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what would be teh point of being able to have 8 characters?Follow

#1 Dec 20 2012 at 8:27 AM Rating: Default
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Im trying to measure why anyone would choose the 15 bucks a month plan over the 13 bucks. In FFXI having multiple characters made sense because you needed mules because of limited inventory space (even with all teh upgrades and bags) and since the auction houses werent all connected if you wanted to check an AH in every city it was faster to have a mule stationed in each city.

FFXIV supposedly wouldnt have those problems so why would multiple characters function be other than if someone wanted to level multiple characters (which I personally have never been the level more than on character type.. and even if i were you can level ALL jobs on FFXI and FFXIV to max level on the same character which to me just makes having another character even more pointless). Anyone care to shed some light/make some sense of it for me?
#2 Dec 20 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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It's just like you said. They would be used as mules. Also, some people do like to level up multiple characters just because they can be a different race. People get tired of looking at the same backside every once in a while. The main reason would be the added inventory space. I know people in my LS who had 3 or 4 different mules mainly for inventory space, but they also dual boxed and used their mule to help them gain entry to low level instanced dungeons so that they could farm GC seals. It also allowed them to have 4 retainers in the wards instead of just the original 2 from your main character.
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#3 Dec 20 2012 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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oh because i was told mules wouldnt be an issue in FFXIV someone even stated having multiple jobs at max and having all their equipment/items on that one character etc etc
#4 Dec 20 2012 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Whoever told you this can't speak for everyone. People are pretty much hoarders when it comes to stuff they "might" need in the future. Expecially for materials for crafting. They are going to decrease the player inventory from 200 down to 100 and increase the retainer inventory from 150 to 200? I forget about the retainer bit, but it's something along those lines. All in all, inventory will be more accessible since we wont have to carry around 100 slots worth of gear since we'll be able to put gear into gear sets and equipment in gear sets wont count as inventory. They have not announced being able to use the same item in multiple gear sets yet, but yoshi has mentioned that they are working toward that possibility.
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#5 Dec 20 2012 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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swisa wrote:
... they also dual boxed and used their mule to help them gain entry to low level instanced dungeons so that they could farm GC seals.


Once ARR is released, I'd have to say that this is the main reason that many people will have more than one character. Many people like to level a Tank or DD class on one character and then level a 2nd character that can be used as a full time healer/support. We don't really know what difficulty level the content will ultimately be in XIV, but I'm sure dual boxing will still be a viable/popular option for many people, just as it was in XI.
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#6 Dec 20 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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You still wouldn't need multiple main characters because you can hire multiple retainers (I'm pretty sure that is sticking around for 2.0).
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#7 Dec 20 2012 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Mules can be useful for delivering things to your main from another area, but that really depends upon the inter-character delivery options as well as how great a pain it is to travel between cities and other key points. The utility of it in FFXI was a pain though, and I hope that it doesn't serve any meaningful use in FFXIV.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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#8 Dec 20 2012 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Options are options. Doesn't matter at the end of the day if it doesn't appeal to you. Don't take it. It might however appeal to someone else.

Worth mentioning thought that:

swisa wrote:
but they also dual boxed and used their mule to help them gain entry to low level instanced dungeons so that they could farm GC seals.


would require multiple accounts not multiple characters. You can only log onto one character per account at one time.
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#9 Dec 20 2012 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:


swisa wrote:
but they also dual boxed and used their mule to help them gain entry to low level instanced dungeons so that they could farm GC seals.


would require multiple accounts not multiple characters. You can only log onto one character per account at one time.


Ahhh, very good point that I totally blanked on When I posted my similar response (I never personally dual boxed).
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#10 Dec 26 2012 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Kordain wrote:


swisa wrote:
but they also dual boxed and used their mule to help them gain entry to low level instanced dungeons so that they could farm GC seals.


would require multiple accounts not multiple characters. You can only log onto one character per account at one time.


Ahhh, very good point that I totally blanked on When I posted my similar response (I never personally dual boxed).


Yes. I should have mentioned this in my post. I'm so used to the people I play with being able to do this that I forget. Most of those I play with purchased the CE edition at original launch.
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#11 Dec 26 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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To me, the question is, why not have a few characters slots for free ? FFXI and XIV, are the only games that i've played where a person needs to pay to get even a 2nd char.
#12 Dec 26 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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cormer wrote:
To me, the question is, why not have a few characters slots for free ? FFXI and XIV, are the only games that i've played where a person needs to pay to get even a 2nd char.


