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Alpha Video #8: Instanced DungeonsFollow

#102 Dec 30 2012 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
I like your system mostly, unfortunately all I can think about it people complaining about it. If you're able to get a group together to go kill the HNM with a healer, then you as a DD can just go to town and get max seals. A "casual" players going in there solo will have to step aside if he/she gets damaged, since that person doesn't have a healer with them, and thus will not get the same amount of seals. Oh no! The inhumanity! The unfairness!!! Smiley: disappointed
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#103 Dec 30 2012 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
I like your system mostly, unfortunately all I can think about it people complaining about it. If you're able to get a group together to go kill the HNM with a healer, then you as a DD can just go to town and get max seals. A "casual" players going in there solo will have to step aside if he/she gets damaged, since that person doesn't have a healer with them, and thus will not get the same amount of seals. Oh no! The inhumanity! The unfairness!!! Smiley: disappointed


That's very sad, but true... It's especially hard when you have to cater to different types of people. If I was the casual player, I probably won't mind cuz at least i'm still getting some seals. But you are right in that there are people out there that will think it is unfair. It is really hard to please everybody.

Although the healer can think of it this way, If she/he helps out that lone casual player he/she can gain more seals for doing extra heals and would also probably help bring down the mob faster. It's still comes down to how each person looks at the situation. thanks for your response on my idea though and being polite too :)
#104 Dec 30 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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That's more or less the way things work in GW2. Unfortunately balance based on the number of players often gets lost. I don't particularly like token systems either. It's not a bad system, but it strikes me as a sloppily obvious way to fix the immediate problem.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#105 Dec 31 2012 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Campaign and WoE come to mind and neither really worked well. If you're going to reward players then you can't have a system that is performance based or someone will always *****. Just give everyone the same reward for participation and call it a day. At the end of said day, people should be satisfied knowing that everyone was rewarded and you maybe even enjoyed it instead of just spamming whatever gets you the most performance points for participating.
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#106 Dec 31 2012 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Campaign and WoE come to mind and neither really worked well. If you're going to reward players then you can't have a system that is performance based or someone will always *****. Just give everyone the same reward for participation and call it a day. At the end of said day, people should be satisfied knowing that everyone was rewarded and you maybe even enjoyed it instead of just spamming whatever gets you the most performance points for participating.


I almost can't believe what I'm hearing. Can't have a performance-based system? Participation reward? That's the laziest design philosophy I've ever heard. I'm not trying to insult; I'm just truly incredulous.

The problem with these systems definitely deals with the way performance is evaluated, but giving up isn't the answer. Give players specific objectives to meet so that they aren't trying to appease an invisible judge. That and class balance are really all that are needed to make these events successful.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#107 Dec 31 2012 at 5:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Campaign and WoE come to mind and neither really worked well. If you're going to reward players then you can't have a system that is performance based or someone will always *****. Just give everyone the same reward for participation and call it a day. At the end of said day, people should be satisfied knowing that everyone was rewarded and you maybe even enjoyed it instead of just spamming whatever gets you the most performance points for participating.


While I can understand the frustration, this puts people who go over-the-top in participation (and even the middle-ground/average) in quite a predicament. There will always be people trying to find the path of least resistance, and I don't think player's who AFK through most of an event, or just /follow someone whilst talking to their guild/linkshell/etc., should be awarded equally as someone who actually focused on the task at hand. Of course, I'd like to think we could trust our fellow players, but let's be serious, the honor system doesn't work here. So no, we shouldn't just be satisfied knowing everyone got awarded.
#108 Dec 31 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Hey guys, my first mmorpg was ffxi and I fell in love. I can still remember when I got my earthen body abjuration from Nidhogg for my dark knight. It felt really good when I got to un-cursed that hauberk.

Reminiscing aside, I’ve been following FFXIV on the sidelines and would hope to join you guys when the ps3 version comes out. I’m writing this post with regards to how I think they should implement the Whole HNM thing because I felt the HNMs in ffxi was great, but that doesn’t mean they don’t change anything about it.

This is just my opinion, I think if they implement the world HNMs, they should make everyone in the zone be able to fight it, maybe kind of like besiege. People can just start wailing on it and if as a community you choose to do that, SE should make the fight longer by maybe making the HNM perform moves that can one-shot players or have individual attacks cause less damage. The other choice would be that the community could work together as a group and perform those limit breaks SE will be implementing, which can kill the HNM faster.

By now you might be wondering how the drops are going to be distributed. I think that these world HNMs would reward items like beastmen seals or kindred seals and base it on player’s performance on taking down the HNM. Those seals can then be used to fight the HNM with your desired party where the priced items can drop and the drop rate can be increase if you turn in more seals before the fight. This gives everyone in the community a chance to work for the price item. Also when you think about it, the world HNM can be use for practice for your real HNM fight with your party. This allows for collaboration and interaction within the community, which I think a lot of players would want.

I know there’s going to be those people that would want to ruin it for everyone. That’s why the seals will be based on the player’s performance. If he decide to just do his own thing then he can just get the bare minimum of the seals one can get and plus it would be hard for him to get a group for the HNM that drops the item since people know how he/she is.

