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Player Progression: Levels and SkillsFollow

#1 Dec 21 2012 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
Several threads on here have skewed to topics of player progression and how to accomodate that with either party play or quest-based leveling, but both of those are kind of determined by how your character strengthens. I'd like to see your views on how a character's skills and traits move up.

I always liked the idea of experience points being strictly for levels and having skill points for Job Abilities, Latent Job traits (like accuracy and enmity) and Weapon Skills. It would be similar to skilling up in XI.

Weapon Skills: Would be completely dependent on how high your weapon skill is, but also have caps based on your Character Level. I imagine a mix of XI and FFVII on this. Auto-attacks will increase your sword skill, but WS's will increase it faster. Heavy swing is gained at 50 sword skill, but your sword skill is capped below 50 until you hit level 25. This way, people don't get a WS too early, but your skills are also not automatically given to you once your Character level simply hits a certain point.

Job abilities: In addition to earning exp each fight, characters earn an amount of Ability points as well. These are spent on abilities your character can use, and any ability can be chosen if you have the appropriate job leveled. For example, If you're leveling WAR as your first job, than you can choose WAR abilities. If you decide to level LNC next, you can pick abilities as your LNC level increases, as well as any WAR abilities you've unlocked. Each char would have a certain amount of slots that could be dedicated do "outside job abilities." There would be no restriction such as WAR not being able to allocate CNJ abilities (though this may not be wise.)

Latent Job Traits: Job Ability Points would be used for these as well. Similar to merits, you could increase Accuracy, Critical Chance, Critical Damage, Weapon Skill Damage, Weapon Skill Accuracy, Enmity, Cure Potency, Evasion, etc.

I'm obviously not thinking all these things should be implemented into the game RIGHT NAO... I'm just putting my view for fun progression out there. I've discussed some of these things in the past, but not all together. It would allow players to build truly solo-machines if that's their gig, or a group of people could build the ultimate fighting force as they see fit. Accompanied with appropriate avenues of leveling, I don't think it would necessarily hold anyone back or alienate them based strictly on time consumption, therefor pleasing both "casuals" and "hardcores."
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#2 Dec 21 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont want to see weapon skill points in game in any sense. Grinding up these skill points were perhaps the lowest enjoyment point of my XI career.
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#3 Dec 21 2012 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like something similar to what you described, though my suggestion would be more like:

1) Classes would always have access to all their WS/abilities/spells/traits at all time, with no way to rank them up (however see "8").

2) Jobs would receive both EXP and AP.

3) Jobs would be set up kinda like Blue mage from FFXI, where you had a certain amount of "slots" and "slot points" and each WS/ability/spell/trait would use a base number of slot cost and slot point cost.

4) Each Job would have it's own crystarium/job tree for the ability points to be spent.

5) Every WS/ability/spell/trait on a Jobs Crystarium/job tree can be ranked up (most would have to be purchased to be unlocked first, some would be automatically unlocked), where each rank would have effects such as lowering the slot cost, the slot point cost, improved effect, addition effect etc...

6) Every Job would hit max level long before they master the Crystarium/job tree, but you would still be able to gain AP after hitting max level. (So people would have something to do after hitting max, kinda like Merit points from FFXI, but also so that you wouldn't need to have more than one character to have access to everything, keeping in line with FF MMO's of not needing more than one character)

7) No Job would ever be able to have access (equipped) to every thing on their Crystarium/Job Tree even if everything is unlocked and mastered, ever. There might be some gear that lowers slot cost or slot point cost for some abilities, even with this you would still never be able to have access to everything. (this is to give some customization for each Job without stepping on the foot of classes ability to use abilities from other classes)

8) If you rank up an ability that a job can rank up that it's class also has access to, then the class would have access to the current rank, so ranking up some job skills through the crystarium/job tree would also make your base class a little bit stronger.

Extra notes, I would free up weapons from classes, in this case WS on the Crystarium would appear as "WS1", "WS2", "WS3", etc... and each weapon ability received from weapons (weapon skill's) would be associated with one of those. So for example polearm's Heavy Thrust would be linked to WS1.