Do most other games allow you to level every single job on the same char? I know WoW doesn't, beyond that my experience is limited but generally that is unique to FFXI and now XIV.
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#13 Dec 26 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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Multiple characters can be a storage thing, or be someone who is an altaholic, like myself, and just likes to have multiple identities to play as.

Functionally, SE will likely strive to make it so that all content can be experienced on one character. Alternate characters are for roleplayers, hoarders, and those who like to stick a specific theme to a specific character. (Such as one character focusing on Mage classes, another melee, another crafting, etc.)
#14 Dec 26 2012 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
Hyrist wrote:
Multiple characters can be a storage thing, or be someone who is an altaholic, like myself, and just likes to have multiple identities to play as.

Functionally, SE will likely strive to make it so that all content can be experienced on one character. Alternate characters are for roleplayers, hoarders, and those who like to stick a specific theme to a specific character. (Such as one character focusing on Mage classes, another melee, another crafting, etc.)


I ran into a problem with this on XI. I had 2 chars, and Elf for melee and a Taru for mage stuff. Became problematic at instanced HNM's like Sandworm where I wanted some mage gear, but was the only TH4 thf online.
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#15 Dec 26 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I was under the impression not all content would be available on each character. Specifically, I recall that SE had mentioned Grand Company content as exclusive. You would not be able to switch after selection. I could be wrong but I believe they mentioned some other exclusive content.

I know most people are not wildly excited by this idea but I really think having multiple capped characters in this version will not be impossible.
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#16 Dec 26 2012 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I was under the impression not all content would be available on each character. Specifically, I recall that SE had mentioned Grand Company content as exclusive. You would not be able to switch after selection. I could be wrong but I believe they mentioned some other exclusive content.

I know most people are not wildly excited by this idea but I really think having multiple capped characters in this version will not be impossible.


After so many years of Final Fantasy XI and really enjoying the ease of capability of switching nations to get to the different nation missions and their storylines, I'd be lying if I didn't say that is one thing I find unfortunate. I've never been an alt-aholic, and so I really, truly prefer sticking to one character over multiple ones. I've even done that when playing other, less job switching-friendly games.

On the other hand, it does make sense, since there would probably be story and continuity snarl if you could just bounce around nations and companies after completing one company's storyline. XI had the silly excuse of an NPC at each nation's immigration department "locking away certain memories", which in retrospect is all sorts of comically cheesy. Smiley: lol
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#17 Dec 26 2012 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Dec 26 2012 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.
#19 Dec 27 2012 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I was under the impression not all content would be available on each character. Specifically, I recall that SE had mentioned Grand Company content as exclusive. You would not be able to switch after selection. I could be wrong but I believe they mentioned some other exclusive content.

I know most people are not wildly excited by this idea but I really think having multiple capped characters in this version will not be impossible.


Honestly, if it's anything like 1.0, then you really wont be missing much. Most of the major story events from the GC storylines in 1.0 had us all doing basically the same thing for each GC, only in a different location. There were some minor quests where I, as an immortal flame, had to investigate one of the officers in the flames and find out if the stories about him were true. He was being accused of taking new recruits and murdering them. Minor quests like these weren't available for other GC unless you needed help with the battle. I needed help completing that battle even with my multiple 50's. Others could come in and help with the battle. They just couldn't experience all the talk no jutsu.
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#20 Jan 11 2013 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, if you're an altaholic, as I am, you can't be happy with one. In Champions Online, for instance, I have about eighteen unique characters and all of them for...

roleplaying. I like to mix up the stories and try the different nations and races easily, and that's much more easily done with alts.

It's worth a few dollars a month.
#21 Jan 11 2013 at 9:22 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist
#22 Jan 11 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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nerdessence wrote:
Well, if you're an altaholic, as I am, you can't be happy with one. In Champions Online, for instance, I have about eighteen unique characters and all of them for...

roleplaying. I like to mix up the stories and try the different nations and races easily, and that's much more easily done with alts.

It's worth a few dollars a month.



Id love to play an MMO where ppl actually role play.. too bad Im sure i wont see it on FFXIV.. as i didnt see it in my 8 years on XI
#23 Jan 11 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Assuming there are seperate paths to take like 1.0, multiple characters would allow you to try all those different paths.
#24 Jan 11 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist


No offense, but every time you start a sentence with "ummm" I want to Smiley: banghead

Smiley: smile

I'm with Hyrist, at least TH in the form it exists in XI is more of an annoyance than useful ability.
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#25 Jan 11 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist


No offense, but every time you start a sentence with "ummm" I want to Smiley: banghead

Smiley: smile

I'm with Hyrist, at least TH in the form it exists in XI is more of an annoyance than useful ability.


