonus" to "this thing breaks the game."

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 2:56pm by Louiscool
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#88 Dec 18 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
The last part makes me feel conflicted. I love parsers, but WoW had ridiculous things like questfinders and all sorts of add-ons that were almost required because everyone else had them, right?

It wouldn't be fair to the PS3 players to have all of these things on PC only, but I would like a community add-on situation where SE approves them and releases them to players.



Nothing was required. If you wanted to join a guild that had requirements, then you had to meet those requirements but that's not a fault of the game. I don't know of any add on that was required just because other people were using them, especially questhelpers. A better example might have been the old paladin buff tracker back when we had 999999 buffs to put up (and you happened to be a paladin or a raid lead), but even that could be overcome with a litttle basic communication for those who weren't complete derps. Add ons improve the interface and the QoL for the player. I see them as more of a window into how I prefer my gaming experience. Rather than trying to get used to an interface designed for someone who is right-handed, left brained, whatever the case is, I configure the interface in a way that works for me. When it's our choice instead of what a developer thinks is the appropriate experience, there is an opportunity for everyone across the board to find a perfect fit to enjoy the game.

As far as Ps3 users... No tt wouldn't be fair, but it would happen anyway. FFXI proves that. It has things that Ps2 and xbox players can't use, all without SE's approval or even input. Imagine the great things that could come to the game's interface with SE's help, i.e., an actual API toolkit like other games have. It's going to happen whether you want it to or not, like it did with XI. And people who want to use it, will. People who don't, won't.


None of the unofficial Windower add-ons make or break the game, though. The latest update to FFXI on Dec 12th caused a lot of the plugins to stop functioning entirely, and many of them still aren't fixed. It just meant that we had to eyeball a few things and mentally count down timers in our head instead of having a lazymode HUD tell us the precise amount. Frankly, I think that makes a person a better player, since they actually have to pay attention.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#89 Dec 18 2012 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd have to say that it rests somewhere between a simple QoL and "breaking the game" because many of the add-ons can drastically improve efficiency. For example, I played XI on a PS2 back when they "nerfed" RNG by making your distance from the mob scale your damage. I had to eyeball it on a PS2, whereas a RNG with the same skill and gear on a PC could use a rangefinder tool for his windower and eliminate that source of inefficiency. Did that "break the game"? No, certainly not. But when your job is to do as much damage as possible, and maximizing your damage is based on maintaining a specific range, a rangefinder add on was definitely more than a simple QoL tool. Maybe it only meant a few dmg per ranged attack, but when you stretch that out over a longer battle and you factor in lost damage on weapon skills, you can see why it becomes a noticeable disadvantage for a console player.

It becomes a slippery slope when factors are introduced into battles with the intent of requiring a certain level of skill or attention span or reflexes or w/e and people on PC's use software to override those factors and remove them from the equation. The advantage is unintended and undeniable. (Well, let me clarify... it's unintended by the game designers... oftentimes it IS intended by the person using the 3rd party program).

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 3:52pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#90 Dec 18 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a bard, and I too had to accurately judge distances before Windower and Distance made it easy. 95% of the time I was right where I needed to be to land ballad on both the paladin and the mages but not the other melee. It was made more difficult by the fact that I was expected to pull too, so I was constantly mobile, and players were shuffling around. (Gosh, I still have to tell people to stand where they need to stand. In Dyna Xarc last night I finally said "the SMN is ballad central. If you want MP, stand next to her. If you don't want MP, then don't stand next to her.") Kind of sad I had to spell it out to a lot of experienced level 99s!

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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#91 Dec 18 2012 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
When I say required, I mean to keep up with other players. It becomes an arms race for add-ons. Wasn't there a curebot add-on called HPWatch or HealBot or something? Add-ons can quickly escalate past "a nice bonus" to "this thing breaks the game."


Healbot is nothing more than a set of raid frames that you map your mouse buttons to. At one point it automated casting spells and that functionality was promptly broken because that was never the intended use of add ons, nor is it even remotely what I suggested in my post. When I think og add ons, I think of Bartender and Bagnon - move my UI how I want it and keep my bag orderly. I'm certainly not looking for anything to play the game for me.

catwho wrote:

None of the unofficial Windower add-ons make or break the game, though. The latest update to FFXI on Dec 12th caused a lot of the plugins to stop functioning entirely, and many of them still aren't fixed. It just meant that we had to eyeball a few things and mentally count down timers in our head instead of having a lazymode HUD tell us the precise amount. Frankly, I think that makes a person a better player, since they actually have to pay attention.