But every weapon would have some variation for instance, polearm for the Lancer class and it's Job(s) would have access to Chaos Thrust, but for a different class [and it's Job(s)] it might have a WS that's not offensive but might enhance the parties acc ad crit chance for all in range for a cost of TP. For the location of that WS on Crystariums it would have a different effect to accommodate the different effects, but this is more about the specific Classes/Jobs and would likely merit a whole new topic.

Maybe even think about making every job always have access to every WS at all times, but still needing to rank them up for them to be worthwhile, though also maybe think of doing the same with most spells for magic classes since in some cases those are the Mage equivalent to Weapon Skills.

I also would like some weapon skills have non offensive effects.

And I'm going to stop there since now that I'm thinking about it, I could probably make an entire system at this point.
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#4 Dec 21 2012 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not going to go into great detail; there are lots of possible "good" systems out there. Some of my preferred traits are:

1) All abilities are quested. Leveling is not the primary emphasis of progression; unlocking and improving abilities is. There don't even have to be any levels at all.

2) The number of abilities that can be used are limited by an AP or Class system. You have to make some choices about which abilities to use, but you have a lot of flexibility and potential for customization.

3) Progression is focused on developing outwards rather than upwards. Your character is predominantly strengthened either by making them more flexible in battle, or by increasing the power of their abilities (rather than significant growth in "universal stats" like STR, DEF, etc.). For example, a specific dragon will drop a gem which can be used to enhance your Flame spell.

Ultimately what it comes down to is making your content appealing and meaningful to your players. If they have a good incentive to do your content, it doesn't even have to be great content... they'll still probably do it. But when the primary determinants of character strength are a handful of stats, you severely limit the number of items which can be "the best" for a given situation. When there's only one best item for a slot, for example, you mathematically limit the potential of your progression system.
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#5 Dec 21 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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The sphere grid in X was one of the most fun ways to progress characters in any FF game, but I'm not sure how well that would translate over to an online MMO setting.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 5:26pm by catwho
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#6 Dec 21 2012 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
Kordain wrote:
I dont want to see weapon skill points in game in any sense. Grinding up these skill points were perhaps the lowest enjoyment point of my XI career.


I just want to clarify. It wouldn't be random skill ups, you would have a definite amount. Every auto-attack gives you 1 skill point. Every WS gives you 5 skill points, that sort of thing. Basically, this would curb the rate of PL'ing, since you'd hit max level with no skills, thus emphasizing training your skills solo or joining in group play. I've always hated power leveling >.>
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#7 Dec 21 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've been replaying XII and I really liked the license system myself, although I'm reminded of this gem:

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#8 Dec 21 2012 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Basically, this would curb the rate of PL'ing, since you'd hit max level with no skills, thus emphasizing training your skills solo or joining in group play. I've always hated power leveling >.>

Basically this would mean that after powerleveling, you need to join an power-skillup-party.
You auto-attack with the weakest weapon possible a weak-hitting high DEF monster with regen, while a WHM heals you.
It also means that in normal parties, there will always be the odd WHM that insists on frontline-meleeing.
#9 Dec 21 2012 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I really like a lot of the ideas thrown around in this thread. At the same time it's funny how SE has literally dozens of unique, variegated, and interesting progression systems under their personal ownership, yet they choose something like "characters get skills every even level" as a basis for progression. The fact that so many posters have seized on past Final Fantasy mechanics is important. One can only hope that some refinement and/or novelty is actually underway -- perhaps, dare I say, one that finally weds Classes and Jobs in a way that doesn't seem as though the latter was invented as a slap-dash solution to complaints over a year ago.
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#10 Dec 21 2012 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
I still don't understand how they came up with the Class/Job system. Seems pretty derp to me. Like you said Kane, they have several molds that they could polish, but instead they get at it like a 3rd grader with a chisel and stone.
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Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#11 Dec 22 2012 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
The sphere grid in X was one of the most fun ways to progress characters in any FF game, but I'm not sure how well that would translate over to an online MMO setting.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 5:26pm by catwho


