Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Alpha Video #7 - Levequests and Party CombatFollow

#52 Dec 20 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Default
*
88 posts
For everyone who keeps complaining about the mob flinching here's a reminder on how it looked early on in final fantasy xi (during the Beta) on a malboro.

http://youtu.be/2s7WQCzPGEE



Vs How it looked later on (Same mob at around 4:15)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlmiBlQFf9M














Edited, Dec 20th 2012 2:47pm by Thelastremainingintime
#53 Dec 20 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
Guru
***
1,310 posts
Satisiun wrote:
I am bringing all this up because what's the difference between turning to a Wiki for a walkthrough, and seeing a highlighted point where you need to go to next?


His superior keyword search skillz will go to waste. Won't someone lament for the googlers among us? Smiley: clown
#54 Dec 20 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Just my opinion (obviously) but it looks a bit silly with the larger enemies recoiling after every hit.
____________________________


#55 Dec 20 2012 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
*
151 posts
If I were a blind person I'd swear I was hearing something out of Star Wars... between all the laser sounding effects, the seriously over-the-top swirling effects, and the mob looking seizures... I'm getting iffy.

Cure1 (bleep bleep bleeepp de toooo shoooooooo.. ) (hurricane effect!!!!!!!) .....Heals 32 hp!!

But in all honesty Im holding judgement until Beta. If this crap still stinks in beta, not falling for it again SE. Everything else looks much improved besides battles. Ready to see the new desert of Ul'dah already!!! Soo hoping its waay more like Altep was... as far as sand dunes as far as you can see in places.



____________________________


#56 Dec 20 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
334 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I just don't want to lose the utility of party based progression to quest based easy mode, and if it isn't balanced correctly that's exactly what we will get.

So you mean unbalanced? If questing alone gets you anywhere close to the same rate of exp as grouping does, then most people are probably going to go that route.


Eh, after rereading what I wrote, maybe my meaning isn't clear. There is a lot of discussion about quest-based leveling similar to WoW. If that's all there is, that sounds sh*tty to me. Leveling up via quests in WoW quests just felt like easy-mode. And extremely boring to be honest. Just my opinion, and admittedly, I prefer party xp over questing anyhow.

And, although questing in WoW led me through the world, I felt no connection to that world. In XI, xp parties at a variety of camps led me through the world. And I felt a connection to each and every one of those zones. I knew where all the best camps were, where all the NM's popped, outpost locations, dungeon entrances, shortcuts, and all kinds of additional lore (headstones for CN map says hi) that made those zones living and breathing places. Not someplace I passed through while collecting 10 wolf hides. Interestingly enough, I mentioned a quest in this response- a quest that I chose to do because it had meaning to me. I was a map collector. I wouldn't have done that quest for a pair of gloves and 1500xp, nor would I have enjoyed earning my map if it was the result of collecting 10 wolf hides. I don't inherently dislike questing, I just enjoyed its implementation much more in XI than I did when I played WoW (albeit briefly).

Some people will respond with "leveling up via xp parties is boring and easy mode too". I disagree. For one, there is the social aspect which IMO is so much more satisfying (to me) than just solo questing. When I quest, I talk to my linkshell/guild. And, don't get me wrong, I like them like them. But I already know everyone. When I xp in a party setting, I talk to my party members. And I meet new people. That's a nice thing. Not to mention I am exposed to new ways to use jobs and abilities (at least in a new game like ARR will be). These are big pros to me.

Secondly, (especially if you let me pull Smiley: sly) party xp has variable difficulty. It doesn't have to be easy mode. You can push yourself and your fellow party members if everyone is on board. And EVERYONE remembers what it was like to catch an invite to a truly awesome xp party. A well-oiled machine that mowed down gobbies like they were defenseless kittens. I know there were the inevitable "3 hrs lfg, go to godforsaken camp in middle of nowhere, wipe on 2nd mob, WHM force dc's" but that really was an exception that was paired pretty evenly in frequency with the uber xp party.

A quest has one difficulty. It provides no choice (unless you are selecting gloves vs. cloak). It offers no new social interactions unless you count NPC's. I really don't see the upside beyond requiring less time from people with busy lives. Admittedly, xp was a grind in XI. But that wasn't due to partying for xp, it was due to the insane disparity between xp rewarded per kill vs. xp needed to progress in level. Beyond that it seems superior in every way.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Sky was also really fun if you could stomach the time-sink aspect and sh*tty drop rates. But I liked the content and, before everyone was merited out the ***, it was quite challenging. But people also complained about this.

I liked Sky too, but it was easy to see why people ******** When it was still somewhat new it was crowded and people didn't like fighting over NMs for triggers.

I honestly don't think it was challenging outside of Kirin though. The most challenging thing about Sky (assuming you had mages who could stun effectively and a decent tank) was actually getting to the trigger NMs. Oh, that and the Kirin room teleporter... {Impossible to Gauge}.


Yeah, those are all good points. Once you learned the mechanics of the fights and the potential tricky spots (Byakko's triple attack with shadows down...) they weren't hard fights. I think i just really have rose-colored glasses for sky (and FFXI honestly) because I felt like the pros far exceeded the cons and I learned early in life that nothing is perfect, and things are a lot more enjoyable if you focus on what is good rather than what is bad. I felt like the scales were tipping way farther towards the good, so I just rolled with it.

Catwho wrote:

We had a system for the teleporter, in which you'd run screaming down the hall without sneak on to form a train, launch yourself onto the platform, and land on (hopefully) the Kirin floor slightly bloodied and bruised.


Classic, and so, so true...

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 3:37pm by ChaChaJaJa
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#57 Dec 20 2012 at 2:41 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,232 posts
Right there under the video post:

The battle system is currently undergoing significant revision, including changes to all damage algorithms and the claim system.
____________________________
Character: Urzol Thrush
Server: Ultros
FC: The Kraken Club

Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#58 Dec 20 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Default
*
88 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Just my opinion (obviously) but it looks a bit silly with the larger enemies recoiling after every hit.


