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#1 Dec 18 2012 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I know this has been said a million times before, however I believe it to be so true that a million and one seems appropriate.

I understand all games must grow and evolve. I believe that to be some common ground on which we all stand.

However the word evolution can take on a variety of meanings. I think we can all likewise agree that FFXIV isn't going to be taking any gameplay element into a never seen before realm... Thus when we use the word evolve with regards to XIV we are simply referring to "different from XI."

Now we must ask ourselves, what should be different from XI... and at this point no mans opinion is greater than another's for the mere fact that they are nothing more than opinions.

With that said, to my point. If SE decides to "evolve" this game so that it resembles WoW more than XI, I wholeheartedly believe the game will fail or live in the land of perpetual mediocrity at best. Now, if they are smart, they will take the elements of XI we loved, such as the very deep sense of community (mostly due to a large requirement of joining a party) and combine this with a MIX of grinding and questing.... I believe we will have a winner. Now the partying doesn't need to be 6 people like it did in XI, and it also need not require ONLY 1 JOB ... like WTF IS A WMG etc etc.... I believe we all know this was ridiculous. Instead, there should be perhaps several jobs that can easily allow the party to survive a battle. Also, perhaps a nitpick of sorts, but I believe the battles should be of XI difficulty. It was entirely unfulfilling running in circles in XIV fighting mobs for 8 seconds... When something was accomplished in XI, even a small individual battle victory it felt like a true accomplishment. XIV felt like the Final Fantasy Mystic Quest version of some crack-addicted child born of a prostitute hook up between XI and WoW (this isn't a good thing.) I would say 75% XI and 25% WoW elements will get your base back... 75% WoW and 25% XI will have you wondering what went wrong.

At the end of the day, I could ramble for hours... The bottom line is that this game should NOT move to a SOLO dominant single player game masquerading as an MMO. This will end tragically for you and me (I'm looking at you SE.)
#2 Dec 18 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Give me the FFXI with juiced up graphics the ability to jump fresh servers old school group leveling a little less grindy and I'm set for another 5 years. That said, I bought FFXIV with the blind hopes that FFXIV would become my new "first love." That obviously failed and now I am hanging my hat on this.
#3 Dec 18 2012 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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They're trying to give it a new shot at getting a mass audience again, or at least it seems that way.

I don't think any game that wishes to be competitive in today's day and age will have old school group leveling in the way FFXI had it. I'm glad it doesn't. When FFXI came out, I had far more free time than I do these days. No more time for LFG for 4+ hours to get a full party of 6 and still have slow EXP if it wasn't perfect.

However, soloing is really boring too. I just want to party up with 2-3 friends and be able to get leveling done in a good pace. I think XIV 1.0 towards the end of its life did it right, and I hope that aspect carries over.
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#4 Dec 18 2012 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
They're trying to give it a new shot at getting a mass audience again, or at least it seems that way.

I don't think any game that wishes to be competitive in today's day and age will have old school group leveling in the way FFXI had it. I'm glad it doesn't. When FFXI came out, I had far more free time than I do these days. No more time for LFG for 4+ hours to get a full party of 6 and still have slow EXP if it wasn't perfect.

However, soloing is really boring too. I just want to party up with 2-3 friends and be able to get leveling done in a good pace. I think XIV 1.0 towards the end of its life did it right, and I hope that aspect carries over.


Group play shouldn't and does not have to require long LFG times, though. FFXI required it because certain class roles were required for a party to function. If you look at GW2, they did away with that staple (though at the same time, made partying nonexistant, which is one of the game's greatest weaknesses). Every class was self-sufficient. People are so in love with the trinity even though it's one of the worst things that ever happened to party-based play. There are many ways to promote party-based play without requiring that at least three unique roles be assembled before a party can take off (never mind other factors like level disparity and area access). And developments in social media have demonstrated just how much more fluid party building could be than sending an /invite or /tell to every other person with their flag up.
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#5 Dec 18 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I think what trips up a lot of designers is balancing things for level. I almost feel like they'd do a better job if they just used a very limited number of levels, like 10, and other progress points were used to drive the majority of the play. Much easier to design balanced and challenging experiences, and a lot less pickiness from players whether someone is 63 or 61.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#6 Dec 18 2012 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
I'm glad it doesn't. When FFXI came out, I had far more free time than I do these days. No more time for LFG for 4+ hours to get a full party of 6 and still have slow EXP if it wasn't perfect.


Not every game has to appeal to your current amount of free time, though. That's what I never understood: casual-oriented people have, indeed, almost every MMORPG aimed at their lifestyle, yet I often hear them complain at the mere chance of one appealing to an audience willing to invest a lot of time into a game.

I may not have anywhere near as much time as I did 7 years ago either, but that doesn't mean that I require every game to stoop down to accommodate an hour of hop-in, hop-out play; I still want extremely distant goals and lofty challenges.
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#7 Dec 18 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

I may not have anywhere near as much time as I did 7 years ago either, but that doesn't mean that I require every game to stoop down to accommodate an hour of hop-in, hop-out play; I still want extremely distant goals and lofty challenges.


I'm not sure why people feel that these two goals have to be mutually exclusive. IMO, MMOs in general are getting better at balancing the two extremes by designing content for both. Some of the recent changes to GW2 is a demonstration of that (search fractal gear and the surrounding controversy). Even WoW, which ofc is being used a model for ARR, had a lot of content for both.

Honestly, I seriously believe ARR has the potential to cater to both audiences. I'm not saying it won't lean towards one direction, but we've seen many indications even in 1.0's lifetime that this is a possibility. Look at the White Raven fight challenging on its own, ridiculous in extreme mode or whatever.

Tldr; stay tuned, ARR might be able to cater to all types of players better than you think.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 1:37pm by Onionthiefx
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#8 Dec 18 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Onionthiefx wrote:
Quote:

I may not have anywhere near as much time as I did 7 years ago either, but that doesn't mean that I require every game to stoop down to accommodate an hour of hop-in, hop-out play; I still want extremely distant goals and lofty challenges.


I'm not sure why people feel that these two goals have to be mutually exclusive. IMO, MMOs in general are getting better at balancing the two extremes by designing content for both. Some of the recent changes to GW2 is a demonstration of that (search fractal gear and the surrounding controversy). Even WoW, which ofc is being used a model for ARR, had a lot of content for both.

Honestly, I seriously believe ARR has the potential to cater to both audiences. I'm not saying it won't lean towards one direction, but we've seen many indications even in 1.0's lifetime that this is a possibility. Look at the White Raven fight challenging on its own, ridiculous in extreme mode or whatever.

Tldr; stay tuned, ARR might be able to cater to all types of players better than you think.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 1:37pm by Onionthiefx


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#9 Dec 18 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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If you think about it, there's only so many quests you can take before you run out of them on a character (unless they have 8 times the amount required to 50 that is which would be impressive) so I definitely think EXP parties will have its place.
#10 Dec 18 2012 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
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Onionthiefx wrote:
[quote]
ridiculous in extreme mode or whatever. [/sm][/i]


the fact that an MMO has difficulty settings scares me >.>
#11 Dec 18 2012 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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Onionthiefx wrote:
Even WoW, which ofc is being used a model for ARR, had a lot of content for both.



would you be so kinda as to name some of the things in WoW that take a long time to get as well as tell us how long it takes to get whatever thing in WoW takes the longest to get in the game?

