Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

JE Equips FlameshieldFollow

#52 Dec 20 2012 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Yeah, despite the fact that the difficulty associated with gear-swapping was not in any way intention on SE's part, at least by community standards, there was a significant amount of homework, preparation, and attention required to play at the top level. For all the dismissal of it being sooo easy, there were an awful lot of players who weren't very good at it. So to me that begs the question, are these people just underestimating their own level of skill, or are they sincerely unable to recognize their own skill deficiencies? The classic Dunning-Kruger paradox.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#53 Dec 20 2012 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
Guru
***
1,310 posts
I think what made combat more interesting in FFXI was the threat of getting owned, and that getting owned was a painful experience. So controlling the situation well enough that you didn't suffer the consequences for playing poorly was itself the reward. The excitement came in at the margins where a routine XP gathering expedition encounters the unexpected like a linked mob or an uninvited NM or the tank disconnecting, and you had to act fast before being splattered and loathing your fate.

It didn't really matter how long the fights lasted when you get right down to it. It came down to how well you were overcoming a challenge and how severe the penalties were for failure, which made it all the sweeter when you weren't failing.

#54 Dec 20 2012 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
While I think that's true to an extent, I think that was one of the many aspects of FFXI that played to compulsion and neuroses rather than legitimate enjoyment. It's like having a gambling addiction. The thrill of winning and losing is what makes it engaging, but it's still not really fun, and losing just plain sucks.

The most fun I ever had in XI, and I know the same to be true for many, was in taking on legitimately challenging encounters, even if it was only, as you say, trying to stay in the margins of survival. Unfortunately, that was really not incentivized properly in regular play.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#55 Dec 20 2012 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
I always enjoyed Sheep in Antilon's Clothing, even if that **** Hagun never dropped.
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#56 Dec 20 2012 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
Kachi wrote:
While I think that's true to an extent, I think that was one of the many aspects of FFXI that played to compulsion and neuroses rather than legitimate enjoyment. It's like having a gambling addiction. The thrill of winning and losing is what makes it engaging, but it's still not really fun, and losing just plain sucks.

The most fun I ever had in XI, and I know the same to be true for many, was in taking on legitimately challenging encounters, even if it was only, as you say, trying to stay in the margins of survival. Unfortunately, that was really not incentivized properly in regular play.


100% agree.

XI wasn't necessarily a "difficult" game. Especially when it came down to game mechanics (theorycrafting excluded). Most melee classes were completely faceroll, and battles were stationary 90% of the time. Most of XI's difficulty was due to your reliance on other people, which was a double-edged sword. XI was the only MMO I've ever played where people would literally fall asleep in parties.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#57 Dec 20 2012 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
****
4,957 posts
TurboTom wrote:
Kachi wrote:
While I think that's true to an extent, I think that was one of the many aspects of FFXI that played to compulsion and neuroses rather than legitimate enjoyment. It's like having a gambling addiction. The thrill of winning and losing is what makes it engaging, but it's still not really fun, and losing just plain sucks.

The most fun I ever had in XI, and I know the same to be true for many, was in taking on legitimately challenging encounters, even if it was only, as you say, trying to stay in the margins of survival. Unfortunately, that was really not incentivized properly in regular play.


100% agree.

XI wasn't necessarily a "difficult" game. Especially when it came down to game mechanics (theorycrafting excluded). Most melee classes were completely faceroll, and battles were stationary 90% of the time. Most of XI's difficulty was due to your reliance on other people, which was a double-edged sword. XI was the only MMO I've ever played where people would literally fall asleep in parties.



umm im sure youd fall asleep in a party in ANY game after 3+ hours straight of doing it..

as for FFXI not being difficult.. please do explain how CoP missions were indeed easy (before they were nerfed and before the level caps were removed)
#58 Dec 21 2012 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
The only "hard" part of the CoP missions was 1. getting in a static and 2. having the right job in the static. If you had the "right" job and you were in a static that needed that job, CoP was merely long and grindy.

We finished it in about three months, and completed the two hardest missions - airship 6-4 and final boss 8-4 -- on the second try, five minutes after the failed "dry runs" we'd planned out.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#59 Dec 21 2012 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
****
4,957 posts
catwho wrote:
The only "hard" part of the CoP missions was 1. getting in a static and 2. having the right job in the static. If you had the "right" job and you were in a static that needed that job, CoP was merely long and grindy.

