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#1 Dec 14 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Hello Zam peeps,

A but long winded, so just skip to the questions if TLDR,

FFXI was my first MMO. I stopped playing in 2009 when my LS started to break apart and I had other things to occupy my mind. I did play FFXI for few months back in early 2012 but found the community somewhat less homely, although I accept that given the time I may have found a happy home.

What I liked about FFXI was the sense of community and the fact that you had to work together to achieve anything. This was something that the entire player recognised/recognized and there wasn't really much solo play appart from levelling BST. To be honest, I really enjoyed the party based grinding and the 'flow' of playing my particular job at the time - just trying to optimise my time by playing as efficiently as possible (chaining as fast as poss) is something I found quite challenging.

I would really like to think that FFXIV is an extension to this, but one which introduces improvements in the user interface, content and combat dynamics amongst other things. I really don't want to play another 'WOW clone', but am slightly concerned about the comment on Lodestone that Level progression is primarily quest based. I don't know what incentives there are for party play other than perhaps some group related quests (which you could skip) and maybe some dungeons. In FFXI I really felt like I was learning my job when partied with others and doing my upmost at fulfilling a certain role as efficiently as possible - a marked difference between those who knew their job and those who leached.

I don't mean to slag off FFXIV in any way, but my questions are:

1. Is FFXIV really going to follow the quest based formulae that seems to be so popular (at least amongst developers - see SWTOR) these days.

2. Does anyone else still prefer 'The Grind', to quest style progression?

3. Do you think that done are the days of pleasing the majority - lets specialise our MMO to a particular player base (it seems to me that nothing fits all/majority any longer).

4. What are the incentives to party based levelling (I worry that a little more EXP won't be enough to encourage this type of play en mass - what's the point in an MMO if its just played solo?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hardcore player by any means (perhaps 5-10 hours a week and would welcome some casual play) but being able to solo to max level in a few weeks just seems like a flash in the pan to me. Personally, I would consider myself a casual gamer, but one which likes the idea of having to work really hard to get to the same level as those with more time.

Mince

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 9:36pm by Mince
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#2 Dec 14 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dont usually post here, but this one caught my eye. O.o

I didnt join the party in FFXI till late '06, early '07 when I first got out of AIT. Like you, FFXI was my first MMO. Since then I've dabbled with WoW and Rift. But SW:TOR, GW2, and FFXIV ended up being the ones I enjoyed/played the most/kept coming back to.

1. It does seem FFXIV will continue to be more quest oritentated. But it looks as though they intended to incorporate the FATE system. Which seems to be dynamic events popping up like that of Rift/GW2. Which is nice, and should give a bit more life to the game compared to that of SWTOR/WoW.

2. Honestly... I'd prefer both. Grinding is something I wish I could go back to at times. You learn your job, your role that you are to play in the group. Also, I just find running back and forth to turn in quest annoying. Run here, kill 10 of these, run back. I'd rather just setup camp, kill 20, and get my level. However, on the same side of the coin, creating a party is tedious and time consuming. I dont wanna wait around for an hour trying to find a healer, and by the time you do, your tank decides to leave. Both need to be viable options, but I'm not sure if thats possible. Like you said, a small experience boost and most of us will probably just end up playing solo anyways.

3. Unfortunately, I believe the MMO players who want quest based leveling are the majority now. Many of us who are in our 20's or older, dont have the time to commit spending hours and hours trying to get a party, find a good spot to camp. Someone leaves now you're spending more time waiting on their replacement, and then someone else leaves and...ugh. I loved FFXI, but it was tedious at times. Because of that I never made it to end-game. I got my THF to around 62 I think it was and felt my enthusiasm to play dwindling before I got deployed. No body feels like sitting around and trying to get a party together. Most wanna do what they wanna do and hop off. Not that it's a bad thing, but you can tell because MMO's dont seem to be very...social...at all unless you join a guild with quite a few out going people to keep things interesting.

4. And not sure on this. I know like you said, and as I stated above, a small bonus to experience isnt really going to make people feel the need of finding a party. As for an answer, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
#3 Dec 15 2012 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
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1. Is FFXIV really going to follow the quest based formulae that seems to be so popular (at least amongst developers - see SWTOR) these days.

Probably. I think these are great when the quests are well-designed. When they're just "Kill 10 rats, then talk to this NPC" I think it's a slight improvement over general grinding, but not by much. Certainly if open world progression is well-designed, uninspired questing can simply get in the way of an otherwise fun game.

2. Does anyone else still prefer 'The Grind', to quest style progression?

People use the term "grind" in different ways, but the reason it was originally called the grind is because it's boring. So no, I would imagine not many people prefer a method that is definitively boring. There's a small minority of players who are more easily amused by that kind of play, or find it relaxing, however.

3. Do you think that done are the days of pleasing the majority - lets specialise our MMO to a particular player base (it seems to me that nothing fits all/majority any longer).

Probably not. We'll probably continue to see MMOs attempt to cater to as large an audience as possible. The thing is, you can cater to the 95% of players and keep 5% of them, or you can cater to 5% of the players and hope to get that many. Since either method will require roughly equivalent development resources, companies are going to shoot for the biggest piece of the pie they can get. MMOs are extremely expensive to make. Designing them for a niche audience as the goal is probably not the best way to garner investor support.

4. What are the incentives to party based levelling (I worry that a little more EXP won't be enough to encourage this type of play en mass - what's the point in an MMO if its just played solo?)

This is one of those unfortunate things where people think they know what they like and dislike without really giving it a fair shot. People think they would rather level up solo, because that's their initial thought (9 times out of 10 I think that too when I sit down to play). It's like trying to get a kid to eat new food sometimes. High solo play is candy. Required party play definitely has the opportunity to be a more fulfilling experience in the long run because the social element adds so much value. But we're not always good at delaying gratification to set ourselves up for the better experience, especially in recreation. And right now there are at least two major problems that designers will have to address:
1) Balanced and engaging party play. Unfortunately, many of our children were fed a party play model and they really didn't like it, so now they think they'll always prefer solo play, even though they've probably only tried one, maybe two kinds of party-based play. The average player will think "I liked solo play, not party play," without qualification. In short, party play has to be designed better.

2) Consideration for the internet culture. You can't just thrust a bunch of random young people into an online game and expect a magical chemistry between them, nor can you just allow survival of the fittest to just play out... the casualties include too many subscribers. You HAVE to include design elements that specifically promote positive social experiences. That can include community moderation, or even subtle reminders about how to be a decent human being. Or you can even bring the social element more saliently into the game play.