Im dying to see examples of what WoW calls lofty/distant goals
#12 Dec 18 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Onionthiefx wrote:
Even WoW, which ofc is being used a model for ARR, had a lot of content for both.



would you be so kinda as to name some of the things in WoW that take a long time to get as well as tell us how long it takes to get whatever thing in WoW takes the longest to get in the game?

Im dying to see examples of what WoW calls lofty/distant goals

Getting a Legendary weapon is a lofty goal. Gearing out your character in a full set of current tier heroic gear is a lofty goal. Completing some of the achievements in the game are lofty goals.

The horse has been beaten into glue... Difficulty != time required to obtain.

You're baiting a fight that has been had a zillion times already with no clear winner. How long you spend chasing after your [insert nifty reward here] in whichever game you play is not a clear indication of how difficult it was, nor is it an indication of how much you enjoyed the journey. The point of games is to have fun.

No one will disagree that Blizzard put WoWs highest achievements closer to the majority of their players than XI did. Why would Blizzard want the majority of their players to be able to experience all of the content of their game? Why does SE want to keep many of their players from even attempting to participate in some of the content in their game?

je355804 wrote:
With that said, to my point. If SE decides to "evolve" this game so that it resembles WoW more than XI, I wholeheartedly believe the game will fail or live in the land of perpetual mediocrity at best.

This land of perpetual mediocrity... you realize that this is the land where XI currently resides now, don't you? So basically what you're saying is, damned if you do and damned if you don't?


Edited, Dec 18th 2012 7:13pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#13 Dec 18 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
I'm glad it doesn't. When FFXI came out, I had far more free time than I do these days. No more time for LFG for 4+ hours to get a full party of 6 and still have slow EXP if it wasn't perfect.


Not every game has to appeal to your current amount of free time, though. That's what I never understood: casual-oriented people have, indeed, almost every MMORPG aimed at their lifestyle, yet I often hear them complain at the mere chance of one appealing to an audience willing to invest a lot of time into a game.

I may not have anywhere near as much time as I did 7 years ago either, but that doesn't mean that I require every game to stoop down to accommodate an hour of hop-in, hop-out play; I still want extremely distant goals and lofty challenges.


You misunderstood my point. I'm not a casual-oriented player. I play for a few hours every night with the intent to get something done. FFXIV was great about getting an event together, doing an hour long raid a few times a night, or fighting a primal and getting a few pieces of loot by the end of the evening. If you wanted to EXP, you could do leves, group up with a few people and go out and kill stuff. If you wanted an 8-man spiritbond party to get you from level 40-50 you could do that and be hardcore. If you were like me who would rather just get things done, get a few friends kill mobs and still be somewhat efficient with 2-3 levels a night, that should work too.

I'm not saying I want to be on par with someone who plays 20-24 hours a day, but then again I'd rather not be sitting in town using all my time for the evening looking for a group that needs such a specific setup, either.
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#14 Dec 18 2012 at 11:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
I may not have anywhere near as much time as I did 7 years ago either, but that doesn't mean that I require every game to stoop down to accommodate an hour of hop-in, hop-out play; I still want extremely distant goals and lofty challenges.


I may be misunderstanding you here, but I never really understood why people considered it a bad thing to appeal to or accommodate players who don't have as much time to spend. I'm with you on wanting the lofty goals and difficult challenges. Why does adding casual content detract from the hardcore player's ability to enjoy the game? Conversely, how does including long-term goals and achievements take away from the casual player?
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#15DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 19 2012 at 12:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ummm at what point did i say "time consuming" = "difficult"?
#16 Dec 19 2012 at 2:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Most of an MMO's population will be casual players, and even most hardcore players will shift to casual play eventually as their life progresses (or devolves, but let's try to keep it positive). And let's face it, even hardcore players actually want an audience to lord their superiority over, and who better than the masses who can't get the hard fought prizes that take too much time to get?

So I never understood this need to alienate or flat out banish casual play from an MMO. Because such an MMO would lose the majority of its core audience, not make as much money, which won't allow it to afford to keep developers developing, and with nothing new to look forward to, eventually bore even the hardcore players into quitting.

Really you want to have both casual and hardcore play together in the same place. Because more casuals means other people are financing a better hardcore experience within the game than hardcore players alone could muster. It's a win-win! Smiley: nod
#17 Dec 19 2012 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Onionthiefx wrote:
Even WoW, which ofc is being used a model for ARR, had a lot of content for both.



would you be so kinda as to name some of the things in WoW that take a long time to get as well as tell us how long it takes to get whatever thing in WoW takes the longest to get in the game?

Im dying to see examples of what WoW calls lofty/distant goals

Getting a Legendary weapon is a lofty goal. Gearing out your character in a full set of current tier heroic gear is a lofty goal. Completing some of the achievements in the game are lofty goals.

The horse has been beaten into glue... Difficulty != time required to obtain.

You're baiting a fight that has been had a zillion times already with no clear winner. How long you spend chasing after your [insert nifty reward here] in whichever game you play is not a clear indication of how difficult it was, nor is it an indication of how much you enjoyed the journey. The point of games is to have fun.

No one will disagree that Blizzard put WoWs highest achievements closer to the majority of their players than XI did. Why would Blizzard want the majority of their players to be able to experience all of the content of their game? Why does SE want to keep many of their players from even attempting to participate in some of the content in their game?

je355804 wrote:
With that said, to my point. If SE decides to "evolve" this game so that it resembles WoW more than XI, I wholeheartedly believe the game will fail or live in the land of perpetual mediocrity at best.

This land of perpetual mediocrity... you realize that this is the land where XI currently resides now, don't you? So basically what you're saying is, damned if you do and damned if you don't?


Edited, Dec 18th 2012 7:13pm by FilthMcNasty



ummm at what point did i say "time consuming" = "difficult"?

but anyway you named some of WoWs lofty goals but you neglected to mention roughly how long they take.



In my case it took me 2 years to get Attumen the Huntsman mount out of Karazan and 1.5 years to get the Ravenlord mount out of Sethekk Halls. I gave up trying to get the Deathcharger out of Stratholme that is simply too rare even for my patience.
#18 Dec 19 2012 at 6:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Im dying to see examples of what WoW calls lofty/distant goals

ummm at what point did i say "time consuming" = "difficult"?

but anyway you named some of WoWs lofty goals but you neglected to mention roughly how long they take.

The bolded part of your post makes it sound like you don't think WoW is capable of presenting players with challenging goals to reach, or that they don't compare.

If I misunderstood what you said then I apologize, but I'd imagine that just about anyone who read it would have interpreted it that way.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#19 Dec 19 2012 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Im dying to see examples of what WoW calls lofty/distant goals

ummm at what point did i say "time consuming" = "difficult"?

but anyway you named some of WoWs lofty goals but you neglected to mention roughly how long they take.

The bolded part of your post makes it sound like you don't think WoW is capable of presenting players with challenging goals to reach, or that they don't compare.

If I misunderstood what you said then I apologize, but I'd imagine that just about anyone who read it would have interpreted it that way.


I don't see why you have to explain how long they take. They take as long as it takes to get them, for a causal player longer than someone who plays for hours every day. Don't apologize.
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#20DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 19 2012 at 7:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I dont think it is.. which is why I ask...
#21 Dec 19 2012 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I dont think it is.. which is why I ask...