please do explain how TH is an "annoyance".. especially with its highly insignificant 10% drop rate (and thats being nice.. If I had to go on my own experiences it seems more like less than 5%)
#26 Jan 11 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist


No offense, but every time you start a sentence with "ummm" I want to Smiley: banghead

Smiley: smile

I'm with Hyrist, at least TH in the form it exists in XI is more of an annoyance than useful ability.


please do explain how TH is an "annoyance".. especially with its highly insignificant 10% drop rate (and thats being nice.. If I had to go on my own experiences it seems more like less than 5%)


Because in my experience it doesn't do crap or at least the effect is marginal at best.
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#27 Jan 11 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist



It's a cheap mechanic used to pull in an ineffective party member for the sake of 'teh lootz'. It appeals solely to greed and has an unjust influence on party design, balance, and decision making.

No one class should have an automatic, incontestable leg-up over another and that's exactly what Treasure Hunter is.
#28 Jan 11 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist

WoW Rogues, GuildWars Thiefs, and EQ Rogues (just to name a few) all say hai2u.
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#29 Jan 11 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, many classes these days can get TH1 without even using THF sub, thanks to that one augmented belt from Abyssea. Also, TH has been confirmed for BST pets like Faithful Falcorr.

So basic TH isn't exclusive to THF, but only a THF can get the crazy TH level10+ numbers out of a NM.

(I have statistical, tabular data that shows TH has a direct effect upon seal drops in Abyssea, on average. Proc but no TH? You're more likely to only see 2-3 seals. TH but no proc? You'll see 0-2 seals. TH and proc? You'll get 4 seals pretty much guaranteed. Now, they will likely not be for the jobs you wanted, but they'll at least be there.)
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#30 Jan 11 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
(You'll get 4 seals pretty much guaranteed. Now, they will likely not be for the jobs you wanted, but they'll at least be there.)

That's what bugs me Smiley: mad
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#31 Jan 11 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:
With all the suspension of disbelief required to play any fantasy game, the phrase "gameplay > realism" seems pertinent to that problem. I don't care if they provide no explanation whatsoever and leave it to your imagination. Exclusive content, especially in a game which struggles with sufficient content, is inexcusably poor design.


Which is why it was announced (Possible implemented in 1.xx at some point, I forget) that you can change your grand company at the expense of all your rank. Also, you can only wear company gear from your active company (to prevent metagaming the GC Gear.)

As far as concerns of looting outside your specific setup, that's a management problem from your Group, though usually I settle in on some of my other classes not being as well geared as my favored ones.

Luckily, "Treasure Hunter" does not exist in this game. Hopefully it stays that way.



umm what was wrong with treasure hunter? i hope it comes back.. besides not like it "worked" 90% of the time... but every thief like class in MMOs has some kinda drop increasing ability.. so if/when FFXIV finally adds a thief (theyd better) I dont see why such an ability wouldnt exist



It's a cheap mechanic used to pull in an ineffective party member for the sake of 'teh lootz'. It appeals solely to greed and has an unjust influence on party design, balance, and decision making.

No one class should have an automatic, incontestable leg-up over another and that's exactly what Treasure Hunter is.


yeah thats right because with all the job favoritism that goes on in XI.. thf is the ONLY job that falls under "No one class should have an automatic, incontestable leg-up over another"

I mean because lasted I checked

/sarcasm

We ALL know blu, nin and rdm are the ONLY jobs that can do the peacock charm bcnm

and we ALL know that smn and nins or /ni are the ONLY jobs who can win CoP fights pre nerf.

/sarcasm


lets not forget how thief got/gets discriminated for merit parties pre abyssea and how they were never the job shouted for for BCNM, KSNM or just about everything else... so yeah Id say they needed SOMETHING to make them "needed" (even though they had plenty without that if individuals were open minded).

Also Wint thats my point exactly TH was lucky to be 1% it was so insignificant but Hyrist makes it sound as if it was game breaking or so unbalanced it shouldnt exist.
#32 Jan 11 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree that it's poor design. THF should be balanced to stand on its own. A slight boon to drop rates is a very inelegant way to make THF desirable, not to mention makes their presence something of a slap in the face. IF players are going to be judged and excluded from an encounter, they at least want it to be based on performance, not some non-combat trait.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#33 Jan 11 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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THF has come into it's own a bit now being able to solo most things due to it's high evasion, but I still thing a properly geared 99 DNC will blow a THF out of the water, I've seen DNC do crazy things in Abyssea.
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#34 Jan 11 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
Wint wrote:
THF has come into it's own a bit now being able to solo most things due to it's high evasion, but I still thing a properly geared 99 DNC will blow a THF out of the water, I've seen DNC do crazy things in Abyssea.