Well that’s it for me. I just wanted to share my opinion on the whole HNM thing. There’s probably some flaws in this system so feel free to try and mend it.



They've tried this when XIV first launched back in 2010 and it was the first thing to go away. They used to base the amount of experience points someone received based on how much DD you did and a DoW and how much healing/DD you did as a conjuror(healer) or thaumaturge(black mage precurser). I can say from personaly experience that this is not a good way to go. It may sound good on paper, but it will destroy any fun you may have. Just due to the differences on each of the classes/jobs some will always be better in some circumstances than others. This system would discourage people to go as the job they enjoy playing as and cause them to go as the job that would get them the most reward everytime. I, as an archer, was getting very little exp when trying to level up initially because they had the accuracy nerfed so badly for archers I could hardly hit the side of a bard standing an arms length away from it. I didn't enjoy getting 0-15 exp per kill compared to others like the pugilists(monk precursers) or conjurors getting 500 exp per kill for the same time put in and less money since archers were paying for arrows. People were actually getting kicked out of parties by the conjuror leaders because people would accidently step outside the AoE for the heal spells and the healers exp would drop because of this. If they implement a system like this (I highly doubt they do because of this past experience), it will automatically bring a bad reputation due to the bad taste it left with everyone at initial launch time.
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#109 Dec 31 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yess, I was around when everyone in the PT was asked to stand in front of the Efts and eat every
single AOE NAKED, so the conjurers and thaumaturges had more HP`s to heal. Horrible, horrible.
#110 Dec 31 2012 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thats just it though. I think Kachi is right in his earlier post when he said something to the effect that participation based reward systems are examples of lazy design. And you're right when you say that performance based rewards sounds good on paper but in practice the experience system in XIV 1.0 didn't work. I think this points to the one thing I liked best about Tanaka, he took risks and was trying to push the envelope. I don't get that from Yoshi. I don't think there is anyone who disagrees the end result of 1.0 was awful. However, while I admire Yoshi for taking the game and turning it into something playable; I think most people agree he is building to an already pre-established standard. I'm not saying he is wrong for doing so, I'm saying I was more excited by the thought someone might be able to pull off a system that really rewards a player based on their skill level and not entirely based on the amount of time you sunk into it. Its the whole Thomas Edison 1,001 ways not to make a light bulb analogy. I hate to see them give up because I think the idea has merit.

I personally loved EXP chains in XI. They felt like great compensation for being able to kill monsters effectively and quickly as a group. I didn't cry about the token system Yoshi added in 1.0 and I won't cry about 2.0 if it ends up the same. I think it is great what they have done. I would just like to see SE as a company really push the boundaries of MMOs and RPGs.

Then again... maybe you are all right and it can't be done.


Edited, Dec 31st 2012 3:31pm by kainsilv
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#111 Dec 31 2012 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Who says it can't be done? There's one thing that will really push the MMO industry forward which is absent from most MMOs: challenging, well-balanced combat and fair incentives for doing it. Any company that does that while merely managing mediocrity in every other dimension will be set up to be a resounding success.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#112 Dec 31 2012 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Who says it can't be done? There's one thing that will really push the MMO industry forward which is absent from most MMOs: challenging, well-balanced combat and fair incentives for doing it. Any company that does that while merely managing mediocrity in every other dimension will be set up to be a resounding success.


Some ideas that could have helped fix the performance-based rewards of campaign in FFXI:

1) Have monsters run straight to a small area around the outpost, and if monsters are claimed and pulled away (in an attempt to hide n' solo), then the monster disengages and runs back to the area.

2) Do away with attacking fortifications in offensive campaigns. Instead, have a persistent stream of monsters that spawn as other monsters are killed off. Perhaps have a few waves, each separated by just a few minutes to reapply buffs or heal.

3) Healers/support players can only get experience by casting on campaign mobs, or players who have hate or have been damaged by campaign mobs.

4) Employ a "point-synching" technique so that people of different levels receive appropriate exp rewards given their different levels. This way, people would actually be rewarded based on effort and the degree of participation, rather than sheer numbers from the highest-level players.

(or)

4) Take a page from GW2's playbook sync everyone to equal levels for campaign-only combat (and possibly bar people from claiming or attacking non-campaign mobs during the event).
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#113 Jan 01 2013 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Campaign and WoE come to mind and neither really worked well. If you're going to reward players then you can't have a system that is performance based or someone will always *****. Just give everyone the same reward for participation and call it a day. At the end of said day, people should be satisfied knowing that everyone was rewarded and you maybe even enjoyed it instead of just spamming whatever gets you the most performance points for participating.


I almost can't believe what I'm hearing. Can't have a performance-based system? Participation reward? That's the laziest design philosophy I've ever heard. I'm not trying to insult; I'm just truly incredulous.

The problem with these systems definitely deals with the way performance is evaluated, but giving up isn't the answer. Give players specific objectives to meet so that they aren't trying to appease an invisible judge. That and class balance are really all that are needed to make these events successful.


Lets take WoE as an example. Due to the mechanic of how people were rewarded for performance, COR had a huge advantage when it came time to tally performance. At the time my LS started being active in the event I was usually on COR so I ended up getting the best loot because I always placed in the top and was rewarded with some booty(giggety). Needless to say, people didn't like it because they wanted loot and had almost no chance at getting it unless they were on COR, DNC or one of the few other jobs that had an advantage.

