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#152 Jan 04 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
je355804 wrote:
The typical MMO gamer (age 18-35) absolutely will think it's unfair. Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified. In this day and age everything has to conform to what the lowest common denominator wants... hence, that's what we'll get from XIV.


Or maybe you should be thankful you live in a country where your biggest concern is whether your favorite MMO will be too casual or hardcore? Because when you consider a billion people are going to bed hungry tonight, millions more live in war zones where they are surrounded by death and destruction, you realize that life really isn't fair, but on a scale way beyond a stupid game that you have the luxury to get agitated about or a president who may or may not fix the most expensive healthcare system in the world.

Just to put it in perspective for you.


I like you Smiley: thumbsup
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#153 Jan 04 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
je355804 wrote:
The typical MMO gamer (age 18-35) absolutely will think it's unfair. Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified. In this day and age everything has to conform to what the lowest common denominator wants... hence, that's what we'll get from XIV.


Or maybe you should be thankful you live in a country where your biggest concern is whether your favorite MMO will be too casual or hardcore? Because when you consider a billion people are going to bed hungry tonight, millions more live in war zones where they are surrounded by death and destruction, you realize that life really isn't fair, but on a scale way beyond a stupid game that you have the luxury to get agitated about or a president who may or may not fix the most expensive healthcare system in the world.

Just to put it in perspective for you.



Ohh save your self righteous bs. This is a --let me be condescending and bold this for you like you did-- Video Game forum -- so maybe, just maybe, since you're so concerned, you should spend MUCH less time here and you should be out there doing something about this cruel wartorn world we live in.

And to your "most expensive healthcare in the world" comment... Last time I checked, when the presidents/leaders of those "really-awesome" health care systems in communists (or communist masquerading as a democracy) countries need urgent health care, how come I always see their motorcades at the Cleveland Clinic and not at Free-Health-Care-Is-Us X communist hospital? Oh that's right, because that expensive healthcare system; which still provides free urgent care to ANYONE who walks through the door, affords us the most incredible healthcare in the world.

And p.s. I save lives everyday -- as in LITERALLY, so I definitely don't need a lecture from you and your bleeding heart. If you also do something righteous then fine (and that's great), I don't know you in real life, so I'm not going to claim to know how you live your life.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 4:22pm by je355804
#154 Jan 04 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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free urgent care


Stopped reading here because you have no idea what the **** you're talking about. It's not "free" for anyone - not the patient, not the healthcare provider, and not the state which is ultimately forced to foot the bill.
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#155 Jan 04 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Quote:
free urgent care


Stopped reading here because you have no idea what the @#%^ you're talking about. It's not "free" for anyone - not the patient, not the healthcare provider, and not the state which is ultimately forced to foot the bill.


Seconded. Pwny pweeze.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#156 Jan 04 2013 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
catwho wrote:
Have two formulas. One based on number of actions taken, one based on the amount of damage dealt. Pick the higher of the two totals for the reward base.

So a white mage who is constantly curing is taking actions on other players and racking up the action points, but earning very little in the damage department. A black mage is taking fewer actions but getting BIG NUMBERS just like the DD. Both amounts are calculated - the WHM's frequent actions put them in the tier calculated by actions taken, the BLM's high damage puts them in the damage tier. Hybrid jobs like DNC would likely end up in the "actions taken" tier


This doesn't address the 'afk spamming abilities' problem. You can have a way to make sure people are participating to be rewarded, but the performance scale doesn't do anything to promote this. Developing fun content does.

Balishag wrote:
Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

No.

Gear check in WoW is used differently then it was translated here. It was content that you were not geared enough to clear at all. It meant that your group couldn't do enough damage fast enough to down a boss before it's enrage timer was up and/or your healers couldn't keep up with the damage your group was taking.

In XI, any competent group of AH bought players could keep exp chains going. It had much more to do with your puller than your gear. Even with higher level content, I've seen the most gimp lowman RMT groups taking down HNM like Behemoth, Fafnir, Adamantoise and all of the HQ counterparts.



Even if you say its different, gear check is gear check. And how would it ever be eliminated from an MMO? Even though the nature of gear checking could vary slightly, it still ties into how efficient your group will be. Like i said, when time is invested like it is in MMO's then the players will demand that their time be spent efficiently. Its just the simple nature of things on MMO's or in real life, idealistically it shouldnt matter if everything were based on skill. But if that were true then employers would know that im 6 figure worthy without having to look at my resume right?

