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Alpha Video 6 - Gathering and CraftingFollow

#1 Dec 12 2012 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looking good!
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#2 Dec 12 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Look so juicy~!
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#3 Dec 12 2012 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: rolleyes
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#4 Dec 12 2012 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Definitely happy they got rid of the mini game when gathering. Still not a fan of the actual crafting but I'm probably spoiled by queuing up 100 recipes then AFKing to make a sandwich. Can't complain til I try though.
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#5 Dec 12 2012 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Click what you want to loot."
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#6 Dec 13 2012 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Hopefully this is just for Alpha. I actually like the mini-game of it. Nice break from the standard MMO click and get.
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#7 Dec 13 2012 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
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The problem with the mini-game version of gathering in the prior version was that, while at first you enjoyed the break from the norm, where you just did "Click on Node A with Gathering Tool B to get Material C", it became stale after a point. Fishing in particular, for whatever reason, had me practically tearing out the entirety of my widow's peak's worth of hair more than the other ones. Maybe it was because a gathering node in 1.0 was just extremely fickle, and unless you got the first strike to be on the mark or near it, you risked wasting too much time trying to salvage a proper target on the mini-game scale, only to find on the final hit that you damaged what you gathered beyond use.

Now it's easy to do like Kane did and just dumb this down to "Oh, so you want that thing? Sure, take it!", and I know they're just being snarky for fun's sake (I hope?), but there's more to it. Breaking it down, you effectively have so many chances to gather before a tree, an ore vein, or whatever runs out of chances. Do you want to go for that low-percentage but high-reward yield Adamantium Ore that only has maybe a 20% chance of success? Or do you want to play it safe and mine out some 90% possible Copper Ore instead, maybe just sell a bunch of it so you can buy the other materials you may want?

But that's just me ranting. All in all, I'm for giving a new method of gathering a try.
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#8 Dec 13 2012 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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As much as I like that they've tried to maintain the crafting minigame, I'm disappointed that it's still such a shallow game. It has all the depth of an old-school RPG where you only have one party member and they have only a few abilities... I've been saying they could transplant basic RPG mechanics to crafting quite easily for years, so I guess it's a case of being careful what you wish for. You've got your HP (Durability), the monster's HP (Progress), and an overkill mechanic (Quality). No stats, no status effects... less depth than a battle in FF1.

If you're going to do a game, make it a real game. You've got to come up with something at least a level up from Blackjack (another example of what this essentially is), otherwise it's just that much more of a chore. Crafting would be easy to turn into a legitimate game of strategy, or even just something that pretended to require a little strategy.

Having said that, it could be passable if the game market is good. It's at least a little more engaging than "Press Button, Get Bacon," so as long as there's a good incentive to do it, it could end up being very much like crafting in FFXI--boring, but meaningful. I'm also expecting that you at least get several more abilities that require actual decision-making as you level up.

Oh, I see. They saved the "Press Button, Get Bacon" formula for gathering -_-

Quote:
Now it's easy to do like Kane did and just dumb this down to "Oh, so you want that thing? Sure, take it!", and I know they're just being snarky for fun's sake (I hope?), but there's more to it. Breaking it down, you effectively have so many chances to gather before a tree, an ore vein, or whatever runs out of chances. Do you want to go for that low-percentage but high-reward yield Adamantium Ore that only has maybe a 20% chance of success? Or do you want to play it safe and mine out some 90% possible Copper Ore instead, maybe just sell a bunch of it so you can buy the other materials you may want?


Unfortunately, there's really NOT much more to it. Multiply the market rate of the item times the chance that you'll get any given item, and that's really about it. If, in your example, Adamantium goes for 1000gil and Copper goes for 100, then the average return for choosing Adamantium will be 200gil, and Copper will be 90 gil. I hardly call that a decision, let alone strategy. There will almost always be a "right" item to get, making the chance element essentially worthless. What was once a crappy game of luck with the most minimal splash of skill has been turned into ordering off a menu in a restaurant with a unreliable service. They've added arithmetic to gathering. Well done.

This is really the same deal as crafting to me. It doesn't HAVE to be a well-designed game. It's lazy but viable to make gathering nodes a slot machine. People find elements of chance engaging even without any required application of skill.

Sorry to be such a negative Nidhogg, really. As always I'm just trying to call attention to the things the average player off the street won't find especially fun.


Edited, Dec 13th 2012 12:42am by Kachi
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#9 Dec 13 2012 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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20%? Doesn't sound like SE, let's make it 0.01%!
#10 Dec 13 2012 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Well. Time to think positive.
We certainly don't have to worry now that the logging mini "game" overstresses the intellectual capacities of... the tree we are logging from.
#11 Dec 13 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Seraphaniim wrote:
Definitely happy they got rid of the mini game when gathering. Still not a fan of the actual crafting but I'm probably spoiled by queuing up 100 recipes then AFKing to make a sandwich. Can't complain til I try though.