I feel like it'd be a bit too linear, and therefore, pointless. Of course, there are a few things they could do to spice up character builds; I loathe the stat point system.
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#12 Dec 22 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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I also felt that the FFX sphere system was too linear, and lots of the bonuses were just incremental stat increases. I actually think the grid from XII had more potential, aside from the abilities being generally awful.
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#13 Dec 22 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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The sphere grid was only too linear if you stayed on your path. If you put stupid amounts of time into the Omega Ruins, you could eventually take all the characters throughout the grid, exploring the abilities of other character's paths, and turning your specialists into a serious set of smash-em-up brawlers. Lulu's final stuffed animal damage cap is 9999 once you've taken her through the whole grid - nothing compared to Auron with Masamume to break the damage cap, but not nothing compared to her little 10 point moogle taps from the beginning of the game.
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#14 Dec 22 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
The sphere grid was only too linear if you stayed on your path. If you put stupid amounts of time into the Omega Ruins, you could eventually take all the characters throughout the grid, exploring the abilities of other character's paths, and turning your specialists into a serious set of smash-em-up brawlers. Lulu's final stuffed animal damage cap is 9999 once you've taken her through the whole grid - nothing compared to Auron with Masamume to break the damage cap, but not nothing compared to her little 10 point moogle taps from the beginning of the game.

Even so, that concept would cause unbelievable amounts of imbalance in an MMO game. It'd also be like merit parties all over again.

I was actually looking back to the guild mark system, which is sort of interesting. I dislike the idea of having to earn currency to be able to earn abilities, but it just seems like there's a lot of things they could have done to make character building a bit more interesting or unique.
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#15 Dec 22 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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I guess what we all, with not a single exception, want is the ability to create a truly unique character that is not automatically gimp.

The system you use to arrive at that goal is just a vehicle.
#16 Dec 22 2012 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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I'd say that's entirely true, and I don't understand why developers seem to struggle so much with this. Ability too strong? There's some number somewhere that you reduce. Too weak? There's some number to increase. Balance by design is difficult; balance by trial and error is pretty **** easy.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Dec 22 2012 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Simply implement an algorithm that lowers and raises the potency of an ability in relation to how many times it is used (globally).
Class balance = fixed, and at the same time cookie-cutter builds are eliminated.
Yet: don't underestimate the number of people who hate to not be able to min-max. The insecurity of ambiguity is killing them.
#18 Dec 22 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't necessarily do that just because as you approach true statistical balance you'll start to achieve imbalances based on stylistic preferences. For example, lightning magic may start to be less potent than water magic rather than equal it to just because people prefer lightning over water.

But I agree with your point about min/maxers. These are people who like to figure out the best configurations even more than actually acquiring them, I feel (at least if I'm any indication), and I think they can appreciate a game where this is an evolving problem, even if they don't necessarily prefer it. So I think it can be done to appease min/maxers, particularly in games that are elaborate enough that they can always find a new configuration.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Dec 22 2012 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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I am wondering how nobody has mentioned Final Fantasy Tactics job system, is by far the best job system in the series.
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#20 Dec 22 2012 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't FFXIV similar? You have to level the classes to access the jobs, right? Or am I remembering it wrong?
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#21 Dec 22 2012 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
I am wondering how nobody has mentioned Final Fantasy Tactics job system, is by far the best job system in the series.

Perhaps, but this could lead to serious class imbalances too. Not to mention, you'd probably spend ungodly amounts of time just to become "raid ready".

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#22 Dec 24 2012 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I am wondering how nobody has mentioned Final Fantasy Tactics job system, is by far the best job system in the series.

Perhaps, but this could lead to serious class imbalances too. Not to mention, you'd probably spend ungodly amounts of time just to become "raid ready".



Not really, right now you have different class combinations and yet we do not have that problem. i could be wrong i never raided in XIV i got way to bored with the world before i reached 40+

But the FFT Catalog of classes is amazing, not only you already have the looks of the classes, but the abilities to draw from, you dont have to start from scratch, and come on...... Be honest tell me you do not want to see a holy knight/ Dark Knight sword skills with FFXIV graphics ?
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#23 Dec 24 2012 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
But the FFT Catalog of classes is amazing, not only you already have the looks of the classes, but the abilities to draw from, you dont have to start from scratch, and come on...... Be honest tell me you do not want to see a holy knight/ Dark Knight sword skills with FFXIV graphics ?

