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something just crossed my mind about hardcore MMOs.Follow

#1 Dec 14 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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If casual MMOs are the new things and hardcore mmos are taboo this gen/dead (just look at ffxi today). Then can someone explain EVE online? just LOOKING at that game makes me feel like Id need a degree or PHD before Im intelligent enough to know/understand how to play it... yet that game has how many ppl playing everyday and getting expansions every year? clear its making enough money
#2 Dec 14 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
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Nerdgame, catering to nerd needs and nerddreams and nerd lifestyle.
The perfect filling for a niche, if you will so. The niche is full now.
#3 Dec 14 2012 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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please do define "nerdgame"
#4 Dec 14 2012 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Nerdgame, catering to nerd needs and nerddreams and nerd lifestyle.
The perfect filling for a niche, if you will so. The niche is full now.


Nerdgame? Not terribly fond of that opinion.

But I will agree it's a niche game. "Learning Curve" is thrown around a lot. And pirating (/squeels), or rather the amount of it, puts off many a player when all they've worked for explodes within seconds. That said, those of us who love it, love it. It's the wild west of mmo's and that alone will maintain a playerbase that enjoys that type of rush. Plus it's just a visually gorgeous game.
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#5 Dec 14 2012 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Complexity is not a bad thing in MMOs, nor does complexity preclude a casual playstyle. Chess, for example, has been played casually for decades (centuries if you count its iterations).

The problem with complexity in most games is the steep learning curve they tend to thrust you into. That's what turns many players off--when the game doesn't work you into things slowly.

But these days, where players are more prone to do as you have done and research the game before trying it, it's very easy to look at the game, become intimidated, and not give it a shot. Unfortunately, that really limits the depth and length of viability for games. It's a big part of the reason that MMOs are failing left and right... they're too afraid to add enough depth to make the gameplay really interesting because they don't want to scare away players. But what they need to do is the same thing every other game that's not a carbon copy of an established genre has to do... work players in slowly. You can add as many elements as you like if you provide tutorials and escalate the challenge at a pace that players can manage.

It's like teaching dance. Most people will be too afraid to try it if you try to just thrust them into it. You'd be setting them up for failure, and people hate having to perform a new skill that they're not good at without having had an opportunity to practice at it.
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I'm actually going through some similar problems with the project I'm working on. People find out we have over 1000 skills to choose from, and they get spooked. But the abilities are not complicated, there's no need to learn what they all do, and when considering the number of skills, traits, and abilities in your average MMO, 1000 isn't really an absurd number. One solution would be to remove a large chunk of the game's depth, but there are less lazy solutions that don't require that sacrifice. They're just more work. For example, we had to scaffold the rules so that certain game elements aren't available until later levels, and develop a UI that limits the visible number of available skills.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#6 Dec 14 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I will admit the learning curve for ffxi was harsh for a newb. The experience afterwards though was unique and I still cherish it today. I do believe that for a "hardcore" kind of mmo, you need the community for it.
#7 Dec 14 2012 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I used to play FFXI and loved it, but quit in 2009 when my old LS went bust. Now I play EVE online.

For me an MMO is about community.

I was introduced to FFXI by a friend. FFXI was my first MMO and I remember how excited I was to be playing amongst, and interacting with, other people around the world. I remember showing the game to some other friends a few years later and they were amazed at the concept of chatting to some random guy form another part of the world (they lived a sheltered life, but are now much happier). I think that is something that is taken for granted nowadays and people are MMOs are growing more secluded with people playing solo with no need to communicate with one another.

After I quit FFXI I tried a few MMO's but nothing that I really felt a part of like I did in FFXI. That was until I started paying EVE online.

Like FFXI, EVE is really a game that (in my opinion) you get little out of unless you are art of a community. I did some research before I started playing and joined EVE University - a huge corporation dedicated to introducing new people to the game. I met some great people there and, after about a year pottering about and exploring the vastly different play styles on offer, I joined a PVP corp based in the most hostile areas of space.