I'm actually bummed. Previously it took knowledge and skill to mine up exactly what you wanted. This is going to mean that gathering will be less profitable, IMO.

I do like how much faster gathering is, and will wait until I can try it to judge.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 9:25am by Louiscool
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#12 Dec 13 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
... I'm just trying to call attention to the things the average player off the street won't find especially fun.


No offense, but it's more than a little arrogant to assume you know what everyone will and won't like. Just sayin'... I mean WoW carries ~10M subscribers and the major leveling mechanic in that game is to collect X batwing and Y wolf hides to get Z experience. Not exactly something that
Kachi wrote:
pretends to require a little strategy




Kachi wrote:
Sorry to be such a negative Nidhogg,


I can't describe to you how much I love this. I am ordering a T-Shirt that says this... Thank you for that!

Would you mind if I sigged it?

(I hope not because I'm about to do so now haha...)
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#13 Dec 13 2012 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:

Unfortunately, there's really NOT much more to it. Multiply the market rate of the item times the chance that you'll get any given item, and that's really about it. If, in your example, Adamantium goes for 1000gil and Copper goes for 100, then the average return for choosing Adamantium will be 200gil, and Copper will be 90 gil. I hardly call that a decision, let alone strategy. There will almost always be a "right" item to get, making the chance element essentially worthless. What was once a crappy game of luck with the most minimal splash of skill has been turned into ordering off a menu in a restaurant with a unreliable service. They've added arithmetic to gathering. Well done.

Sorry to be such a negative Nidhogg, really. As always I'm just trying to call attention to the things the average player off the street won't find especially fun.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 12:42am by Kachi


This gathering sure seems better than the previous one... the previous mini game was pretty boring, if you knew the specifics for what you were gathering it wasn't hard at all and didn't require skill unless timing a chop/mine click was considered an arduous task of immense skill.

To me that mini game was nothing more than something to make each gathering attempt a 20 second time waster, as to this making gathering shallow I haven't played any game really that made gathering really complex. Even back in UO which was all sorts of good memories, gathering was just point and click but nobody complained about it. Crafting and gathering as far as I remember has never been the 'fun' thing for majority 'off the street' players, most of them would rather farm mobs to gather mats to sell than 'gather' the mats from nodes unless the 'gather' is able to generate X times more currency than the mob farming.

Given none of this means that I don't want a better system but I haven't really found nor can I think of something much better that is both balanced, fun for more than the first few times (aka novelty wears off). At this point with the relaunch and trying to be a success I don't think SE really has to choice to experiment with all new mechanics for everything, they've probably chosen a few things here or there that are different but in general stick to proven mechanics whether from other mmos or from FFXI.



Edited, Dec 13th 2012 12:02pm by wdrekx
#14 Dec 13 2012 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
I'm actually bummed. Previously it took knowledge and skill to mine up exactly what you wanted. This is going to mean that gathering will be less profitable, IMO.

I do like how much faster gathering is, and will wait until I can try it to judge.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 9:25am by Louiscool



I thought 1.0s gathering system was neat at first but it because tedious pretty fast. Eventually I would just throw a movie on before starting out on my crafting/gathering leves and barely pay attention to what I was doing. I don't want to use the "it's just alpha" argument but I hope they can find a balance between interest, convenience, and a bit of innovation. I'm running out of movies to watch.
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#15 Dec 13 2012 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Kachi wrote:
... I'm just trying to call attention to the things the average player off the street won't find especially fun.


No offense, but it's more than a little arrogant to assume you know what everyone will and won't like. Just sayin'... I mean WoW carries ~10M subscribers and the major leveling mechanic in that game is to collect X batwing and Y wolf hides to get Z experience. Not exactly something that
Kachi wrote:
pretends to require a little strategy



I don't pretend to know what everyone will and won't like, just what the average player will like. WoW has a number of things going for it that cannot be copied by making a similar game. In particular, it has an early adopter's bonus (similar to how we still use the QWERTY keyboard even though it's an objectively inferior key layout, which is just one of millions of examples of inferior products succeeding because they were the first ones to become popular). At the time of its release, it boasted far friendlier gameplay for casual players. It has maintained player investment well and has nearly a decade's worth of content to welcome new players with. It has branded itself very well. Most of these are not innately design strengths; just the same business practices that make many products successful despite not having an especially fantastic product.

You might think my argument is a bit tautological, and that's fair, but a great many products are a tremendous financial success, and at the same time, objectively inferior to competitor products. Their success does not make them good products. Unfortunately, businesses are able to turn crap into gold quite regularly with a bit of marketing know-how and luck.