There's more to it when you're dealing with balancing a game for multiple players against content instead of just a single player; not to mention the PvP which will be added sometime in the future. More jobs and classes seems like a great idea, but SE is well known for adding jobs which break games based on the abilities they bring.

*cough* ninja *cough*
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#24 Dec 24 2012 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
But the FFT Catalog of classes is amazing, not only you already have the looks of the classes, but the abilities to draw from, you dont have to start from scratch, and come on...... Be honest tell me you do not want to see a holy knight/ Dark Knight sword skills with FFXIV graphics ?

There's more to it when you're dealing with balancing a game for multiple players against content instead of just a single player; not to mention the PvP which will be added sometime in the future. More jobs and classes seems like a great idea, but SE is well known for adding jobs which break games based on the abilities they bring.

*cough* ninja *cough*


That is irrelevant since they are in that boat already, once ARR releases there will be 2 more jobs, and we all know they are gonna add Musketeers, Thief, Samurai, Ninja, Dark Knights etc Etc. Unless somehow they don't which will suck big time, so eventually they will have to address those issues, and they have to anyways since they are adding PVP in the near future.

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#25 Dec 25 2012 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
Ostia wrote:
they are adding PVP in the near future.


Smiley: lol Will believe when I see.
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Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#26 Dec 25 2012 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Ostia wrote:
they are adding PVP in the near future.


Smiley: lol Will believe when I see.


I was actually gonna comment, how yoshi himself has stated PVP will be in ARR.... But after really thinking about it and knowing SE... yeah i will believe when i see it too.
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#27 Dec 25 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
But the FFT Catalog of classes is amazing, not only you already have the looks of the classes, but the abilities to draw from, you dont have to start from scratch, and come on...... Be honest tell me you do not want to see a holy knight/ Dark Knight sword skills with FFXIV graphics ?

There's more to it when you're dealing with balancing a game for multiple players against content instead of just a single player; not to mention the PvP which will be added sometime in the future. More jobs and classes seems like a great idea, but SE is well known for adding jobs which break games based on the abilities they bring.

*cough* ninja *cough*


That is irrelevant since they are in that boat already, once ARR releases there will be 2 more jobs, and we all know they are gonna add Musketeers, Thief, Samurai, Ninja, Dark Knights etc Etc. Unless somehow they don't which will suck big time, so eventually they will have to address those issues, and they have to anyways since they are adding PVP in the near future.


My point is that they need to create content now to support those additions in the future. We all know that ninja broke FFXI to the point that any mob they introduced following it was incredibly hard for other jobs to tank. If you tune content to a job with a certain spell or ability then other similar jobs fall way behind. Ninja wasn't the only case of this happening in XI either, just the most obvious.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 Dec 25 2012 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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In most cases the class needs to be tuned; not the encounter. In FFXI, Ninja was a pretty useless class until players figured out how to tank with it. SE let them run with that and built later encounters around it, simultaneously destroying most of the party mechanics that were making the game challenging. Ninja ended up being just one more example of players trying to find an easier way to get through a game that was tuned to be a bit too hardcore/punishing.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#29 Dec 25 2012 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
Ostia wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Ostia wrote:
they are adding PVP in the near future.


Smiley: lol Will believe when I see.


I was actually gonna comment, how yoshi himself has stated PVP will be in ARR.... But after really thinking about it and knowing SE... yeah i will believe when i see it too.


To clarify, I was referencing the bolded section, not the prospect of PVP in general. Now, that's not to say that their idea of PVP won't be something like Ballista, but that is another conversation.
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Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#30 Dec 25 2012 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
But the FFT Catalog of classes is amazing, not only you already have the looks of the classes, but the abilities to draw from, you dont have to start from scratch, and come on...... Be honest tell me you do not want to see a holy knight/ Dark Knight sword skills with FFXIV graphics ?