If my ffxi example wasn't enough..

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/59205-Alpha-First-Look-Video-7-%E2%80%93-Levequests-and-Party-Combat/page14

Bottom post stating that this will be worked on by the time Beta hits.
#59 Dec 20 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,773 posts
It's level 20 content. So Jobs, full combos, and most importantly, the limit break system are all not implemented here. Level 20 combat, yah, looks a bit zergish against... well, random mobs outside. This isn't abnormal, everyone who hated FFXI's mob grinding complained about this, and players hated Levequests typicality to begin with.

I warned people before Alpha that their expectations of how grandiose the systems would change were too high, and not once have we seen any of what made 1.xx version better post 1.21. As far as monster flinching, as said before, it was toned too high in FFXI's beta too. They've already made a reply in the official boards stating they're going to tone it down on larger monsters.

In the end the video for me was uninteresting but not disconcerting. I'm a level 50 Lancer/Dragoon. I want to see how that plays in party, not how classes we've already seen before fight less than halfway up the scale.
#60 Dec 20 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Atkascha wrote:
I can't find it in me to be critical. Considering that Yoshi has said he envisions 2.0 to be an "amusement park," I hope to have plenty of other things to do so as to not focus on combat. The only person in this thread so far who has admitted to liking the video got rated down to oblivion. Things like that remind me why I've hardly ever posted here after being a member for almost seven years.


Who?
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#61 Dec 20 2012 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/59211-7th-Alpha-video-Levequests-and-Party-Combat?p=923866&viewfull=1#post923866

Camate wrote:
Greetings!

In regards to all of the comments about how the enemies visibly react to player attacks, we'll be adjusting these animations around the time the Beta Test begins.

Specifically we are looking into addressing it in the following ways:
  • Vary the damage animation according to the amount of damage inflicted.
  • Tone down the damage animation for large monsters.

____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#62 Dec 20 2012 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
*
88 posts
I don't know, I keep looking at this video and thinking to myself.. "What is everyone talking about? This is the dumbed down version of the game and it looks boss."

There are not that many abilities or flexibility to be had with 3 classes at level 20, which is all we've been shown. Also not that i've played 14 (unfortunately due to the beyond terrible reviews and criticism) I heard that for ranged attack there was no auto attack whatsoever. Well from what i'm hearing and seeing (and no one's mentioned it in this thread) it has been added.

Awesome looking gameplay, music (which strikes me as something from fft or hitoshi sakimoto in general) and more to come and this isn't even the finished product, I don't see how anyone could not be hyped.

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 7:14pm by Thelastremainingintime
#63 Dec 20 2012 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
#64 Dec 20 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
**
562 posts
So ... with the risk of sounding really ignorant....
Is the video sped up? Those fights seemed to be moving awfully fast. Not that I have a problem with a faster fighting style than FFXI at all ( I mostly played as a Dragoon, you could take out the garbage between some swings ) but the video seemed really fast. Almost too fast to pay attention to all the things going on around you.
____________________________
The more I train, the harder I get. The harder I get, the more lethal I am. The more lethal I am, the fewer opponents. The fewer opponents, the less to lose. The less to lose, the more I let up. The more I let up, the more room for mistakes. The more room for mistakes, the more I train.

#65 Dec 20 2012 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
LebargeX wrote:
Right there under the video post:

The battle system is currently undergoing significant revision, including changes to all damage algorithms and the claim system.


Considering most of the complaints are about the combat system, I hope they aren't emphasizing damage algorithms and the claim system. As a qualifier to that statement, if they're adjusting the algorithms to bring a meaningful balance between abilities--such that there are actually significant strategic decision to make between which one will be best--then that could make combat much more interesting than it appears on the surface.

Hyrist wrote:
It's level 20 content. So Jobs, full combos, and most importantly, the limit break system are all not implemented here. Level 20 combat, yah, looks a bit zergish against... well, random mobs outside. This isn't abnormal, everyone who hated FFXI's mob grinding complained about this, and players hated Levequests typicality to begin with.


Well, you've got games like GW2 showing just how desirable it is to give players a lot of abilities early on, and I hope XIV will follow suit.

Quote:
Admittedly, xp was a grind in XI. But that wasn't due to partying for xp, it was due to the insane disparity between xp rewarded per kill vs. xp needed to progress in level. Beyond that it seems superior in every way.


Completely agree.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Dec 20 2012 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Llester wrote:
catwho wrote:
We had a system for the teleporter, in which you'd run screaming down the hall without sneak on to form a train, launch yourself onto the platform, and land on (hopefully) the Kirin floor slightly bloodied and bruised.

Only worked half the time (naturally) but it was fun to do all the same.


i lol'd.


PORT WHEN THE GAMECLOCK IS ON EVEN NUMBERS FTW!!1 IT WORRRRRKKKS!!!1


Even for male characters, odd for female characters!
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#67 Dec 20 2012 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,675 posts
It doesn't look too bad, lol.

Guildleves are improved but still kinda meh. In fact soloing seems a little slow and boring, but I really wasn't expecting much...I get back to this later.

However Guildleves (I'm assuming) are now going to be what they were supposed to be for; not for grinding, but for quick casual fights when you have 10-20 min to play.

Otherwise, (I'm assuming) that there will be quest chains to progress (a la WoW) that progress your character and story. And most people will be doing "regular" quests.

Although I like the fighting in "twitch" games like GW2 (which is fun), the fighting in FFXIV doesn't have to be like that to be fun. For me, it has to be 1. Strategic, 2. Or just "good enough" to supplement other areas of progression, like gear, character development or story. It's just that those other things have to be really, really good.

The deliberate pace of FFXI, made every hit count, or at least it seemed like it did.

Again, like it was mentioned, this is just level 20 and usually you don't even have a 1/3 of your skills yet; not to mention the lack of limit breaks and other special moves.
#68 Dec 20 2012 at 7:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I wouldn't even consider GW2 to be twitch fighting. For the better part, you spam your abilities when they're up for maximum damage, and on occasion you roll out of the way, which I understand is actually just a temporary invulnerability and not true dodging.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Dec 20 2012 at 7:57 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Wint wrote:
I can't remember the last positive thing you had to say. Are you even planning on trying 2.0?