We finished it in about three months, and completed the two hardest missions - airship 6-4 and final boss 8-4 -- on the second try, five minutes after the failed "dry runs" we'd planned out.




theres no such thing as "right" job considering my static an dI comletely cop without a single smn, nin or /nin in our group... we spend at least 100-150k PER fight (on i wings hi pots and ethers) and lost at least 5-10k exp per battle... those fight were hard and took plent of planning, preparation and strategy if you werent doing them with a cookie cuter setup. but we proved they could be done...


sure fighting the mammets with 3nins and 3whms was a joke (i helped someone with that later on well after i finished CoP) but when you di dit without that, you had difficulty.. and dont even get me started on fighting the mithran trackers without astral flow.
#60 Dec 21 2012 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
When I joined my static (we started on Ouryu), we took an inventory of our current jobs and subjobs, saw what we had and what we needed, and decided that everyone would need to level up at least one job to level 40 or level 60 so we'd have the optimal setup. By then my BLM was 40 already, and I was asked to get it to 60 for the airship fight.

It became a point of pride for me after that to take my BLM into the airship fight at 60 cap. I helped many people over the hump - someone who had failed it ten times was able to get past it finally on the run I went in. It wasn't just that I knew that fight and was able to do my own job, but I was able to direct traffic a bit and keep everyone calm too. Quite a few times we won on our "dry run" because I'd rehearsed it all so much with everyone else.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#61 Dec 21 2012 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
It sounds to me like you missed out on a fun experience by buying into the idea that you needed certain jobs to do it, which incidentally is the thing which most people complained about.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Dec 21 2012 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
This was 2005. When I started with my CoP static, I think my highest job was 70 WHM and I was fresh out of my Maat fight and had just joined my first endgame shell. I was still wearing a mish-mash of AF and Errant because a Noble's Tunic cost ten million gil.

You didn't need certain jobs to beat CoP, it was just easier with specific setups. Since we planned far enough ahead, we were able to level up the "easier" jobs with a minimal amount of pressure since they only needed to get to 60. Couldn't leveling jobs be factored in as part of a strategy?
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#63 Dec 21 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I'm just pointing out that most of the people I talked to who enjoyed CoP found it challenging, and they found it challenging because they didn't use an "easy" configuration. When you take the conservative approach to success, challenge is lost, and so is a lot of the fun.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 Dec 21 2012 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
I was on black mage. How was I not having fun? Smiley: lol

Maybe some people find the challenge fun. For me, the fun was in gradually unlocking the story, putting the pieces together, and then finally getting to go to {sea} and start unlocking the mysteries there. The fun more or less ended when I found himself in an HNM grinding the same dozen NMs in {sea} week in and week out.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#65 Dec 21 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,957 posts
catwho wrote:
When I joined my static (we started on Ouryu), we took an inventory of our current jobs and subjobs, saw what we had and what we needed, and decided that everyone would need to level up at least one job to level 40 or level 60 so we'd have the optimal setup. By then my BLM was 40 already, and I was asked to get it to 60 for the airship fight.

It became a point of pride for me after that to take my BLM into the airship fight at 60 cap. I helped many people over the hump - someone who had failed it ten times was able to get past it finally on the run I went in. It wasn't just that I knew that fight and was able to do my own job, but I was able to direct traffic a bit and keep everyone calm too. Quite a few times we won on our "dry run" because I'd rehearsed it all so much with everyone else.



well there you go.. thats how CoP was "easy" you basically leveled the jobs required to make it eay... me and my group did do that (and we started from the promies all the way to sea (after that time conflicts came into play and some did it on their own/with other groups and some redid it to help the members of their old static get em.. but the fights after sea werent hard anyway since they werent capped so everything at that point was irrelevant)... we got to Sea with the jobs we had leveled, non of which happened to be nin /nin or smn, and we werent gonna level jobs just to make it "easy" when we were sure SE didnt make the expansion soley for nins and summoers to be the only jobs capable of beating them, and we sure as **** proved it..

heck I was a thf in CoP.. probably the most "useless" job FOR CoP.. yet we got it done (and before you ask.. "how were you a thief but no one in your group had /nin?") easy, because I leveled by thf all teh way to 75 with /war (i loved the damage i could do and ii wasnt gonna /nin just so I could take a few less hits.. in fact I didnt level nin sub until toau was about 6 months old... and even then i only ever used it when solo or duoing it.... even in merits i refused to /nin on my thf (or sam which by then was 75 too) /war all the way.
#66 Dec 21 2012 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
It was easy drop it already, most people beat it with that setting, because it was the most optimal setting, like any boss out there, there is an optimal way of killing it, now if you go out of your way to discard such ways or methods and do it your own way, then pat yourself on the back, but that does not make it "Harder" you made it harder, like when you play an RPG and you do low level runs... Does it make the game harder ? Yes! Is the game hard ? No... You made it hard by handicaping yourself HUGE DIFFERENCE!
____________________________
MUTED
#67 Dec 21 2012 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? If in virtually any RPG you take on a level 50 boss with a level 60 team, it's going to be easy. If you do it with a level 40 team, it'll be hard. There was no "right" team for CoP... there was just people choosing an easy strategy because it didn't require them to think or take risks, and then there were people going in with whatever reasonable party they could put together, which was surely the way that SE intended.