Campaign was pretty much the same. Jobs that could spam damage and buffs were getting more exp than other jobs. People also would kite mobs away from the main event area and solo off in some random corner of the map so that they could capitalize on the mechanics of the reward system.

Main point of my post is underlined. Anything can sound silly when taken out of context so try to read more than half of the first sentence prior to responding. I'm not saying that it's impossible to do, just that it usually leads to ********* SE is not prone to making systems that reward based on performance work well. If they can pull it off, great. If not, I really could care less as long as the event is enjoyable.

Both of the events mentioned above had, as you state 'specific objectives to meet'. The issue was that certain classes were able to meet these objectives much easier or in some cases faster than others. This led to players either taking loot chests in WoE or racking up enough points in campaign to go afk.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#114 Jan 01 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Sounds to me, again, like a simple balance issue. Objectives should (pretty obviously in my opinion) be class-specific and given to the individual, and if one class has it easier or harder, then you go the other direction.

If you give out objectives like they're high school groupwork, then you're going to get the same kind of ********* sure. But there are good ways to give group work; they depend on evaluating students independently and holding them to equal but different standards.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#115 Jan 01 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
4) Take a page from GW2's playbook sync everyone to equal levels for campaign-only combat (and possibly bar people from claiming or attacking non-campaign mobs during the event).


That would be GW2 taking a page from FFXI's Garrison playbook. Smiley: grin

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 3:14pm by Xoie
#116 Jan 02 2013 at 12:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Like some other people I don't understand why they're releasing this. I hope it's realized that for maximum efficiency, all you're doing is pressing 1, and then waiting three seconds, and then pressing 2. That's the performance ceiling. That's the entire "combat system" right now - that is, the alpha was a bunch of nothing in terms of combat.

I'm sure beta will add a layer or two, we know limit breaks will be implemented. But wow, it has to be at least slightly concerning that they would want to put this on display repeatedly.
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#117 Jan 02 2013 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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COR can melee, used ranged attacks, contribute magic damage through weaponskills and buff themselves and other classes. They have more tools to contribute to battles so it makes sense that they would attain their cap for offensive and defensive objectives more easily.

Your solution is to balance the content so that everyone has a fair shot at achieving these goals? What is the point if the end result is basically going to even the chance at getting the same rewards anyway?
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#118 Jan 02 2013 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
COR can melee, used ranged attacks, contribute magic damage through weaponskills and buff themselves and other classes. They have more tools to contribute to battles so it makes sense that they would attain their cap for offensive and defensive objectives more easily.

Your solution is to balance the content so that everyone has a fair shot at achieving these goals? What is the point if the end result is basically going to even the chance at getting the same rewards anyway?


I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking what the point of balancing the classes is? Why should players have a fair shot given their chosen class?

What I've been saying is that an invisible cap with vaguely defined universal objectives is, well, stupid. If you have a class that excels in damage, then it's objective should be to "deal X damage" or "kill X mobs" and the player should be able to view their progress towards that goal. That's how you implement a performance-based reward system. If a job has other strengths, you give it different types of objectives. If two classes essentially serve the same role, or if one class is entirely more flexible than the others, then that points to balance flaws, which again, aren't as prone to happen when classes are balanced against one another first instead of after the fact. But even failing that, if a class is simply "better" at contributing to the event, then you give it more demanding objectives than the other classes. Problem solved.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#119 Jan 02 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
COR can melee, used ranged attacks, contribute magic damage through weaponskills and buff themselves and other classes. They have more tools to contribute to battles so it makes sense that they would attain their cap for offensive and defensive objectives more easily.

Your solution is to balance the content so that everyone has a fair shot at achieving these goals? What is the point if the end result is basically going to even the chance at getting the same rewards anyway?


I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking what the point of balancing the classes is? Why should players have a fair shot given their chosen class?

What I've been saying is that an invisible cap with vaguely defined universal objectives is, well, stupid. If you have a class that excels in damage, then it's objective should be to "deal X damage" or "kill X mobs" and the player should be able to view their progress towards that goal. That's how you implement a performance-based reward system. If a job has other strengths, you give it different types of objectives. If two classes essentially serve the same role, or if one class is entirely more flexible than the others, then that points to balance flaws, which again, aren't as prone to happen when classes are balanced against one another first instead of after the fact. But even failing that, if a class is simply "better" at contributing to the event, then you give it more demanding objectives than the other classes. Problem solved.

No. Other jobs can't be balanced when compared to COR because they would have to give all jobs the ability to deal several types of damage and buff their party. This is almost the same discussion we had in the other thread. You don't adjust the classes, you adjust the content.

My point is, if you're adjusting either the classes or the content(whichever you prefer, the same idea applies) for 'balance', why not just even the scales at the end. If you give every class an objective that particular class excels in, you're essentially guaranteeing that every class will perform on the same level anyway. Why not just let the classes perform the way they do and give everyone the same reward for participation?

The only difference between the two is the part you included about tracking progress, which doesn't work well anyway.