I can honestly say (and I'm a little embarrassed to say) that I have never had such an adrenalin rush from a game as I had in my first few encounters in EVE PVP. This is something that has continued and I love nothing more than getting together with a bunch of like minded people (there are 400,000 subscribers to choose from - all based on one server) and hunting down unsuspecting others, suspecting others or even being hunted by and blown up by others - all for fun and the pleasure of competition.

I think EVE is somewhat of a unique concept amongst MMO's these days - the emphasis is on whatever the players want - there are so many options and it's the players that provide most of the content rather than the developers. My main is in a dedicated PVP corp, but I have a couple of alts in a freighter corp that earns money providing a removal service for other players. Both corps are entirely player driven and I would expect that anyone who had played the game for some time would have heard of both of them.

Of course, you can also play casually. For example, if PVP is your thing, you can join up with RVB (red vs blue) - two corporations instantly at war with one another so you can log in and get a fight within minutes. Or, if you prefer, you can join up with any number corps specialising in industry, faction warfare, PVE etc.

EVE is definately a game you need to be a part of to get the most out of. Absorbing yourself within a group of other people and achieving things together is, in my opinion, where the game truly excels over others. There is a steep learning curve and a lot of patience required to get the most out of the experience, which is where it falls down for a lot of people.

In essence, if you're willing to put in the time and effort, then I think it's a unique gaming experience, but its certainly not for everyone.

I can't help wondering if MMOs are destined for specialisation. I don't think that companies can afford to keep on following out WOW clones in the hope of being the next WOW - there will never be another WOW. I think companies need to start looking at niche markets for MMO's and learn to expect lower subscriber rates - you simply can't please everyone, but if you can please even a minority than you can still make a decent profit as EVE has shown.



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#8 Dec 15 2012 at 3:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Mince wrote:
I can honestly say (and I'm a little embarrassed to say) that I have never had such an adrenalin rush from a game as I had in my first few encounters in EVE PVP.

Nothing to be embarrassed about really. I think anyone who played XI and camped NMs with long windows of nothing going on between pops could attest to the heart race you get when the lottery works in your favor. This was a large part of what kept me playing the game for so long and it continues to be something I really look for and look forward to in games.
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#9 Dec 15 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Mince wrote:
I can honestly say (and I'm a little embarrassed to say) that I have never had such an adrenalin rush from a game as I had in my first few encounters in EVE PVP.

Nothing to be embarrassed about really. I think anyone who played XI and camped NMs with long windows of nothing going on between pops could attest to the heart race you get when the lottery works in your favor. This was a large part of what kept me playing the game for so long and it continues to be something I really look for and look forward to in games.


As for me, I never want to go back to that kind of experience ever again.

I don't want to get into the same sick mindset of staring at a screen scanning the map every 15 seconds for 10 hours a day for an indeterminate number of days for some in game item. It's not healthy and it's not the kind of thing I'd want to do to enjoy myself in the free time I do get.

I've always thought the term "hardcore MMO" was a misnomer. I don't see what's "hardcore" about doing the same repetitive, unskilled tasks in a video game over and over for an excessively large amount of time. It doesn't seem like something to brag about.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 9:12am by Dizmo
#10 Dec 15 2012 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Mince wrote:
I can honestly say (and I'm a little embarrassed to say) that I have never had such an adrenalin rush from a game as I had in my first few encounters in EVE PVP.

Nothing to be embarrassed about really. I think anyone who played XI and camped NMs with long windows of nothing going on between pops could attest to the heart race you get when the lottery works in your favor. This was a large part of what kept me playing the game for so long and it continues to be something I really look for and look forward to in games.


As for me, I never want to go back to that kind of experience ever again.

I don't want to get into the same sick mindset of staring at a screen scanning the map every 15 seconds for 10 hours a day for an indeterminate number of days for some in game item. It's not healthy and it's not the kind of thing I'd want to do to enjoy myself in the free time I do get.