One man's "handicapping/overhunting" is another man's "overleveling/underhunting".
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#68 Dec 21 2012 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
****
4,957 posts
Ostia wrote:
It was easy drop it already, most people beat it with that setting, because it was the most optimal setting, like any boss out there, there is an optimal way of killing it, now if you go out of your way to discard such ways or methods and do it your own way, then pat yourself on the back, but that does not make it "Harder" you made it harder, like when you play an RPG and you do low level runs... Does it make the game harder ? Yes! Is the game hard ? No... You made it hard by handicaping yourself HUGE DIFFERENCE!




lol going out of your wy to make it difficult? No Im sorry but do yo know the definition of "going out of your way" to do something? the example you gave about beating an RPG at lower levels of ppl who beat the original FF with an all white mage group, THAT indeed would be called challenging yourself or "going out of your way" to make it hard... but if youre playing the game normally, not spending minute sin an area grinding to over level yourself, and only participating in the fights you run into trying to get from point A to point B then youre playing the game normally.. and while playing it normally if you still see game over screen at every other boss. Id say its definitely a hard game on its own (as opposed to a game where you could beta the whole thing just tapping X with your **** and the only way youd see a game over screen is if you literally stood there and TRIED to die.. which would be the case with a few games i could name)

now since you like to use the term "going on of your way" let me give you an example of doing JUST that in regards to FFXI. A great example of going out of your way would be taking the hours or day required to level the "correct" jobs, jobs that you dont even give a crap about, for the sole purpose of beating CoP/making it "easy" doing all that JUST for one set of mission is the very definition of going out of your way... now if you already had those jobs levied PRIOR to CoP then by all means yes, use them, but if you start leveling them JUST to do that, then you are indeed going out of your way.
#69KingAlkaiser, Posted: Dec 22 2012 at 12:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) if this turns out to be another WoW clone, or final fantasy 1.0 with quests added and minor things I am not even going to bother with it anymore no matter how shiny they make it look.
#70 Dec 22 2012 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Kachi wrote:
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? If in virtually any RPG you take on a level 50 boss with a level 60 team, it's going to be easy. If you do it with a level 40 team, it'll be hard. There was no "right" team for CoP... there was just people choosing an easy strategy because it didn't require them to think or take risks, and then there were people going in with whatever reasonable party they could put together, which was surely the way that SE intended.

One man's "handicapping/overhunting" is another man's "overleveling/underhunting".


Comparing a team of lvl 50 vs a team of 60 is a whole other argument, what i was referring too where teams of the same levels but with different class comps, and if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.
____________________________
MUTED
#71 Dec 22 2012 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:
the biggest problem is everyone is trying to make things over casualized, look at the combat videos the pacing in the game is too fast in my opinion

Another season of: Hunt for the missing logical link
#72 Dec 22 2012 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Ostia wrote:
if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


I almost spit coffee all over my monitor...

AV is a prime example of how not to design an encounter. It wasn't beaten by a normal alliance of players by any other means than exploit with the exception of the merc'd group of kraken club wielding DRKs. AV was broken and it was never fixed. Adjusting the level cap doesn't quite count as buffing/nerfing/adjusting an encounter.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#73 Dec 22 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Ostia wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? If in virtually any RPG you take on a level 50 boss with a level 60 team, it's going to be easy. If you do it with a level 40 team, it'll be hard. There was no "right" team for CoP... there was just people choosing an easy strategy because it didn't require them to think or take risks, and then there were people going in with whatever reasonable party they could put together, which was surely the way that SE intended.

One man's "handicapping/overhunting" is another man's "overleveling/underhunting".


Comparing a team of lvl 50 vs a team of 60 is a whole other argument, what i was referring too where teams of the same levels but with different class comps, and if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


The point is that in any RPG, MMO or otherwise, you can make things easier or harder depending on your configuration. It doesn't matter if its with levels or equipment or abilities. Suggesting that players are handicapping themselves by not choosing the best configuration not only completely misses the point of this kind of game, but also ignores the average player's immediate access to the best traits for a given encounter. In short: the idea that it's only hard if you handicap yourself is just as easily expressed as saying it's only easy if you over-prepare. Both of which are always true in these games and miss the point that for the average group, it was difficult.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#74 Dec 22 2012 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
Kachi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? If in virtually any RPG you take on a level 50 boss with a level 60 team, it's going to be easy. If you do it with a level 40 team, it'll be hard. There was no "right" team for CoP... there was just people choosing an easy strategy because it didn't require them to think or take risks, and then there were people going in with whatever reasonable party they could put together, which was surely the way that SE intended.