None of the WoW ones do, either (and if they do, they are intentionally broken). Also, updates frequently break add ons and that's why its up to the players to keep them updated. Interest in XI has stagnated and that's why those add ons aren't working again, not because SE intentionally broke them.

And your opinion of a better player and mine differ. I don't consider someone who can count down a couple different debuffs in their head necessarily better than the person who is using an add on to keep them aware of how much time is left so their attention can be focused on the battle at hand or other things. Keeping track of things in XI is easy because fighting is slow. Try keeping track of your rolling debuffs, buffs, procs and etc in a game like WoW or Rift or any game that doesn't have a job that does nothing but cast two songs, count to 15, and cast two more.

ChaChaJaJa wrote:

It becomes a slippery slope when factors are introduced into battles with the intent of requiring a certain level of skill or attention span or reflexes or w/e and people on PC's use software to override those factors and remove them from the equation. The advantage is unintended and undeniable. (Well, let me clarify... it's unintended by the game designers... oftentimes it IS intended by the person using the 3rd party program).


And this is why SE is thus far the only game developer who wants to even bring an mmo to a console. It's just too much hassle, and it's far too constricting. Personally, I think it's a bad idea and they should just stick to the pc. The same argument is brought up every time folks compare FPS experience on a pc and a console. The PC blows the console players away every single time, but that's not the game's fault for being more accessible on one medium verses the other. Nor would it be an add on's fault because I can get to my Shift+right click faster than someone can scroll through a menu to get a macro.
#92 Dec 18 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Are people still throwing the "Add-ons" Break the game argument ? LOL! Not one time has an add-on broken a game, not heal bot, not dpsmeter, not aggro meters, or quest finders.... Please mention me one add on that gives stats if you use it :)
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#93 Dec 18 2012 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Are people still throwing the "Add-ons" Break the game argument ? LOL! Not one time has an add-on broken a game, not heal bot, not dpsmeter, not aggro meters, or quest finders.... Please mention me one add on that gives stats if you use it :)


Easy, Decursive.

The first iteration of Decursive in pre-expansion WoW "broke" the game, specifically negating certain encounter mechanics of specific classes, such as the MC Lucifron fight. The hooks provided to add-on makers were too intrusive and allowed abilities to be used outside of the intended design. This isn't speculation or assumptions, those are literally Blizzard's words and why the UI hooks were reworked and the add-on stopped working for a long time.

Granted this was a long time ago and the WoW add-on library has evolved significantly since then, and there's zero information to believe FFXIV's third-party situation will allow anything of this sort, but let's not pretend such things haven't happend.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 6:01pm by Whales
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#94 Dec 18 2012 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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And this is why SE is thus far the only game developer who wants to even bring an mmo to a console. It's just too much hassle, and it's far too constricting. Personally, I think it's a bad idea and they should just stick to the pc. The same argument is brought up every time folks compare FPS experience on a pc and a console. The PC blows the console players away every single time, but that's not the game's fault for being more accessible on one medium verses the other. Nor would it be an add on's fault because I can get to my Shift+right click faster than someone can scroll through a menu to get a macro.


Phantasy Star Series
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These MMOs did quite well on consoles. Just because it's harder is not a reason to ignore the larger market of gamers. As far as MMOs go, many people prefer to use controllers even on PC, and sit on their couch instead of a computer chair. I shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because I want to use my TV.

I'm very much a fan of getting a game as-is and not having to install a set of mods or add-ons just to play at the same level as others, or be disadvantaged because I use a console in a multi-platform game.
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#95 Dec 18 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Whales wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Are people still throwing the "Add-ons" Break the game argument ? LOL! Not one time has an add-on broken a game, not heal bot, not dpsmeter, not aggro meters, or quest finders.... Please mention me one add on that gives stats if you use it :)


Easy, Decursive.

The first iteration of Decursive in pre-expansion WoW "broke" the game, specifically negating certain encounter mechanics of specific classes, such as the MC Lucifron fight. The hooks provided to add-on makers were too intrusive and allowed abilities to be used outside of the intended design. This isn't speculation or assumptions, those are literally Blizzard's words and why the UI hooks were reworked and the add-on stopped working for a long time.