Look at how many games in recent years have copied and even improved upon the basic WoW design. How many have been able to maintain a subscription service model? Not one. In many ways, WoW's "success" is being compared apples to oranges. They are one of the only remaining games to maintain subscriptions at all. FFXI is included in that mix. Players these days are prepared to assume that games will go free to play. As a result WoW becomes the de facto winner of the subscriptions contest. Probably the only existing game that could even theoretically compete with it is FFXI, because it's already a subscription game with a competitive level of content.

And sig away. It's a free internet.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Dec 13 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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Also, just so we know where the line is, I don't mind being accused of having an arrogant thought, so long as I am not being accused of being an arrogant person in general. I am extremely critical of my own thoughts, so when I share them, they've usually been pretty thoroughly vetted. I am confident because I am very knowledgeable about the science of fun and have a good track record of being right when it comes to game design. I didn't just get off the turnip truck. I've spent many thousands of hours studying the subject, and while it is a complicated subject that can never be perfectly understood, it is by no means so unwieldy that it can never be grasped by mere mortals. If that makes me arrogant, then I think that takes a lot of the sting out of being accused of arrogance.

The psychology of enjoyment is actually relatively simple and very well-established by decades of research. Explaining why people enjoy things is pretty simple, as is recognizing experiences which won't be enjoyed. Applying the knowledge to actually design something good is the difficult part. Yes, even for me. But at least I don't roll over in the face of design elements that are clearly uninspired.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Dec 13 2012 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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I kind of like the idea of being able to get the thing I aim for with some percent of success. It's better than aiming for the thing I want and then having a random chance of getting it on top of the chance of failure on the attempt. Personally, I'd rather spend an hour doing 100 attempts and failing half of them to get 50 of the items I want to gather then spend an hour doing 40 attempts and get 15 items I didn't aim for, fail 10 of them and then get 15 items that I actually aimed for. Overall, it looks like a good change. The only bad part that I see, like another poster above, is that it will decrease the profitability of gathering. I guess all the money will go to those who can get the most +1 items.
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#18 Dec 13 2012 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Also, just so we know where the line is, I don't mind being accused of having an arrogant thought, so long as I am not being accused of being an arrogant person in general. I am extremely critical of my own thoughts, so when I share them, they've usually been pretty thoroughly vetted. I am confident because I am very knowledgeable about the science of fun and have a good track record of being right when it comes to game design. I didn't just get off the turnip truck. I've spent many thousands of hours studying the subject, and while it is a complicated subject that can never be perfectly understood, it is by no means so unwieldy that it can never be grasped by mere mortals. If that makes me arrogant, then I think that takes a lot of the sting out of being accused of arrogance.

The psychology of enjoyment is actually relatively simple and very well-established by decades of research. Explaining why people enjoy things is pretty simple, as is recognizing experiences which won't be enjoyed. Applying the knowledge to actually design something good is the difficult part. Yes, even for me. But at least I don't roll over in the face of design elements that are clearly uninspired.


When I said arrogant, I meant in your tone for posting, especially when you make these sweeping statements about how you know what average gamers want. I'm sure you're a very nice person Smiley: smile I just happen to think that assuming you can speak for broad categories of people is an arrogant assumption. You disagree. Feel free to continue voicing your opinions, I'll continue to silently disagree with most of them Smiley: tongue
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#19 Dec 13 2012 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry for the triple:

Quote:
Given none of this means that I don't want a better system but I haven't really found nor can I think of something much better that is both balanced, fun for more than the first few times (aka novelty wears off). At this point with the relaunch and trying to be a success I don't think SE really has to choice to experiment with all new mechanics for everything, they've probably chosen a few things here or there that are different but in general stick to proven mechanics whether from other mmos or from FFXI.


As I said, while it's nothing particularly innovative, the simple slot machine mechanic is fine for gathering. The element of chance is enough to make something minimally engaging even if it's not a genuinely enjoyable experience. For all the brainstorming that went into the "pick the item from a menu" feature, they should have just stuck with the FFXI method. This isn't a proven method at all.

But in fairness, I'm looking at this particular feature under a microscope. Gathering could still be made somewhat enjoyable via the hide and seek mechanics if they worked with that instead of the harvesting interface. I just see no design advantage to having players pick an item from a menu insofar as that particular element is concerned. Even the GW2 harvesting is better than that, and all you do is go up to the gathering node and press F, no special class required.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Dec 13 2012 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Sorry for the triple:

Quote:
Given none of this means that I don't want a better system but I haven't really found nor can I think of something much better that is both balanced, fun for more than the first few times (aka novelty wears off). At this point with the relaunch and trying to be a success I don't think SE really has to choice to experiment with all new mechanics for everything, they've probably chosen a few things here or there that are different but in general stick to proven mechanics whether from other mmos or from FFXI.