Pfft. Bolts!
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#35 Jan 11 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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In actuality, it really does boil down to skill. One of my last parties (where I got my first job to 75) before the level caps went up there was a PUP there that was doing insane damage and basically just rocking the job. Everyone was impressed. My impressions before that party though was the usual I'm a moron.
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#36 Jan 11 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Default
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thf has been able to solo quite effectively for a long time now... before even toau existed
#37 Jan 11 2013 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
In actuality, it really does boil down to skill. One of my last parties (where I got my first job to 75) before the level caps went up there was a PUP there that was doing insane damage and basically just rocking the job. Everyone was impressed. My impressions before that party though was the usual I'm a moron.

ZAM's "swear" censor caught ya Smiley: lol
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#38 Jan 11 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Wint wrote:
In actuality, it really does boil down to skill. One of my last parties (where I got my first job to 75) before the level caps went up there was a PUP there that was doing insane damage and basically just rocking the job. Everyone was impressed. My impressions before that party though was the usual I'm a moron.

ZAM's "swear" censor caught ya Smiley: lol


Oh good call. I was wondering why Wint was being unusually self-deprecating. Smiley: laugh
#39 Jan 11 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
yeah thats right because with all the job favoritism that goes on in XI.. thf is the ONLY job that falls under "No one class should have an automatic, incontestable leg-up over another"

I mean because lasted I checked

/sarcasm

We ALL know blu, nin and rdm are the ONLY jobs that can do the peacock charm bcnm

and we ALL know that smn and nins or /ni are the ONLY jobs who can win CoP fights pre nerf.

/sarcasm


lets not forget how thief got/gets discriminated for merit parties pre abyssea and how they were never the job shouted for for BCNM, KSNM or just about everything else... so yeah Id say they needed SOMETHING to make them "needed" (even though they had plenty without that if individuals were open minded).

Also Wint thats my point exactly TH was lucky to be 1% it was so insignificant but Hyrist makes it sound as if it was game breaking or so unbalanced it shouldnt exist.


Yeah.. but this isn't how you fix that. You don't look at your class data and say "Man, this THF job.. nobody wants these guys around.. let's give them a unique but nebulous buff that people will assume you can't live without. That'll fix 'em."

You look at your data and say "People don't want THF around, why not? How can we improve this situation without throwing everything out of whack?"

Granted the second one takes more effort, but is ultimately the correct way to fix it.
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#40 Jan 11 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Wint wrote:
In actuality, it really does boil down to skill. One of my last parties (where I got my first job to 75) before the level caps went up there was a PUP there that was doing insane damage and basically just rocking the job. Everyone was impressed. My impressions before that party though was the usual I'm a moron.

ZAM's "swear" censor caught ya Smiley: lol


Oh good call. I was wondering why Wint was being unusually self-deprecating. Smiley: laugh


Yeah I didn't know about that one Smiley: tongue
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"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#41 Jan 11 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
yeah thats right because with all the job favoritism that goes on in XI.. thf is the ONLY job that falls under "No one class should have an automatic, incontestable leg-up over another"

I mean because lasted I checked

/sarcasm

We ALL know blu, nin and rdm are the ONLY jobs that can do the peacock charm bcnm

and we ALL know that smn and nins or /ni are the ONLY jobs who can win CoP fights pre nerf.

/sarcasm


lets not forget how thief got/gets discriminated for merit parties pre abyssea and how they were never the job shouted for for BCNM, KSNM or just about everything else... so yeah Id say they needed SOMETHING to make them "needed" (even though they had plenty without that if individuals were open minded).

Also Wint thats my point exactly TH was lucky to be 1% it was so insignificant but Hyrist makes it sound as if it was game breaking or so unbalanced it shouldnt exist.


Yeah.. but this isn't how you fix that. You don't look at your class data and say "Man, this THF job.. nobody wants these guys around.. let's give them a unique but nebulous buff that people will assume you can't live without. That'll fix 'em."

You look at your data and say "People don't want THF around, why not? How can we improve this situation without throwing everything out of whack?"