Granted this was a long time ago and the WoW add-on library has evolved significantly since then, and there's zero information to believe FFXIV's third-party situation will allow anything of this sort, but let's not pretend such things haven't happend.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 6:01pm by Whales


That happened 7-8 years ago..... when add on's where not as mainstream as they are today, now designers develop content with add on's on mind etc etc.... Sure is an example, but is it valid today ? Nope!
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#96 Dec 18 2012 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
And this is why SE is thus far the only game developer who wants to even bring an mmo to a console. It's just too much hassle, and it's far too constricting. Personally, I think it's a bad idea and they should just stick to the pc. The same argument is brought up every time folks compare FPS experience on a pc and a console. The PC blows the console players away every single time, but that's not the game's fault for being more accessible on one medium verses the other. Nor would it be an add on's fault because I can get to my Shift+right click faster than someone can scroll through a menu to get a macro.


Phantasy Star Series
DC Universe

These MMOs did quite well on consoles. Just because it's harder is not a reason to ignore the larger market of gamers. As far as MMOs go, many people prefer to use controllers even on PC, and sit on their couch instead of a computer chair. I shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because I want to use my TV.

I'm very much a fan of getting a game as-is and not having to install a set of mods or add-ons just to play at the same level as others, or be disadvantaged because I use a console in a multi-platform game.


DC is F2P.... PS was good way back in the day, that is not the case nowdays..... you did not mention EQOA....
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#97 Dec 18 2012 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
When I say required, I mean to keep up with other players. It becomes an arms race for add-ons. Wasn't there a curebot add-on called HPWatch or HealBot or something? Add-ons can quickly escalate past "a nice bonus" to "this thing breaks the game."


They still weren't required. Now, if you tally up the total amount of times you heal people over the course of a raid it'll add up, but it wasn't game breaking to use an add on that saved you a single step. The difference between clicking on a member of your party and pressing a macro and not having to press the macro after selecting the group member is hardly game breaking.

The way WoW and other games are made allow repeated casting without destroying your mana pool. XI on the other hand won't allow you to 'cure bomb' for nearly as long. This difference is the reason why people would even want to use add-ons in other games; they just facilitate the process a little.

catwho wrote:
None of the unofficial Windower add-ons make or break the game, though. The latest update to FFXI on Dec 12th caused a lot of the plugins to stop functioning entirely, and many of them still aren't fixed. It just meant that we had to eyeball a few things and mentally count down timers in our head instead of having a lazymode HUD tell us the precise amount. Frankly, I think that makes a person a better player, since they actually have to pay attention.


Is it game-breaking that Windower in XI allowed you to see your group's TP? I mean, it basically removed the need to have a macro taking up space that alerted your partner that you were ready to SC. It functioned the same way that WoW add-ons did in allowing you to save steps. Would it have been game breaking to have a function in Windower that sold off all the crab shells you collected during your exp group to a vendor automatically instead of you having to go through your inventory to select and sell each one individually?

Add-ons in WoW break after updates just like they do for Windower in XI. The last update in XI caused recast to force people out of POL viewer. It was fixed within a day. Most of the add-ons in WoW that cause issues in the game are updated within a day as well.



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#98 Dec 19 2012 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
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4,955 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
And this is why SE is thus far the only game developer who wants to even bring an mmo to a console. It's just too much hassle, and it's far too constricting. Personally, I think it's a bad idea and they should just stick to the pc. The same argument is brought up every time folks compare FPS experience on a pc and a console. The PC blows the console players away every single time, but that's not the game's fault for being more accessible on one medium verses the other. Nor would it be an add on's fault because I can get to my Shift+right click faster than someone can scroll through a menu to get a macro.


Phantasy Star Series
DC Universe

These MMOs did quite well on consoles. Just because it's harder is not a reason to ignore the larger market of gamers. As far as MMOs go, many people prefer to use controllers even on PC, and sit on their couch instead of a computer chair. I shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because I want to use my TV.

I'm very much a fan of getting a game as-is and not having to install a set of mods or add-ons just to play at the same level as others, or be disadvantaged because I use a console in a multi-platform game.



umm you know phantasy star SERIES was a single player game(s) before the online ones right? so phantasy star online wasnt the first phantasy star game thus you cant label the "phantasy star series" as online.