But these are things that are hard to do, and most design teams aren't able to effectively identify the problems related to party play and recognize solutions.
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#4 Dec 15 2012 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't understand why anyone want to play an MMO solo. There is no challenge or serious story to be had, just performing the same actions again and again and watching number goes up. But I guess some people really are entertained by the equivalent of Progress Quest...
#5 Dec 15 2012 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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The short answer is that it's easy. When you try to create a party, it can be difficult to find people who are a good fit if not jerks altogether. Certain games have the auto-party builder, but what are the odds you're going to get paired with people who either significantly improve your progress towards your goal, or someone who is actually interesting? Fact is, odds are good you'll get stuck with someone incompetent or boring, if not a total jerk.

And there are a lot of players who deal with people all day and the worst thing in the world sounds like working with more people in their off time. They like the idea of the social game, sometimes because they have fond memories of playing other MMOs, but 99% of the time, they don't actually want to be around other people. If their social experience was better, they'd probably feel differently. Bottom line, some people are up to the challenges of a highly social game, and some people aren't.

A big part of it is just the age of the audience. When we were young, we had all the energy in the world to play with people of all kinds. The playerbase is getting progressively older now and not all of them have that kind of social energy at the end of the day.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#6 Dec 15 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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1. Is FFXIV really going to follow the quest based formulae that seems to be so popular (at least amongst developers - see SWTOR) these days.

I like the quest part, but I hope they don't go overboard with being able to just do quests for gear/levels. I hope parties are highly encouraged so I don't get the same single player rpg feeling that I go with games like GW2.


2. Does anyone else still prefer 'The Grind', to quest style progression?

If by grind, you mean the old FFXI killing the same things for hours on end to gain a level, then for me thats a toss up. I think either way your going to have a grind. Either a grind of just killing, or grinding quest after quest there will always be that gind and someone will complain about it.


3. Do you think that done are the days of pleasing the majority - lets specialise our MMO to a particular player base (it seems to me that nothing fits all/majority any longer).

Devs will always try to get the highest mix that will give them most players in return.


4. What are the incentives to party based levelling (I worry that a little more EXP won't be enough to encourage this type of play en mass - what's the point in an MMO if its just played solo?)

I think the little more xp will actually go a long way in getting people to group. If people can get to endgame faster they will. I hope parting is the norm outside soloing, I hated GW2 for the fact that I can solo everything except dungeons. Parting will build a community, and bring people together.
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#7 Dec 15 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
I don't understand why anyone want to play an MMO solo. There is no challenge or serious story to be had, just performing the same actions again and again and watching number goes up. But I guess some people really are entertained by the equivalent of Progress Quest...

Four words: Connections, Ego , Resources, no definite ending

People in general wish to communicate & form bonds on some level. To form connections, people must experience similar things or feelings with another person. Mmos give hours upon hours of shared experiences to converse over. It's the forced interactions that make someone want to solo. We all got schedules, those schedules differ from someone elses. A soloer can perform activities at their leisure and still bond with like minded individuals.

Most people want to feel good about themselves. And most people have a barrier of comfort. When someone pushes against those areas. Usually an ego takes over. I find it amusing when someone becomes aggressive due to ego. Ok so they're externally validated somewhat like all of us. But what do you need to prove to a stranger over the internet? Who's tougher? Smarter? What do you gain? Ego is another culprit of the solo mind.

The fight over resources, we see it in real life and in game. The belief that everything is scarce and if we don't take it now, it will disappear. Usually things are abundant, but due to schedules or egos we fight. Over camps, who enters instance first, who gets X drop first, who has seniority in the group, it goes on and on. This is where the hardwork mentality drives one to solo. If I work relentlessly on this goal alone, no one else can affect my reward.

Mmos are never truly beaten, but single player games are. If someone told me I could play my favorite rpgs of all time. And it would have ever expanding content & worlds. Would I play it? This never ending content is why some people solo in mmos. They can solo, duo, or party? They can form connections solo?

I group and solo as I see fit.
I dictate the flow of the game, the game doesn't dictate the flow of me.
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#8 Dec 15 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
Mince wrote:
2. Does anyone else still prefer 'The Grind', to quest style progression?


I would really like to see a quest-based leveling system that nearly requires some kind of group to complete. We are a band of adventurers working together to stop Bahamut and bring an era of peace and prosperity to Eorzea, so why would we all go our seperate ways, strengthen ourselves alone, and then "see ya there at the spot yo!"? It's why the Pro-Bowl is so boring to watch... I also feel that endgame should not be the only time people group up. Seems backwards to have everyone do their own thing on the weaker stuff, then expect they'll rock a super-hard dungeon and boss fight. MMO's are supposed to (or at least used to) be a social experience. A system of playing on your own except for endgame content leads to a community of "I'll call you when I need you" and "What can you do for me now?"

I despised the leveling system in FFXI. LVL 70 - 75 on WHM had to be the most boring thing I can remember in recent memory. I think, like many on these threads have stated before, that it was just a time-sink to add "longevity" to the game. I also played DC Universe Online where the only way to level was doing quests that usually had something to do with the story (to be fair, they did have decades worth of comic book stories to pull from and tie into the game.) There were mobs that you could kill for exp, but it was comparable to the amount of gil most items NPC'd for in FFXI: miniscule. That system got me a little excited, until I learned that I could just roll an Ice character and plow through everything solo in a few days.

A system that combines killing mobs and completing quests in groups could work for everyone. Maybe it could take some tips from the Borderlands 2 scaling system, where more people in the game/group = harder mobs. For "casual" and solo players, they can go kill mobs for, say, 100xp per kill and get a 500xp bonus at the end. Alternatively, I could put a group of 2-6 people together and get some quest that gives us increased xp per kill based on the collective level of the group. We'll still have a slightly faster time/kill ratio at increased xp/kill and then at the end we receive a 1500xp bonus (just using numbers here for example sake.)

This would give solo players a way to level, though at a slower pace. Party-seekers would also get their party content, would get significantly faster leveling. And we would all get some lore thrown in for our efforts.
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#9 Dec 15 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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What I don't get is that quest grinding is just like your typical exp grinding. You're doing the same thing over and over again for prolonged periods of time. I played 11 when it was first released for PS2 and I played for three years. There was nothing fantastic about being a 60 Samurai sitting in Lower Jeuno waiting for someone, anybody to invite me so I can stand in another spot for 4-6 hours killing the same thing over and over again.

I understand that people meet one another through partying but I don't think that disappears with quest based leveling system. I've played through WoW and TERA and it's not rocket science to put a couple shouts out there asking if anybody wants to duo/trio some quests together. The community still exists in the grind from 1-50, you're just not demanding it out of people. If you don't like leveling alone, then don't! Find a linkshell, make some friends and get to questing with your new buddy. And all the indication is that quest leveling will only be the PRIMARY form of leveling, not the only way of leveling.