One man's "handicapping/overhunting" is another man's "overleveling/underhunting".


Comparing a team of lvl 50 vs a team of 60 is a whole other argument, what i was referring too where teams of the same levels but with different class comps, and if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


The point is that in any RPG, MMO or otherwise, you can make things easier or harder depending on your configuration. It doesn't matter if its with levels or equipment or abilities. Suggesting that players are handicapping themselves by not choosing the best configuration not only completely misses the point of this kind of game, but also ignores the average player's immediate access to the best traits for a given encounter. In short: the idea that it's only hard if you handicap yourself is just as easily expressed as saying it's only easy if you over-prepare. Both of which are always true in these games and miss the point that for the average group, it was difficult.

Difference in difficulty is one thing, but straight-up impossibility is quite another. XI had a huge problem with class balance. Certain classes were just straight-up better than others, and that becomes an issue once you've leveled your job to cap only to find that it's useless. To this day, some classes are significantly better than others, and it boggles my mind as to why anyone would even bother leveling any other class than what currently pushes out the highest DPS.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#75 Dec 22 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
****
4,957 posts
TurboTom wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? If in virtually any RPG you take on a level 50 boss with a level 60 team, it's going to be easy. If you do it with a level 40 team, it'll be hard. There was no "right" team for CoP... there was just people choosing an easy strategy because it didn't require them to think or take risks, and then there were people going in with whatever reasonable party they could put together, which was surely the way that SE intended.

One man's "handicapping/overhunting" is another man's "overleveling/underhunting".


Comparing a team of lvl 50 vs a team of 60 is a whole other argument, what i was referring too where teams of the same levels but with different class comps, and if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


The point is that in any RPG, MMO or otherwise, you can make things easier or harder depending on your configuration. It doesn't matter if its with levels or equipment or abilities. Suggesting that players are handicapping themselves by not choosing the best configuration not only completely misses the point of this kind of game, but also ignores the average player's immediate access to the best traits for a given encounter. In short: the idea that it's only hard if you handicap yourself is just as easily expressed as saying it's only easy if you over-prepare. Both of which are always true in these games and miss the point that for the average group, it was difficult.

Difference in difficulty is one thing, but straight-up impossibility is quite another. XI had a huge problem with class balance. Certain classes were just straight-up better than others, and that becomes an issue once you've leveled your job to cap only to find that it's useless. To this day, some classes are significantly better than others, and it boggles my mind as to why anyone would even bother leveling any other class than what currently pushes out the highest DPS.



the same reason why some ppl play FPSs why others prefer RPGs... because they ENJOY the games (or in thsi case the job/class) and not because they just wanna be the one that hits hardest
#76 Dec 22 2012 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Ostia wrote:
Llester wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
In 2045 a 'boomer' generation will come along and demand a return to those mythical days of necessitated teamwork. They'll demand that the genre once again be called MMORPG rather than the bastardised renaming of MSPORPG* (asterisked to appease the small contingent of hardcore duo-groups).

Of course by then I'll be the crazy old cat lady screaming outside my window. >.<


In a sense, its already happening (hopefully not the cat-lady bit). You can't really roll up into Planetside 2, for instance, without a group. In fact I think they just auto-drop you into a group when you log in. Which makes it great for a casual gamer who prefers grouping. I know, its an MMOFPS, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a "hardcore backlash" in the MMORPG world.

As for the whole "XI was easymode" thing, I suppose it was if you never did Salvage back before it was all figured out. Or CoP, which was in fact challenging back in the day. I get that its become fashionable to say that these things were easy, for some reason. Maybe because a lot of the difficulty was actually just plain bad game design. I could understand that rationale. PW and AV don't even bear mentioning. since they were both clearly examples of Tanaka indulging in sadism, and in no way actually count as anything resembling "game design".

I also totally understand that SE's idea of boss mechanics as compared to Trion's or Blizzard's, is laughable. And if that's the argument, then there's no argument as far as I am concerned. I'm right there with you. But the people dismissing the old game in its entirety as "easymode" are wearing glasses just as tinted as the ones worn by the "XI exp was awesome content" brigade.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 4:20am by Llester


I fully agree with you, and that is my argument, that as far boss mechanics and design SE is a joke when compared to other developers, as far as the entire game being easy mode, i don't agree fully that XI was easy mode, but most of the difficulties came from RNG and huge time sinks, as to opposed to skill gap. Up until Ifrit SE has not been able to design a fight that is engaging and challenging skill wise, they have always been on the extreme, either a tank&spank or a 50 phase boss that has a trillion hp, and has some secret way of killing in which if you miss one step, even if you are in Phase 49, but you did not kill that one rat in phase 1, he will become invincible and wipe you lol.