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#120 Jan 02 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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No. Other jobs can't be balanced when compared to COR because they would have to give all jobs the ability to deal several types of damage and buff their party. This is almost the same discussion we had in the other thread. You don't adjust the classes, you adjust the content.

My point is, if you're adjusting either the classes or the content(whichever you prefer, the same idea applies) for 'balance', why not just even the scales at the end. If you give every class an objective that particular class excels in, you're essentially guaranteeing that every class will perform on the same level anyway. Why not just let the classes perform the way they do and give everyone the same reward for participation?

The only difference between the two is the part you included about tracking progress, which doesn't work well anyway.



Er, yes? Other jobs could be balanced compared to COR, but do you understand that that isn't even what I was suggesting? You don't need to adjust the classes OR the content; you can just adjust the objectives.

But I see your question now, I just really thought the answer would be obvious to anyone. You are SUPPOSED to ensure that every class will perform on the same level, because players expect, appreciate, and enjoy well-balanced content. That does not inherently "even the scales at the end." The PLAYER is supposed to be the factor that determines whether the objective is met--not the class. i.e., because players are different, when classes are balanced, simple participation rewards will not yield the same results assigned objectives.

As for tracking progress "not working well," that's just plainly untrue. Many games track progress toward objectives--even MMOs, and it works well.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#121 Jan 02 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
COR can melee, used ranged attacks, contribute magic damage through weaponskills and buff themselves and other classes. They have more tools to contribute to battles so it makes sense that they would attain their cap for offensive and defensive objectives more easily.

Your solution is to balance the content so that everyone has a fair shot at achieving these goals? What is the point if the end result is basically going to even the chance at getting the same rewards anyway?


I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking what the point of balancing the classes is? Why should players have a fair shot given their chosen class?

What I've been saying is that an invisible cap with vaguely defined universal objectives is, well, stupid. If you have a class that excels in damage, then it's objective should be to "deal X damage" or "kill X mobs" and the player should be able to view their progress towards that goal. That's how you implement a performance-based reward system. If a job has other strengths, you give it different types of objectives. If two classes essentially serve the same role, or if one class is entirely more flexible than the others, then that points to balance flaws, which again, aren't as prone to happen when classes are balanced against one another first instead of after the fact. But even failing that, if a class is simply "better" at contributing to the event, then you give it more demanding objectives than the other classes. Problem solved.

No. Other jobs can't be balanced when compared to COR because they would have to give all jobs the ability to deal several types of damage and buff their party. This is almost the same discussion we had in the other thread. You don't adjust the classes, you adjust the content.

My point is, if you're adjusting either the classes or the content(whichever you prefer, the same idea applies) for 'balance', why not just even the scales at the end. If you give every class an objective that particular class excels in, you're essentially guaranteeing that every class will perform on the same level anyway. Why not just let the classes perform the way they do and give everyone the same reward for participation?

The only difference between the two is the part you included about tracking progress, which doesn't work well anyway.





Blue Mage was also great at hitting all the caps. Some jobs just weren't even worth bothering with these types of "performance-based" rewards system, mainly all pure melee classes.

Its tough because without something LIKE this, you just have people AFKing, like we saw in 1.0 with Caravan Escort.
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#122 Jan 02 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Blue Mage was also great at hitting all the caps. Some jobs just weren't even worth bothering with these types of "performance-based" rewards system, mainly all pure melee classes.


Again, this is easily fixed by evaluating performance for different classes in different ways.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#123 Jan 02 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Blue Mage was also great at hitting all the caps. Some jobs just weren't even worth bothering with these types of "performance-based" rewards system, mainly all pure melee classes.


Again, this is easily fixed by evaluating performance for different classes in different ways.


PSHHHHHHHHH you mean it would require the developer to give love and care to the content and tailor it specifically for the game to be balanced? Get the **** out of here with your "ideas," this is SE, be thankful of your scraps and ask for no more than you're given!
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#124 Jan 02 2013 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Haha, rate up for you sir.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#125 Jan 02 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Er, yes? Other jobs could be balanced compared to COR, but do you understand that that isn't even what I was suggesting? You don't need to adjust the classes OR the content; you can just adjust the objectives.

Balancing other jobs to COR essentially turns them into COR. If the objectives are to deal x amount of melee/ranged damage, y amount of physical/magical damage and z amount of buffs/debuffs then you'd have to add these abilities to other jobs on the scale that COR has them.

Not sure about the consensus, but I'd prefer that the content not be handicapped according to what job I prefer playing. There was already enough elitist attitude in MMOs regarding personal performance to the point where I'd rather the content be designed to be challenging and enjoyable for all classes rather than force some sort of accountability through a rating system. I only see this leading to the elitist 'Your DPS must be this tall to ride' scenario that plagued upper level content. Slippery slope is slippery.

Kachi wrote:
As for tracking progress "not working well," that's just plainly untrue. Many games track progress toward objectives--even MMOs, and it works well.