And as for the development and mastery of your class that's something that'll inevitably happen at the end game. You will not be able to solo the end-game, you will have to form relationships and you will have to master your class to be effective.

I just don't understand this fear so many people have. But if you are really-really worried about not being able to find a community, create one. Or join one. In my signature is a link to a linkshell filled with legacy members and new players who will all start on a new server. We are creating the community we want in the game we want to play. Why the game needs to force that on people who may or may not want it is beyond me.
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#10 Dec 15 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
Why are so many people so die-hard insistent on being able to play alone for a large portion of the game? If you don't want to play with people, then why not play a console game?

"We're creating a game where you play with thousands of other people from around the world! You can talk to each other in real time, group up to defeat menacing creatures, craft products for each other, and even create your own sub-communities!"

"Awesome! I can do it alone too, right?"

That is beyond me.
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#11 Dec 15 2012 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it's a matter of what is or isn't beyond you. People have their own play style. I know plenty of players who get on MMOs and only craft. They login, go to a corner, and craft. For hours. That is beyond me, it's not something I do. But it's an MMO and the point of massive multiplayer game is something that offers a dynamic world that can be played by people with insanely different play styles.

I have a friend who plays the game in a way that I can still barely comprehend. He plays the auction house and he's really-really good at it. We played 11 together and the dude rolled in gil. He would follow trends of the AH and then buy items low predicting their resurgence and then sell them high. He had 1 class above 50, didn't craft, didn't gather just hung out and played the AH.

The point of all this is that an MMO shouldn't cater to just one type of player. Because it'll kill itself in the end. By having options for multiple different play style the MMO becomes less like a game and more like a society/community. Within each community there will countless of styles of play that make zero sense to other players. I for one enjoy the quest leveling systems, I enjoy them more when I can group up with friends or group up with strangers.

Not understanding should not equate to hatred or a push for the limitation of other peoples play style. It's the kind of train of thought that I will never understand.
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#12 Dec 15 2012 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Why are so many people so die-hard insistent on being able to play alone for a large portion of the game? If you don't want to play with people, then why not play a console game?

A lot of people probably just want to go at their own pace. All of the fond memories of partying in FFXI come to mind when you'd spend a couple hours getting a half decent group together, travel to the camp, do two pulls and suddenly the healer has to leave. I like to solo in MMOs because of real life commitments attacking me at random times but would definitely like more group content other than a 20 minute instance run at cap. ****, this is the second or third week my friends haven't been able to log in SWTOR or FFXI and I can't even get past the login screen before getting bored.
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#13 Dec 15 2012 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
FrostyIsShibby wrote:
I don't think it's a matter of what is or isn't beyond you. People have their own play style. I know plenty of players who get on MMOs and only craft. They login, go to a corner, and craft. For hours. That is beyond me, it's not something I do. But it's an MMO and the point of massive multiplayer game is something that offers a dynamic world that can be played by people with insanely different play styles.

I have a friend who plays the game in a way that I can still barely comprehend. He plays the auction house and he's really-really good at it. We played 11 together and the dude rolled in gil. He would follow trends of the AH and then buy items low predicting their resurgence and then sell them high. He had 1 class above 50, didn't craft, didn't gather just hung out and played the AH.

The point of all this is that an MMO shouldn't cater to just one type of player. Because it'll kill itself in the end. By having options for multiple different play style the MMO becomes less like a game and more like a society/community. Within each community there will countless of styles of play that make zero sense to other players. I for one enjoy the quest leveling systems, I enjoy them more when I can group up with friends or group up with strangers.

Not understanding should not equate to hatred or a push for the limitation of other peoples play style. It's the kind of train of thought that I will never understand.


I didn't suggest that there should be one style of play, I just said I don't understand it. My previous post outlined a system that would cater to all play styles in terms of leveling and experiencing "battle" content. You could solo and get good exp, but your rewards would progressively get better when your group got better.

The big problem is that it is extremely hard to set up content for both styles. Like I said before, I personally hated the FFXI system for leveling, but was also disheartened by the DCUO solo style. Developers will often only gear the game towards one style, unfortunately. I would love to see them institute a crafting system similar to synthesis in XI, where crafting in a group could get you even better rewards, but by no means gimps it going solo. I haven't seen a game do this well though, and I don't expect to any time soon.

As far as people trying to force their style of play on others, I find it hypocritical of people who want to play solo accusing people who want a more traditional group style of play. Like I said before, I haven't seen a game integrate the two particularly well, so why should I (wanting a more group oriented style) have to let that go so that someone else (who wants to play solo) can have their way? It works both ways, as of right now.
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Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#14 Dec 15 2012 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with the hypocrisy aspect of forcing people to play and obviously our opinions differ on whose being hypocritical.

I can only disagree with your post anecdotally but when I played DCUO, I didn't have trouble forming parties. I agree the exp was too easy and you leveled too fast and that quickly ended the experience because the end-game content was pretty terrible. But every time I was working on a mission and see other people in the same mission and I'd party with them.

I can only speak of what I've seen and heard about ARR but it seems like they're doing a pretty good job of balancing between quests, dungeon grinding and party grinding. It'll be a wait and see for everyone.
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#15 Dec 15 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
On hypocrisy, both sides are guilty and I don't deny that. If they can put together a truly balanced effort, then we all /hurray and the conversation ends. If not, well, you know where my loyalties lie Smiley: sly

On DCUO and grouping, it's true that actually getting into the group was easy if there was someone there. What was frustrating was once you got in, everyone just seemed to zerg on their own. At least that's how it worked on the Blood Will Run server. If there had been some sort of party strategy element to it, could've been fun.
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Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

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Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#16 Dec 16 2012 at 2:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Mince wrote:
Hello Zam peeps,

A but long winded, so just skip to the questions if TLDR,

FFXI was my first MMO. I stopped playing in 2009 when my LS started to break apart and I had other things to occupy my mind. I did play FFXI for few months back in early 2012 but found the community somewhat less homely, although I accept that given the time I may have found a happy home.

What I liked about FFXI was the sense of community and the fact that you had to work together to achieve anything. This was something that the entire player recognised/recognized and there wasn't really much solo play appart from levelling BST. To be honest, I really enjoyed the party based grinding and the 'flow' of playing my particular job at the time - just trying to optimise my time by playing as efficiently as possible (chaining as fast as poss) is something I found quite challenging.

I would really like to think that FFXIV is an extension to this, but one which introduces improvements in the user interface, content and combat dynamics amongst other things. I really don't want to play another 'WOW clone', but am slightly concerned about the comment on Lodestone that Level progression is primarily quest based. I don't know what incentives there are for party play other than perhaps some group related quests (which you could skip) and maybe some dungeons. In FFXI I really felt like I was learning my job when partied with others and doing my upmost at fulfilling a certain role as efficiently as possible - a marked difference between those who knew their job and those who leached.