I thought this was a discussion forum, not a compliment board. :P

In all seriousness, though, when something is implemented that I find praiseworthy, I mention that, too; it's just that I happen to be someone who is not at all impressed with the direction FFXIV took and is currently taking. I feel that it is a gross mistake to court a massive casual audience (like almost every other fantasy-themed MMORPG out there) instead of appealing to a smaller, but very committed playerbase. I do not think that SE will succeed in this endeavour or that the game will ultimately be much more appealing to people than a dozen other MMORPGs they (or I) could play. That said, I can understand why others believe the exact opposite given the game's dire 1.0 state and extreme financial losses.

Essentially it's a matter of expressing views and reading others' opinions as they do the same. If I only wanted agreement, I'd just read dev. blogs or facebook announcements and not bother with a dedicated unofficial forum. It's in hosting other (sometimes contrary) opinions that sites like Zam prove their worth.

P.S. - And of course I'm going to give 2.0 a try; my spouse and I each have a copy of the game, and it would seem like a colossal waste not to look at this upcoming version. As I said, it's about hope, you know. :)
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#70 Dec 20 2012 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Wint wrote:
I can't remember the last positive thing you had to say. Are you even planning on trying 2.0?


I thought this was a discussion forum, not a compliment board. :P


You are totally welcome to your opinion, I wasn't trying to imply you couldn't express yourself Smiley: smile
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#71 Dec 20 2012 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
I get that a lot of people are saying "This is still alpha!"...do we not remember 1.0 alpha AND beta? I know everyone thinks SE has learned their lesson, but I'm on the side of caution for this one, they've screwed up too many things in recent memory to just say "It's alpha!".
____________________________

#72 Dec 20 2012 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I get that a lot of people are saying "This is still alpha!"...do we not remember 1.0 alpha AND beta? I know everyone thinks SE has learned their lesson, but I'm on the side of caution for this one, they've screwed up too many things in recent memory to just say "It's alpha!".


To be fair, this alpha looks way better than 1.0's alpha.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#73 Dec 20 2012 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Fanboys like to fool themselves, back then it was "It's just alpha" couple of months later "It's just beta, they are holding 99% of the content for release" to at release "Omg this game is a masterpiece of you cant see that you dont know MMO'S GO BACK TO WOW!1!1!1!" to after SE declared the game sucks "Well i don't care what SE says this is the greates game evah! it will DUSTROY WOW! everybody loves grinds" then when SE made tanaka a scapegoat "Oh well see it was tanakas fault for not delivering XI-2, this new kid that makes card games will deliver XI-2" to "Oh we love yoshida he talks to us, and you know writes letters that say nothing at all but "We cannot talk about this, just give me the moneys and STFU!" And that is at the stage we are currently lol

I just find it funny how people that where utterly wrong, and defended 1.0 to death..... Still try to talk like they know what they are talking about... I mean 1.0 just needed one golden patch.... yet it literally is getting wiped out from existence and redone.... Yeah one patch away Smiley: lol
____________________________
MUTED
#74 Dec 20 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,773 posts
Kachi wrote:


Well, you've got games like GW2 showing just how desirable it is to give players a lot of abilities early on, and I hope XIV will follow suit.


You're speaking to a Guild Wars 2 player, and the novelty wears off very quickly for many players once they realize those skills are pretty much the sum of what they receive, outside of what traits do to change them. (Not to mention that game defines the term "Zerg!" in all content outside of TPvP and dungeons)

Not that I disagree with the concept of desirable skills, but Guild Wars 2 is in no way a messiah of MMOs. Their sense of progression is heavily muted as well as the sense of accomplishment. Also keep in mind that Guild Wars 2 is a buy to play model, there's no incentive for commitment here because they have their payment - they can provide the bulk of the flashy content all at once and just hope you'll occasionally buy off their micro-transactions shop for aesthetics and boosters.

Something also needs to be kept in mind here. This was not a display of the depth of combat. This was more or less a display on how the Party UI functions, which isn't half bad, to be honest, though it will take me some getting used to.

My main beef is that I'm not seeing clarity in combos here, from Melee or Magic classes. If they're to be used I'd like their indicators to be clearer.




Edited, Dec 20th 2012 10:18pm by Hyrist
#75 Dec 20 2012 at 9:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Wint wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I get that a lot of people are saying "This is still alpha!"...do we not remember 1.0 alpha AND beta? I know everyone thinks SE has learned their lesson, but I'm on the side of caution for this one, they've screwed up too many things in recent memory to just say "It's alpha!".


To be fair, this alpha looks way better than 1.0's alpha.


Oh I agree, but to think certain things will change just cause this is alpha is my issue. "These animations are weird..." "Relax it's alpha" "This battle looks boring" "It's just alpha!". Then none of this changes, we have disappointed people AGAIN.
____________________________

#76 Dec 20 2012 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,146 posts
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
A quest has one difficulty. It provides no choice (unless you are selecting gloves vs. cloak). It offers no new social interactions unless you count NPC's. I really don't see the upside beyond requiring less time from people with busy lives. Admittedly, xp was a grind in XI. But that wasn't due to partying for xp, it was due to the insane disparity between xp rewarded per kill vs. xp needed to progress in level. Beyond that it seems superior in every way.


You can actually adjust the level of the mobs in guildleves so the point about difficulty doesn't make sense. The whole reason for that is that you can team up to complete them so that kinda poops on the lack of social interaction point, unless you strictly mean forced interaction.

ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I learned early in life that nothing is perfect, and things are a lot more enjoyable if you focus on what is good rather than what is bad.