If progress is tracked and there is an indicator that you'd satisfied all requirements for full experience gain, why continue? If you know that nothing you do beyond a certain point would increase your reward be it exp, conquest points or a chance at spoils, you're staring the reason people went AFK right in the face.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#126 Jan 02 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

If progress is tracked and there is an indicator that you'd satisfied all requirements for full experience gain, why continue? If you know that nothing you do beyond a certain point would increase your reward be it exp, conquest points or a chance at spoils, you're staring the reason people went AFK right in the face.


If it's so easy to satisfy all the requirements, then you make it harder. Or you just plainly don't cap it; if they complete the requirement then they do another. I mean, these solutions seem to stare one in the face. I really don't think you need me to spell these things out if you'll take a second to think about them.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#127 Jan 03 2013 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:

If progress is tracked and there is an indicator that you'd satisfied all requirements for full experience gain, why continue? If you know that nothing you do beyond a certain point would increase your reward be it exp, conquest points or a chance at spoils, you're staring the reason people went AFK right in the face.


If it's so easy to satisfy all the requirements, then you make it harder. Or you just plainly don't cap it; if they complete the requirement then they do another. I mean, these solutions seem to stare one in the face. I really don't think you need me to spell these things out if you'll take a second to think about them.


Right, but the point is that it doesn't work well with or without the cap in campaign or WoE, respectively.

If there is a cap on performance points as there is in campaign, you do what you need to do to reach cap and then reset your campaign status to get more or go afk if you can't be bothered to scour the zone for mobs that people kited off to solo. If there is no cap like in WoE, people will want to go on jobs that give them the best chance to place higher than others.

I agree that the system is flawed, but adjusting it to level the playing field is essentially giving everyone the chance to either cap points as fast as the next person(where capped) or accrue as many points as the next person(where uncapped) so that they have an even chance to achieve 1st place. Again, if you're going to give everyone an even chance to get top tier loot, why not just give everyone the same chance for satisfying a general participation requirement. For all intents and purposes, it's the same thing without the fuss of having to come up with some elaborate system of handicapping or penalties.

Rewarding players for performance while setting up a system that is supposed to maintain even performance across the board is a nonsense approach to barance.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#128 Jan 03 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Basically, like Kachi said, you make different reqs. and different caps per job.

As a DRG, I should get rated on buffs or debuffs or magic. It should be pure dmg. So, give Drg a much higher cap on Phys Dmg.

Give all jobs a hard point cap, give every dmg a value, set different caps based on what the job can do. Drg would only have 1 pool to cap, so they should get that faster. I'm explaining this poorly, but it's a really easy concept. Have the system in place where everyone can cap within the same amount of time, and adjust as you go based on data received.

Again, this would take a level of effort we are not used to from SE.
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#129 Jan 03 2013 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
Just to be the voice of "what if?"

Take CNJ and DRG for this example. Large portion of CNJ "cap" objective is amount of HP healed, which is fine when the event takes place as intended with lots of people. DRG "cap" is purely damage dealt. The DRG will hit their cap almost every time, while the CNJ cap may not be met if there simply aren't enough people around taking damage. This could be due to an NA playing at peak EU time or something. How do you balance that, then?
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#130 Jan 03 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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I would think that Cnj would have 2 pools, buffs and heals. Whm was a job that has always been pretty easy to cap in these events. In besieged you would have an army of Whms healing the Generals and NPCs and they were heroes for it, haha.
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#131 Jan 03 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Have the system in place where everyone can cap within the same amount of time, and adjust as you go based on data received.

I'll agree that SE isn't likely to come up with an elaborate system of tracking or even just monitoring progress, but if everyone can end up on the same level fairly easily then why bother? Everyone would end up on the same or a close enough level of performance that they all deserve the same chance at loot so why would this be different from just saying "Everyone has x% chance of getting loot if they complete the event"? It's basically the same as just having a flat drop rate for everyone who participates in the event.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#132 Jan 03 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Have the system in place where everyone can cap within the same amount of time, and adjust as you go based on data received.

I'll agree that SE isn't likely to come up with an elaborate system of tracking or even just monitoring progress, but if everyone can end up on the same level fairly easily then why bother? Everyone would end up on the same or a close enough level of performance that they all deserve the same chance at loot so why would this be different from just saying "Everyone has x% chance of getting loot if they complete the event"? It's basically the same as just having a flat drop rate for everyone who participates in the event.


I think it depends on what level SE decides to put the content. You mention that if everyone can end up on the same level "fairly easily" they might as well give everyone the same rewards just for participating which I think is true in the sense that it might be the better option just because it means less developing and attention from SE so they can focus on other things. It is the easy way out after all.

However if the level of effort and skill required is quite high to reach the highest rewards I think we get a different story and if the rewards are going to be items that are actually pretty good I definitely think a system which differentiates based on effort is the superior option. It would require a lot more effort from SE in balancing so that all jobs get as close to each other as possible when it comes to effort vs reward though.

A system like what Kachi suggested makes sense to me tbh, each job has different objectives entirely so that everyone gets a chance to reach the higher tiers entirely based on effort and how well you can play that job instead of what job you are playing.
#133 Jan 03 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Have the system in place where everyone can cap within the same amount of time, and adjust as you go based on data received.