I don't mean to slag off FFXIV in any way, but my questions are:

1. Is FFXIV really going to follow the quest based formulae that seems to be so popular (at least amongst developers - see SWTOR) these days.

2. Does anyone else still prefer 'The Grind', to quest style progression?

3. Do you think that done are the days of pleasing the majority - lets specialise our MMO to a particular player base (it seems to me that nothing fits all/majority any longer).

4. What are the incentives to party based levelling (I worry that a little more EXP won't be enough to encourage this type of play en mass - what's the point in an MMO if its just played solo?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hardcore player by any means (perhaps 5-10 hours a week and would welcome some casual play) but being able to solo to max level in a few weeks just seems like a flash in the pan to me. Personally, I would consider myself a casual gamer, but one which likes the idea of having to work really hard to get to the same level as those with more time.

Mince

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 9:36pm by Mince


1. most likely.

2. the majority has spoken, and they have said grinding is not fun. tbh, its not very challenging either. it was when we were all newbies but after you kill your ten thousandth crab, i think its safe to say that the challenge is gone. I personally think instanced dungeons are a pretty good substitute for the grind; its objective based grind.

3. imo the future of mmos is not about pleasing the majority, but about finding niche markets. many companies haven't realized this yet. they still think they have to provide "one game to rule them all". I'm afraid SE is one of those companies. I don't think they understand that Final Fantasy is a niche market in and of itself, at least as far as the mmo world goes.

4. this is a tough one. group bonding through shared suffering (or challenge, if you prefer) certainly works to build community, but gamers have largely rejected the notion as archaic and masochistic. I haven't seen a game approach this issue effectively from another angle yet. Personally i think it may be time to revisit the sandbox model of mmo. With the more advanced tech these days, it should be possible to make an engaging, player-driven virtual world that isn't tedious or boring. Player cities, for instance, would be a welcome step in the right direction for almost any mmo looking to cultivate a richer community.

Minecraft has players working together to build their own worlds. Rift has some pretty substantial player housing, although i understand thats more of a solo thing. . EVE online has quite the thriving community (although this is a niche game, so back to #3), but i've never played it and have no idea how it works. From what little i understand, it works because most of the control is in the players' hands.

Also, FFXI is still there, and the community is still thriving to some extent. If you don't have an established group of friends in that game, it may be worth your while to invest some time in developing one. Or you may just have to do some research; I'm sure there are games out there that require deep player interaction, but I'm afraid that model tends to limit casual play. I'm just not sure if its possible to have our cake and eat it too in this case.



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#17 Dec 16 2012 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Why are so many people so die-hard insistent on being able to play alone for a large portion of the game? If you don't want to play with people, then why not play a console game?

"We're creating a game where you play with thousands of other people from around the world! You can talk to each other in real time, group up to defeat menacing creatures, craft products for each other, and even create your own sub-communities!"

"Awesome! I can do it alone too, right?"

That is beyond me.


I don't think its that simple, or maybe it is and you just need to broaden your focus a bit. For instance, I don't always want to have to talk to a bunch of people or work with them to do things ingame. Sometimes, that makes the game feel more like, well...work. XI is a great example of this. Sometimes i just want to do my own thing, BUT, I still like having other people around me, so that the world doesn't feel dead.

I remember playing Morrowind and loving it (ofc), but also feeling very lonely in the world. That was when I decided to give XI a try. Anyway, the reason I play, say, GW2, is because I can login and do my thing on my own terms. But there are people running around who I can choose to help, or not. And the important part is that the choice is my own, and once I make that choice, i just jump in and help. No partying up, no waiting for X job, etc etc.

I enjoy Dark Souls for the same reason. Sometimes I just don't feel like typing to people. I still like interacting with them from time to time, but once again, its my choice. Conversely, I've often felt pressured to play a game like XI even when I don't really feel like it. Why? Other people.

I think part of this phenomena comes from MMO gamers growing up, getting jobs, forming deeper RL connections. all of these things can be draining, and when your game of choice ALSO starts to feel draining...well you know what happens next.


edit: bleh, I should really read the whole thread before posting. Now I look like I was parroting at least two people who already responded. derp. well at least we're all on the same page.

Edited, Dec 16th 2012 3:36am by Llester
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#18 Dec 16 2012 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I think what it boils down to is not that players don't want to have a social experience in their MMOs, but that in games today, there's just too great a risk that it's going to be frustrating instead of relaxing. The young gamer often has all the energy in the world to deal with the challenges of social interaction. The older gamer typically wants to unwind after a day of doing exactly that. Even with the ubiquity of the internet, smartphones, facebook and all, lots of young people feel more satisfied with the level of social interaction they're getting.

Even simple features like giving you the option to automatically party with people on your friend list can help encourage that social interaction. Game designers are rarely any sort of social media experts, and in that regard, they are failing to keep up with user expectations about how social interactions should be facilitated. The standard MMO social features are just not keeping up with the times, and too much is being taken for granted.
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#19 Dec 16 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I think what it boils down to is not that players don't want to have a social experience in their MMOs, but that in games today, there's just too great a risk that it's going to be frustrating instead of relaxing. The young gamer often has all the energy in the world to deal with the challenges of social interaction. The older gamer typically wants to unwind after a day of doing exactly that. Even with the ubiquity of the internet, smartphones, facebook and all, lots of young people feel more satisfied with the level of social interaction they're getting.

Even simple features like giving you the option to automatically party with people on your friend list can help encourage that social interaction. Game designers are rarely any sort of social media experts, and in that regard, they are failing to keep up with user expectations about how social interactions should be facilitated. The standard MMO social features are just not keeping up with the times, and too much is being taken for granted.



not entirely true.. Im an older gamer and I can deal with those challenges in my game. Its like the argument of how some MMOs feel more like work than fun and why would you wanna come home and do MORE work when you just done that already today? My answer to that would be... when Im at work Im not there because I WANT to be there Im there because I HAVE to be there (bills dont pay themselves so unless I wanna be on the streets I HAVE to do that everyday whether i want to/like it or not) whereas a certain game.. sure what Im doin may feel like a chore ta times but I dont mind doing that because now Im doing something I actually WANT to do.. I dont mind doing a chore if its a chore i LIKE doing and not one Im only doing because I HAVE too/because it MUST be done.
#20 Dec 16 2012 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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MMOs are also dealing with an older audience than they were a decade ago. When UO and DoaC and FFXI all hit, the "gaming generation" was in their late teens, twenties, or early to mid thirties at the latest. (Exceptions abound, of course - I know quite a few grandparents who play FFXI!) The audience now goes from late teens to the forties instead, and not all of us are capable of spending long stretches of time on a video game.