As far as Planetside 2 well planetside one which i bough and played on release, is a group game, is a massive combat pvp game, totally different from a MMORPG.



XI easymode? No strategy in the boss fights of XI? WTF game were you playing?
#77 Dec 22 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
@TurboTom
Quote:
To this day, some classes are significantly better than others


Hold it. The problem is not that some classes are better, but that some classes are better in the party constellation most players prefer.
#78 Dec 22 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Difference in difficulty is one thing, but straight-up impossibility is quite another. XI had a huge problem with class balance. Certain classes were just straight-up better than others, and that becomes an issue once you've leveled your job to cap only to find that it's useless.


While you're talking about something that is related to what I said, I just want to clarify that you are not disagreeing with anything that I've said.

Quote:
To this day, some classes are significantly better than others, and it boggles my mind as to why anyone would even bother leveling any other class than what currently pushes out the highest DPS.


Though this, I disagree with, or rather, I can explain. Because it's fun? Or at least because the class's concept is cool?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#79 Dec 22 2012 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
The saying in XI is ************ situational."

Whatever the highest DPS job is at the time, or whatever job is perfect for the niche role of favor at the moment, e.g. the bandwagon jobs, change periodically with events. SAM or MNK may have the highest DPS under most circumstances, but just try bringing that job to a low man Abyssea seal party, where the last thing you want is high DPS while you're waiting for the BLM/BRD to cycle through five spells.

Compare that with Neo Nyzul Isle, where the job setup du jour was a few heavy melee, a scholar or two, and a summoner.

Since you aren't limited to one job in XI (and in fact multiple job leveling is really encouraged) your chosen favorite job may not be the "perfect" job for Event X, but it's what everyone is drooling after for Event Y. I never understood the people who refuse to level up more than their preferred job, especially now that exp is so easy to get. Nobody likes being pigeonholed 100% of the time, but nobody likes sitting out on the sidelines all the time either.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#80 Dec 22 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


I almost spit coffee all over my monitor...

AV is a prime example of how not to design an encounter. It wasn't beaten by a normal alliance of players by any other means than exploit with the exception of the merc'd group of kraken club wielding DRKs. AV was broken and it was never fixed. Adjusting the level cap doesn't quite count as buffing/nerfing/adjusting an encounter.


Was i talking about encounter design ? No ? Then i don't know what you going on about, i have stated countless times that AV should never be used as the mesuring stick for difficulty on encounters. What i said was that AV for example was beat using ways that where not the way SE intended for the encounter to be beat, and they fix those ways so that they could not be used anymore... True or false ?
____________________________
MUTED
#81 Dec 22 2012 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Kachi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? If in virtually any RPG you take on a level 50 boss with a level 60 team, it's going to be easy. If you do it with a level 40 team, it'll be hard. There was no "right" team for CoP... there was just people choosing an easy strategy because it didn't require them to think or take risks, and then there were people going in with whatever reasonable party they could put together, which was surely the way that SE intended.

One man's "handicapping/overhunting" is another man's "overleveling/underhunting".


Comparing a team of lvl 50 vs a team of 60 is a whole other argument, what i was referring too where teams of the same levels but with different class comps, and if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


The point is that in any RPG, MMO or otherwise, you can make things easier or harder depending on your configuration. It doesn't matter if its with levels or equipment or abilities. Suggesting that players are handicapping themselves by not choosing the best configuration not only completely misses the point of this kind of game, but also ignores the average player's immediate access to the best traits for a given encounter. In short: the idea that it's only hard if you handicap yourself is just as easily expressed as saying it's only easy if you over-prepare. Both of which are always true in these games and miss the point that for the average group, it was difficult.


You just said it, in an RPG, MMO or otherwise, you can make things either easier of harder depending your configuration.... That is what i said. Also what is the point of a game ? To have fun ? To compete ? To meet other people ? To complete all content ? It is all subjective, there is no right way to play a game, if you have fun playing only one class, props to you, but do not claim the game to be hard because you chose to play only one class, that is pure *********
____________________________
MUTED
#82 Dec 22 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
Rinsui wrote:
@TurboTom
Quote:
To this day, some classes are significantly better than others


Hold it. The problem is not that some classes are better, but that some classes are better in the party constellation most players prefer.

That's entirely untrue. When I resubbed in July, I watched countless BSTs solo abyssea bosses. Show me another DPS class that can do that as effortlessly as them? That's the sort of better that I'm talking about.