After all everyone says "WoW is for ppl who like everything handed to them and instant gratification" if that were true then thats not a game youd picture having anything remotely difficulty to obtain (i.e a fight you may die 5+ times on before you finally win it) nor would you expect it to have something that takes 1+ years to obtain... or even 6 months. considering those things would be the complete opposite of "INSTANT gratification" and "things being handed to you" (i.e if i have to work my **** off redoing a fighting 5+ times because it was that hard then Id say I worked for/earned it.. it wasnt just handed to me. right?)


The people who say such things about WoW are people who have never played it to obtain or achieve any of the things we're talking about. These are most likely people who log into the game and get to level 10 or 20 and dislike how quests lead you from one area to another and give you rewards suitable to your level. You don't have to farm at level 10 and wait 3 days for your auctions to sell to afford gear, you don't have to read a wiki to figure out what you're doing and you don't have to spend 3 hours trying to assemble a group for an hour long exp party. If that's the measuring stick, it's clear to see why they think WoW is easymode.

Really would like to avoid the whole 'my game is harder than yours' argument, but I would just point out that there have been encounters in WoW that the world's top raiding guilds have made hundreds of attempts trying to clear... for the first time. I can count the number of times I wiped to HNMs in FFXI on my hands and one foot.
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#22 Dec 19 2012 at 10:17 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I dont think it is.. which is why I ask...


After all everyone says "WoW is for ppl who like everything handed to them and instant gratification" if that were true then thats not a game youd picture having anything remotely difficulty to obtain (i.e a fight you may die 5+ times on before you finally win it) nor would you expect it to have something that takes 1+ years to obtain... or even 6 months. considering those things would be the complete opposite of "INSTANT gratification" and "things being handed to you" (i.e if i have to work my **** off redoing a fighting 5+ times because it was that hard then Id say I worked for/earned it.. it wasnt just handed to me. right?)


The people who say such things about WoW are people who have never played it to obtain or achieve any of the things we're talking about. These are most likely people who log into the game and get to level 10 or 20 and dislike how quests lead you from one area to another and give you rewards suitable to your level. You don't have to farm at level 10 and wait 3 days for your auctions to sell to afford gear, you don't have to read a wiki to figure out what you're doing and you don't have to spend 3 hours trying to assemble a group for an hour long exp party. If that's the measuring stick, it's clear to see why they think WoW is easymode.

Really would like to avoid the whole 'my game is harder than yours' argument, but I would just point out that there have been encounters in WoW that the world's top raiding guilds have made hundreds of attempts trying to clear... for the first time. I can count the number of times I wiped to HNMs in FFXI on my hands and one foot.



well HNMs in FFXI really werent that hard... PW, AV and 90% of the CoP missions on the other hand... were...


but anyway the information I was trying to acquire is simple. I was under the assumption that WoW was as I described above "easymode" and just about everything could be done in 1-3 months tops (kinda like what is the case with the current state of FFXIV). As another poster in the topic said

" And let's face it, even hardcore players actually want an audience to lord their superiority over, and who better than the masses who can't get the hard fought prizes that take too much time to get? "

while I wouldnt phrase it the way he put it, Id say Im one of the hardcore types he spoke of.


So I figured if FFXIV was basically copying WoW to get more subs and everything in WoW could be done in 1-3 months, then everything in FFXIV could be too, thus wed never have anything for the hardcore. But if what you say is true and there are indeed fights in WoW that would kick my ***, and there are hard sought items that can take 6+ months to obtain and if FFXIV is borrowing from/trying to copy WoW then that means such things will exist in FFXIV as well (assuming FFXIV does it right and not just focuses on the casual/accessible aspects of WoW). Thus FFXIV will please me just fine


sidenote: I like how you say "you don't have to read a wiki to figure out what you're doing" You know the devs never gave answers and someone had to WRITE those guides and wiki's you read right? which means SOME of us are capable or figuring things out on our own. After all guides and boss strategies didnt exist when my group and I did CoP.. and we made it to Sea without any help.
#23 Dec 19 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well HNMs in FFXI really werent that hard... PW, AV and 90% of the CoP missions on the other hand... were...

You just compared PW and AV to CoP missions? Of all the ignorant things I've read on the internet...

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#24 Dec 19 2012 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
but anyway the information I was trying to acquire is simple. I was under the assumption that WoW was as I described above "easymode" and just about everything could be done in 1-3 months tops (kinda like what is the case with the current state of FFXIV).


Why were you under this assumption? I get that hating WoW is popular in the XI circles, having spent the better part of the last decade hearing about it, but I'd like to know exactly where you got this information that it's ezmode from. There's content that is out of the reach of casual players. They are called 25 man heroics. And they aren't kidding. They are @#%^ing hard, and you have never played anything like it. Rift is the same way. I'd love to see some of the "hardcore" XI players here go mess around with Akylios or Laethys and then come back here claiming anything that isn't XI is ezmode.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

So I figured if FFXIV was basically copying WoW to get more subs and everything in WoW could be done in 1-3 months, then everything in FFXIV could be too, thus wed never have anything for the hardcore. But if what you say is true and there are indeed fights in WoW that would kick my ***, and there are hard sought items that can take 6+ months to obtain and if FFXIV is borrowing from/trying to copy WoW then that means such things will exist in FFXIV as well (assuming FFXIV does it right and not just focuses on the casual/accessible aspects of WoW). Thus FFXIV will please me just fine


Also, where did you get the idea that XIV would be copying WoW? that's not even CLOSE to what Yoshi-P said in his interview. What he said was he thought that the same thing as they did with XI should have been done here: The dev team played Everquest for a year to see what it was about the game that was so appealing and make it into a Final Fantasy game. Playing World of Warcraft for a year to see what about it has captured the interest of millions for almost a decade and making THAT Final Fantasy isn't the same as copying WoW to cater to the lowest common denominator which is essentially what you are saying (and insulting an entire playerbase of multiple-millions in the process).

It's taking inspiration and not reinventing the wheel, like they tried, and failed, to do with XIV.

Edited, Dec 19th 2012 12:21pm by Torrence
#25DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 19 2012 at 12:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i didnt COMPARE the two at all.. i simply listed thing sin FFXI that were hard as awhole
#26DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 19 2012 at 12:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) "Also, where did you get the idea that XIV would be copying WoW?"
#27 Dec 19 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well HNMs in FFXI really werent that hard... PW, AV and 90% of the CoP missions on the other hand... were...

You just compared PW and AV to CoP missions? Of all the ignorant things I've read on the internet...

cake.jpg


Smiley: cake

FTFY.
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#28 Dec 19 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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I don't understand why people get so upset or confused, when SE says they are gonna look at another game, and take from it and improve their own.... That is the basis for Squaresoft, they looked at DQ and copied it, made it easier and more accessible and we got Final Fantasy :) They did the same exact thing with EQ, they used it as the blueprint for XI, Xi is nothing more than EQ with better graphics. So who can blame SE for trying once again what has been their recipe to success ? There are plenty of things they can take from WOW/GW/Rift and translate to their game, with a FF Spin on it.