I've always thought the term "hardcore MMO" was a misnomer. I don't see what's "hardcore" about doing the same repetitive, unskilled tasks in a video game over and over for an excessively large amount of time. It doesn't seem like something to brag about.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 9:12am by Dizmo


I completely agree. I had the same experiences, and while at the time it seemed like it was just the game being successful at getting me to play, I really didn't enjoy it. I was being compulsive about achieving my goals, not actually having a good time.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Dec 15 2012 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
I don't want to get into the same sick mindset of staring at a screen scanning the map every 15 seconds for 10 hours a day for an indeterminate number of days for some in game item. It's not healthy and it's not the kind of thing I'd want to do to enjoy myself in the free time I do get.


It's a preference, but I wouldn't call those who enjoy it sick or unhealthy. We are all sitting on our toukis for hours a day staring at a screen and I'm sure there are a zillion other more productive things we could be doing, but some enjoy doing that with their leisure time.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#12 Dec 16 2012 at 2:51 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Mince wrote:
I can honestly say (and I'm a little embarrassed to say) that I have never had such an adrenalin rush from a game as I had in my first few encounters in EVE PVP.

Nothing to be embarrassed about really. I think anyone who played XI and camped NMs with long windows of nothing going on between pops could attest to the heart race you get when the lottery works in your favor. This was a large part of what kept me playing the game for so long and it continues to be something I really look for and look forward to in games.


imo, the PvP adrenaline rush is unlike any other (aside from like, RL things). It also, sadly, fades with time if you pvp consistently. I did notice that taking a break "raises your tolerance" again, since you are rusty and therefore may very well get swiftly curb-stomped. Game designers are always searching for ways to get emotional reaction into their games; PvP is just about the best way to do it that i've seen.

So are well-designed risk/reward PvE scenarios, but I sense that i'm about to digress, and probably talk about Dark Souls, so i'm going to go ahead and just shut that right down.
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#13 Dec 16 2012 at 4:51 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I don't want to get into the same sick mindset of staring at a screen scanning the map every 15 seconds for 10 hours a day for an indeterminate number of days for some in game item. It's not healthy and it's not the kind of thing I'd want to do to enjoy myself in the free time I do get.


It's a preference, but I wouldn't call those who enjoy it sick or unhealthy. We are all sitting on our toukis for hours a day staring at a screen and I'm sure there are a zillion other more productive things we could be doing, but some enjoy doing that with their leisure time.


Some things are just sick and unhealthy, no matter how you turn it. You can argue about the freedom of choice and about how it's your life as long as you want - we're the ones who have to live with that balding 40 year old basement dweller virgin who throws lustful eyes at our little girls.

Just to warm up a few barroom clichés.
#14 Dec 16 2012 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, unfortunately a highly sedentary lifestyle is bad for you in too many ways to be defended.

Llester wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Mince wrote:
I can honestly say (and I'm a little embarrassed to say) that I have never had such an adrenalin rush from a game as I had in my first few encounters in EVE PVP.

Nothing to be embarrassed about really. I think anyone who played XI and camped NMs with long windows of nothing going on between pops could attest to the heart race you get when the lottery works in your favor. This was a large part of what kept me playing the game for so long and it continues to be something I really look for and look forward to in games.


imo, the PvP adrenaline rush is unlike any other (aside from like, RL things). It also, sadly, fades with time if you pvp consistently. I did notice that taking a break "raises your tolerance" again, since you are rusty and therefore may very well get swiftly curb-stomped. Game designers are always searching for ways to get emotional reaction into their games; PvP is just about the best way to do it that i've seen.

So are well-designed risk/reward PvE scenarios, but I sense that i'm about to digress, and probably talk about Dark Souls, so i'm going to go ahead and just shut that right down.


That's actually why PvP is one of the easier genres to design for. The normal curve of player ability does one of the hardest parts of game design FOR you: creating an appropriate level of difficulty and challenge.

PvE can in theory do just as well, if as you say, the risk/reward elements are well-balanced. But that requires designers who are actually on the ball, tracking player success statistics and ready to tweak game algorithms at a moment's notice.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Dec 16 2012 at 6:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
...we're the ones who have to live with that balding 40 year old basement dweller virgin who throws lustful eyes at our little girls.

I did no such thing!
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#16 Dec 16 2012 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I did no such thing!

You mean when you were not yet finished balding?
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