Right, now translate this idea to your thoughts on questing and you'll be able to come up with a few more benefits people might get from it even if you aren't included. Even though it may not affect you, if you objectively look at the situation then you could probably find more upside than downside.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#77 Dec 20 2012 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,773 posts
Wint wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Wint wrote:
I can't remember the last positive thing you had to say. Are you even planning on trying 2.0?


I thought this was a discussion forum, not a compliment board. :P


You are totally welcome to your opinion, I wasn't trying to imply you couldn't express yourself Smiley: smile


Nope, that'd be my job.

We've heard the skepticism all before. And if you're expecting to be wowed back into playing you're likely never going to subscribe. Which means you're here to gloat about that fact, something I don't care for in the slightest.

We as players like to point to what we like in other games and compare it to what it lacks in before, thinking we can just simply pick and chose our favorite mechanics to make some sort of perfect frankengame, but that's simply not going to happen. Of course that does not prevent doomsayers of Square Enix's demise form pointing out everything that isn't perfect as a means of their failure.

It just does not seem to be enough for people to admit that an imperfect game can appeal to them in other ways than what is being displayed. Again, some hail FFXI, which is deeply flawed and largely criticized by anyone who was not a loyal or on-again-of-again subscriber.

That said, still waiting to see the real meat of this game. Random enemies in low levels (a section of the game you're likely to solo through anyways) isn't what's going to draw players in.
#78 Dec 20 2012 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
334 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
A quest has one difficulty. It provides no choice (unless you are selecting gloves vs. cloak). It offers no new social interactions unless you count NPC's. I really don't see the upside beyond requiring less time from people with busy lives. Admittedly, xp was a grind in XI. But that wasn't due to partying for xp, it was due to the insane disparity between xp rewarded per kill vs. xp needed to progress in level. Beyond that it seems superior in every way.


You can actually adjust the level of the mobs in guildleves so the point about difficulty doesn't make sense. The whole reason for that is that you can team up to complete them so that kinda poops on the lack of social interaction point, unless you strictly mean forced interaction.

ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I learned early in life that nothing is perfect, and things are a lot more enjoyable if you focus on what is good rather than what is bad.


Right, now translate this idea to your thoughts on questing and you'll be able to come up with a few more benefits people might get from it even if you aren't included. Even though it may not affect you, if you objectively look at the situation then you could probably find more upside than downside.


I don't really consider guildleves to be quest based leveling. I was under the impression that they were moving towards the WoW model of quest based leveling, which has 0 in common with guildleves. I could be wrong about what's being implemented though, because I've only been loosely following it due to the fact that it was only in alpha. Of course, if guildleves are the main form of leveling, that won't be much better. When I did guildleves in XIV, I spent more time running back and forth than I did actually engaging a mob. But just to be clear, when I hear "quest-based leveling" I basically think WoW style fetch quests, not guildleves (which were almost as boring, but you are correct, at least you could set the mobs' level and take a friend...).

Also, I quit playing WoW after a few weeks because I really just didn't enjoy it. I don't bash it or anything, it's just not my flavor. And my original comments weren't to exclude quest-based leveling from ARR, they were just a plea to not have that eliminate the utility of party based leveling by making questing xp so insanely fast and easy (like WoW).
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#79 Dec 20 2012 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Wint wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I get that a lot of people are saying "This is still alpha!"...do we not remember 1.0 alpha AND beta? I know everyone thinks SE has learned their lesson, but I'm on the side of caution for this one, they've screwed up too many things in recent memory to just say "It's alpha!".


To be fair, this alpha looks way better than 1.0's alpha.


Oh I agree, but to think certain things will change just cause this is alpha is my issue. "These animations are weird..." "Relax it's alpha" "This battle looks boring" "It's just alpha!". Then none of this changes, we have disappointed people AGAIN.


I have tried to really avoid that phrase. In fact, when they release these videos I'm more on the "I can't believe this is an alpha" camp. I'm very excited and think everything they're showing is very promising indeed.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#80 Dec 20 2012 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
I feel that it is a gross mistake to court a massive casual audience (like almost every other fantasy-themed MMORPG out there) instead of appealing to a smaller, but very committed playerbase.


How does keeping the subscriber pool to a small band of hardcore players help anyone in any way?

The best thing FFXIV has going for it is that it's a Final Fantasy game, it's online, and there are Final Fantasy fans who would be happy to meet each other, play this game together, and pay a monthly fee to do so. There's no way this should be all about putting in 60 hours a week or GTFO. They should make it fun for those who put in 60 hours a week because they choose to do so, but while also making it appealing for those who just like to experience a online Final Fantasy world at a slow, casual pace so they can meet up with their online friends now and then. By doing so, you keep the population fresh and vibrant (not to mention larger and profitable), there's money to develop new things for the game, and everyone has a better experience all around. This is the way of the MMO in the 21st century.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 2:51am by Xoie
#81 Dec 21 2012 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
26 posts
I seriously can't stress enough that we're seeing Lv20 "content". There's no Jobs available and there's only 3 Classes shown (that's not an accident) LNC, ARC, and CNJ. I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize the video, but we should be clear that we're only seeing a small glimpse of what is hopefully a more robust combat system. It looks really simple right now because most things are pretty simple at lower levels.

If anything, we can blame SE for showing some content that isn't necessarily exciting. Standing in one place whilst fighting one mob is reminiscent of FFXI's leveling, but it just seems a bit bland now, and frankly, lazy. I understand no one wants to "white knight" Alpha/Beta again, but sometimes people do need a friendly reminder that this is actually Alpha, and stuff is being worked on. And despite what happened in v1.0, this is an entirely different team. We can't blame them for the mistakes of others. But I can totally understand being cautious of this whole thing.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 1:21am by DevilFruit
#82 Dec 21 2012 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,146 posts
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I don't really consider guildleves to be quest based leveling. I was under the impression that they were moving towards the WoW model of quest based leveling, which has 0 in common with guildleves.


Participating in any quest that rewards exp is considered quest based leveling in my opinion. You are tasked with something and rewarded upon completion. I guess maybe they're different in that not all quests in WoW are repeatable like leves are. The intent may be different if leves are supposed to supplement some other form of experience gain, but there's really no other difference other than the extra step of initiating the levequest once you get to the designated area.