As for lofty goals in wow as compared to XI.... we cant really compare for in XI there where no hard fights, AV and that other fight are just horrible design fights..... outside of that everything else is cake... and boring to look at.... if you compare a high tier fight from Xi to one in Wow... the difference is like the earth and the sky... one is boring standing around casting and w/e the other is engaging, and 50 things going around at once.

So i assume you are talking about RNG.... Which is not hard is just stupid.
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#29 Dec 19 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Onionthiefx wrote:
Even WoW, which ofc is being used a model for ARR, had a lot of content for both.



would you be so kinda as to name some of the things in WoW that take a long time to get as well as tell us how long it takes to get whatever thing in WoW takes the longest to get in the game?

Im dying to see examples of what WoW calls lofty/distant goals

Getting a Legendary weapon is a lofty goal. Gearing out your character in a full set of current tier heroic gear is a lofty goal. Completing some of the achievements in the game are lofty goals.

The horse has been beaten into glue... Difficulty != time required to obtain.

You're baiting a fight that has been had a zillion times already with no clear winner. How long you spend chasing after your [insert nifty reward here] in whichever game you play is not a clear indication of how difficult it was, nor is it an indication of how much you enjoyed the journey. The point of games is to have fun.

No one will disagree that Blizzard put WoWs highest achievements closer to the majority of their players than XI did. Why would Blizzard want the majority of their players to be able to experience all of the content of their game? Why does SE want to keep many of their players from even attempting to participate in some of the content in their game?

je355804 wrote:
With that said, to my point. If SE decides to "evolve" this game so that it resembles WoW more than XI, I wholeheartedly believe the game will fail or live in the land of perpetual mediocrity at best.

This land of perpetual mediocrity... you realize that this is the land where XI currently resides now, don't you? So basically what you're saying is, damned if you do and damned if you don't?


Edited, Dec 18th 2012 7:13pm by FilthMcNasty



Yes it is indeed where XI lives now, however it is NOT where it lived for 8-10 years or so... **** the new FF MMO is out, surely you wouldn't expect the original to have some massive sub base would you?
#30 Dec 19 2012 at 2:12 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I dont think it is.. which is why I ask...


After all everyone says "WoW is for ppl who like everything handed to them and instant gratification" if that were true then thats not a game youd picture having anything remotely difficulty to obtain (i.e a fight you may die 5+ times on before you finally win it) nor would you expect it to have something that takes 1+ years to obtain... or even 6 months. considering those things would be the complete opposite of "INSTANT gratification" and "things being handed to you" (i.e if i have to work my **** off redoing a fighting 5+ times because it was that hard then Id say I worked for/earned it.. it wasnt just handed to me. right?)


The people who say such things about WoW are people who have never played it to obtain or achieve any of the things we're talking about. These are most likely people who log into the game and get to level 10 or 20 and dislike how quests lead you from one area to another and give you rewards suitable to your level. You don't have to farm at level 10 and wait 3 days for your auctions to sell to afford gear, you don't have to read a wiki to figure out what you're doing and you don't have to spend 3 hours trying to assemble a group for an hour long exp party. If that's the measuring stick, it's clear to see why they think WoW is easymode.

Really would like to avoid the whole 'my game is harder than yours' argument, but I would just point out that there have been encounters in WoW that the world's top raiding guilds have made hundreds of attempts trying to clear... for the first time. I can count the number of times I wiped to HNMs in FFXI on my hands and one foot.



You're precisely right. We love (and love to hate) those aspects from XI... That's what made XI a gem in it's own right. Sure, that model may never sell 8 bazillion subs like WoW... But it's apparently sufficient to get enough subs to be the most profitable FF of all time.


Edit:

Quote - I don't understand why people get so upset or confused, when SE says they are gonna look at another game, and take from it and improve their own....


I'm not sure what people don't get about this??? XI players by large majority (not all but certainly a majority) HATE, HATE, HATE WoW.

Now using a line of logic (not saying you lack logic, just throwing a point out there.) XI players will presumably make up the next base of XIV... If XI players HATE WoW, why would those same players want a new game based off WoW???

Now with that said, I can understand the counterpoint that many of the original XI players have moved on and no longer game, or are more casual gamers... well let me provide an anecdotal example.

It is true that I may be a more casual gamer now, however towards the end of XI when one could still start at the beginning and level up a job from 1-75 without all the mega ezmode extras they've added now, I introduced my two little brothers to the game who are now 17 and 18 (the same age I was when I started XI.) They in turn introduced the game to their friends and so on and so forth. They likewise hate WoW, and prefer the more immersive world that is XI.

I know for a fact that there will always be people who like a more hardcore experience... SE shouldn't make the fatal flaw of assuming this type of gamer isn' out there. Because they are, and they will always continue to yearn for an experience like XI... not only that, but this customer tends to also be loyal, as evidenced by the amazing run XI had.


Edited, Dec 19th 2012 3:24pm by je355804

Edited, Dec 19th 2012 3:24pm by je355804


Sorry -- one last edit:

I liken the XIV transforming into a WoW like this...

To us (meaning true players of XI), XI was a Ferrari... It was hot, ****, and not many other people had it, sure the maintenance cost on it was a beeyotch but that's the price of driving a ferrari... In other words, it's going to be expensive to drive this Ferrari (XI - time cost mostly.) But damnit when you get out of your Ferrari you feel like a bad ****.

Then our neighbors have a Honda Civic (WoW). Everyone has a Honda Civic. Even everyone's grandmother has a Honda Civic. Even some senator made the news because they have a honda civic. GREAT FOR THEM! We're Ferrari owners (XI.) We don't want some grocery getter, that takes us from point A to point B with little to no cost at all (lack of relative time/hardcore cost of WoW.) We want to get 4 mpg... we do it because we love it.

Now the maker of Ferraris (SE) calls all it's owners and tells us, "hey guys, we've noticed Honda Civics have sold millions more than Ferraris, so guess what?! We're going to make the new Ferrari modeled after Honda Civics!!! ISN'T THAT AWESOME, AREN'T YOU GUYS HAPPY???"

I know this is an absolutely exaggerated metaphor, but I truly believe this is how many feel about the WoWification of our precious Ferraris.

Edited, Dec 19th 2012 3:33pm by je355804
#31 Dec 19 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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The market for Ferraris has been laid low indeed.

Screenshot


They're making a smart business move IMO. I think there can be a place for both types of players, but as much as you like being a Ferrari owner, the Honda owners of the world will contribute way more money.
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#32 Dec 19 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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je355804 wrote:

I'm not sure what people don't get about this??? XI players by large majority (not all but certainly a majority) HATE, HATE, HATE WoW.


But then when you peel back the layers to try to find out why, you see posts by people who never even played it. DuoMaxwell who has no clue what he's talking about in regards to its difficulty. Catwho who watched some friend of hers once healing a raid and assumed it was just random clicking boxes. These are the posts that influence the population into just hating the game for no real reason. Are there folks who tried it and just didn't like the art direction\interface\fact its on a pc? I'm sure there are, but the most rabid ones trumpeting its alleged shortcomings tend to lean towards those who barely scratched the surface of what the game has to offer.