A game that appeals to casuals needs to permit them to log in, do a couple of quests, maybe get a level, and log off feeling accomplished. It's much easier to do that in solo play than in group place. Conversely, on holidays or weekends, when they have more time to spend, they can join and group and do more difficult group oriented content that's going to take a few hours.

One guy in XI said he and his wife had an agreement for the game, in which FFXI replaced the old "bowling night" so many husbands in America reserved over the last century. He was allowed to play uninterrupted on that one night only, and go HNMing or do whatever.
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#21 Dec 17 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
MMOs are also dealing with an older audience than they were a decade ago. When UO and DoaC and FFXI all hit, the "gaming generation" was in their late teens, twenties, or early to mid thirties at the latest. (Exceptions abound, of course - I know quite a few grandparents who play FFXI!) The audience now goes from late teens to the forties instead, and not all of us are capable of spending long stretches of time on a video game.

A game that appeals to casuals needs to permit them to log in, do a couple of quests, maybe get a level, and log off feeling accomplished. It's much easier to do that in solo play than in group place. Conversely, on holidays or weekends, when they have more time to spend, they can join and group and do more difficult group oriented content that's going to take a few hours.


I think this thread has acurately portrayed why I loved FFXI (during high school days) and the above quote perfectly described what I would hope for in a new MMO. Simply, time is a much more valuable asset now, than it was 8 years ago when the biggest concern was how to fit an Sky farming jaunt around work/school.

That being said, the WoWism of all new games is frustrating. I would MUCH chill out in Jeuno for a bit and get a great party together then go chain mobs for a few hours when I have the chance, as opposed to run from A to B to C back to A back to B etc. etc. to complete a quest for 5 hours. After playing GW2 for a few month, and SWTOR on and off since launch, I can say I haven't made one lasting friendship the way the FFXI forced you too.

Heck, you found a good player in FFXI that had a vaguely similar schedule as you, and you would hunt them down to go xp'ing, questing, AF etc together. It was a truely social experience. Whereas now, ppl just shout for a dungeon or a flashpoint then everyone goes their own way. I believe that it's the ability to work together, and the true incentive to help one another thats been missing lately, and pushing a quest onry system furthers the lack of strong social cohesion.
#22 Dec 17 2012 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree, though let's not paint a false dichotomy here. There's no reason that XPing can't be quest-based AND party-based, which is what I would have liked to see. Assaults were sort of to that effect in FFXI, and the only problem with them was that there weren't enough of them (and they didn't capitalize on open-world play at all).

But that was one of if not THE main pitfalls of FFXI... so much of the really FUN content that required grouping also gave you almost no XP. More often, it made you lose it.
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#23 Dec 17 2012 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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That's so true Kachi. The sky/sea god runs in the early going were so painfull, especially so for us tanks. As a PLD, b4 shells got efficient 2/3 KO's a run wouldnt be a surprise. Back then, the top XP point was still weapons, and no PLD would be let into a wood/mana burn pt -.-;

Also, I fully support being able to either solo or party your way towards decent XP rewards, I just think that Party play needs to be absolutely littered with incentives, so that people will actually consider it again. If I can go solo 3k/hour of xp our PT for 3.5k/hour... the choice is easy, as I can solo a similar rate and don't have to apologize about running to the washroom. But, If I can solo 3k/hour or PT for 5-10k/hour+perhaps get decent signet based rewards etc.... xp Pt's will spring back up quite rapidly.

#24 Dec 17 2012 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't get to read everyone's posts on here, but I know that from what I have read, quest based leveling will be a pretty big part, especially early on. But it sounds like they are going to push grouping to do dungeons/raids (whatever you want to call them) as a way to meet people and level. If they do it right, this could be a nice way to blend the two worlds together. Start off early with dungeons that group you together with a small group to accomplish a goal... and build up until endgame when you need a solid group of 8+ to roam through a zone to make it to a boss fight.

Now, I am not endorsing massive grouping (I still have Dynamis nightmares from runs 7 years ago lol... mainly with gathering for 45 minutes prior to going in for 2-3 hours...), but I do think any successful MMO needs a solid way to force people to group together to accomplish a common goal.. and find a way to reward everyone that participates in some way... nothing worse than doing something for 2 years 'for the LS' only to have the LS break the moment the leader gets their relic weapon and all his friends sell off the remaining currency to sport all the best AH gear money can buy... leaving 20+ people wondering why they just wasted 3-5 hours a night, 2 days a week for 2 years...
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#25 Dec 17 2012 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Even though this thread has been going for a little while, I want to jump in and add my opinions.

1. Is FFXIV really going to follow the quest based formulae that seems to be so popular (at least amongst developers - see SWTOR) these days.
Yes, but I think people are focusing too much on this aspect. There are still monsters around for you to kill, should you decide to do so. If you have friends online, you can group up with them for a traditional exp party or do the quests/leves. I remember when these were added to FFXI--I ignored them entirely, I don't even remember what they're called. The point is that there is a choice to complete these instead of being forced into the traditional party route that had so many complaining in FFXI.

2. Does anyone else still prefer 'The Grind', to quest style progression?
Yes. I only prefer it because I'm familiar with it. I see these quests/leves in FFXIV and I automatically imagine myself ignoring them. I'm not used to them; I'm rather adverse to them, actually.

3. Do you think that done are the days of pleasing the majority - lets specialise our MMO to a particular player base (it seems to me that nothing fits all/majority any longer).
No. I'm sure there will be aspects in FFXIV that please the majority--that is, the most vocal among us who care enough to be heard. There is no way to please everyone or "fit all" as you put it. No matter what S-E does, someone will not be happy with them for this or that reason.

4. What are the incentives to party based levelling (I worry that a little more EXP won't be enough to encourage this type of play en mass - what's the point in an MMO if its just played solo?)
This is a subjective question. The main incentive for me, as a mage/healer-type of player, is to see that I'm skilled enough at my job to prevent wipes. Playing solo is too self-reliant--you know your limits, you know how to push those limits and you are the only one responsible for your success/death. When party play comes into the picture, more variables are added. More dynamics, more possibilities, more chances to test your skills. I take much pride in being able to adapt to any situation and see my group come out on top thanks to my assistance, especially as WHM or BRD. This was FFXI's main selling-point for me: the stresses and pressures of being a highly-sought after job and still doing well. If FFXIV's party play can still give me that sense of achievement, I will choose it over solo quests any day.
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#26 Dec 17 2012 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I want something to do when I can't get a group, it would be nice to quest or something in the down time.

But for real leveling, I'd love to have the mob grind back. They could easily expand on that concept with bigger and better skillchains, exp chain, more diverse mobs, and better campgrounds/dungeons.

