Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

Alpha Video 6 - Gathering and CraftingFollow

#52 Dec 14 2012 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
****
4,153 posts
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil

Hmm. Looks like I'm an exception to the rule.

Sign me up.

I don't think I know anyone dumb enough to turn down a guaranteed $900 for a 10% chance at only 10% more...

Is there some new form of extreme sarcasm that I'm not up on yet?


Edited, Dec 14th 2012 3:37am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#53 Dec 14 2012 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Xoie wrote:
Personally, I think they missed a nice opportunity with Crafting / Gathering that got off to a good start, but ended up flat on its face. It's understandable given that most people want to play an MMO for the combat, sacrifices have to be made to get the game back on track, and this is an obvious choice to sideline in that effort.

But the fact that DoL and DoH classes started off on equal footing as the DoM and DoW class brought forth a lot of unrealized potential. Where things went wrong, in my opinion, was that gathering and crafting needed to be as diverse in its approach to item acquisition as combatants have options in combat, and that just never materialized.

Gathering needed to be more than just finding the same old gathering points in the field and playing the same mini game with the same options every time. Crafting doesn't even have the "thrill" of being eaten by a passing mob so it's even more subdued. There needed to be struggle and variety of approaches or tools that led to different outcomes, miserable failures or glorious victories.

Take as an example: the Botanist. If you were chopping down a tree, you'd have more success cutting it a certain way if it were young or old, hardwood or softwood, and through trial and error, you'd find a good technique while other people might use different approaches to get good results. Maybe your idea of a "boss" would be taking on a treant in a way a regular warrior could not. But really, if the effort was put into it as though the Botantist class was the only thing FFXIV was about instead of fighting mobs, I think you'd have a much more robust and varied gathering system that would be the envy of the MMO world.

I guess what I'm saying is, they could have added an element of excitement and strategy instead of a bland and repetitive process that doesn't require much thought. As it is, it's a grind with a fancier UI, but it's still just a grind.

Edited, Dec 13th 2012 7:46pm by Xoie


Totally agree. Crafting may lack a certain thrill that combat has, but there are plenty of games that are centered around the idea of performing mundane chores that manage to make them reasonably interesting.

catwho wrote:
I have to say, based on the video crafting looks a lot easier to pick up than it did in 1.0. I was so frickin confused that I never got a craft job beyond level 1 - I just poured all my effort into my DoW and DoM stuff. I did, however, do botanist, and that was kind of fun, but really tedious.

Based on the video, I like where they're going with it. Needlessly complex is not fun.


I hope I'm not quibbling with you, but "needlessly complex" isn't a very useful standard to consider. Complex games can be lots of fun, as can very simple games. As long as the elements create value, particularly by providing a skill-based challenge and making good narrative sense, complexity is fine even if it's "unnecessary" on the surface.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#54 Dec 14 2012 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil

Hmm. Looks like I'm an exception to the rule.

Sign me up.

I don't think I know anyone dumb enough to turn down a guaranteed $900 for a 10% chance at only 10% more...

Is there some new form of extreme sarcasm that I'm not up on yet?


Whoops, typo. Should be 90 gil. Too many zeros @_@
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#55 Dec 17 2012 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
I mined Cobalt to make my riches, but my friend made money faster soulbinding. Mining was still a license to print money though..

It's fine though. My competition for the cobalt market was always against others who knew what they were doing, so I don't think making gathering more user-friendly will change much in the market. Sure, there will be the people who undercut the norm price and unspoken agreement most gatherers seems to follow with the established market price, but they generally don't have the quantity to impact it for long.

____________________________


#56 Dec 17 2012 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
562 posts
I hate doing FFXI comparisons, but in terms of gathering and crafting it's one MMORPG I feel did it very right and subsequently, very wrong, compared to modern MMO game crafting/gathering.

And it wasn't necessarily the mechanics, but the entire economy. Low level materials still had significant demand, just as much as mid and high level. As such profitability in a gathering trade was completely dependent upon knowledge of the items being gathered and current market demand, not just the level scale of the area being gathered in or mob killed for farming.

Zinc ore had a very complex demand structure, as did iron and darksteel. There were strategies to mining higher level areas with more return such as Gusgen, or you could stick to relatively safer zones for quicker as seen in Palborough. In addition, each area had a strategy to gathering profitability, and the unique trade and craft economy of the game didn't cause the lower level mines such as Palborough to become completely irrelevant for gathering once you could mine a higher level zone.

Same for mob farming drops such as beehive chips and silk. A level 1-5 mob that drops items worth saving and gathering for trade profit is extremely exciting, and it helps foster a gathering and farming metagame that is quite varied and unique.

Crafting could be tedious and I completely understand people's frustrations with it, but the overall structure of it in terms of keeping low and mid level items constant in demand was pretty fantastic. Instead of just blowing through the first 10 or 20 crafting levels by pushing a button, these steps took a bit of planning and time to execute, and thus the items necessary for synthesis were just as in demand as the higher level ones.

In terms of FFXIV, we'll see how it shapes up. If low-level botanist gathering items have no market value because of the low demand of the material's gathered, the crafting and gathering game I'm afraid will be tiresome and boring. If the only items of market value from gathers are those from level 45+ zones, I don't have any hopes of those disciplines and methods being enjoyable.