XI players in general need to be a LOT more reasonable and stop living in this bubble where jumping in an mmo is the end of the world.
#33 Dec 19 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I think your metaphor is wrong.... How can XI be a ferrari ? Is knock off EQ which lets say was a BMW so in turn XI is a Kia K9 ( A blatant knock off of a BMW) now i am not gonna say WOW is a ferrari.. But it costed 10X as more to develop as XI.... So how can it be a honda civic ? Because it sold more ? That is not how cars work, a ferrari is a ferrari because it costs more than a honda civic and it delivers things that a honda civic don't.... XI dint deliver anything new... It was an EQ copy with better graphics, Wow on the other hand revolutionized the MMO industry, it costed more to develop, and had the same price point that XI had.... Yet it charged extra for extra goodies... You want a transfer ? you want a name change ? you want a mount ? you want a pet ? Pay extra. Those are goodies that a ferrari or a top tier car maker would charge its consumers.... Becase well it is a ferrari... So how can XI be a ferrari ? Because it sold less than Wow ? Well that makes no absolute sense.

Let's say for arguments sake that XI was a ferrari, if there is anything to learn from XI/Wow is that even if XI was a ferrari, 13.5 million consumers are willing to pay the same price of cost of a ferrari for a honda civid that it might not look as pretty but it delivers more for your money.

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Torrence wrote:
je355804 wrote:

I'm not sure what people don't get about this??? XI players by large majority (not all but certainly a majority) HATE, HATE, HATE WoW.


But then when you peel back the layers to try to find out why, you see posts by people who never even played it. DuoMaxwell who has no clue what he's talking about in regards to its difficulty. Catwho who watched some friend of hers once healing a raid and assumed it was just random clicking boxes. These are the posts that influence the population into just hating the game for no real reason. Are there folks who tried it and just didn't like the art direction\interface\fact its on a pc? I'm sure there are, but the most rabid ones trumpeting its alleged shortcomings tend to lean towards those who barely scratched the surface of what the game has to offer.

XI players in general need to be a LOT more reasonable and stop living in this bubble where jumping in an mmo is the end of the world.


I played WoW at the lower levels and you're right, I never got far, because I didn't like the art direction of the game. As for the raid I watched, I didn't say it wasn't hard for the healer, just boring looking. The stuff everyone else got to do, throwing chains on a dragon and running around avoiding fire breath, was conversely quite exciting looking on her screen. She dodged the fire too, then stood in one place and clicked boxes again.

No matter how much thought process has to go to which box to click.... it's still just clicking boxes with a mouse. If I want to play "think hard about which box to click first" there's always Mine Sweeper on any Windows machine :P



Edited, Dec 19th 2012 5:09pm by catwho
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#35 Dec 19 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No matter how much thought process has to go to which box to click.... it's still just clicking boxes with a mouse.


So. What's your alternative, since your statement pretty much subsumes the whole universe of computer games?
#36 Dec 19 2012 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
Ostia wrote:
I think your metaphor is wrong.... How can XI be a ferrari ? Is knock off EQ which lets say was a BMW so in turn XI is a Kia K9 ( A blatant knock off of a BMW) now i am not gonna say WOW is a ferrari.. But it costed 10X as more to develop as XI.... So how can it be a honda civic ? Because it sold more ? That is not how cars work, a ferrari is a ferrari because it costs more than a honda civic and it delivers things that a honda civic don't.... XI dint deliver anything new... It was an EQ copy with better graphics, Wow on the other hand revolutionized the MMO industry, it costed more to develop, and had the same price point that XI had.... Yet it charged extra for extra goodies... You want a transfer ? you want a name change ? you want a mount ? you want a pet ? Pay extra. Those are goodies that a ferrari or a top tier car maker would charge its consumers.... Becase well it is a ferrari... So how can XI be a ferrari ? Because it sold less than Wow ? Well that makes no absolute sense.

Let's say for arguments sake that XI was a ferrari, if there is anything to learn from XI/Wow is that even if XI was a ferrari, 13.5 million consumers are willing to pay the same price of cost of a ferrari for a honda civid that it might not look as pretty but it delivers more for your money.



Sounds more like a Nissan GT-R (XI) vs a Corvette (WoW) to me.
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#37 Dec 19 2012 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
I think the biggest thing people from both XI and WoW don't like / are afraid of is the communities.

XI has a pretty elitist feel to it for many reasons. The community is smaller, but also has to rely on itself more than WoW. This is seen in requiring groups for pretty much everything after lvl 10. XI feels like people need to worry about their reputation, because there are only so many people to play with in the first place. "If I'm going to have to rely on you to tank properly so that I can get 10k xp/hr, and we're probably going to end up partying together a lot over the next 50 lvls, then you better do your @#$% job noob!" comes to mind. If you go and ninja-loot in too many different shells, you're going to get a bad enough rep that you will probably need to switch servers. People in XI are afraid that if ARR becomes a "casual-friendly WoW clone" then they will have to deal with a lot more people. Those extra people could be young, juvenile, immature, but they could also be nice, helpful, polite. People tend to view only the negative points though.

I've never played WoW, but I get the sense that the community as a whole is not as cohesive as XI's was. I may be wrong on that. I know there were plenty of guilds, social groups, etc that were tight-knit, but when there are that many more people, everyone tends to blend together. D-bags, while they will be discovered in time, can last a lot longer in a game with 10-million people in it. It removes a lot of accountability. I think some of the WoW people are put off by the XI crowd because they seem snooty. Obviously the top guilds and most hardcore WoWers won't care and would probably mix in quite quickly, but the average person is going to be weary of joining the FF community when there are gear checks just to go camp xp...

I say these things as my own opinion, not as some voice of the people. While I don't personally want a super-casual experience, I'm open to it if there is at least a 50-50 split on content difficulty. I also think the 2 worlds would mesh together better than a lot of people expect.
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#38 Dec 19 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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I always thought the forced groupings for the genkai, and the travel to high(er) level, far away places in a big group, really added to the sense of community in FFXI.

Of course regular grouping and having one character helped too, but these things have to be made easier to do and accomplish.

As much as I like auto grouping, it doesn't seem the same when you have to ask someone; "Need a group for GK1?".."Yes Please!" Just that can add a personal touch to the sense that you're working together within a world.

The length of time (in FFXI) it took to get places also was a blessing in disguise. Needing sneak oils to get to Jeuno from the starter cities was an experience that I've never had in any other MMO. Again that time to many was a turn off and time sink, but it also made the world seem huge. Plus it made quests for Chocobo and airship access worth it.

The teleportation of FFXIV was nice, but I didn't feel as immersed like I did in FFXI.

There are many other "bittersweet" things that FFXI did that I don't think can be reconciled in today's gaming environment. Things I both loved and hated about the game, because although they added frustration, they added a sense of immersion.

Lastly, the quests made no sense in FFXI. I don't even know how most of them were solved; the internet namely "Somepage" was my friend.

So, I think that if I were to have to make concessions, I'd make a game that made it easy to group up, like a level sync, or just no level restriction; you'd be dropped down to an average level of the group; and fighting for general low level fights wouldn't need a healer.

And for genkai, or things where you had to group to progress, it would have to be a little easier to group as well; or give incentives for higher level players to replay a certain event.

Lastly #2, if combat and grouping is a bit easier, then the world should be huge and it should take a bit longer to get places; require quests to get more travel capabilities.

All of that being said, if the devs wanted to make a WoW type FFXIV through the solo/quest/instance for group vein, then I won't really complain. I liked WoW and other games in that genre like Rift, but they were short lived.