Granted the second one takes more effort, but is ultimately the correct way to fix it.




or because the situation didnt NEED improvement. it was just the playerbase that was the problem and not the class itself.. as proved by the fact that Ive done and completed every single of of those "thf is useless" scenarios/events as a thf.

did I have to work harder for it than I would have on another job? definitely. But did it feel as if it was so impossible that said event was clearly built with certain jobs in mind and doing it ANY other way was impossible? clearly not if i did it.


tl;dr easiest way =/= only way
#42 Jan 11 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can't just blame the players. If you're designing a game and there's a class that people don't want to have around, that isn't THEIR fault. It means that some aspect of the design may need to be adjusted so that the people playing that class aren't left out in the cold. I'm saying that a unique buff is a bad solution to that. It makes that class feel mandatory without fixing the underlying problem, so now people STILL don't want it there, but feel like they have to take it anyway; so it ends up as just this kind of gross feeling in your composition.

Your case here where you're describing your THF exploits just means that the class is fine. So then it's some other aspect of the class' design that's turning people off to it. Then that's what you investigate.
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#43 Jan 11 2013 at 9:14 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
You can't just blame the players. If you're designing a game and there's a class that people don't want to have around, that isn't THEIR fault. It means that some aspect of the design may need to be adjusted so that the people playing that class aren't left out in the cold. I'm saying that a unique buff is a bad solution to that. It makes that class feel mandatory without fixing the underlying problem, so now people STILL don't want it there, but feel like they have to take it anyway; so it ends up as just this kind of gross feeling in your composition.

Your case here where you're describing your THF exploits just means that the class is fine. So then it's some other aspect of the class' design that's turning people off to it. Then that's what you investigate.



lets see a thf job is hate control... and with how easy it is for melees to take damage of tanks (and keep it off) a thf being around to put the hate back where it belongs sound like a very good reason to have them to me
#44 Jan 11 2013 at 11:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I apologize for not making myself clearer in the beginning.

I'm trying to speak in broad terms about class design here. I hold no opinion of FFXI's THF job. I only played it myself up to about level 40. I personally remember getting annoyed with people for not cooperating with an agreed SATA setup. I remember being my party's puller (a job I enjoyed a lot since it let me set the pace of the party moreso than anyone else) in Yhoator Jungle where I was routinely balancing my crossbow on a goblin's shoulder to shoot a mandy on the other side of him just hoping he wouldn't notice me.

When I'm talking about a perception, I'm speaking broadly and usually in hypotheticals. "If a perception exists..." "If players believe that..." etc. Citing specific examples generally helps to illustrate a point, but I can see that you're taking what I'm saying to represent an opinion about the THF job that isn't my personal opinion. So once again, I apologize for not making that more clear up front.
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#45 Jan 11 2013 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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"If a perception exists..." "If players believe that..."

well then in that case Ias i said before... the dev did their job as their job functions as it was intended.. no need to "fix" what isnt broken.. its not the devs job to change the class to make it more appealing too the player base... instead its the player bases job to basically "pull their heads out of t heir *** and stop being elitists"
#46 Jan 12 2013 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
You can't just blame the players. If you're designing a game and there's a class that people don't want to have around, that isn't THEIR fault. It means that some aspect of the design may need to be adjusted so that the people playing that class aren't left out in the cold.


Absolutely, this. Duo seems content to blame players for bad game design.

When you're a game designer, it is literally your job to create fun. Everything you do create is with the intention of being fun. So when you make something that is broken, and is not creating fun, you have failed at your job. Now, that's not a sin or anything... everyone fails at their job in some small way from time to time, even every day (and game design is not exactly easy, nor is it even especially important). But what you DON'T do is blame others for what is ultimately your responsibility. You're getting paid to make it fun, so you roll up your sleeves and fix it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Jan 12 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
You can't just blame the players. If you're designing a game and there's a class that people don't want to have around, that isn't THEIR fault. It means that some aspect of the design may need to be adjusted so that the people playing that class aren't left out in the cold.


Absolutely, this. Duo seems content to blame players for bad game design.

When you're a game designer, it is literally your job to create fun. Everything you do create is with the intention of being fun. So when you make something that is broken, and is not creating fun, you have failed at your job. Now, that's not a sin or anything... everyone fails at their job in some small way from time to time, even every day (and game design is not exactly easy, nor is it even especially important). But what you DON'T do is blame others for what is ultimately your responsibility. You're getting paid to make it fun, so you roll up your sleeves and fix it.



thats just it thf wasnt "broken" its only "problem" was other DDs were stronger and ppl only cared about big numbers... a thief/rogue in ANY game isnt meant to be the top **** kicker in the squad, theyre known for their speed, agility and fast (but weak) attacks.. thats like saying a military should be all grunts/cannon fodder and no scouts or reconasaince.. theres more to winning a battle than just strength or who has the biggest gun.

As far as fun goes Im sure everyone who lvled thf to 75 (especially pre abyssea) had fun.. otherwise they wouldnt have done it... so the devs again mustve done their job
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