There's more to it when you're dealing with balancing a game for multiple players against content instead of just a single player; not to mention the PvP which will be added sometime in the future. More jobs and classes seems like a great idea, but SE is well known for adding jobs which break games based on the abilities they bring.

*cough* ninja *cough*


That is irrelevant since they are in that boat already, once ARR releases there will be 2 more jobs, and we all know they are gonna add Musketeers, Thief, Samurai, Ninja, Dark Knights etc Etc. Unless somehow they don't which will suck big time, so eventually they will have to address those issues, and they have to anyways since they are adding PVP in the near future.


My point is that they need to create content now to support those additions in the future. We all know that ninja broke FFXI to the point that any mob they introduced following it was incredibly hard for other jobs to tank. If you tune content to a job with a certain spell or ability then other similar jobs fall way behind. Ninja wasn't the only case of this happening in XI either, just the most obvious.


I think that would be extremely hard to do for SE, to create content now, with future jobs/classes and abilities in mind. I think they should concentrate on the 2 jobs they are gonna release on ARR, then after that just release other jobs and attune encounters and jobs/classes accordingly, correct me if i am wrong, would it not be a nightmare to develop content now, with classes/jobs/abilities that might or might not be included later on the game ?

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#31 Dec 25 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
But the FFT Catalog of classes is amazing, not only you already have the looks of the classes, but the abilities to draw from, you dont have to start from scratch, and come on...... Be honest tell me you do not want to see a holy knight/ Dark Knight sword skills with FFXIV graphics ?

There's more to it when you're dealing with balancing a game for multiple players against content instead of just a single player; not to mention the PvP which will be added sometime in the future. More jobs and classes seems like a great idea, but SE is well known for adding jobs which break games based on the abilities they bring.

*cough* ninja *cough*


That is irrelevant since they are in that boat already, once ARR releases there will be 2 more jobs, and we all know they are gonna add Musketeers, Thief, Samurai, Ninja, Dark Knights etc Etc. Unless somehow they don't which will suck big time, so eventually they will have to address those issues, and they have to anyways since they are adding PVP in the near future.


My point is that they need to create content now to support those additions in the future. We all know that ninja broke FFXI to the point that any mob they introduced following it was incredibly hard for other jobs to tank. If you tune content to a job with a certain spell or ability then other similar jobs fall way behind. Ninja wasn't the only case of this happening in XI either, just the most obvious.


I think that would be extremely hard to do for SE, to create content now, with future jobs/classes and abilities in mind. I think they should concentrate on the 2 jobs they are gonna release on ARR, then after that just release other jobs and attune encounters and jobs/classes accordingly, correct me if i am wrong, would it not be a nightmare to develop content now, with classes/jobs/abilities that might or might not be included later on the game ?



In a perfect world they would have the entire game outlined, planned, and balanced from the get-go. All encounters would be evenly balanced based on what the final product would be. Problem is, if they create a boss encounter that NIN would do very well tanking, but our only current option is PLD, how do they explain that to the current playerbase?

"Guys, guys, relax. This will be totally do-able in 1 year when NIN is released."

On that note, I know the other side of that argument is "why not implement it in a way that it's tank-able by a PLD, then tweak it a bit so that both PLD and NIN can tank it?" My question, then, is "Is it possible to really make it evenly balanced so that both jobs can tank equally? I don't know enough about design to even consider that question.

Surprisingly, to an extent, I agree with Ostia on this point. I'd rather deal with balancing issues after a new job is released that makes it slightly too easy, rather than before it is released and thus made significantly harder to accomplish. In the WoW / WoWclone vs SE battle, I guess SE is better equipped for this dilemma, as you can level multiple jobs. That way, if your job becomes "gimped" you at least have the possibility of having another job that is useful, instead of needing a whole other character.
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#32 Dec 25 2012 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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On that note, I know the other side of that argument is "why not implement it in a way that it's tank-able by a PLD, then tweak it a bit so that both PLD and NIN can tank it?" My question, then, is "Is it possible to really make it evenly balanced so that both jobs can tank equally? I don't know enough about design to even consider that question.