You can't appease people like me and be successful and I think Yoshi-P knows that. So why not err on the side of millions of subscriptions?

Edited, Dec 19th 2012 7:38pm by Kierk
#39 Dec 19 2012 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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je355804 wrote:
Now the maker of Ferraris (SE) calls all it's owners and tells us, "hey guys, we've noticed Honda Civics have sold millions more than Ferraris, so guess what?! We're going to make the new Ferrari modeled after Honda Civics!!! ISN'T THAT AWESOME, AREN'T YOU GUYS HAPPY???"

I know this is an absolutely exaggerated metaphor, but I truly believe this is how many feel about the WoWification of our precious Ferraris.

Analogy doesn't fit because Ferrari are performance cars and XI is not a performance MMO. I'll humor you though...

A slightly modified and probably more realistic version of what SE said:
"Hey guys, we've noticed that these Honda Civics are outperforming our Ferrari. Apparently people care more about performance than they do aesthetics so lets refocus our efforts to bring our customers cars that look AND perform like Ferrari should."

Sure, FFXIV looks like a Ferrari, but when you open the hood there's a hamster running on a wheel. The WoWification of XIV is simply SE realizing that people would prefer a Civic body with a Ferrari engine in it over a Ferrari body with a Civic engine and making adjustments accordingly.

Edited, Dec 19th 2012 8:03pm by FilthMcNasty
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#40 Dec 19 2012 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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In 2045 a 'boomer' generation will come along and demand a return to those mythical days of necessitated teamwork. They'll demand that the genre once again be called MMORPG rather than the bastardised renaming of MSPORPG* (asterisked to appease the small contingent of hardcore duo-groups).

Of course by then I'll be the crazy old cat lady screaming outside my window. >.<
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#41 Dec 20 2012 at 3:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
In 2045 a 'boomer' generation will come along and demand a return to those mythical days of necessitated teamwork. They'll demand that the genre once again be called MMORPG rather than the bastardised renaming of MSPORPG* (asterisked to appease the small contingent of hardcore duo-groups).

Of course by then I'll be the crazy old cat lady screaming outside my window. >.<


In a sense, its already happening (hopefully not the cat-lady bit). You can't really roll up into Planetside 2, for instance, without a group. In fact I think they just auto-drop you into a group when you log in. Which makes it great for a casual gamer who prefers grouping. I know, its an MMOFPS, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a "hardcore backlash" in the MMORPG world.

As for the whole "XI was easymode" thing, I suppose it was if you never did Salvage back before it was all figured out. Or CoP, which was in fact challenging back in the day. I get that its become fashionable to say that these things were easy, for some reason. Maybe because a lot of the difficulty was actually just plain bad game design. I could understand that rationale. PW and AV don't even bear mentioning. since they were both clearly examples of Tanaka indulging in sadism, and in no way actually count as anything resembling "game design".

I also totally understand that SE's idea of boss mechanics as compared to Trion's or Blizzard's, is laughable. And if that's the argument, then there's no argument as far as I am concerned. I'm right there with you. But the people dismissing the old game in its entirety as "easymode" are wearing glasses just as tinted as the ones worn by the "XI exp was awesome content" brigade.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 4:20am by Llester
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#42 Dec 20 2012 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
In 2045 a 'boomer' generation will come along and demand a return to those mythical days of necessitated teamwork. They'll demand that the genre once again be called MMORPG rather than the bastardised renaming of MSPORPG* (asterisked to appease the small contingent of hardcore duo-groups).

Of course by then I'll be the crazy old cat lady screaming outside my window. >.<


In a sense, its already happening (hopefully not the cat-lady bit). You can't really roll up into Planetside 2, for instance, without a group. In fact I think they just auto-drop you into a group when you log in. Which makes it great for a casual gamer who prefers grouping. I know, its an MMOFPS, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a "hardcore backlash" in the MMORPG world.

As for the whole "XI was easymode" thing, I suppose it was if you never did Salvage back before it was all figured out. Or CoP, which was in fact challenging back in the day. I get that its become fashionable to say that these things were easy, for some reason. Maybe because a lot of the difficulty was actually just plain bad game design. I could understand that rationale. PW and AV don't even bear mentioning. since they were both clearly examples of Tanaka indulging in sadism, and in no way actually count as anything resembling "game design".

I also totally understand that SE's idea of boss mechanics as compared to Trion's or Blizzard's, is laughable. And if that's the argument, then there's no argument as far as I am concerned. I'm right there with you. But the people dismissing the old game in its entirety as "easymode" are wearing glasses just as tinted as the ones worn by the "XI exp was awesome content" brigade.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 4:20am by Llester


I fully agree with you, and that is my argument, that as far boss mechanics and design SE is a joke when compared to other developers, as far as the entire game being easy mode, i don't agree fully that XI was easy mode, but most of the difficulties came from RNG and huge time sinks, as to opposed to skill gap. Up until Ifrit SE has not been able to design a fight that is engaging and challenging skill wise, they have always been on the extreme, either a tank&spank or a 50 phase boss that has a trillion hp, and has some secret way of killing in which if you miss one step, even if you are in Phase 49, but you did not kill that one rat in phase 1, he will become invincible and wipe you lol.

As far as Planetside 2 well planetside one which i bough and played on release, is a group game, is a massive combat pvp game, totally different from a MMORPG.
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#43 Dec 20 2012 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:


I fully agree with you, and that is my argument, that as far boss mechanics and design SE is a joke when compared to other developers, as far as the entire game being easy mode, i don't agree fully that XI was easy mode, but most of the difficulties came from RNG and huge time sinks, as to opposed to skill gap. Up until Ifrit SE has not been able to design a fight that is engaging and challenging skill wise, they have always been on the extreme, either a tank&spank or a 50 phase boss that has a trillion hp, and has some secret way of killing in which if you miss one step, even if you are in Phase 49, but you did not kill that one rat in phase 1, he will become invincible and wipe you lol.

As far as Planetside 2 well planetside one which i bough and played on release, is a group game, is a massive combat pvp game, totally different from a MMORPG.


I'd add that a lot of the difficulty also came from not having good enough gear . More GvE than PvE . That's not to say that WoW doesn't have a metric ton of gear-check bosses. But yeah, FFXI bosses were mostly tank and spank with some adds and kiting here and there. And I think I'm understanding the other side of the argument now. The difficulty wasn't in the mechanics of the fights, but in stupid things like gear, cheap TP moves, or any of the other things you mentioned. Maybe I should take back my tinted glasses comment.

I can't speak for PS1, but PS2 takes place in a perpetual world, and while its not an MMORPG, it certainly is an MMO, and incorporates a lot of MMORPG characteristics. Technically you are correct. Regardless, I see the nature of the MMORPG swinging more towards action combat, and genre boundaries being gradually broken down. I may have spoken too soon based on my own predictions of the industry rather than on its current state. I'm actually having a tough time thinking of a current bona fide MMORPG that requires grouping. Mortal Online would have been a better example.
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#44 Dec 20 2012 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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Well in all honesty i am pretty sure some bosses in XI required skill, but more often than not, it was the exception not the rule, i guess that is my point overall, i played XI, i actually love RPG'S and FF to me was the best series that delivered a good/decent story with engaging game play. XIV in my eyes failed to deliver both, it has good graphics, but the story is so not well delivered and slow paced, and the game play was boring, way to slow, and simple. Now i do hope that changes with 2.0, since we have already seen what ? 3 battle system changes ?