Unless I'm missing something major, they're pretty much the same thing...
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#83 Dec 21 2012 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
334 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I don't really consider guildleves to be quest based leveling. I was under the impression that they were moving towards the WoW model of quest based leveling, which has 0 in common with guildleves.


Participating in any quest that rewards exp is considered quest based leveling in my opinion. You are tasked with something and rewarded upon completion. I guess maybe they're different in that not all quests in WoW are repeatable like leves are. The intent may be different if leves are supposed to supplement some other form of experience gain, but there's really no other difference other than the extra step of initiating the levequest once you get to the designated area.

Unless I'm missing something major, they're pretty much the same thing...


I don't want this to turn into a semantics argument so I'm going to be careful how I word this. Coming from FFXI, my impression of WoW was that they took all your normal town quests that you would have done to earn fame and various rewards from gil to maps to opening a new job etc, and they made those quests the major vehicle for earning experience points. That's what I was referring to. Besides escort quest or eco-warrior, I did those quests solo, or maybe duo if a ls mate and I decided to fame together. And we did those in an entirely different context than level progression for our characters.

My first impression of guildleves was more like an FoV page. Not exactly, but pretty close in principle. And to be honest, I never once considered guildleves to be quests. The reason I mentioned semantics is because you are using the broadest possible definition of "quest-based leveling" to make your point that they are the same thing, yet I bet if we asked 100 random people who had played XI if they though doing FoV pages was "quest-based leveling" 98 or so would say no. \

And to be honest my original intent is totally lost when we start arguing about definitions.

If the major vehicle for character progression in XIV is kill "6 Coblyns that are annoying the settlers" or "collect 10 Wolf Hides for whatever reason" and the quests are such that their is no extra incentive to team up, ARR will become a game that is played mostly solo to cap and it won't be fun for me. If that's how you prefer to spend your time I won't knock it. But I literally quit WoW because I couldn't stand that I had to solo quests to level. And I know others (mainly people who enjoyed FFXI) who have that same opinion.

Please understand I'm really not trying to argue definitions with you. I'm hoping for a progression structure that encourages grouping. Not requires it like XI did, but not one that abandons it like WoW basically did. Try to find a happy medium. Hence why several of my posts used the word "balance".



Edited, Dec 21st 2012 6:31am by ChaChaJaJa
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#84 Dec 21 2012 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
334 posts
Ok Filthy, I thought about this a bit more on my drive to work. I can see why you are using guildleves as an example of quest-based leveling. Your points fit the bill. So I'll concede that point to you. But it doesn't really address the original concern I posed:

ChaChaJaJa wrote:

If the major vehicle for character progression in XIV is kill "6 Coblyns that are annoying the settlers" or "collect 10 Wolf Hides for whatever reason" and the quests are such that their is no extra incentive to team up, ARR will become a game that is played mostly solo to cap and it won't be fun for me. If that's how you prefer to spend your time I won't knock it. But I literally quit WoW because I couldn't stand that I had to solo quests to level. And I know others (mainly people who enjoyed FFXI) who have that same opinion.

... I'm hoping for a progression structure that encourages grouping. Not requires it like XI did, but not one that abandons it like WoW basically did. Try to find a happy medium. Hence why several of my posts used the word "balance".
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#85 Dec 21 2012 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
@ChaChaJaJa
Perhaps those concerns are unjustified. I cobnsider it likely that quest based leveling will provide enough EXP to keep up, but not enough to eclipse a party doing an (EXP) dungeon run. Because, what gives you the impression that quests do not include dungeons? In fact, we have a precedent for that. As far as I interpret it, Sploshae was intended as an "EXP dungeon". Mobs with progressive difficulty in three layers, and the occasional manageable NM and coffer thrown into it.

Unluckily noone saw what I saw - I think the concept was brilliant, but didn't work because everyone went there solo @50 to kill the NMs and hunt for the coffer keys. Now with caps in place...

P.S.: Both Totorak and Szemael also were brilliant EXP if you did not invincible-train all mobs... which you were forced to do in order to beat the timer. Good idea, bad execution (should be a SE trademark).
#86 Dec 21 2012 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
334 posts
Rinsui wrote:
@ChaChaJaJa
Perhaps those concerns are unjustified. I cobnsider it likely that quest based leveling will provide enough EXP to keep up, but not enough to eclipse a party doing an (EXP) dungeon run. Because, what gives you the impression that quests do not include dungeons? In fact, we have a precedent for that. As far as I interpret it, Sploshae was intended as an "EXP dungeon". Mobs with progressive difficulty in three layers, and the occasional manageable NM and coffer thrown into it.

Unluckily noone saw what I saw - I think the concept was brilliant, but didn't work because everyone went there solo @50 to kill the NMs and hunt for the coffer keys. Now with caps in place...

P.S.: Both Totorak and Szemael also were brilliant EXP if you did not invincible-train all mobs... which you were forced to do in order to beat the timer. Good idea, bad execution (should be a SE trademark).


Good point. And I hope that turns out to be the case for ARR. I am not opposed to solo content at all, I just don't want it to render grouping obsolete.
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#87 Dec 21 2012 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
****
4,146 posts
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Ok Filthy, I thought about this a bit more on my drive to work. I can see why you are using guildleves as an example of quest-based leveling. Your points fit the bill. So I'll concede that point to you. But it doesn't really address the original concern I posed:

ChaChaJaJa wrote:

I'm hoping for a progression structure that encourages grouping. Not requires it like XI did, but not one that abandons it like WoW basically did. Try to find a happy medium. Hence why several of my posts used the word "balance".


How do you encourage grouping without discouraging solo play is my question. I'm not sure there is a way to promote group play fairly outside of just making it fun and engaging. Depending on whether you're a half-full or half-empty kind of person, they're either giving an advantage to groups or putting solo players at a disadvantage.