In 1.0 we used to grind a lot, and it was very, very fun to have that feeling back. I miss researching the bonus modifiers on various mobs, figuring out where to find them, staking out a good spot to camp, and spending a few hours grinding. Having a good LS helps that out a lot. But in the solo time it would be nice if there were places to quest, things to craft, and houses to play with. The only real issue 1.0 had for me was the lack of diversity in the world. It was a real step back from FFXI.

A hybrid system would get my vote. I would hate to see the grind disappear altogether in 2.0 - even 1.0 had that part right, you just had to do your research (which to me is the hallmark of any good FF game). It's a great option that sets the FF MMO apart from the rest.
#27 Dec 18 2012 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I want something to do when I can't get a group, it would be nice to quest or something in the down time.


This statement makes me think of GW2 classes. All of the classes are (very roughly) equal and there are no healers. (There isn't really a party dynamic to combat either, but I don't consider that a foregone conclusion). In theory, you could easily succeed with a party of six decent people with no regard for what they're playing as. In reality, that effect is sort of wasted because of the lack of party content.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Dec 18 2012 at 7:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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lthompson wrote:
I want something to do when I can't get a group, it would be nice to quest or something in the down time.


Guildleve's Smiley: smile
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#29 Dec 20 2012 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
lthompson wrote:
I want something to do when I can't get a group, it would be nice to quest or something in the down time.


Guildleve's Smiley: smile


once people start leveling second jobs, and having run out of quests to get exp for said jobs, i'm pretty sure we'll see them doing levequests, dungeons, Hamlet (?), Behest(?), and/or XI-style grinding to fill the gaps. It seems to me that the strategy is to spread the exp out amongst these different areas.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. In a sense, the quest-based exp model of MMO relies on the one-class-per-character system. The altoholic system. And sometimes i think that system is a big part of why so many XI fans hate theme park MMOs. I know I prefer all of my accomplishments to be tied to one character, and I'm betting i'm not alone in this.

I can't think of a quest-based-exp MMO that also allows multiple(all) classes on a single character, but I'd like to think yoshi's team is smart enough to understand that a unique system like this means that the quests will run dry at some point. I'm thinking there will be many viable options for exp for that reason, and also because they must know that a portion of their fanbase prefers the grind.


Edited, Dec 20th 2012 3:27am by Llester
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#30 Dec 20 2012 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. In a sense, the quest-based exp model of MMO relies on the one-class-per-character system. The altoholic system. And sometimes i think that system is a big part of why so many XI fans hate theme park MMOs. I know I prefer all of my accomplishments to be tied to one character, and I'm betting i'm not alone in this.

I can't think of a quest-based-exp MMO that also allows multiple(all) classes on a single character, but I'd like to think yoshi's team is smart enough to understand that a unique system like this means that the quests will run dry at some point. I'm thinking there will be many viable options for exp for that reason, and also because they must know that a portion of their fanbase prefers the grind.


For me, there's a two-fold problem with the "alt-based" game:
1) Anything that "forks" becomes restricted content that can only be experienced on another character. In a genre which suffers from content deprivation, I think it's a bad idea to design content that isn't actually supposed to be done on a single character. I even felt that way about the starting nation quests in FFXIV.
2) It makes the content redundant. I don't want to play 100% of the game from square one just to experience the 20% that is different on a second playthrough.

As a sub-note, it can also make it a pain to shuffle resources from one character to another. Just a pet peeve. Nothing breaks all immersion for me quite like that.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Dec 20 2012 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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The "starting nation" quests on XI were never locked to a single character. You could switch nations at any time for a small gil fee even when I started back in 2004-ish. About the only thing you missed was the "brief flash of insight on local characters" 30 second micro tutorial for each city, in which you learned a teensy bit about that NPC's personality. (Like, Nana Mihgo demanding you pay her for her help.) I had all three nations at Rank 10 many years ago, long before it became really easy. (****, I had to re-do my friggin outposts warp quests three times because I nation hopped so much!)

Everything else related to city missions in FFXI has always been doable on a single character. About the only quest I can think of that is a locked out "either/or" is the different subjob quests in Mhaura and Selbina, and the only difference between them is the items the NPCs request and maybe a single line of dialogue.
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#32 Dec 20 2012 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
The "starting nation" quests on XI were never locked to a single character. You could switch nations at any time for a small gil fee even when I started back in 2004-ish. About the only thing you missed was the "brief flash of insight on local characters" 30 second micro tutorial for each city, in which you learned a teensy bit about that NPC's personality. (Like, Nana Mihgo demanding you pay her for her help.) I had all three nations at Rank 10 many years ago, long before it became really easy. (****, I had to re-do my friggin outposts warp quests three times because I nation hopped so much!)

Everything else related to city missions in FFXI has always been doable on a single character. About the only quest I can think of that is a locked out "either/or" is the different subjob quests in Mhaura and Selbina, and the only difference between them is the items the NPCs request and maybe a single line of dialogue.


XIV=! XI
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#33 Dec 20 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
catwho wrote:
The "starting nation" quests on XI were never locked to a single character. You could switch nations at any time for a small gil fee even when I started back in 2004-ish. About the only thing you missed was the "brief flash of insight on local characters" 30 second micro tutorial for each city, in which you learned a teensy bit about that NPC's personality. (Like, Nana Mihgo demanding you pay her for her help.) I had all three nations at Rank 10 many years ago, long before it became really easy. (****, I had to re-do my friggin outposts warp quests three times because I nation hopped so much!)

Everything else related to city missions in FFXI has always been doable on a single character. About the only quest I can think of that is a locked out "either/or" is the different subjob quests in Mhaura and Selbina, and the only difference between them is the items the NPCs request and maybe a single line of dialogue.


XIV=! XI


Nevermind, totally mis-read that. Smiley: lol
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#34 Dec 30 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why do some people want to be alone? Perhaps they're introverted, like me. Maybe they just hate people, and like MMOs for the open-ended quality. Maybe they're awkward or shy. Maybe they just don't have the time to muck around with others. They might have been burned in the past. There are plenty of reasons. Do they not deserve to have fun and experience all of the game?

Personally, I -refuse- to play a game that isn't solo or duo friendly (my husband and I play). I have tried grouping, and I hate it. It's boring waiting around for people, there are always personal fights, nobody wants to strategize, nobody wants to roleplay seriously. FFXI had the added problem of "comply or be kicked". Maybe I don't want to min/max my character to fit some arbitrary forced game dynamic. Maybe I want to play a Dragoon because it's my fantasy to be a Dragoon in a fantasy world. It's sad that a game that ran the gamut of classes put so many things in the way of easily enjoying those classes. I pray FFXIV doesn't do that same. I don't want to have to be top-level in a huge group to have my beautiful Dragoon armor. I don't want the help of some over-level character to open a quest and complete it. Everything should be doable by ANY party size. Don't penalize people who are asocial. We're a minority, too, like every other pushed-around minority. When do we get some respect?