I'll agree that SE isn't likely to come up with an elaborate system of tracking or even just monitoring progress, but if everyone can end up on the same level fairly easily then why bother? Everyone would end up on the same or a close enough level of performance that they all deserve the same chance at loot so why would this be different from just saying "Everyone has x% chance of getting loot if they complete the event"? It's basically the same as just having a flat drop rate for everyone who participates in the event.


The level of performance should be based on skill and/or effort. If two players are the same class, and that automatically makes them perform the same, then your game has much deeper flaws than your incentive system. In my experience, that can't even be said about FFXI, which is a relatively low-skill game.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#134 Jan 03 2013 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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Just my 6 cents to mention after watching these vids:

1) I just hope that every job has versatility and utility in general. By versatility, i mean that there is more than just 1 way to play a job. Even in group settings i would like to see some kind of moderate flexibility in how you can play. WoW managed to overkill this with skill trees and XI did it with sub jobs. Of course in XI, there were only so many viable SJ's to use with a job and the variations were marginal at best. I dont know the best way to incorporate this feature without diluting or overlapping skills with other jobs to the point where everyone is a swiss army knife.

2) And by Utility, i would hope that every job has a unique function about them in battle aside from the melee DD, range DD, or heal function that they're assigned to. Kind of like how thief had SATA and treasure hunter or like how red mage had a unique support role. It seems like they're doing this so far.

3) if the battle system is going to favor a faster pace, i am a little worried that i wont know or see what my team is doing. The best part about XI's pace was that i could see the entire party's actions, while being able to communicate TP% for skill chains and other coordinated attacks. I really hope there is some kind of combo system, whether individual, team based, or both so that it keeps battle engaging. WoW was really lacking in that department, it was more twitch reaction (ex: sheep the skull icon, trap the X icon, or kite the diamond icon) and then spam dps after. But at the same time, it would be nice if the party could move a bit, unlike the camp > pull > kill > rest cycle that XI had.

4) As for scaling mob difficulty and instancing, i hope they keep it similar to XI where there were parts where you had to pay attention to where you're exploring or else get killed by something horrific (elementals, gobs, giants, etc). but at the same time, have solo friendly areas where mobs are easy to a moderate fight. I know they want to keep the game more solo friendly than XI, i just hope they find the right balance for this. In WoW this only mattered when you were instanced and fighting elites, or if an opposing faction was harassing your side of the world.

5) For Instancing, hopefully it will not be overdone like they did in WoW. I want the journey to becoming max level to be both challenging and rewarding at each phase of each job like they did in XI. In WoW, everyone can basically get a max level everything with top tier gear by grinding instances and raids. I would like to see more pride in the job you decide to take on, this worked well in XI. Lastly, I would like to see some kind of function for a zone other than grinding quests. In other words i want beginning zones to still matter even after you outgrow it. Pulling was an art in XI, and i hope they can keep some of that style intact in light of the faster pace. Too many instances will make the open world a disconnected place to the point where nobody will care to explore it anymore.

6) What made XI my favorite MMO ever was the social aspect. This was something sorely missed in WoW, because in WoW you could be very independent and everyone was competitive & aggressive with each other. I would like some kind of community collaboration and demand for helpful types of players. The best thing i can give as an example is the WHM in Jeuno who you always knew gave teleports for cheap or the random whm nearby who would offer a raise. WHM, RDM, and BRD were probably everyone's best friend in XI for party settings, but also a b**ch to find at times. I hope there's a way to incorporate this without feeling like they're as rare as diamonds.
#135 Jan 04 2013 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Have the system in place where everyone can cap within the same amount of time, and adjust as you go based on data received.

I'll agree that SE isn't likely to come up with an elaborate system of tracking or even just monitoring progress, but if everyone can end up on the same level fairly easily then why bother? Everyone would end up on the same or a close enough level of performance that they all deserve the same chance at loot so why would this be different from just saying "Everyone has x% chance of getting loot if they complete the event"? It's basically the same as just having a flat drop rate for everyone who participates in the event.


The level of performance should be based on skill and/or effort. If two players are the same class, and that automatically makes them perform the same, then your game has much deeper flaws than your incentive system. In my experience, that can't even be said about FFXI, which is a relatively low-skill game.

The level of performance is based on how much you contribute. In the case of WoE, you get more points for performance by contributing multiple types of damage and by healing and buffing yourself and your group and certain jobs excel because they can fill multiple roles.

The only issue I have with the idea you presented is that it's kind of redundant. Strictly DD jobs are already going to be focusing on putting out as much damage as possible. Same goes for healers and supports. Any adjustments which keep players from achieving something they're already tasked to do is borderline 'gear check'.

What about healing classes? I'd assume that their performance would be based on how much health they restore, but that presents another problem. DD try to dish out as much damage as possible while avoiding taking unnecessary damage. If your DD are avoiding damage, which I'd consider part of their performance, then they're ******** over your healers because there is less health to be restored and subsequently, less performance points for the healers...
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#136 Jan 04 2013 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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XI is basically a game based around gear-checks... there's really not much getting around that. If you're using FFXI as a standard for MMO principles in action, then you're starting from a flawed place. If you want me to tell you the dozens of changes I would make to XI, we could be here all day.