It's easy to evenly balance two classes, but not especially easy to achieve a target difficulty, which are two separate balance issues. In terms of HP management, PLD is a linear tank. It's relatively easy to predict the pacing of HP loss in the encounter and tweak it according to need. However, NIN is more of a crisis tank where there are periods of no damage followed by periods of high damage. It's performance is a bit more dependent upon chance, which makes it a bit more volatile to tune to. Short answer: changing monster stats to balance for a PLD is easy; changing abilities and scripts for a NIN tank is generally more of a pain.

In the first sense, it's relatively easy to gauge the performance of a NIN tank and adjust the linear performance of the PLD tank to even them out. However, that depends upon getting the entire encounter balance right for a NIN tank in the first place. They don't balance apples to apples, so making linear changes will probably ruin the proportions of design algorithms. Balancing it for the NIN tank would be the last thing you do.

Realistically, both of those balance issues are inextricably intertwined on some level, but practically it's not difficult to design around. However, sticking to that method of balance can easily cause encounter variety to stagnate if you're avoiding extreme highs and lows in things like monster damage and attack frequency just to preserve the balance between 2 classes.

Really, it's much easier in general to make sure that classes are well-balanced and not overly situational rather than attempting to design around it in every encounter.
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#33 Dec 25 2012 at 10:43 PM Rating: Default
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Where ninjas tanks in FFXI ? or tanks subed as ninjas for some reason ? I always tho ninjas where melee dps.....
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#34 Dec 26 2012 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Where ninjas tanks in FFXI ? or tanks subed as ninjas for some reason ? I always tho ninjas where melee dps.....


When I started (during NA PC release, eons ago) Ninjas were really only used as tanks.

I got into a some heated discussions on here because Ninjas were suposed to be DD through tools, and throwing weapons. Their roles were IMO were pullers and damage mitigation (through Ninjutsu) when they pulled too much hate.

The community turned them into full fledged tanks (because of Ninjutsu obvs,), and SE eventually kinda accepted that role with Innin and Yonin.

There were some attempts to make NIN/RNG viable or NIN/BLM (by using tools for wheel dmg) but when I left if you weren't NIN/WAR then you weren't finding any parties.

/NIN was always a great sub, until /DNC came along.

I didn't play too much later on, or even during endgame, but for regular leveling (in the old magic burst style) I'd choose a good (well stocked/equipped) NIN over a PLD, just due to less down time. However if the NIN wasn't good; well stocked or didn't have good eq, it would get pretty messy. DDs would have to hold back and regaining hate with a NIN was a bit harder than with a PLD, who could cast Flash or something. THF was NIN best friend.

Just kinda rehashing the party dynamics, intentional or not, party play was very fun and could be very involving despite it being slow and inefficient.
#35 Dec 26 2012 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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NIN also has the second highest evasion in the game, only beaten by THF. They also had a good selection of evasion gear to boost it. So while the Utsusemi shadows provided good damage mitigation, their real gift was making even a high level monster whiff fairly often. Evasion tanking works great on mobs that hit slowly but hit hard, with few AOE abilities (since those wipe shadows.) A paladin is better against something that would eat through shadows every other TP move, like a mandragora.
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#36 Dec 26 2012 at 8:03 AM Rating: Default
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I just cannot understand how a NINJA is anything but a Damage Dealer...... SE works in mysterious ways i guess lol
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#37 Dec 26 2012 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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The best NIN tanks were also excellent DPS melee. Since they didn't have the self cure tools of a PLD, they had to put out high damage to generate enmity.

Actually, NIN/RDM was popular in some HNMs for certain fights, to gain access to additional debuffs and Phalanx. So was PLD/RDM for that matter (I remember that being most used on Jailor of Love.) NIN/BRD was popular for a short time until SE nerfed Raptor Mazurka (it generated far too much enmity for what it was.)