Everyone has different needs. A lot of people now just want to play with one or two friends. I think TOR was smart for limiting party size to four.

And, as my brother-in-law once said, "Who wants to hear the story about the eight guys who slew the dragon?" Hero stories are often about one hero against death-defying odds. Sure, Final Fantasy is usually ensemble, but it's SMALL ensemble. Never a huge group of six or eight or ten--with the exception of FFT. That's a completely different style of game, but I don't think it fits the MMO mindset.

There should be benefits for party people and group-minded community people. Give people linkshells and all the social stuff you need. But when it comes to CONTENT, don't penalize people who might have social issues or personal preferences. Or time restraints. If I tried to play with my online friends, I'd only get about an hour or two a week they could spare. You'd never get through a game if you were limited like that.
#35 Dec 30 2012 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Why do some people want to be alone? Perhaps they're introverted, like me. Maybe they just hate people, and like MMOs for the open-ended quality. Maybe they're awkward or shy. Maybe they just don't have the time to muck around with others. They might have been burned in the past. There are plenty of reasons. Do they not deserve to have fun and experience all of the game?

Personally, I -refuse- to play a game that isn't solo or duo friendly (my husband and I play). I have tried grouping, and I hate it. It's boring waiting around for people, there are always personal fights, nobody wants to strategize, nobody wants to roleplay seriously. FFXI had the added problem of "comply or be kicked". Maybe I don't want to min/max my character to fit some arbitrary forced game dynamic. Maybe I want to play a Dragoon because it's my fantasy to be a Dragoon in a fantasy world. It's sad that a game that ran the gamut of classes put so many things in the way of easily enjoying those classes. I pray FFXIV doesn't do that same. I don't want to have to be top-level in a huge group to have my beautiful Dragoon armor. I don't want the help of some over-level character to open a quest and complete it. Everything should be doable by ANY party size. Don't penalize people who are asocial. We're a minority, too, like every other pushed-around minority. When do we get some respect?

Everyone has different needs. A lot of people now just want to play with one or two friends. I think TOR was smart for limiting party size to four.


I understand your argument and it has been brought up many times before. People want to play casually now, whether it's due to them being shy, asocial, time constricted, hate people, whatever. I can accept that there are people out there that would like to do that, and those people have a plethora of games to choose from.

You speak of people being asocial and being the "minority", but let's be real here... There are quite a few awkward/asocial people that play online video games. Also, almost every game being made these days is aimed at you people. No one is out there making a game geared towards min/max hardcore players, at least that I know of. We're relegated to a lot of games that have been around for a while already. So please don't come in here acting like casuals get pushed around by the elitists.

Quote:
Who wants to hear the story about the eight guys who slew the dragon?


I always looked at it as "That one guy killed that dragon all by himself?" I think the fantasy immersion goes down when my lone Dragoon can destroy a giant dragon, turtle, werewolf, etc and hardly break a sweat. Don't get me wrong, I want some solo content in the game, even a healthy amount of it, but I don't want the bulk of the awesome endgame to be "You can solo it, or try to do it with a group at a harder difficulty." It takes away a large portion of people who just won't deal with it when another option is available.

I am a guy who works in a medical office with 14 other women. They're older (45+ in most cases, I'm 26), single or divorced and insist on playing games all day. I'm extremely extroverted, but I spend all day going to work and keeping to myself because they drive me crazy. I look forward to coming home and getting into my fantasy world and hooking up with some people to slay some mean green dragon machines. My reason for why I play the way I do is just as valid as yours, but my play-style is the one being encroached on, so don't talk to me about being pushed around.

tl;dr
Let's give up this argument and realize that things are changing and we're going to have to find some way to deal with each other. That means hopefully they will put in content for both of us in a semi-balanced way, not discarding one or the other like developers usually do.
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#36 Dec 30 2012 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I want something to do when I can't get a group, it would be nice to quest or something in the down time.


This statement makes me think of GW2 classes. All of the classes are (very roughly) equal and there are no healers. (There isn't really a party dynamic to combat either, but I don't consider that a foregone conclusion). In theory, you could easily succeed with a party of six decent people with no regard for what they're playing as. In reality, that effect is sort of wasted because of the lack of party content.


Funny that everyone seemed to focus on that one initial statement. I'm a party leveler primarily. Just saying that a more diverse range of solo content (whether it actually gets you good exp or not) isn't bad for the dreaded 1hr wait times that occasionally accompany group leveling. I sincerely hope there is an option to mob grind, just like FFXIV - maybe with a more diverse range of pulls and more unique tactics on each. Not many people took advantage, but "camps" were alive an well in XIV, it just took a bit or research to find good mobs with the right bonus XP modifiers. In 1.0 I was more than happy to do the side questlines, work on crafting, do some leves, or work on an alt job while waiting, but I think broadening that base would have been nice.

I hate "!" and "?" as much as the next guy. FFXI really was onto something with the mission system and the seeming "randomness" of the NPC quests. Something in me like talking to everyone in town, seeing what they offer, and finding mysterious clues. I also think 1.0 was onto something with the leves, more diversity would have been an order though. I really hate that we are moving to a hub system in 2.0.

I'm one of those hoping for 1.0 with greater world diversity and a better UI. Otherwise I loved the game - but sadly that's probably not what we're getting. Either way, I'm on board for 2.0.
#37 Dec 30 2012 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Hrm, I honestly have no idea what the context of those statements were.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 9:47am by Kachi
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#38 Jan 02 2013 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually, let me edit this.

I want to emphasize again: I do not think that extraverted, community-loving people should be shunned. I just feel that, like TOR, the meat of the game, all of its side quests and crafting, should be available and attainable by players of every persuasion. I prefer the idea of rewards, challenges, and bonuses increasing with party size. That's just and fair. It also gives people a motivation to party, if they were on the fence, and they're goal-oriented and want to get to the top faster. I don't mind content like Flashpoints and Operations (to continue the TOR comparison), because I find them rather boring, but party-minded people love 'em. S'fine by me.

I can't recall where I read it, but when they implemented the job system in 1.0, one of the devs essentially said that the iconic classes were primarily geared toward party-levelers, and that small groupers and soloers could get by on the basic jobs. I thought that was the most disheartening bit of news I'd ever read. I was so excited when I found out the job system was coming to XIV. It rekindled my interest.