FFXIV isn't FFXI, and it will never be. But there's no reason FFXIV has to copy the uninspiring and boring crafting/gathering game from other modern MMORPGs and adhere to that structure. Take the good from the FFXI economy while improving the bad from the overall process.
____________________________
FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#57 Dec 17 2012 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil

Hmm. Looks like I'm an exception to the rule.

Sign me up.

I don't think I know anyone dumb enough to turn down a guaranteed $900 for a 10% chance at only 10% more...

Is there some new form of extreme sarcasm that I'm not up on yet?


Whoops, typo. Should be 90 gil. Too many zeros @_@


This also assumes a zero competition environment and infinite time. If you have competition for resources (like you did in FFXI) and a limited amount of time (only an hour to harvest or mine today before having to log out of the game), then the 100% chance at 90 gil may provide a better ROI over the short term. On the other hand, low or no competition (your own personal mine points) may make the ROI on the 10% chance of 1000 gil worth of stuff worth it.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#58 Dec 17 2012 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Whales wrote:
FFXIV isn't FFXI, and it will never be. But there's no reason FFXIV has to copy the uninspiring and boring crafting/gathering game from other modern MMORPGs and adhere to that structure. Take the good from the FFXI economy while improving the bad from the overall process.


Your post was a nice read, and I believe that this above statement in particular should be made more general and applied as an axiom for all aspects of FFXIV. That is, "Take the good from... FFXI... while improving the bad." Sadly, SE's modus operandi this time around seems to be, "Try something stupid, fail, then implement something safe and uninspired."
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#59 Dec 17 2012 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Whales wrote:
FFXIV isn't FFXI, and it will never be. But there's no reason FFXIV has to copy the uninspiring and boring crafting/gathering game from other modern MMORPGs and adhere to that structure. Take the good from the FFXI economy while improving the bad from the overall process.


Your post was a nice read, and I believe that this above statement in particular should be made more general and applied as an axiom for all aspects of FFXIV. That is, "Take the good from... FFXI... while improving the bad." Sadly, SE's modus operandi this time around seems to be, "Try something stupid, fail, then implement something safe and uninspired."


Smiley: laugh I likewise think it's sort of sad that FFXIV isn't really borrowing more from the good elements of FFXI, though I guess there's the argument that a lot of the good elements of XI were accidental. For as much as I've criticized XI, I really didn't think it would be so hard to make into a really fun game for more casual players.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Dec 18 2012 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Wint wrote:


Looking good!



While it looks beautiful. This click-and-get is just further noobification of MMOs. The days of hardcore seem to be coming to and end my friends.
#61 Dec 18 2012 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Whales wrote:
I hate doing FFXI comparisons, but in terms of gathering and crafting it's one MMORPG I feel did it very right and subsequently, very wrong, compared to modern MMO game crafting/gathering.

And it wasn't necessarily the mechanics, but the entire economy. Low level materials still had significant demand, just as much as mid and high level. As such profitability in a gathering trade was completely dependent upon knowledge of the items being gathered and current market demand, not just the level scale of the area being gathered in or mob killed for farming.

Zinc ore had a very complex demand structure, as did iron and darksteel. There were strategies to mining higher level areas with more return such as Gusgen, or you could stick to relatively safer zones for quicker as seen in Palborough. In addition, each area had a strategy to gathering profitability, and the unique trade and craft economy of the game didn't cause the lower level mines such as Palborough to become completely irrelevant for gathering once you could mine a higher level zone.

Same for mob farming drops such as beehive chips and silk. A level 1-5 mob that drops items worth saving and gathering for trade profit is extremely exciting, and it helps foster a gathering and farming metagame that is quite varied and unique.

Crafting could be tedious and I completely understand people's frustrations with it, but the overall structure of it in terms of keeping low and mid level items constant in demand was pretty fantastic. Instead of just blowing through the first 10 or 20 crafting levels by pushing a button, these steps took a bit of planning and time to execute, and thus the items necessary for synthesis were just as in demand as the higher level ones.

In terms of FFXIV, we'll see how it shapes up. If low-level botanist gathering items have no market value because of the low demand of the material's gathered, the crafting and gathering game I'm afraid will be tiresome and boring. If the only items of market value from gathers are those from level 45+ zones, I don't have any hopes of those disciplines and methods being enjoyable.

FFXIV isn't FFXI, and it will never be. But there's no reason FFXIV has to copy the uninspiring and boring crafting/gathering game from other modern MMORPGs and adhere to that structure. Take the good from the FFXI economy while improving the bad from the overall process.



Sorry for double posting, I don't use forums very often and I couldn't figure out how to edit my previous post to include this post.

You sir should immediately be placed on a jet, sent to wherever SEs headquarters are and be given a nice plushy office chair with a moogle next to it. This is exactly what is needed. And not just this type of thinking in the crafting market, but throughout the game.