In my shell, we either use a MNK or a WAR as our main tank these days, against the higher tier NMs in Abyssea. (Wouldn't work outside of it; not enough damage mitigation.) Our Tarutaru Varagthrugna MNK pointed out that when he has Counterstance up, a fellow MNK mob like Chloris (giant *** mandragora) basically commits suicide fighting against him.
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#38 Dec 26 2012 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
I just cannot understand how a NINJA is anything but a Damage Dealer...... SE works in mysterious ways i guess lol


I agree that ninjas should be shadowy, sneaky assassins not front line defenders of the party if we're strictly speaking about concepts. FFXI just made their evasion skills and magic so overpowered that they were co-opted into being tanks that rarely took damage since it was very practical for that purpose.
#39 Dec 26 2012 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
In most cases the class needs to be tuned; not the encounter. In FFXI, Ninja was a pretty useless class until players figured out how to tank with it. SE let them run with that and built later encounters around it, simultaneously destroying most of the party mechanics that were making the game challenging. Ninja ended up being just one more example of players trying to find an easier way to get through a game that was tuned to be a bit too hardcore/punishing.


It was just way too overpowered an ability to have, being able to negate all incoming single target damage and negate or mitigate AoE as well. The only adjustments they could have made to classes would either be to nerf utsusemi or buff other tank classes to be just as overpowered. The only reason that didn't happen was the way the job system worked.

Because you could still use utsusemi as a subjob, the community developed the mentality of "sub ninja or get the @#%^ out" even though it completely changed the feel and playstyle of other jobs. Almost every job played as /nin felt exactly like playing NIN main. THF/NIN was nearly identical except instead of debuffing with jutsu, you used ranged attacks with status bolts ect.

They kinda developed themselves into a corner with that system and the similarity between XI's subjobs and the ability to 'borrow' abilities from other classes you level in XIV was a big concern for me. I personally think they should have tried to develop more synergy between classes and utility in both games instead of almost forcing people to rely on subjob or borrowed class abilities.

As an example, there are several valid reasons for including any class in WoW in a raid. In XI on the other hand, you could say "All we really need are x amount of y and z jobs and the rest is just filler".

catwho wrote:
Actually, NIN/RDM was popular in some HNMs for certain fights, to gain access to additional debuffs and Phalanx. So was PLD/RDM for that matter (I remember that being most used on Jailor of Love.)

NIN/DRK stun spam ftw? Props for being brave enough to use the words HNM and debuff in the same sentence.

NIN was good dps because they didn't rely on using gear to mitigate incoming damage except for the 'I cant count to 3 lol' macro that equipped evasion/PDT/interrupt gear if/when you accidentally cancelled shadows too late. After a certain point (which was reached fairly quickly after the encounter began) it didn't matter how much damage you did, the mob would attack whoever was hitting it the most. NIN had a clear advantage in holding aggro because they had access to a high amount of haste, dual wield traits and low delay. Stacked deck is stacked.

Edited, Dec 27th 2012 12:38am by FilthMcNasty
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#40 Dec 27 2012 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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It was just way too overpowered an ability to have, being able to negate all incoming single target damage and negate or mitigate AoE as well. The only adjustments they could have made to classes would either be to nerf utsusemi or buff other tank classes to be just as overpowered. The only reason that didn't happen was the way the job system worked.


They really needed to reduce the efficacy of Utsusemi, (and/or take Ni away from subjobs) and buff up the other heavy armor classes as viable tanks. They also needed to fix the DEF algorithm so that heavy armor classes actually had an opportunity to tank effectively. But yeah, in general they made mages and tanks too powerful. When you rely overly on the trinity system, it's easy to overlook actually balancing the three.
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#41 Dec 27 2012 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
It was just way too overpowered an ability to have, being able to negate all incoming single target damage and negate or mitigate AoE as well. The only adjustments they could have made to classes would either be to nerf utsusemi or buff other tank classes to be just as overpowered. The only reason that didn't happen was the way the job system worked.


They really needed to reduce the efficacy of Utsusemi, (and/or take Ni away from subjobs) and buff up the other heavy armor classes as viable tanks. They also needed to fix the DEF algorithm so that heavy armor classes actually had an opportunity to tank effectively. But yeah, in general they made mages and tanks too powerful. When you rely overly on the trinity system, it's easy to overlook actually balancing the three.