As for Planetside, PS1 was also a perpetual world, you would log in, on your factions main base, where you could make groups, organize, change your outfit(Guns/skills etc etc.) and then you would either ride on planes or use a portal to one of the areas that where being contested, or invade one.

From what you have said, PS2 follows the same formula which is good. i enjoyed PS1, it was a really good game.
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#45 Dec 20 2012 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
[quote=Torrence]

I played WoW at the lower levels and you're right, I never got far, because I didn't like the art direction of the game. As for the raid I watched, I didn't say it wasn't hard for the healer, just boring looking. The stuff everyone else got to do, throwing chains on a dragon and running around avoiding fire breath, was conversely quite exciting looking on her screen. She dodged the fire too, then stood in one place and clicked boxes again.

No matter how much thought process has to go to which box to click.... it's still just clicking boxes with a mouse. If I want to play "think hard about which box to click first" there's always Mine Sweeper on any Windows machine :P


Ok, but how was XI any different for a healer? You didn't click boxes, but all I remember of white mage was the up and down on my dpad to select the party member, right or left trigger and selecting a macro. Two extra steps to cast a slow spell. You didn't even have to move for most battles. No cool chains to click, no running around to avoid things. You cast cure, and sometimes you would have to cast a paralyna or change your stance. It wasn't really all that exciting, especially if this is the measuring stick we are going to use. Bard is even less engaging - you sing a couple songs to one group, then run to the other. About the most exciting thing you get to do from a difficulty standpoint is cast Pianissimo and ST on of your spells, but let's not pretend that XI is some super-engaging skill fest that nothing in WoW could measure up to because its just minesweeper in mmo form.

Thats a bit of a simplistic view of something that isn't all that different from XI.
#46 Dec 20 2012 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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2,010 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
I think the biggest thing people from both XI and WoW don't like / are afraid of is the communities.

XI has a pretty elitist feel to it for many reasons. The community is smaller, but also has to rely on itself more than WoW. This is seen in requiring groups for pretty much everything after lvl 10. XI feels like people need to worry about their reputation, because there are only so many people to play with in the first place. "If I'm going to have to rely on you to tank properly so that I can get 10k xp/hr, and we're probably going to end up partying together a lot over the next 50 lvls, then you better do your @#$% job noob!" comes to mind. If you go and ninja-loot in too many different shells, you're going to get a bad enough rep that you will probably need to switch servers. People in XI are afraid that if ARR becomes a "casual-friendly WoW clone" then they will have to deal with a lot more people. Those extra people could be young, juvenile, immature, but they could also be nice, helpful, polite. People tend to view only the negative points though.

I've never played WoW, but I get the sense that the community as a whole is not as cohesive as XI's was. I may be wrong on that. I know there were plenty of guilds, social groups, etc that were tight-knit, but when there are that many more people, everyone tends to blend together. D-bags, while they will be discovered in time, can last a lot longer in a game with 10-million people in it. It removes a lot of accountability. I think some of the WoW people are put off by the XI crowd because they seem snooty. Obviously the top guilds and most hardcore WoWers won't care and would probably mix in quite quickly, but the average person is going to be weary of joining the FF community when there are gear checks just to go camp xp...


This is the last things I wanted to address in this thread - If you never played WoW, you have no idea what the community is like. Pleae don't pretend to based on something you heard from someone who read that someone trolled someone else who ninja'd something in a pug in trade chat one day.

You would think that it's easier to hide in a group of 10 million, but it's really not as easy as you think. Ninja'ing items doesn't happen in WoW like it did in FF. There are loot rules you can set in place so the leader of the raid can hand things out to who they are supposed to go to. It's not like in XI where the leader of the group\linkshell has no real power over who lots on the items in the treasure pool. Jerks were more pronounced in XI not because they were so rare, but because in the overwhelming majority of cases, there was literally nothing you could do to prevent them. You couldn't kick a troublemaker from your shell unless he was a pearl and an online sack could kick him, or if he was a sack you were REALLY in trouble because then the leader had to be online to kick him (frequent in those all-sack shells). Or you could contact SE, wait weeks and hope that they would ask the person to drop their pearlsack. You couldn't just get the report from your officers, and then find the person's name on the guild roster to remove him. He had to be online, and so did you.

It actually goes both ways with your comment regarding the population and reputation. I actually know far more people who were less than pleasant in Final Fantasy because they happened to play ninja and everyone and their mother needed ninja tanks, or they happened to be a soboro sam and you needed their dd, or... they happened to be a bard and for some reason everyone in XI had to kiss their asses. Don't get me started on the linkshell rivalries and abuses as they camped NMs, or the fighting and bickering at the bird camps when a group with a more efficient make up literally overran a less efficient group that was there first because they "deserved the camp more due to they had a bard lol".

I played XI for years, and people like to have these grand and fond memories of the friends they made and I get that, I made them too... but to pretend the XI community was this close knit, loving, caring, considerate group of people toward each other is just nostalgia of the worst kind.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 9:21am by Torrence
#47 Dec 20 2012 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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21,262 posts
Torrence wrote:
catwho wrote:
[quote=Torrence]

I played WoW at the lower levels and you're right, I never got far, because I didn't like the art direction of the game. As for the raid I watched, I didn't say it wasn't hard for the healer, just boring looking. The stuff everyone else got to do, throwing chains on a dragon and running around avoiding fire breath, was conversely quite exciting looking on her screen. She dodged the fire too, then stood in one place and clicked boxes again.

No matter how much thought process has to go to which box to click.... it's still just clicking boxes with a mouse. If I want to play "think hard about which box to click first" there's always Mine Sweeper on any Windows machine :P


Ok, but how was XI any different for a healer? You didn't click boxes, but all I remember of white mage was the up and down on my dpad to select the party member, right or left trigger and selecting a macro. Two extra steps to cast a slow spell. You didn't even have to move for most battles. No cool chains to click, no running around to avoid things. You cast cure, and sometimes you would have to cast a paralyna or change your stance. It wasn't really all that exciting, especially if this is the measuring stick we are going to use. Bard is even less engaging - you sing a couple songs to one group, then run to the other. About the most exciting thing you get to do from a difficulty standpoint is cast Pianissimo and ST on of your spells, but let's not pretend that XI is some super-engaging skill fest that nothing in WoW could measure up to because its just minesweeper in mmo form.

Thats a bit of a simplistic view of something that isn't all that different from XI.


Puller bard was something else entirely, especially during the height of pink birds. There was maintaining 2-3 different spell sets on party members, but also tactical reflection of DoT spells to keep yourself from getting slept, deciding whether to using an Elegy pull versus a Lamia Bane throwing disk, memorizing the repop pattern to the maintain the chain, occasional fights with other parties for pops, and keeping up this pattern every thirty seconds for hours and hours on end. It wasn't "hard" to kill an individual bird, but getting to chain 100+ was an accomplishment, and getting to chain 300+ put you in a small group of the most desireable exp party members on your server.

I don't click boxes in XI, I press keys. My WHM macro set is six bars long. In an exp party, yeah it's mostly maintaining a haste cycle, but in a boss fight, there's a good deal of buffing, debuffing, enfeebling, un-enfeebling, memorizing TP moves, deciding cure priorities (hey just like WoW), and tossing off strategic flashes and banishes when the situation warrants.