When I stopped playing in 2010, THF wasn't invited to anything because they couldn't put up numbers like SAM could. Lots of this had to do with gear, sure, but if you're creating classes that are clearly better than others, why put them in the game in the first place?
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#83 Dec 22 2012 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
Ostia wrote:
do not claim the game to be hard because you chose to play only one class, that is pure bullsh*t.

What are you implying by that? Leveling more classes would make the game easier for him because he'd have the "right" job for the situation? Personally, this is where I have a problem with XI's design. There was a point where PLD and NIN swapped places in the race for the "best" tank, and not even by a small amount, and this penalized players for not leveling the "right" tank job.

I don't have a problem with certain classes being slightly better than others, it's bound to happen, but when you create situations where certain classes become useless in certain situations, you need to re-evaluate your class balance.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#84 Dec 23 2012 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:
When I stopped playing in 2010, THF wasn't invited to anything because they couldn't put up numbers like SAM could.

Yes. But the "function" of THF never was to deal the highest damage, was it?
#85 Dec 23 2012 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Unexpectedly, it didn't have much to do with stealing things, either XD
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 Dec 23 2012 at 5:19 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


I almost spit coffee all over my monitor...

AV is a prime example of how not to design an encounter. It wasn't beaten by a normal alliance of players by any other means than exploit with the exception of the merc'd group of kraken club wielding DRKs. AV was broken and it was never fixed. Adjusting the level cap doesn't quite count as buffing/nerfing/adjusting an encounter.


Was i talking about encounter design ? No ? Then i don't know what you going on about, i have stated countless times that AV should never be used as the mesuring stick for difficulty on encounters. What i said was that AV for example was beat using ways that where not the way SE intended for the encounter to be beat, and they fix those ways so that they could not be used anymore... True or false ?

Actually, yes.. you are. Buffs and nerfs are direct consequence of encounter design. Think about that for a moment. You say it should never be used as a measuring stick now, but in your post you said it was a "prime example". Make up your mind.

Bottom line: They didn't fix AV. After they removed the exploits, it was still broken.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#87 Dec 23 2012 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
When I stopped playing in 2010, THF wasn't invited to anything because they couldn't put up numbers like SAM could.

Yes. But the "function" of THF never was to deal the highest damage, was it?


The function of THF was to stand around outside alliance until whatever HNM you were fighting was brought down to 1%. You were then invited in to poke at the mob doing 3 damage for the next 20 minutes until finally the HNM fell over dead of boredom. Secondary duties included being harassed for not having your 60m Thief Knife and gauntlets that never dropped, as well as being scapegoat for 0.5% loot drop rates.

At least everyone liked them as a subjob...
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#88 Dec 23 2012 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
THF's other function was hate control - many of their abilities are about applying extra enmity to tanks, and removing it from other players. A good SATA WS on a single mob would ensure hate was glued to the tank until it was dead.

These days, THF/NIN is one of the preferred tanks in Abyssea seal/gem parties. (NIN/DNC and MNK/DNC are acceptable too.) A THF/DNC can solo many NMs just about as effectively as the BST can. Since the mechanics of Treasure Hunter are less ambiguous and now we know that multiple THFs can stack on extra TH and the longer they fight the monster the more TH goes on it, it's not uncommon to have a couple of THFs whacking at a NM the entire HNM fight to get that sweet sweet Treasure Hunter 10 proc.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#89 Dec 23 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
Ahh so they did finally get that all figured out. I left in late 2010 or early 2011, and it was still believed that only 1 TH would be active and highest took priority.
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#90 Dec 23 2012 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
catwho wrote:
THF's other function was hate control - many of their abilities are about applying extra enmity to tanks, and removing it from other players. A good SATA WS on a single mob would ensure hate was glued to the tank until it was dead.

These days, THF/NIN is one of the preferred tanks in Abyssea seal/gem parties. (NIN/DNC and MNK/DNC are acceptable too.) A THF/DNC can solo many NMs just about as effectively as the BST can. Since the mechanics of Treasure Hunter are less ambiguous and now we know that multiple THFs can stack on extra TH and the longer they fight the monster the more TH goes on it, it's not uncommon to have a couple of THFs whacking at a NM the entire HNM fight to get that sweet sweet Treasure Hunter 10 proc.


All valid points, but since he was talking about THF being invited to things I assumed he meant endgame activities.

As for the TH10 stack.... something something, placebo, something...

I wouldn't really say that TH was demystified. You can say that you saw a shiny proc and you're told that TH has raised a level, but there is no solid info on exactly what that means.


Edited, Dec 23rd 2012 1:15pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#91 Dec 23 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
Ahh so they did finally get that all figured out. I left in late 2010 or early 2011, and it was still believed that only 1 TH would be active and highest took priority.