As I said, while it's nothing particularly innovative, the simple slot machine mechanic is fine for gathering. The element of chance is enough to make something minimally engaging even if it's not a genuinely enjoyable experience. For all the brainstorming that went into the "pick the item from a menu" feature, they should have just stuck with the FFXI method. This isn't a proven method at all.

But in fairness, I'm looking at this particular feature under a microscope. Gathering could still be made somewhat enjoyable via the hide and seek mechanics if they worked with that instead of the harvesting interface. I just see no design advantage to having players pick an item from a menu insofar as that particular element is concerned. Even the GW2 harvesting is better than that, and all you do is go up to the gathering node and press F, no special class required.



Since we're only seeing a very small subset of skills available to one of the DoL classes, I think it's safe to assume that we will see more for beta that would give rise to it deserving to be a class and not just a means of income. It appears to me that they are trying to take what before was just a side thought in most games and give it the full treatment into a fully fledged class that, once you've mastered it, you have definite advantages to those who are just starting out (hence making it more profitable by having skills needed to target higher value items).

I enjoy fishing, I'm looking forward to seeing how that has changed in 2.0.
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#21 Dec 13 2012 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Also, just so we know where the line is, I don't mind being accused of having an arrogant thought, so long as I am not being accused of being an arrogant person in general. I am extremely critical of my own thoughts, so when I share them, they've usually been pretty thoroughly vetted. I am confident because I am very knowledgeable about the science of fun and have a good track record of being right when it comes to game design. I didn't just get off the turnip truck. I've spent many thousands of hours studying the subject, and while it is a complicated subject that can never be perfectly understood, it is by no means so unwieldy that it can never be grasped by mere mortals. If that makes me arrogant, then I think that takes a lot of the sting out of being accused of arrogance.

The psychology of enjoyment is actually relatively simple and very well-established by decades of research. Explaining why people enjoy things is pretty simple, as is recognizing experiences which won't be enjoyed. Applying the knowledge to actually design something good is the difficult part. Yes, even for me. But at least I don't roll over in the face of design elements that are clearly uninspired.


When I said arrogant, I meant in your tone for posting, especially when you make these sweeping statements about how you know what average gamers want. I'm sure you're a very nice person Smiley: smile I just happen to think that assuming you can speak for broad categories of people is an arrogant assumption. You disagree. Feel free to continue voicing your opinions, I'll continue to silently disagree with most of them Smiley: tongue



Wint- if I was Santa- for Xmas you'd be getting a big ole' stocking full of THESE

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 12:44pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#22 Dec 13 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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swisa wrote:
I kind of like the idea of being able to get the thing I aim for with some percent of success. It's better than aiming for the thing I want and then having a random chance of getting it on top of the chance of failure on the attempt. Personally, I'd rather spend an hour doing 100 attempts and failing half of them to get 50 of the items I want to gather then spend an hour doing 40 attempts and get 15 items I didn't aim for, fail 10 of them and then get 15 items that I actually aimed for. Overall, it looks like a good change. The only bad part that I see, like another poster above, is that it will decrease the profitability of gathering. I guess all the money will go to those who can get the most +1 items.


The problem with this line of reasoning is that the items you want are unimportant. You're gathering to collect resources, which are ultimately transferable to gil. So let's say you want Coal, but the nodes also have Iron. Iron is twice as valuable, but Coal is what you need. The smart thing to do then is to collect Iron anyway, sell it, and buy twice as much Coal.

@Wint; that's fine. As I've tried to explain, I'm just confident. I would be very bad at my job if I didn't think I were good at it, you know? And whatever you think of my positions, you should know that there are few people, literally, in the world, who are better-versed on the subject of leisure experience design than I am (especially with respect to video game design). So if I don't know what I'm doing, then what are the odds that your game designers know what they're doing? If people confuse or equate that to arrogance, then I can see that, but I don't think I'm better than anyone else. I just think I'm right. At the end of the day, that doesn't make me any different from the rest of you, except that I'm more vocal about exactly what things I think I'm right about. And I'll continue to be, because talking about it makes me even better at it. It's not because I am the lord god of all that is game design, and you must hear my words, inscribe them in stone, and kneel facing the holy land I hail from every hour on the hour.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Dec 13 2012 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like I (think I) said in another thread, we'll just have to wait until 2.0 launches (well maybe a few months after) to see if you're right or not Smiley: nod
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#24 Dec 13 2012 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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I'm worried about what I see here. I know I am probably in the minority but I actually really liked fishing as it was. Aiming for different fish through bait and depth etc - was good. It added some level of "knowledge as skill" to the whole thing. It also made it more engaging.

If it is some variation of "click the fish you want and get it or not" - well, that will suck a lot.
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#25 Dec 13 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
I'm worried about what I see here. I know I am probably in the minority but I actually really liked fishing as it was. Aiming for different fish through bait and depth etc - was good. It added some level of "knowledge as skill" to the whole thing. It also made it more engaging.