If you don't use XI as a reference point, then it becomes very obvious that the problems you're describing don't inherently exist if you don't create them in the first place.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#137 Jan 04 2013 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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There were very few HNM that required top notch gear to defeat so I don't really agree on the 'gear check' statement. Dealing various types of damage in WoE wasn't reliant on gear. It was completely possible for a casually geared player to cap out several times over the course of a campaign battle so it didn't really apply there either.

It's not about fixing all the issues in XI. The specific issue we're talking about isn't worth reworking the mechanics of the game when there is an easier fix that doesn't require handicapping to simulate balance between jobs; especially when the jobs aren't supposed to perform on the same level anyway.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 2:26am by FilthMcNasty
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#138 Jan 04 2013 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Have the system in place where everyone can cap within the same amount of time, and adjust as you go based on data received.

I'll agree that SE isn't likely to come up with an elaborate system of tracking or even just monitoring progress, but if everyone can end up on the same level fairly easily then why bother? Everyone would end up on the same or a close enough level of performance that they all deserve the same chance at loot so why would this be different from just saying "Everyone has x% chance of getting loot if they complete the event"? It's basically the same as just having a flat drop rate for everyone who participates in the event.


Because if you don't perform at the top of your jobs ability, you get a lower chance. You make the requirements to cap tough for each job, based on what that job can do, to encourage active participation and disuade thigns like level 1 bards singing at the campaign arbiter, or afkers.

I don't think this kind of system would do well for HNMS or other content where you would gather a party or a linkshell. I always prefer a token-based economy for that. 1 kill gets a token to all involved, spend those tokens on the items you want, no ls leaders taking the spoils and breaking the shell, no new players getting disillusioned because they haven't "earned their keep" and have to go droppless for weeks.

But any content that doesn't require responsibility of the player, any open content where a leader can't kick leeches, should be performance-based, or else the worst in laziness will come out. It happened with the tail end of 1.0 with the Atomos event. People would show up to the events and stand there while everyone else did the killing of Atomos, then claim the rewards. Even worse, they realized you could use the seals you got from it to purchase an NPC-sellable item over and over and exploit a glitch to make tons of gil. They did that too.
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#139 Jan 04 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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********* since it would mean that even the way you play your job is dictated by the formula used to "calculate" your performance.
Job-specific algorythms are just another way to cement cookie-cutter roles.
Like, because baby Jesus hates the BRD that usues his own head and switches to main-healing in replacement of the dc`d WHM.
#140 Jan 04 2013 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Bullsh*t, since it would mean that even the way you play your job is dictated by the formula used to "calculate" your performance.
Job-specific algorythms are just another way to cement cookie-cutter roles.
Like, because baby Jesus hates the BRD that usues his own head and switches to main-healing in replacement of the dc`d WHM.


Sorry, but I will take that any day above people AFKing and getting the same rewards as people actually doing all the work. Not only because I think that is a worse problem, but also because I think it is a more common problem.
#141 Jan 04 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Default
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jidko02 wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
I like your system mostly, unfortunately all I can think about it people complaining about it. If you're able to get a group together to go kill the HNM with a healer, then you as a DD can just go to town and get max seals. A "casual" players going in there solo will have to step aside if he/she gets damaged, since that person doesn't have a healer with them, and thus will not get the same amount of seals. Oh no! The inhumanity! The unfairness!!! Smiley: disappointed


That's very sad, but true... It's especially hard when you have to cater to different types of people. If I was the casual player, I probably won't mind cuz at least i'm still getting some seals. But you are right in that there are people out there that will think it is unfair. It is really hard to please everybody.

Although the healer can think of it this way, If she/he helps out that lone casual player he/she can gain more seals for doing extra heals and would also probably help bring down the mob faster. It's still comes down to how each person looks at the situation. thanks for your response on my idea though and being polite too :)


The typical MMO gamer (age 18-35) absolutely will think it's unfair. Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified. In this day and age everything has to conform to what the lowest common denominator wants... hence, that's what we'll get from XIV.

#142 Jan 04 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Have two formulas. One based on number of actions taken, one based on the amount of damage dealt. Pick the higher of the two totals for the reward base.

So a white mage who is constantly curing is taking actions on other players and racking up the action points, but earning very little in the damage department. A black mage is taking fewer actions but getting BIG NUMBERS just like the DD. Both amounts are calculated - the WHM's frequent actions put them in the tier calculated by actions taken, the BLM's high damage puts them in the damage tier. Hybrid jobs like DNC would likely end up in the "actions taken" tier
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#143 Jan 04 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Just to put my 2 cents on the "instanced" vs "open-world" debate :

If quests are made difficult enough in open world, you will undoubtedly encounter people who need help, and that will provide opportunity to make friends throughout normal play.

However, while I am instinctively against "instanced" areas, I do have to admit that, years later, reflecting back on my time in WoW, the majority of the friends I made in that game were made in pick-up-group based instances. We'd usually take 3 of us close friends into an instance, and pick-up a couple strangers to fill needed roles. Sure, the gear-drop system in WoW is god-awful terrible, so occasionally pick-ups would ***** you out of items, but generally speaking, this was a great way to make friends. Let me tell you that if you do a five man (or similar) instance with people who have never really had a chance, and spend time to communicate with them via chat, there is a very good chance that person will appreciate the experience. You will always run into jerks / a-holes, but as long as you combine a great-deal of knowledge of the game with kindness, more often than not the experience will be enjoyable for you as well.