The highest TH gets the initial hit (most THFs are going to have a base TH6 now - 3 from traits, 3 from gear.) After that, there is a random chance that any further TH added in will apply another level of TH to the mob, with lower TH levels having a reduced chance of adding to it, and higher TH levels having a much greater chance of adding to it. So two TH6 thfs wailing on a monster can get it to TH 10 or 11 before it's dead. (SE also warned that stripping off your TH gear reduces the odds of an increase, since it puts you back at bare trait levels, so we're back to poking stuff with Thief's Knife in offhand again....)

The complaint was that THF didn't get invited to endgame events except to poke the monster once and then go hide in a corner. Now a THF is encouraged to stay engaged continuously for all but the deadliest HNMs, actively working to help with enmity control (a well placed Collaborator can save a nuke heavy BLM's life) and popping off SATAs just like old times.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#92 Dec 23 2012 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
catwho wrote:
The highest TH gets the initial hit (most THFs are going to have a base TH6 now - 3 from traits, 3 from gear.) After that, there is a random chance that any further TH added in will apply another level of TH to the mob, with lower TH levels having a reduced chance of adding to it, and higher TH levels having a much greater chance of adding to it. So two TH6 thfs wailing on a monster can get it to TH 10 or 11 before it's dead. (SE also warned that stripping off your TH gear reduces the odds of an increase, since it puts you back at bare trait levels, so we're back to poking stuff with Thief's Knife in offhand again....)


The problem is, no one knows exactly what increasing TH level does. Almost everyone agrees that the trait (ex. TH1 sub trait vs TH2 ect.) is more potent, but beyond TH6 proc the results are so varied even on large sample sizes that it's not even considered worth it.

SE is always trying to be super secretive and can't just come out and say something like "Increasing TH to level x gives you a chance to receive any drop. Increasing to level y increases your chance of receiving the more rare drops by a certain amount. Increasing to level z increases your chance of adding a bonus drop slot." **** can't be as simple as that with them for some reason Smiley: lol
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#93 Dec 23 2012 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
catwho wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Ahh so they did finally get that all figured out. I left in late 2010 or early 2011, and it was still believed that only 1 TH would be active and highest took priority.


The highest TH gets the initial hit (most THFs are going to have a base TH6 now - 3 from traits, 3 from gear.) After that, there is a random chance that any further TH added in will apply another level of TH to the mob, with lower TH levels having a reduced chance of adding to it, and higher TH levels having a much greater chance of adding to it. So two TH6 thfs wailing on a monster can get it to TH 10 or 11 before it's dead. (SE also warned that stripping off your TH gear reduces the odds of an increase, since it puts you back at bare trait levels, so we're back to poking stuff with Thief's Knife in offhand again....)

The complaint was that THF didn't get invited to endgame events except to poke the monster once and then go hide in a corner. Now a THF is encouraged to stay engaged continuously for all but the deadliest HNMs, actively working to help with enmity control (a well placed Collaborator can save a nuke heavy BLM's life) and popping off SATAs just like old times.


Well now I'm just upset. I loved when they gave me Collaborator, but I was not happy with the prospects of THF going into the LVL cap increase. I had my SAM and BRD, but hated lvling so much that I called it quits. Now I kind of wish I had stayed ><
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#94 Dec 23 2012 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
You can always come back and kill some time before 2.0! I think the Abyssea collection is on sale for $10 or so on Amazon right now.

Leveling isn't the same either. It's a joke to get all 20 jobs to level 99 now. I mean, I did it. 300,000 exp/hour isn't unheard of in a particularly rocking Abyssea party, and 100K/hour is more or less the baseline in a bad party once all the lights are capped.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#95 Dec 23 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
Ehh, I dunno. Even with the ridiculous exp, I don't want to try n build the same jobs up again. Toofar and Rafoot had their heyday. Best not disturb them Smiley: tongue
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#96 Dec 24 2012 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


I almost spit coffee all over my monitor...

AV is a prime example of how not to design an encounter. It wasn't beaten by a normal alliance of players by any other means than exploit with the exception of the merc'd group of kraken club wielding DRKs. AV was broken and it was never fixed. Adjusting the level cap doesn't quite count as buffing/nerfing/adjusting an encounter.


Was i talking about encounter design ? No ? Then i don't know what you going on about, i have stated countless times that AV should never be used as the mesuring stick for difficulty on encounters. What i said was that AV for example was beat using ways that where not the way SE intended for the encounter to be beat, and they fix those ways so that they could not be used anymore... True or false ?

Actually, yes.. you are. Buffs and nerfs are direct consequence of encounter design. Think about that for a moment. You say it should never be used as a measuring stick now, but in your post you said it was a "prime example". Make up your mind.