But anyway the phantasy star online games are online RPGS not MMORPGS... you dont interact with hundreds of players at once... you just wait in a lobby form a small group and do a quest... PSO isnt an MMO (do some research) :p
#99 Dec 19 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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2,010 posts
Louiscool wrote:
sit on their couch instead of a computer chair. I shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because I want to use my TV.

I'm very much a fan of getting a game as-is and not having to install a set of mods or add-ons just to play at the same level as others, or be disadvantaged because I use a console in a multi-platform game.


I like to sit on my couch as well to play games, but let's not pretend that we are not purposely putting ourselves at that disatvantage by making that choice. PC players, who choose superior processing power, graphics, and control shouldn't be forced to come down to our level just because we prefer to use an inferior piece of hardware. The millions of people playing WoW and Rift and SWToR and Tera and Secret World aren't going to rush to FFXIV to dumb down their gaming experience. They'd mostly laugh at what is being suggested in this thread in regards to outlawing add ons and making the experience on PC identical to console.

If you want to play competitively with FPS players on PC, you get a pc. You don't stamp your foot and say "I like a controller so you have to be less efficient so I am not at a disadvantage". When armies started upgrading from swords and shields to projectile weapons and tactical warfare, generals didn't say "welp we prefer swords so we are just going to keep using those and see how that goes." They improved their soldiers' equipment, or they died. Morbid comparison maybe, but it's really the same idea. Evolve or die out... or at the very least accept that there are going to be people out there who have an easier time controlling the game than you.

This game needs to be competitive with modern mmorpgs, and that does mean making a better gaming experience for the target market. There has to be a compelling reason to switch to this game from others in order for them to succeed in a market this saturated, and dumbing down the UI so that we can give the illusion of a "level" playing field to a small percentage of console players is not the way to do it. In fact, who even cares? It's not like this is a PvP centric game anyway.



Edited, Dec 19th 2012 9:17am by Torrence
#100 Dec 19 2012 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
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12,363 posts
Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
sit on their couch instead of a computer chair. I shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because I want to use my TV.

I'm very much a fan of getting a game as-is and not having to install a set of mods or add-ons just to play at the same level as others, or be disadvantaged because I use a console in a multi-platform game.


I like to sit on my couch as well to play games, but let's not pretend that we are not purposely putting ourselves at that disatvantage by making that choice. PC players, who choose superior processing power, graphics, and control shouldn't be forced to come down to our level just because we prefer to use an inferior piece of hardware. The millions of people playing WoW and Rift and SWToR and Tera and Secret World aren't going to rush to FFXIV to dumb down their gaming experience. They'd mostly laugh at what is being suggested in this thread in regards to outlawing add ons and making the experience on PC identical to console.

If you want to play competitively with FPS players on PC, you get a pc. You don't stamp your foot and say "I like a controller so you have to be less efficient so I am not at a disadvantage". When armies started upgrading from swords and shields to projectile weapons and tactical warfare, generals didn't say "welp we prefer swords so we are just going to keep using those and see how that goes." They improved their soldiers' equipment, or they died. Morbid comparison maybe, but it's really the same idea. Evolve or die out... or at the very least accept that there are going to be people out there who have an easier time controlling the game than you.

This game needs to be competitive with modern mmorpgs, and that does mean making a better gaming experience for the target market. There has to be a compelling reason to switch to this game from others in order for them to succeed in a market this saturated, and dumbing down the UI so that we can give the illusion of a "level" playing field to a small percentage of console players is not the way to do it. In fact, who even cares? It's not like this is a PvP centric game anyway.



Edited, Dec 19th 2012 9:17am by Torrence


So much this.

My nephew actually said I was "cheating" by beating his *** over and over again in COD because I was using a mouse versus his PS3 controller Smiley: laugh
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#101 Dec 19 2012 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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4,144 posts
Torrence wrote:
When armies started upgrading from swords and shields to projectile weapons and tactical warfare, generals didn't say "welp we prefer swords so we are just going to keep using those and see how that goes." They improved their soldiers' equipment, or they died.


Wait, wut? We has fewer ships than we did in 1916? I'll take 2 trillion dollars worth of bayonets and horses please.




Edited, Dec 19th 2012 10:04am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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