For me instances are a bonding experience in themselves, so while you may not run into people 'inside' that dungeon, you can certainly run into people outside that dungeon and take them inside with you.

I can't think of more than a handful of times in WoW where I encountered someone questing that became a long-term friend, but I can think of countless times I made new friends by doing pick-up group instances.
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#144 Jan 04 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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je355804 wrote:
Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified.


I'm not entirely convinced that access to medical care is the same thing as wanting one's MMORPGs to be sign-posted, but I'll lurk with strong hopes that this thread becomes horribly derailed.

Smiley: popcorn


Edited, Jan 4th 2013 11:39am by KaneKitty
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#145 Jan 04 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Default
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Reading some of the comments here... Damm since when do you people not play MMO'S ? Afking being a problem ? Really ? When you see somebody afk, you kick him from your Party/LS/Guild and be done with it, and there are tools for seeing who is contributing on an engagement, if you suspect a mage or w/e afking, bring out your Dps meter, and see how much dps he did in the fight :)

As far as loot is concerned, in XIV there will always be problems, because everybody can use every single piece of gear, so either you rely on your party/ls leader to distribute the loot correctly, or you will get ninja once in a blue moon.

And please whoever said the gear drop system in wow is terrible does not know what he is talking about. It is a trillion light years ahead of both XI and XIV.
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#146 Jan 04 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Reading some of the comments here... Damm since when do you people not play MMO'S ? Afking being a problem ? Really ? When you see somebody afk, you kick him from your Party/LS/Guild and be done with it, and there are tools for seeing who is contributing on an engagement, if you suspect a mage or w/e afking, bring out your Dps meter, and see how much dps he did in the fight :)


In fairness, and this is just my general observation of any mentions of AFK here, a lot of that has been in relation to FFXI's Campaign mechanics, which a party, LS, or guild couldn't really do jack about. Some things are the responsibility of the developers.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 12:04pm by Satisiun
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#147 Jan 04 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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je355804 wrote:
The typical MMO gamer (age 18-35) absolutely will think it's unfair. Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified. In this day and age everything has to conform to what the lowest common denominator wants... hence, that's what we'll get from XIV.

Fair




Edited, Jan 4th 2013 1:06pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#148 Jan 04 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Reading some of the comments here... Damm since when do you people not play MMO'S ? Afking being a problem ? Really ? When you see somebody afk, you kick him from your Party/LS/Guild and be done with it, and there are tools for seeing who is contributing on an engagement, if you suspect a mage or w/e afking, bring out your Dps meter, and see how much dps he did in the fight :)


Again, not a problem when you group, but FATE's, and other such open world content is what we're talking about. Situations where you cannot control who joins your party.
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#149 Jan 04 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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je355804 wrote:
The typical MMO gamer (age 18-35) absolutely will think it's unfair. Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified. In this day and age everything has to conform to what the lowest common denominator wants... hence, that's what we'll get from XIV.


Or maybe you should be thankful you live in a country where your biggest concern is whether your favorite MMO will be too casual or hardcore? Because when you consider a billion people are going to bed hungry tonight, millions more live in war zones where they are surrounded by death and destruction, you realize that life really isn't fair, but on a scale way beyond a stupid game that you have the luxury to get agitated about or a president who may or may not fix the most expensive healthcare system in the world.

Just to put it in perspective for you.
#150 Jan 04 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
XI is basically a game based around gear-checks... there's really not much getting around that. If you're using FFXI as a standard for MMO principles in action, then you're starting from a flawed place. If you want me to tell you the dozens of changes I would make to XI, we could be here all day.

If you don't use XI as a reference point, then it becomes very obvious that the problems you're describing don't inherently exist if you don't create them in the first place.


Why not use it as a reference point? or any other MMO for that matter? Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 2:03pm by balishag
#151 Jan 04 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Have two formulas. One based on number of actions taken, one based on the amount of damage dealt. Pick the higher of the two totals for the reward base.

So a white mage who is constantly curing is taking actions on other players and racking up the action points, but earning very little in the damage department. A black mage is taking fewer actions but getting BIG NUMBERS just like the DD. Both amounts are calculated - the WHM's frequent actions put them in the tier calculated by actions taken, the BLM's high damage puts them in the damage tier. Hybrid jobs like DNC would likely end up in the "actions taken" tier


This doesn't address the 'afk spamming abilities' problem. You can have a way to make sure people are participating to be rewarded, but the performance scale doesn't do anything to promote this. Developing fun content does.

Balishag wrote:
Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

No.

Gear check in WoW is used differently then it was translated here. It was content that you were not geared enough to clear at all. It meant that your group couldn't do enough damage fast enough to down a boss before it's enrage timer was up and/or your healers couldn't keep up with the damage your group was taking.

In XI, any competent group of AH bought players could keep exp chains going. It had much more to do with your puller than your gear. Even with higher level content, I've seen the most gimp lowman RMT groups taking down HNM like Behemoth, Fafnir, Adamantoise and all of the HQ counterparts.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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