In short, an acceptable WHM in XI will sit there and "click boxes" to cure. A good WHM in XI will do that and much more. One thing I liked about the Abyssea light mechanics was that a WHM's less used spells were suddenly critical for getting yellow procs, and every once in a while the blue proc calls for Hexa Strike, which only a WHM is capable of doing.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 11:00am by catwho
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#48 Dec 20 2012 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
Torrence wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
I think the biggest thing people from both XI and WoW don't like / are afraid of is the communities.

XI has a pretty elitist feel to it for many reasons. The community is smaller, but also has to rely on itself more than WoW. This is seen in requiring groups for pretty much everything after lvl 10. XI feels like people need to worry about their reputation, because there are only so many people to play with in the first place. "If I'm going to have to rely on you to tank properly so that I can get 10k xp/hr, and we're probably going to end up partying together a lot over the next 50 lvls, then you better do your @#$% job noob!" comes to mind. If you go and ninja-loot in too many different shells, you're going to get a bad enough rep that you will probably need to switch servers. People in XI are afraid that if ARR becomes a "casual-friendly WoW clone" then they will have to deal with a lot more people. Those extra people could be young, juvenile, immature, but they could also be nice, helpful, polite. People tend to view only the negative points though.

I've never played WoW, but I get the sense that the community as a whole is not as cohesive as XI's was. I may be wrong on that. I know there were plenty of guilds, social groups, etc that were tight-knit, but when there are that many more people, everyone tends to blend together. D-bags, while they will be discovered in time, can last a lot longer in a game with 10-million people in it. It removes a lot of accountability. I think some of the WoW people are put off by the XI crowd because they seem snooty. Obviously the top guilds and most hardcore WoWers won't care and would probably mix in quite quickly, but the average person is going to be weary of joining the FF community when there are gear checks just to go camp xp...


This is the last things I wanted to address in this thread - If you never played WoW, you have no idea what the community is like. Pleae don't pretend to based on something you heard from someone who read that someone trolled someone else who ninja'd something in a pug in trade chat one day.

You would think that it's easier to hide in a group of 10 million, but it's really not as easy as you think. Ninja'ing items doesn't happen in WoW like it did in FF. There are loot rules you can set in place so the leader of the raid can hand things out to who they are supposed to go to. It's not like in XI where the leader of the group\linkshell has no real power over who lots on the items in the treasure pool. Jerks were more pronounced in XI not because they were so rare, but because in the overwhelming majority of cases, there was literally nothing you could do to prevent them. You couldn't kick a troublemaker from your shell unless he was a pearl and an online sack could kick him, or if he was a sack you were REALLY in trouble because then the leader had to be online to kick him (frequent in those all-sack shells). Or you could contact SE, wait weeks and hope that they would ask the person to drop their pearlsack. You couldn't just get the report from your officers, and then find the person's name on the guild roster to remove him. He had to be online, and so did you.

It actually goes both ways with your comment regarding the population and reputation. I actually know far more people who were less than pleasant in Final Fantasy because they happened to play ninja and everyone and their mother needed ninja tanks, or they happened to be a soboro sam and you needed their dd, or... they happened to be a bard and for some reason everyone in XI had to kiss their asses. Don't get me started on the linkshell rivalries and abuses as they camped NMs, or the fighting and bickering at the bird camps when a group with a more efficient make up literally overran a less efficient group that was there first because they "deserved the camp more due to they had a bard lol".

I played XI for years, and people like to have these grand and fond memories of the friends they made and I get that, I made them too... but to pretend the XI community was this close knit, loving, caring, considerate group of people toward each other is just nostalgia of the worst kind.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 9:21am by Torrence


If you had read the very next sentence behind what you bolded, you would see that I clearly stated that I might be wrong. I have no illusion of knowing exactly how things are, I was simply stating my opinion. I also clearly did not have a tone of "XI is better than WoW." I didn't cover every aspect of both games, but did point out what I view as flaws in each. Actually, did I list a positive aspect for either game? Did I note anything about XI that could be seen as nostalgia? I think not. I've stated in several posts that while I love the grouping aspect, I hated the xp grind that required specific setup groups. So why don't you try and calm down.
____________________________
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Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#49 Dec 20 2012 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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2,010 posts
catwho wrote:

Puller bard was something else entirely, especially during the height of pink birds. There was maintaining 2-3 different spell sets on party members, but also tactical reflection of DoT spells to keep yourself from getting slept, deciding whether to using an Elegy pull versus a Lamia Bane throwing disk, memorizing the repop pattern to the maintain the chain, occasional fights with other parties for pops, and keeping up this pattern every thirty seconds for hours and hours on end. It wasn't "hard" to kill an individual bird, but getting to chain 100+ was an accomplishment, and getting to chain 300+ put you in a small group of the most desireable exp party members on your server.


Memorizing a pop pattern? It wasn't like there was some maze you had to get through to pull a bird. Fighting with other parties for pops is kind of the community thing I was pointing out in another post - douchbaggery at its finest was common at those camps. Not something to be proud of.

Aside from that, I won't argue that bard pulling required some awareness, but it was a completely predictable pattern. Elegy, march, maybe ballad if you had time, pull another and lullaby\repeat. The ability to stare at a screen and perform the same repetitive task over and over for hours on end... What was the problem with the box clicker again?
#50 Dec 20 2012 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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21,262 posts
At least I was mobile. Running around and clicking boxes is at least twice as exciting as just standing there and clicking boxes, in my book. Smiley: nod

Now I'm a true LazyBard (tm) and I pop my macro to set songs off for six minutes and go grab a coffee.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#51 Dec 20 2012 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
eh, I think that people who minimize the complexities of being good at XI are doing it a disservice. I don't know about everyone else, but learning to understand what all the effects of gear really mean, when to macro them in and out etc, is actually fairly complex. Also, if you aren't using spellcast or something like that, the situational awareness required to swap into sets and out of them for optimal performance is pretty intense.

I'm okay with admitting I am not there yet in terms of being a top-tier player. Maybe people will make fun of me for that, but for a game everyone likes to pretend is "so easy" because it has mechanics from an older era, there is an awful lot of stuff to learn

And while most people sneer at the difficulty in getting exp in terms of classic XI, I can't help but remember how special it all felt when a group worked. I'm an ardent defender of changes to exp that have happened (the game is olde!) but I don't think that actually takes away from the elegance of the way it all worked back in the day.

Sorry, but solo plowing through a bunch of forgettable fodder that goes down in two hits doesn't actually compare at all to playing in a cohesive, team-based way (often with people who didn't even speak your language).

I remember the first time I tried to group up with someone in WoW... I was just so astounded - they ran around willy nilly, no strategy, no working together, nothing. It was really horrible and boring and inefficient.

Same thing happened with my latest try at WoW... I actually joined with friends... but the way the whole thing is structured we felt like we were actually being penalized for being in a group. There was no flow, no sense of synergy at all.

I'm fully happy to admit that the boss mechanics look like they are more interesting in other games - but I never made it to those bosses in those games, because I found exp so boring and lonely that I gave up on them.

tl; dr

As long as there is exp in games - exping will be part of the experience. I hear people say all these things about how cool bosses are in other games, but what does it matter if you never get to them?

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 2:53pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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