If it is some variation of "click the fish you want and get it or not" - well, that will suck a lot.


While I can't answer with any certainty, I would think it would be different Olor. Fish didn't have specific spots you had to fish from, you could fish from anywhere. I can't imagine them changing that, especially on those high cliffs near Limsa. We'll have to wait until Beta to find out I imagine. I'm with you though, I'm hoping fishing is fun.
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#26 Dec 13 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Like I (think I) said in another thread, we'll just have to wait until 2.0 launches (well maybe a few months after) to see if you're right or not Smiley: nod


I'm sure we both hope I'm wrong. If the game is good and I learned something new, I'll count that as two wins.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Dec 13 2012 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I'm with you though, I'm hoping fishing is fun.


Yeah, I know you're a fisher too.

I do hope that at the very least they preserve the complexity of fishing. I'd be fine with them dumbing down mining and botany if they either keep fishing as complex as it was in 1.0 or make it even more skill/knowledge based. That way, for folks that want to make money by clicking a menu to get an item, there is two gathering professions - and for people that want something interesting and rewarding to do their downtime, there is fishing.
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#28 Dec 13 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fishing always seemed to be more about reaction and a true mini game, even as far back as XI when they changed it from just pressing X to actually fighting the fish. Hopefully they'll keep it going.
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#29 Dec 13 2012 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
swisa wrote:
I kind of like the idea of being able to get the thing I aim for with some percent of success. It's better than aiming for the thing I want and then having a random chance of getting it on top of the chance of failure on the attempt. Personally, I'd rather spend an hour doing 100 attempts and failing half of them to get 50 of the items I want to gather then spend an hour doing 40 attempts and get 15 items I didn't aim for, fail 10 of them and then get 15 items that I actually aimed for. Overall, it looks like a good change. The only bad part that I see, like another poster above, is that it will decrease the profitability of gathering. I guess all the money will go to those who can get the most +1 items.


The problem with this line of reasoning is that the items you want are unimportant. You're gathering to collect resources, which are ultimately transferable to gil. So let's say you want Coal, but the nodes also have Iron. Iron is twice as valuable, but Coal is what you need. The smart thing to do then is to collect Iron anyway, sell it, and buy twice as much Coal.

@Wint; that's fine. As I've tried to explain, I'm just confident. I would be very bad at my job if I didn't think I were good at it, you know? And whatever you think of my positions, you should know that there are few people, literally, in the world, who are better-versed on the subject of leisure experience design than I am (especially with respect to video game design). So if I don't know what I'm doing, then what are the odds that your game designers know what they're doing? If people confuse or equate that to arrogance, then I can see that, but I don't think I'm better than anyone else. I just think I'm right. At the end of the day, that doesn't make me any different from the rest of you, except that I'm more vocal about exactly what things I think I'm right about. And I'll continue to be, because talking about it makes me even better at it. It's not because I am the lord god of all that is game design, and you must hear my words, inscribe them in stone, and kneel facing the holy land I hail from every hour on the hour.


If you need/want both iron and coal, you can switch between the two. I like the option of being able to choose what I go for instead of aiming for something and having a random chance at getting it. If I aim for coal I don't want to get iron. I'd aim for iron if I wanted it. Due to the fact that it appears they removed the mini game, I can probably get 3 coal and 2 iron in the time it took me to get 1 coal in 1.x.
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#30 Dec 13 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
I don't personally think there is anything wrong with this new system we've been shown. However, I was also never really big into crafting and such when I played XI.

Part of the reason for that was how inaccessible crafting seemed. I played for about a year, quit, then came back and played from 2005-2011. When I rejoined in 2005, it was quite a feat to get a craft up near cap if you didn't have another way to really make money. Stuff was just so expensive, and it would take you a year and a week to try to go harvest your own stuff. I remember going mining and walking out of a 2-3 hour run with a ton of copper, zinc, and a few iron ores and maybe one adamantium or dark ore, or whatever.

When competing with others for mining points it was really frustrating when you came across an open one and all you got out of it was a copper ore. I'd rather see an opportunity for the good stuff and fail, rather than continue mining stuff I don't need that will NPC for a trivial amount of gil. I'm not saying a want a super-high chance of success (as that would lower the value of crafting in general), but instead give me a 10% chance to mine it or fail.

I also believe this might be a good setup to pair with the fact that crafts are now JOBS. You're not a Black Mage that just happens to be awesome at Clothcraft, you are the friggin seamstress. You're not a Paladin who dabbles as a Blacksmith, you are the Blacksmith the shop wearing the apron and wielding the hammer. You're supposed to be a pro and know more about the job, so it makes sense that you can look at a harvesting spot and know what you can get out of it.
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#31 Dec 13 2012 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Well. At least they managed to remove the tedium along with the bit of skill that was needed to hit the right spot.
Now it's just: A/B/C/D... you want?