I would really like to see group play flourish in ARR just like you, I'm just not sure that SE can come up with a way to do it that doesn't make someone feel like they're being overlooked.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#88 Dec 21 2012 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,773 posts
It may be a change of trend in how people play games to be honest.

I hate keep bringing up guild wars 2, but their entire structure tries to encourage the concept of playing together, but the result usually ends up zerging content rather than working with one another. And when you provide alternatives for the solo player to advance, guess what, people tend to solo.

It involves less stress and time to simply solo.

My only standing thought on how to do so perhaps is to provide relevant loot drops for those who chose to group for XP. Say, those who do dungeon quests and parties for XP do not have to spend time re-gearing like solo adventurers do. This could be a way to encourage group leveling without hindering the pacing of leveling directly for the solo camp.
#89 Dec 21 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
The NMs in the video are level 20...

They are NOT level 20 anywhere but in this video.
____________________________


#90 Dec 21 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
**
676 posts
DevilFruit wrote:
I seriously can't stress enough that we're seeing Lv20 "content". There's no Jobs available and there's only 3 Classes shown (that's not an accident) LNC, ARC, and CNJ. I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize the video, but we should be clear that we're only seeing a small glimpse of what is hopefully a more robust combat system. It looks really simple right now because most things are pretty simple at lower levels.

If anything, we can blame SE for showing some content that isn't necessarily exciting. Standing in one place whilst fighting one mob is reminiscent of FFXI's leveling, but it just seems a bit bland now, and frankly, lazy. I understand no one wants to "white knight" Alpha/Beta again, but sometimes people do need a friendly reminder that this is actually Alpha, and stuff is being worked on. And despite what happened in v1.0, this is an entirely different team. We can't blame them for the mistakes of others. But I can totally understand being cautious of this whole thing.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 1:21am by DevilFruit


I can't agree more. I'm trying to avoid saying "it's just alpha," but we will see a lot more content in the beta along with all the classes/jobs. Think about it, how intense is the battle system really going to be if there is no tank class. We really weren't meant to tank on lancer.

Rinsui wrote:
@ChaChaJaJa
Perhaps those concerns are unjustified. I consider it likely that quest based leveling will provide enough EXP to keep up, but not enough to eclipse a party doing an (EXP) dungeon run. Because, what gives you the impression that quests do not include dungeons? In fact, we have a precedent for that. As far as I interpret it, Sploshae was intended as an "EXP dungeon". Mobs with progressive difficulty in three layers, and the occasional manageable NM and coffer thrown into it.

Unluckily noone saw what I saw - I think the concept was brilliant, but didn't work because everyone went there solo @50 to kill the NMs and hunt for the coffer keys. Now with caps in place...

P.S.: Both Totorak and Szemael also were brilliant EXP if you did not invincible-train all mobs... which you were forced to do in order to beat the timer. Good idea, bad execution (should be a SE trademark).



I'm going to jump out on a limb here and say once you've finished all the quests they have available at launch, this will probably be the main route people will go to leveling up. Yoshi has said that the quests will only give a brand new character enough exp to level from 1-50 on 1 class. People will then go to leve quests, dungeon crawling, and exp parties to level up after that. I'm guessing that people are going to want all that gear from the dungeons that they'll end up leveling up in those dungeons while repeating them for all the gear. Also, yoshi has said that they were going to do away with the speed runs for dungeons, so there wont be any reason to hurry through them unless you have no interest in leveling up at all.
____________________________
#91 Dec 21 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
**
793 posts
My 2 cents...

Leves, underhwhelming as always. A good way of soloing/low-manning exp I guess. I'm not against them as they add flexibility. At least they have good music now.

The party play looked really fun. I love how fast it all is. I know the XI combat system is dated, but in comparison it feels like a *much* quicker, better delivered, and prettier version of that system. Excited to see what limit breaks will bring. Could do without the mob spasing though.

Just an aside on GW2: having played about 250 days of it, I can say the combat isn't all that innovative. Its near impossible to plan for a combo in a group setting since its always a cluster****; if you actually manage to land one it's random. Unlike the limit break system, which will likely require the same amount of coordination as skill chains. The majority of abilities are area based, in which case it's dodge dodge dodge. You spend 50% of your time rolling around. The game does make good use of the z-axis, though. Overall, the combat is fairly enjoyable... just not innovative. Really it's just moba combat plunked into an MMO. So I guess the philosophy behind the ARR combat is rather than claiming to redesign the entire thing, they're taking standard combat systems (hot-bar system), refining them, and building in features. To me that doesn't seem like a bad thing.
____________________________
I might be an onion thief, but I'm still a thief.™





#92 Dec 21 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
25 posts
Hyrist wrote:

My only standing thought on how to do so perhaps is to provide relevant loot drops for those who chose to group for XP. Say, those who do dungeon quests and parties for XP do not have to spend time re-gearing like solo adventurers do. This could be a way to encourage group leveling without hindering the pacing of leveling directly for the solo camp.


I agree, part combat should be stressed. A basic idea that could be fleshed out significantly, would be to establish a system similar to Signet and Conquest Points in FFXI. However, you can only accumulate these points when fighting with fellow adventurers (and perhaps, get larger multipliers with larger groups). As such, those that favour group play will always be rewarded with large CP hordes (and quicker XP). As such, by offering competitive gear and faster XP, grouping will provide a much more efficient manner of leveling (even despite the timesink associated with peacing together a party).

Lastly, to really accentuate party play, the zone creation is really critical. If there's an area like crawlers nest, where the entrance is good for lvl 35, then the deeper you go the higher the levels required is. This really drives the party play atmosphere. In such a zone, a pair of lvl 40's could start duo'ing, then as more people enter the party (to accumualte more rewards) the party moves deeper and deeper.
#93 Dec 21 2012 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
562 posts
Hyrist wrote:
It may be a change of trend in how people play games to be honest.

I hate keep bringing up guild wars 2, but their entire structure tries to encourage the concept of playing together, but the result usually ends up zerging content rather than working with one another. And when you provide alternatives for the solo player to advance, guess what, people tend to solo.