Back in my WHM days I preferred PLD to NIN. Much safer to have that meat shield than a papery thin NIN who, if they weren't on top of things, could go from full HP to dead in a heartbeat.
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#42 Dec 27 2012 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
It was just way too overpowered an ability to have, being able to negate all incoming single target damage and negate or mitigate AoE as well. The only adjustments they could have made to classes would either be to nerf utsusemi or buff other tank classes to be just as overpowered. The only reason that didn't happen was the way the job system worked.


They really needed to reduce the efficacy of Utsusemi, (and/or take Ni away from subjobs) and buff up the other heavy armor classes as viable tanks. They also needed to fix the DEF algorithm so that heavy armor classes actually had an opportunity to tank effectively. But yeah, in general they made mages and tanks too powerful. When you rely overly on the trinity system, it's easy to overlook actually balancing the three.


Back in my WHM days I preferred PLD to NIN. Much safer to have that meat shield than a papery thin NIN who, if they weren't on top of things, could go from full HP to dead in a heartbeat.


Or they'd Mijin Gakure and let you, the healer, take the xp loss, since the mob would eat you next.
#43 Dec 27 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
It was just way too overpowered an ability to have, being able to negate all incoming single target damage and negate or mitigate AoE as well. The only adjustments they could have made to classes would either be to nerf utsusemi or buff other tank classes to be just as overpowered. The only reason that didn't happen was the way the job system worked.


They really needed to reduce the efficacy of Utsusemi, (and/or take Ni away from subjobs) and buff up the other heavy armor classes as viable tanks. They also needed to fix the DEF algorithm so that heavy armor classes actually had an opportunity to tank effectively. But yeah, in general they made mages and tanks too powerful. When you rely overly on the trinity system, it's easy to overlook actually balancing the three.


Right, but the SE philosophy ondesign had never been to adjust the jobs themselves, rather than the content. Poor scaling already eliminated WAR from being a viable tank. The only other reasonable tank jobs post NIN were MNK which relied on relic for counter and BLU/PLD which came much later in the game's life.

Wint wrote:
Back in my WHM days I preferred PLD to NIN. Much safer to have that meat shield than a papery thin NIN who, if they weren't on top of things, could go from full HP to dead in a heartbeat.

Thing is, reworked PLD job abilities aside, a NIN with a decent set of -PDT cloth wasn't taking much more damage than a PLD in full plate, especially when you consider how much more MP a PLD soaked up over the course of a battle. Kachi's point about defense is right on.

Other than that, SE really should have reworked enmity. This would have been a much easier fix and would have made more of a difference in the game. I honestly would have been satisfied with increased enmity on self heals for paladin and increased enmity with decreased decay for incoming damage on WAR main's defender. The problem was really that SE expected people to rely too much on subjob choice to determine your role in a group rather than focusing on the strengths of the main job.
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#44 Jan 11 2013 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd have to second the FFT system. That was my favorite job system of any game. I wanted to pour hours into it because you didn't have to be a basic Squire for half the game before you were kickin' hard as a Dragoon or Ninja. I also liked jury-rigging interesting combinations of skills and abilities.

I hope they include more and more iconic classes, the way XI did, only it needs to be easier to master and obtain them. For the most famous classes, that are associated with the series the most, perhaps a FF1-style upgrade would be in order. Aion does something sort of like this, and offers two paths. Obviously, SE has more options on their hands. They could mix in a nice story and any dungeon would scale with party size, so nobody has to petition a bunch of strangers to randomly knock over that dragon in the cave.

Or maybe their FF2-style weapon-is-class system is okay, with the promise that you will have the abilities of later games. Maybe you can earn skills by wearing gear, as in VI, and then if you wear it long enough.. you learn it forever!

I just would be sad if they didn't exploit the lore in the class/job system as much as possible and use that to draw players in. When I saw that gaggle of chocobos in the recently released ARR movie, I squeed, hoping it wouldn't take forever to be able to ride one (maybe owning one would require more time). C'mon SE, work that IP.
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