Come to think of it... they could just have split A, B, C, and D among different trees, and skip the whole selection part altogether.
But I guess it gives us the illusion of freedom of choice.
#32 Dec 13 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seraphaniim wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I'm actually bummed. Previously it took knowledge and skill to mine up exactly what you wanted. This is going to mean that gathering will be less profitable, IMO.

I do like how much faster gathering is, and will wait until I can try it to judge.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 9:25am by Louiscool



I thought 1.0s gathering system was neat at first but it because tedious pretty fast. Eventually I would just throw a movie on before starting out on my crafting/gathering leves and barely pay attention to what I was doing. I don't want to use the "it's just alpha" argument but I hope they can find a balance between interest, convenience, and a bit of innovation. I'm running out of movies to watch.


Yeah, I got mining to 50 and... I think I watched the entire Star Wars and Indiana Jones series' on my second monitor.

I do like that they are changing it, but it seems over-simplified now (and too easily scriptable for a bot). At least this MAY put a re-emphasis on Gathering gear. As it stands I was using all Mind gear to boost ability triggering so that my only set ability (HQ find+) would go off more often, since perception was proven useless and gathering only worthwhile to a certain point.
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#33 Dec 13 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
you should know that there are few people, literally, in the world, who are better-versed on the subject of leisure experience design than I am (especially with respect to video game design).

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#34 Dec 13 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
"Click what you want to loot."


Best. Thing. Ever.

That in itself would actually get me to bother leveling a gathering class instead of just buying what I need.
#35 Dec 13 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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These jobs are fun now. The exp starts to slow down after a point but leve quests and such help bring in a few extra exp when you need it. I enjoy the new system they have for both, crafting and gathering, very much.
#36 Dec 13 2012 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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swisa wrote:

If you need/want both iron and coal, you can switch between the two. I like the option of being able to choose what I go for instead of aiming for something and having a random chance at getting it. If I aim for coal I don't want to get iron. I'd aim for iron if I wanted it. Due to the fact that it appears they removed the mini game, I can probably get 3 coal and 2 iron in the time it took me to get 1 coal in 1.x.


Maybe my point wasn't clear. In most cases, there will always be one right item to pick. That item will be the one with the best average return on gil. You pick that item, and if it isn't the one you needed, then you sell the more valuable one on the market and buy the one you needed. This way you make the most gil and have used your gathering time more wisely. If success rate contributes to XP, maybe you'll decide if you'd rather level faster or make money. With rare exception, this is how anyone who isn't just ******* around will gather-- they'll first have to do a little basic arithmetic on the menu options to see which has the best average return.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 1:54pm by Kachi
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#37 Dec 13 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:

Maybe my point wasn't clear. In most cases, there will always be one right item to pick. That item will be the one with the best average return on gil. You pick that item, and if it isn't the one you needed, then you sell the more valuable one on the market and buy the one you needed. This way you make the most gil and have used your gathering time more wisely. If success rate contributes to XP, maybe you'll decide if you'd rather level faster or make money. With rare exception, this is how anyone who isn't just ******* around will gather-- they'll first have to do a little basic arithmetic on the menu options to see which has the best average return.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 1:54pm by Kachi


Actually I don't quite agree with the arithmetic for best average return mainly because you didn't factor in time as part of it. Depending on playtime or play-style of people, the time and effort it takes to sell the 'best' average return you will end up with people that would much rather spend the time trying to gather specific items rather than whichever item makes most money. Early on in the game the rate at which materials are bought off AH/retainer might be fast as there will be more demand than supply but as the curve settles and more people start 'supplying' then the amount of time to sell all the 'unwanted' materials might be somewhere between 48-96 hours. That might not be a long time to some people but time is money, by the time you sell the stuff someone that didn't bother gathering the 'best' average return might already be way passed the skill level area for those materials.

People will always look for ways to optimize; the question is whether they are optimizing leveling time, gil farming, etc, or something in between will mean that things will vary a lot. So it's not really a matter if someone is '******** around or not but rather how they prioritize things, so there isn't a 'wise' way unless that way always trumps everything else under any condition.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 5:16pm by wdrekx
#38 Dec 13 2012 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Kachi wrote:
With rare exception, this is how anyone who isn't just ******* around will gather-- they'll first have to do a little basic arithmetic on the menu options to see which has the best average return.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 1:54pm by Kachi


Link

If you don't want to read it, it's basically the US Dept of Education saying the US is ranked 25th in Mathematics among industrialized nations. I'm not too worried about getting out-thought for making gil, especially if I'm on a US regional server Smiley: cool
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#39 Dec 13 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Liked half the video.

The first part, gathering, i liked. The second part, crafting, didn't liked it.