Social inclinations do not indicate level of dedication to the franchise or MMOs. My husband and I play as much as the average party-leveler, perhaps more. We get there slower, but by God, we try to get there. Gaming is our primary hobby, and being able to share that is great. That's all I'm asking. I've played Final Fantasy since I saw the spread in Nintendo Power magazine (I had one of the first subscriptions, apparently. They let you know that kind of thing, back then.)

We'd always had an on-again-off-again affair with XI. In the beginning, we played a whole year and only managed to get to level 30, then discovered the job quests were far too difficult to obtain on our own, and we quit, saddened by all our efforts being flung in our faces as essentially useless. Then they added the dedication bands, and we thought that would help. Then we were harassed in public for not having high level sub-jobs and for roleplaying in the "Say" channel. The XI community was not friendly to people of a different play style. Very niche, very hardcore, very party-based.

Then we came back to it last year, in the lead up to XIV, wanting to get in the spirit of the FF online franchise. The field manuals made life a thousand times easier. XP was more generous. We could achieve things and nobody bothered us anymore. I thought all of these changes were in anticipation of XIV, and I suppose in some ways, they were. I finally got to be a Dragoon. He finally got to be a Paladin.

I just hope the devs keep that spirit alive. I don't want to crunch anybody's enjoyment. I just read little things here and there that make me nervous, is all.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 7:09am by nerdessence
#39 Jan 04 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Hi everyone, I'm new. This topic interested me so I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

I think that if you played FFXI or any other such MMO 8+ years ago, like I did, then unfortunately for us all our "generation" has come to a close. No longer do we have the time in our adulthood to do the things we loved back then ( well most of us anyway ). I think this applies with FFXIV as well. I was reading alot of comments on here about time constraints based more or less on the decisions made by the developers. I guess this is true to some extent for some, but in the end... y'know, those years have come and gone for us. All we can really do now is pave the way for the "new" generation of MMO lovers by giving them our experience/feedback and just do what we can with what time we have available to us in adulthood. There are those who, 8-ish years ago, were still an adult, so this doesnt apply so much to you ^^ God I sound old. I'm only 27 ><

Nice to meet you :)
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#40 Jan 04 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Im sure we all love the social aspect of XI, but unfortunately for many this was hinderance. As a matter of fact, there were probably many more who wanted to be mean, talk @*#$, and pvp other players on the field... hence WoW was born. To balance everything out with solo questing, group exp parties, intancing, etc.. would mean catching lightning in a bottle. Even WoW with all its subscribers couldnt get the perfect balance formula correct. It simply did it right for the greater good and took off with it.

As a result, WoW created a sub par social aspect and an open world that was mainly background noise to the instances, raids, and battlegrounds that became its driving point. Collaboration at best was finding a 10 man or 25 man operation ready to get at each others' throats if a run required more than an hour to complete. I want this to be avoided, but in order to draw in a broader audience i'm afraid that ARR will have to accomodate the 'immaturity', impatience, and 'beligerence' of the majority of MMO gamers out there.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 5:25pm by balishag
#41 Jan 04 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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GW2 nailed a few social things but ultimately missed the ball.

In GW2 the grind is hidden well. The pace is right and you're grouping and ungrouping in a fluid fashion all while progressing. There really are no bad social encounters (in the world) because you are healing each other and helping each other.

However the downside is that it is all anonymous.

There is no connection to the other player, other than them being a helpful "Other."

In a system like FFXI you knew your role and you worked (emphasis on worked) together.

To get the best of both worlds I think a "dungeon finder like" type party system would have to be put in place. Solos can quest and grind if they want. Formed parties (usually a static) can grind on harder mobs and get crazy EXP. Either through hard versions of the same quests or steamroll through normal quests but get low exp.

If you're a casual and want to group you'll have to join the "dungeon finder" system. It would basically be a queue that will ask you if you want to travel to the "grinding" or "quest" area then you haphazardly learn the systems. The reward would have to be good enough so that you work together. In this case even though you're casual you'd have access to the same rewards as a party built by friends.

This is no different from how FFXI was in the beginning other than creating a easier system to run groups. You could still have the old seek flag if you like, but players forced together or not will still play the same.

Also only having one character in the world (and having smallish worlds) will make sure that name recognition gets around and there should be harder Genkai like quests to build community morale as well. But maybe with higher drop rates... :)
#42 Jan 05 2013 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
The short answer is that it's easy. When you try to create a party, it can be difficult to find people who are a good fit if not jerks altogether. Certain games have the auto-party builder, but what are the odds you're going to get paired with people who either significantly improve your progress towards your goal, or someone who is actually interesting? Fact is, odds are good you'll get stuck with someone incompetent or boring, if not a total jerk.

And there are a lot of players who deal with people all day and the worst thing in the world sounds like working with more people in their off time. They like the idea of the social game, sometimes because they have fond memories of playing other MMOs, but 99% of the time, they don't actually want to be around other people. If their social experience was better, they'd probably feel differently. Bottom line, some people are up to the challenges of a highly social game, and some people aren't.

A big part of it is just the age of the audience. When we were young, we had all the energy in the world to play with people of all kinds. The playerbase is getting progressively older now and not all of them have that kind of social energy at the end of the day.



Hmmm, I played XI for years and never had problems -daily- finding loads of new awesome people to party with. I'm absolutely amazed so many people have this preconceived notion.


@Kierk

I think the solution is easy. You make partying highly beneficial just as in XI, however you make it so more party combinations "work." In XI, you had to have a set cast of characters... i.e. Tank, Healer, 3 DDs, and Buff etc etc. In XIV, they should make it just like XI except make it so such stringent requirements aren't in place.

Edited, Jan 5th 2013 1:14am by je355804
#43 Jan 05 2013 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering I also played XI for years, I wouldn't call it a preconceived notion. It's a notion finely tuned by reality and experience. Sure, most players were ok, if they wanted to or were able to talk at all throughout the minutia of partying, but it really only takes one jerk to ruin a party.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Jan 06 2013 at 12:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Considering I also played XI for years, I wouldn't call it a preconceived notion. It's a notion finely tuned by reality and experience. Sure, most players were ok, if they wanted to or were able to talk at all throughout the minutia of partying, but it really only takes one jerk to ruin a party.


And you always found yourself tolerating said jerk because booting him and finding another to replace him was going to take FOREVER!

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#45 Jan 06 2013 at 4:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Considering I also played XI for years, I wouldn't call it a preconceived notion. It's a notion finely tuned by reality and experience. Sure, most players were ok, if they wanted to or were able to talk at all throughout the minutia of partying, but it really only takes one jerk to ruin a party.


And you always found yourself tolerating said jerk because booting him and finding another to replace him was going to take FOREVER!


/seacomup "expparty"

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or no {Invite to join party.}. {Thank you.}

/equip Head "Opo-opo Tiara"

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:40am by FilthMcNasty
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