It involves less stress and time to simply solo.

My only standing thought on how to do so perhaps is to provide relevant loot drops for those who chose to group for XP. Say, those who do dungeon quests and parties for XP do not have to spend time re-gearing like solo adventurers do. This could be a way to encourage group leveling without hindering the pacing of leveling directly for the solo camp.


I've been thinking of this exact same topic lately. Kudos for bringing it up.

It's the path of least resistance. What we're seeing is given two similar paths for character development, one based in solo-play the other in group, players will gravitate toward solo options more often than not because it is seen as the easier path by a tremendous degree, to the point where group-based play becomes almost non-existent.

There's a lot of modern MMORPGs coming out that are attempting to provide both options for players but they're doing so equally, as one would naturally assume is the best option. The problem is solo play has such a tremendous upswing and positive connotation by default, it's going to overshadow group play tremendously unless it's just completely unfair as to the bonus group play provides, and in doing so MMORPG publisher run the risk of being labeled "old school" in their gameplay design.

One can naturally assume, when presented with a new Online RPG that touts both solo and group-progress oriented gameplay, that the solo option will be the default player choice and drive 99% of the content. Thus comes the inherit problem with group-based content: if it's not the dominate participation choice of the majority of players, it might as well not exist. If it is the dominate participation choice of the community, you are going to be labeled as a casual and new-player unfriendly game.

Thus what we had in FFXIV 1.0. Yes, you could group up for leveling 1-50 and the results were better than solo play, but not to the extent of driving most players to seek out parties. As a result players spent the majority of their time solo leveling, with the odd exp party here and there (but most certainly not anything frequent enough to be relied upon.) Once players settled into a progression rhythm, it became very difficult to break outside the norm and expect group-based play as a means of progression through content that could be soloed. The end result is a game where the atmosphere supports both options, but players looking for group-based MMORPG play are left feeling disappointed and unsatisfied because it's borderline non-existant. To say to someone like that expecting to play an MMORPG for group-based grinds that it's OK because "both options exist - you should be happy, you have choices" becomes borderline insulting, because the reality there is the choice is simply an illusion.

But flip it around and the same could be said for those expecting solo play, so what's the magic answer?

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 11:52am by Whales
____________________________
FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#94 Dec 21 2012 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
334 posts
Ridinger wrote:
Lastly, to really accentuate party play, the zone creation is really critical. If there's an area like crawlers nest, where the entrance is good for lvl 35, then the deeper you go the higher the levels required is. This really drives the party play atmosphere. In such a zone, a pair of lvl 40's could start duo'ing, then as more people enter the party (to accumualte more rewards) the party moves deeper and deeper.


I agree wholeheartedly with this. And I hope you don't have to enter an instance to make it happen. I really loved how "busy" those zones felt with people leveling, completing quests, skilling up, NM hunting etc all at the same time! Instanced zones feel so empty to me.
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#95 Dec 21 2012 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
@Whales
What killed party play in FFXIV was not the ability to solo, but the fact that powerleveling was encouraged as the most efficient way to get to level 40. And once you got there, you went to Nathalan. Not to have fun and play, but to "cap out your Xth class" by spamming your macros so hard that your keyboard twitched and finally snapped.
#96 Dec 21 2012 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
Sage
**
562 posts
Rinsui wrote:
@Whales
What killed party play in FFXIV was not the ability to solo, but the fact that powerleveling was encouraged as the most efficient way to get to level 40. And once you got there, you went to Nathalan. Not to have fun and play, but to "cap out your Xth class" by spamming your macros so hard that your keyboard twitched and finally snapped.


Yes, absolutely - there were a lot of factors as to what drived character progression in FFXIV. I just mentioned FFXIV to attempt to bring some connection to the topic here, but was more or less addressing all modern MMORPG titles.
____________________________
FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#97 Dec 21 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:


Well, you've got games like GW2 showing just how desirable it is to give players a lot of abilities early on, and I hope XIV will follow suit.


You're speaking to a Guild Wars 2 player, and the novelty wears off very quickly for many players once they realize those skills are pretty much the sum of what they receive, outside of what traits do to change them. (Not to mention that game defines the term "Zerg!" in all content outside of TPvP and dungeons)

Not that I disagree with the concept of desirable skills, but Guild Wars 2 is in no way a messiah of MMOs. Their sense of progression is heavily muted as well as the sense of accomplishment. Also keep in mind that Guild Wars 2 is a buy to play model, there's no incentive for commitment here because they have their payment - they can provide the bulk of the flashy content all at once and just hope you'll occasionally buy off their micro-transactions shop for aesthetics and boosters.


Believe me, I am in no way impressed with GW2. They built a Skinner box game and they got the temporary success of a Skinner box. However, one thing they definitely did well was to make combat interesting from the start by giving you quick access to a wide variety of skills. Are those skills interesting and meaningful enough? No. Did they pace the distribution of those skills out properly? No. These are criticisms I've made a hundred times before.

Hyrist wrote:
Wint wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Wint wrote:
I can't remember the last positive thing you had to say. Are you even planning on trying 2.0?


I thought this was a discussion forum, not a compliment board. :P


You are totally welcome to your opinion, I wasn't trying to imply you couldn't express yourself Smiley: smile


Nope, that'd be my job.

We've heard the skepticism all before. And if you're expecting to be wowed back into playing you're likely never going to subscribe. Which means you're here to gloat about that fact, something I don't care for in the slightest.


This is a FFXIV General Discussion Forum. People who are discussing FFXIV are using the forum as intended. People who are complaining about how others discuss FFXIV are not.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#98 Dec 21 2012 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:

FilthMcNasty wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Ok Filthy, I thought about this a bit more on my drive to work. I can see why you are using guildleves as an example of quest-based leveling. Your points fit the bill. So I'll concede that point to you. But it doesn't really address the original concern I posed:

ChaChaJaJa wrote:

I'm hoping for a progression structure that encourages grouping. Not requires it like XI did, but not one that abandons it like WoW basically did. Try to find a happy medium. Hence why several of my posts used the word "balance".