To me, it's still boring and useless the minigame ! imagine a person doing a lvl up crafting session, and the amount of clicks it will need to craft all the items :( BORING
#40 Dec 13 2012 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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I won't exactly weigh in the same way other people are here.

It's not a hidden fact that gathering and crafting are two things that I just don't enjoy usually. The fact that "Pick what you Loot" is an option might actually make it worthwhile for me because it will also mean I can pick what I want to level up to craft on and gather the meterials I need, all within the correct level ranges.

Again, there's no real endgame for crafting like there is for battle jobs (Seeking a Relic Weapon, for example.) so until that point I'm not exactly certain I'll be drawn into it beyond having a certain sense of independance once I've got them leveled.

This system lends itself to the latter fairly well, but I'm not entirely convinced it'll draw me in. How other people will take it? Beyond my purview.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 5:29pm by Hyrist
#41 Dec 13 2012 at 5:33 PM Rating: Default
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wdrekx wrote:
Actually I don't quite agree with the arithmetic for best average return mainly because you didn't factor in time as part of it. Depending on playtime or play-style of people, the time and effort it takes to sell the 'best' average return you will end up with people that would much rather spend the time trying to gather specific items rather than whichever item makes most money. Early on in the game the rate at which materials are bought off AH/retainer might be fast as there will be more demand than supply but as the curve settles and more people start 'supplying' then the amount of time to sell all the 'unwanted' materials might be somewhere between 48-96 hours. That might not be a long time to some people but time is money, by the time you sell the stuff someone that didn't bother gathering the 'best' average return might already be way passed the skill level area for those materials.

People will always look for ways to optimize; the question is whether they are optimizing leveling time, gil farming, etc, or something in between will mean that things will vary a lot. So it's not really a matter if someone is '******** around or not but rather how they prioritize things, so there isn't a 'wise' way unless that way always trumps everything else under any condition.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 5:16pm by wdrekx


Time is only a factor if SE's market and inventory systems are poor. Call me an optimist (haha), but I'd rather not think that the redeeming feature of the gathering system will be that the market system sucks. 99.9% of players who are gathering have a progress-related objective in mind. That progress is either going to be related to making gil, or leveling up. Yes, some players might go for the route which allows them to level most quickly, but that also means that there is no thought to put into the decision. It's also only true for as long as they need to level up. Are they just going to get to cap and stop? What's going to be the endgame for gathering if not to make money? If I know SE, this isn't even a question that crossed the desk.

For the first few months of the game as the value of items is being determined by the market, there will be a level of guesswork if not skill involved with gathering. I considered that as well, but that says nothing for the longevity of the feature.

IKickYoDog wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With rare exception, this is how anyone who isn't just ******* around will gather-- they'll first have to do a little basic arithmetic on the menu options to see which has the best average return.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 1:54pm by Kachi


Link

If you don't want to read it, it's basically the US Dept of Education saying the US is ranked 25th in Mathematics among industrialized nations. I'm not too worried about getting out-thought for making gil, especially if I'm on a US regional server Smiley: cool


While you're sadly correct, I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil when regularly repeating the action, unless you need that money like right now. I'm familiar enough with the level of math ability of the average FFXI player (unfortunately), and while they may not immediately figure it out, they can at least follow a simple directive.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Dec 13 2012 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I think they missed a nice opportunity with Crafting / Gathering that got off to a good start, but ended up flat on its face. It's understandable given that most people want to play an MMO for the combat, sacrifices have to be made to get the game back on track, and this is an obvious choice to sideline in that effort.

But the fact that DoL and DoH classes started off on equal footing as the DoM and DoW class brought forth a lot of unrealized potential. Where things went wrong, in my opinion, was that gathering and crafting needed to be as diverse in its approach to item acquisition as combatants have options in combat, and that just never materialized.

Gathering needed to be more than just finding the same old gathering points in the field and playing the same mini game with the same options every time. Crafting doesn't even have the "thrill" of being eaten by a passing mob so it's even more subdued. There needed to be struggle and variety of approaches or tools that led to different outcomes, miserable failures or glorious victories.

Take as an example: the Botanist. If you were chopping down a tree, you'd have more success cutting it a certain way if it were young or old, hardwood or softwood, and through trial and error, you'd find a good technique while other people might use different approaches to get good results. Maybe your idea of a "boss" would be taking on a treant in a way a regular warrior could not. But really, if the effort was put into it as though the Botantist class was the only thing FFXIV was about instead of fighting mobs, I think you'd have a much more robust and varied gathering system that would be the envy of the MMO world.

I guess what I'm saying is, they could have added an element of excitement and strategy instead of a bland and repetitive process that doesn't require much thought. As it is, it's a grind with a fancier UI, but it's still just a grind.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 7:46pm by Xoie
#43 Dec 13 2012 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah Xoie you really nailed it. I was really excited when they made crafters and gatherers full classes... and really sad when I found out they half-***** it, and even more sad when it was announced they were abandoning the idea of them being stand alone.