Bottom line: They didn't fix AV. After they removed the exploits, it was still broken.


A prime example of SE fixing and encounter when they felt it was not being completed as they envisioned, or as they intended SE will fix that rather quickly. That is for all that i used AV as an example, i was never discussing the mechanics or the design of AV, i was talking about how SE will fix an encounter if it was not working as intended.
____________________________
MUTED
#97 Dec 24 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


I almost spit coffee all over my monitor...

AV is a prime example of how not to design an encounter. It wasn't beaten by a normal alliance of players by any other means than exploit with the exception of the merc'd group of kraken club wielding DRKs. AV was broken and it was never fixed. Adjusting the level cap doesn't quite count as buffing/nerfing/adjusting an encounter.


Was i talking about encounter design ? No ? Then i don't know what you going on about, i have stated countless times that AV should never be used as the mesuring stick for difficulty on encounters. What i said was that AV for example was beat using ways that where not the way SE intended for the encounter to be beat, and they fix those ways so that they could not be used anymore... True or false ?

Actually, yes.. you are. Buffs and nerfs are direct consequence of encounter design. Think about that for a moment. You say it should never be used as a measuring stick now, but in your post you said it was a "prime example". Make up your mind.

Bottom line: They didn't fix AV. After they removed the exploits, it was still broken.


A prime example of SE fixing and encounter when they felt it was not being completed as they envisioned, or as they intended SE will fix that rather quickly. That is for all that i used AV as an example, i was never discussing the mechanics or the design of AV, i was talking about how SE will fix an encounter if it was not working as intended.


It was never 'fixed' Ostia.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#98 Dec 24 2012 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
if SE had intended for X content to be beat in a certain way, they would have buffed/nerfed/adjust said content to be done that way, for that is what they do, when something is not working as intended they nerf or fix it AV is a prime example.


I almost spit coffee all over my monitor...

AV is a prime example of how not to design an encounter. It wasn't beaten by a normal alliance of players by any other means than exploit with the exception of the merc'd group of kraken club wielding DRKs. AV was broken and it was never fixed. Adjusting the level cap doesn't quite count as buffing/nerfing/adjusting an encounter.


Was i talking about encounter design ? No ? Then i don't know what you going on about, i have stated countless times that AV should never be used as the mesuring stick for difficulty on encounters. What i said was that AV for example was beat using ways that where not the way SE intended for the encounter to be beat, and they fix those ways so that they could not be used anymore... True or false ?

Actually, yes.. you are. Buffs and nerfs are direct consequence of encounter design. Think about that for a moment. You say it should never be used as a measuring stick now, but in your post you said it was a "prime example". Make up your mind.

Bottom line: They didn't fix AV. After they removed the exploits, it was still broken.


A prime example of SE fixing and encounter when they felt it was not being completed as they envisioned, or as they intended SE will fix that rather quickly. That is for all that i used AV as an example, i was never discussing the mechanics or the design of AV, i was talking about how SE will fix an encounter if it was not working as intended.


It was never 'fixed' Ostia.


They never fixed the exploits ? I am not talking about balancing the encounter, but i was under the impression that once it was beaten using an exploit it was patched.
____________________________
MUTED
#99 Dec 25 2012 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
They added a mechanic to curb the exploit people were using where they would pull the mob to a wall where a small alliance of casters could nuke away from the other side without having to worry about being in range of any of AV's spells or abilities. In essence, AV was on a leash to prevent kiting. Not nearly the same as "buffed/nerfed/adjusted". This adjustment didn't fix the issue that people couldn't defeat the mob as intended because it remained broken.

I'll never discredit them on weaving together great story content, but SE has a track record when it comes to poor encounter design.

What did they do for an encore? Enter Pandemonium Warden...

[Insert comment about 1337 endgame LS fighting PW for 20 hours and being forced to concede due to falling asleep, physical illness, ect. here]
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#100 Dec 25 2012 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Well i guess i worded my argument wrong, when i mentioned AV i was never implying that it was a great boss mechanic boss fight or anything along the lines, i was referring to how SE was quick to fix the encounter when it was being tackled in a way they did not intend the encounter to be tackled, now if that means the encounter was still insanely stupidly hard and mind boggling badly designed is another story.

Hopefully SE has learned from PW and AV and will not bring an encounter like that into ARR.... The game really does not needs the flack they got from those 2 encounters.
____________________________
MUTED
#101 Dec 25 2012 at 5:27 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
2,045 posts
The mistake a lot of old school XI players are making is simply that, this game isn't aimed at you.

It's aimed at the new generation of mmo players, they don't like forced party play or grinding. That's why XIV will be more like WoW then FFXI, like it or not that's just how it is.
____________________________
BANNED
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)