Another small example, do you have ANY IDEA how brilliant the Lu Shangs fishing rod quest was??? It literally meant a lv 1 fisherman could go out and make a buck. This was absolutely genius, and it immersed the low level player into the game immediately. So many parts of the game did this. With XIV in it's previous version, there was NOTHING to immerse the player. I even maxed out my fishing level, and still couldn't make a penny because the economy was so bad.
#62 Dec 18 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
SE realized they screwed up the economy in 1.0 which is why they are completely gutting it and redoing it. First, they over-inflated gil from the get go, which is why they're doing currency re-denomination and everything is getting dropped 90% in value. Second, the NPC merchant system was terribly implemented and never fixed. They were trying to imitate the "Rolanmart" bazaars in FFXI, but those particular bazaars came as a roundabout solution to the fact that not everything could be sold on the AH. Putting in retainers as the main method of selling gear was just dumb and caused way more problems than it solved.

I do think retainers still have a place in XIV, but they need to be something that is earned at level 50 in a crafting job, not given to you at level 1, and they need to cost a lot of money from the get go and be placed in a mainly accessible area instead of secreted away. That way, a level 50 crafter can have a retainer selling high quality goods only.

The rest of the low level stuff needs an AH system to move the goods. And an AH needs to be readily available at level one.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#63 Dec 18 2012 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
660 posts
What really strikes me the most about the differences in economy/crafting from FFXI to XIV is how hard the developers tried to circumvent gilsellers and bots. In trying to avoid that, they ended up with terrible mechanics for the rest of us to deal with. Even the AH in XI was notoriously abused, not just by bots but by actual players. I don't believe S-E can come up with a system that is enjoyable that absolutely cannot be exploited. Someone will always find a way to fight the system.
____________________________
Nasozan, Midgardsormr Server. R.I.P.
75 BRD, SAM, WHM; 74 THF, BLM; 69 PLD, BST.
Darth Howie wrote:
Woe unto he who tries to be helpful, for upon him shall be lain the burdens of all.
- Squall 15:11
#64 Dec 18 2012 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Instead of trying to prevent it outright, just put in good "big data" analytics to track the ebb and flow of gil at a macro level. The technology exists to analyze an AH system, trading and bartering, etc, and catch cheaters and botters in the act while leaving the legit players alone.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#65 Dec 19 2012 at 6:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
588 posts
catwho wrote:
Instead of trying to prevent it outright, just put in good "big data" analytics to track the ebb and flow of gil at a macro level. The technology exists to analyze an AH system, trading and bartering, etc, and catch cheaters and botters in the act while leaving the legit players alone.


My account was hacked once while playing WoW and they stripped everything including the guild vault. Because I knew exactly what time I logged out Blizzard was able to restore everything I lost and follow the trail to which accounts received the items. I thought I was hosed but the other guy was SOL.

I guess I'm saying I agree with your post.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 1:39am by kainsilv
____________________________



#66 Dec 19 2012 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
catwho wrote:
Instead of trying to prevent it outright, just put in good "big data" analytics to track the ebb and flow of gil at a macro level. The technology exists to analyze an AH system, trading and bartering, etc, and catch cheaters and botters in the act while leaving the legit players alone.


They could also look into banning all the parties of people with names like Xafsgojhkjh wearing level 1 armour and moving from gathering point to gathering point. Maybe. It couldn't be that hard to pay one guy to hop around servers and chip away at extremely obvious bots/gil farmers.

But ultimately I think you're completely correct. SE has all of the data, they just need to look at it!
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#67 Dec 19 2012 at 2:41 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil

Hmm. Looks like I'm an exception to the rule.

Sign me up.

I don't think I know anyone dumb enough to turn down a guaranteed $900 for a 10% chance at only 10% more...

Is there some new form of extreme sarcasm that I'm not up on yet?


Edited, Dec 14th 2012 3:37am by FilthMcNasty


Nope no new forms of sarcasm. This is who game developers have to try and make games fun for these days.
#68 Dec 20 2012 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
je355804 wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
I think even the dimmest players can grasp that a 10% chance at 1000gil is better than a 100% chance at 900 gil

Hmm. Looks like I'm an exception to the rule.

Sign me up.

I don't think I know anyone dumb enough to turn down a guaranteed $900 for a 10% chance at only 10% more...

Is there some new form of extreme sarcasm that I'm not up on yet?


Edited, Dec 14th 2012 3:37am by FilthMcNasty


Nope no new forms of sarcasm. This is who game developers have to try and make games fun for these days.


scroll up. it was a typo ;)
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#69 Dec 20 2012 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:
scroll up. it was a typo ;)


Internet law: Typo = irrefutable proof of utter stupidity.
#70 Dec 20 2012 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Don't make me hold you to that.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#71 Dec 20 2012 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Internet law: Internet laws never apply to me.
#72 Dec 20 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
Whales! Thank you! You articulated something I was feeling but wasn't really able to put together in my head.

I think that XIV did suffer too much from locking mats up behind either mobs only able to be fought by players at or around max level - or mats only elite gatherers could target. As Je pointed out - the result was gathering felt unfulfilling because you couldn't actually really profit much off of it.

As someone who has farmed wild onions many a time while leveling up a level 6 job... I loved the way it worked in XI.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


1 2 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (17)