The alchemist questline was actually one of my favourites of the ones I worked on. They had the beginning of a great thing going on there, and then poof! We get the same boring stuff as ever.

I know it would have been a lot of work for things like allowing botanists to actually nurture and grow things out in the open world and even influence the shape of landscapes... and allowing miners to dig tunnels find secret passageways... and giving fishermen a quest to get a rowboat so they could visit coastal islands (and take passengers there) and fish in secret shoals .... but all those things would give people things to work towards, to do and allow them to make an impact on the world.

Ah well. Maybe in 2020 an mmo will happen that will give more depth to non battle classes. The existence and success of things like harvest moon, and games that involve buying selling and stocking a store show there are actually people who like that sort of thing... it's too bad there is no appetite from mmo developers to move out of their comfort zone
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#44 Dec 13 2012 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
I really like what I see in the new gathering/crafting video! I like that it's not overly complicated, and that the whole process will be faster. I like that making standard synths will be much easier, and that the "minigame" will really only be time-consuming for attempts at crafting HQ items. I don't think crafting in a game should be such a deterrent, and the same goes for gathering.
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#45 Dec 13 2012 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
Haven't seen you in a while Smiley: eek
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#46 Dec 13 2012 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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I hate crafting in all games so the only thing I liked about this video was the music.

Gathering needs to be easy, so it looks a bit better than it did in 1.0.

I don't want to play a mini-game to get some ore or lumber; I want to be in and out.

I can understand those who'd like it to be more in-depth, but like it has been stated, it needs to be done extremely well and to be fun, so that I both want to play the mini game and be excited about the reward. Or have the reward be really awesome, so that I do it even though it's boring.

Right now gathering is something I can do to farm for gil/gold/whatever, and the faster I can do it, the better it is.

Again, this and the game as a whole looks improved, and the rest of the game looks like it's making progress, so I'll take what I can get. :)
#47 Dec 13 2012 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
I don't want to play a mini-game to get some ore or lumber; I want to be in and out.

For this very reason, crafting materials will likely be made available from other sources(VW logs anyone?). 90% of the people looking for materials will probably do something else they enjoy more that makes them the gil needed to just buy mats if they want them.
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#48 Dec 13 2012 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to say, based on the video crafting looks a lot easier to pick up than it did in 1.0. I was so frickin confused that I never got a craft job beyond level 1 - I just poured all my effort into my DoW and DoM stuff. I did, however, do botanist, and that was kind of fun, but really tedious.

Based on the video, I like where they're going with it. Needlessly complex is not fun.
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#49 Dec 13 2012 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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#50 Dec 14 2012 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
swisa wrote:

If you need/want both iron and coal, you can switch between the two. I like the option of being able to choose what I go for instead of aiming for something and having a random chance at getting it. If I aim for coal I don't want to get iron. I'd aim for iron if I wanted it. Due to the fact that it appears they removed the mini game, I can probably get 3 coal and 2 iron in the time it took me to get 1 coal in 1.x.


Maybe my point wasn't clear. In most cases, there will always be one right item to pick. That item will be the one with the best average return on gil. You pick that item, and if it isn't the one you needed, then you sell the more valuable one on the market and buy the one you needed. This way you make the most gil and have used your gathering time more wisely. If success rate contributes to XP, maybe you'll decide if you'd rather level faster or make money. With rare exception, this is how anyone who isn't just ******* around will gather-- they'll first have to do a little basic arithmetic on the menu options to see which has the best average return.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 1:54pm by Kachi


I must be "************* around then, because when I gather, I gather the items I need to craft whatever item I need and then get out. Maybe you liked the random chance to get something that you weren't actually aiming for, but I didn't. I don't gather the items just to sell. During 1.0, I found that I could make much more money doing SB parties once a week then I could if I spent my time mining. I had limited time to play and I did better with that. I understand what you are saying, it's just I don't use your particular strategy. Personally, I think it not only sounds like it's not worth it, but also a massive pain in the **** for the added effort to gather something that sells best for gil, sell it, and then go and spend that gil to buy what I need and keep a negligible amount of gil at the end and get the items I need. I'm willing to forgoe that negligible amount of gil to get what I need asap and move on. Perhaps it worked for you, but when I spent an hour only getting 10 gold ore and a bunch of other stuff that sells for 50-100 gil each and thousands of which are already saturating the market, it's not worth selling those on the markets and the NPC prices were a small pitance to what I would get compared to selling the gold ore in the first place.

Perhaps it'll be different in 2.0, but we wont know that until the game releases.
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#51 Dec 14 2012 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil

Hmm. Looks like I'm an exception to the rule.
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