How do you encourage grouping without discouraging solo play is my question. I'm not sure there is a way to promote group play fairly outside of just making it fun and engaging. Depending on whether you're a half-full or half-empty kind of person, they're either giving an advantage to groups or putting solo players at a disadvantage.

I would really like to see group play flourish in ARR just like you, I'm just not sure that SE can come up with a way to do it that doesn't make someone feel like they're being overlooked.


To me the sweet spot is right around 3x XP for an average group. That is, you make significantly more XP in a group, but it is completely viable to solo. Mind you, this is just a matter of framing. Other important factors are the length to next level, length to next ability, and the ease of creating a functioning party. If those things are done well, there can be less of a disparity between solo and party. It is to a large degree a function of how great a pain in the *** leveling is already. If it's not a pain in the ***, it doesn't really matter if solo/group is better.

e.g., Grouping was far more efficient for leveling in GW2 than soloing, but I played 99% of the game solo anyway. I didn't see much value in grouping. I couldn't really talk to people and with even 2 people the monsters died so fast there was barely any challenge at all.

Really, the biggest thing lacking from party play in MMOs is the lack of actual party elements. Things like skillchains and magic bursts were overly simplistic perhaps, but they were an example of a gameplay element that was designed for party play. When party play actually allows you to enjoy features of the game that you can't experience solo, it helps.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#99 Dec 21 2012 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
334 posts
Kachi wrote:
Really, the biggest thing lacking from party play in MMOs is the lack of actual party elements. Things like skillchains and magic bursts were overly simplistic perhaps, but they were an example of a gameplay element that was designed for party play. When party play actually allows you to enjoy features of the game that you can't experience solo, it helps.


I agree with this 100 million % (I know that's a stupid statement, but you get my drift). I actually enjoyed skillchains and magic bursts. I even enjoyed popping off a distortion that only did 13 extra damage just because I enjoyed the animation and sound effects. It wasn't just about numbers. I enjoyed any element that felt like teamwork and fulfilling a role.

As for the bolded part- this makes total sense, but isn't this the thing that leads to intense whining from people who want to play an MMO solo onry? There is some factor that prevents them from grouping (whether it be choice, time constraint etc.), so they play solo and ***** incessantly about how the game isn't fair for solo players. This is exactly what Filthy was referring to when he said you can't do something nice for one group without having another group feeling slighted. No matter what SE does, someone is going to whine about it.

I'm sure it can be worked out, it's just going to require a system where the benefits provided by grouping don't appear to be outlandish to the solo crowd. Or even better- provide a unique benefit for each playstyle. Nothing over the top, but something that allows each playstyle to have it's own niche advantage. Perhaps that would help encourage balance and satisfaction for both types of players.
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#100 Dec 21 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Maybe I'm just behind the times on this issue, but it has always seemed to me that solo players don't mind progressing at a slower rater than party players. FFXI took it to an unwelcome extreme because party play was ALREADY slow, and soloing seemed relatively impossible when it took 5 minutes to earn 200 XP.

Players may gripe about XP inequity but as long as they're able to progress at a reasonable rate it rarely has any actual affect on their enjoyment. Players understand that solo and party XP rates are and should be apples to oranges. Compare partying as DRG to RDM, for example, and players feel differently. Apples to apples, they want to be able to progress at a similar rate. Most people in XI weren't bothered at all that soloing wasn't as efficient as partying... they just wanted it to be viable.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#101 Dec 21 2012 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,773 posts
Kachi wrote:


This is a FFXIV General Discussion Forum. People who are discussing FFXIV are using the forum as intended. People who are complaining about how others discuss FFXIV are not.


Incorrect. Discussions concerning the non-player community surrounding around FFXIV is just as if not even more relevant than observations based on limited displays of game-play.

I'm more than valid to state my flat out opinion that the negativity of the non-player community is annoying, especially as the discussion of the negative bia's of many of the dejected players of the game would have has been the subject of discussion here for quite some time. It's been called out beforehand, and it's both prevalent and relevant now.

And it's my opinion that it just doesn't belong in the civil discourse.

Let me draw a line here for you. Otisa vs Filth. Filth states his observations and makes a personal 'at this point' statement for himself Otisa makes a cras and highly generic statement about how terrible FFXIV will be and how he and nobody should have absolutely no pause for the fact that this is alpha gameplay. Even though ALL of the major flaws shown from the previous alpha gameplay as far as the graphics engine is gone.

This:
Quote:
Are those skills interesting and meaningful enough? No. Did they pace the distribution of those skills out properly? No. These are criticisms I've made a hundred times before.


Is decent critisim. Not one I necessarily fully agree with as far as tone, but you get your point across without doomsaying the company.

We haven't seen enough of the skills and combat as a whole to agree with the pacing. They were tank and spanking with 3 out of 8 available jobs. There's also much not being spoken about such as the UI, the pacing (we really diddn't see a full fight, just clips) the skillbar (which I'm not happy about, honestly, the global cooldown looks clunky.

As far as the skill distribution. I donno. I happen to like the fact that I'm throwing my lance out at people. That's new and exciting to me. Diddn't watch Conjurer closely cause the skills weren't exactly representative of the fight. Archer looks good to me even at level 20.

The problem here is I'm not seeing the full context. Dungeons and Boss fights are the meat and potatoes of the fun fights here, even at low level. Those skills can make a world of difference as far as being exciting when the fight's aren't seen as just straight-forward. So in my opinion I feel that this is a bad presentation more than bad gameplay. There's so much lacking here and it's not in the move-sets themselves.

As they're still in the process of adjusting individual attack and monster strenght, I'm fairly certain combat will be seeming much more dynamic as we begin to see more of the real gameplay, rather than the alpha testing. Yes, I too hate to say 'it's alpha', but it's clearly apparent here that not all the pieces are in place.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)