Pulling mobs in XI was definitely an art, but exp chains were more viable when your puller had extra time to find a mob. And in order to buy that time, you'd have to kill a mob faster. Also, having a geared group would also mean your decrease in downtime inbetween fights would facilitate a faster puller. Lets just say that gear + skill = better efficiency, and unfortunately we live in a world full of superficial opinions. In the end, gear checking provides atleast a type of guarantee, whether or not they AH bought it or earned it is irrelevant.
#157 Jan 04 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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je355804 wrote:
Xoie wrote:
je355804 wrote:
The typical MMO gamer (age 18-35) absolutely will think it's unfair. Let's see... they just elected a president based on catch-phrases like "fair share, fair shake etc etc." We live in a time where everyone wants everything to be easy and simplified. In this day and age everything has to conform to what the lowest common denominator wants... hence, that's what we'll get from XIV.


Or maybe you should be thankful you live in a country where your biggest concern is whether your favorite MMO will be too casual or hardcore? Because when you consider a billion people are going to bed hungry tonight, millions more live in war zones where they are surrounded by death and destruction, you realize that life really isn't fair, but on a scale way beyond a stupid game that you have the luxury to get agitated about or a president who may or may not fix the most expensive healthcare system in the world.

Just to put it in perspective for you.



Ohh save your self righteous bs. This is a --let me be condescending and bold this for you like you did-- Video Game forum -- so maybe, just maybe, since you're so concerned, you should spend MUCH less time here and you should be out there doing something about this cruel wartorn world we live in.

And to your "most expensive healthcare in the world" comment... Last time I checked, when the presidents/leaders of those "really-awesome" health care systems in communists (or communist masquerading as a democracy) countries need urgent health care, how come I always see their motorcades at the Cleveland Clinic and not at Free-Health-Care-Is-Us X communist hospital? Oh that's right, because that expensive healthcare system; which still provides free urgent care to ANYONE who walks through the door, affords us the most incredible healthcare in the world.

And p.s. I save lives everyday -- as in LITERALLY, so I definitely don't need a lecture from you and your bleeding heart. If you also do something righteous then fine (and that's great), I don't know you in real life, so I'm not going to claim to know how you live your life.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 4:22pm by je355804


Not here. You want to have that ******* match, feel free to head over to OoT or The Asylum, they'll love you over there. Keep it on topic guys or I'll start locking stuff.
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#158 Jan 04 2013 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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@jeidiotsomething
I think your view of the world is a bit skewed. There are plenty of countries which manage to have both free and excellent healthcare.
In fact, most countries in Europe have that advantage...
#159 Jan 04 2013 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Next person who posts about healthcare gets 10 rate downs and I lock the thread. Sound good? Smiley: nod
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#160 Jan 04 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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TANSTAAFL...

How about those instanced dungeons?

I'm not a fan of instancing stuff as I much prefer the openworld experience and my worst nightmare is a 'MMO' lobby game where you auto group and are transported to a instance.

There are exceptions like when specific content is balanced to challenge a set number of players. Some openworld things aren't as much fun if you and 40 of your friends defeat it in 2 seconds.
#161 Jan 04 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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WoW's gear check is a formal game mechanic at this point. Can't beat the next tier of bosses without the previous tier gear; its mathematically impossible.

XI's gear check is more of a side effect of weird game design, and is often manufactured by the community. From what i understand, no one wants to do Legion without relic/empy/mythic holders, but even that isn't the same.

XI doesn't have the same tiered progression of gear. It has weird specific cases such as PLD needing Aegis/Ochain to be "viable", or DRG/mage needing 2 armets, a special macro, and a bunch of +wyvern HP gear to solo tougher opponents. Or NIN and AF3+2 boots. None of these things really fall under the umbrella of "gear check" as the term has come to be defined.

Quote:
How about those instanced dungeons?

I'm not a fan of instancing stuff as I much prefer the openworld experience and my worst nightmare is a 'MMO' lobby game where you auto group and are transported to a instance.

There are exceptions like when specific content is balanced to challenge a set number of players. Some openworld things aren't as much fun if you and 40 of your friends defeat it in 2 seconds.


A balance of instances and open world content is ideal for the most part. They each provide gameplay features that the other cannot.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 7:22pm by Llester
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#162 Jan 04 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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balishag wrote:

Why not use it as a reference point? or any other MMO for that matter? Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 2:03pm by balishag


Because skill should be the most important element in your victory--not things that happened before the battle even began--because that's what makes games fun.

Obviously most MMOs are centered on the idea of getting stronger and gaining better gear. That should be an important element, but games that rely too heavily on that by creating must-have items and large discrepancies between bonuses rather than incremental improvements are using an approach with a very limited appeal.

Most MMOs aren't really that good-- as players, critics, and designers widely acknowledge--so why use flawed games from nearly a decade ago as the reference point for the good systems of today?
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#163 Jan 04 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
balishag wrote:

Why not use it as a reference point? or any other MMO for that matter? Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 2:03pm by balishag


Because skill should be the most important element in your victory--not things that happened before the battle even began--because that's what makes games fun.

Execution, not skill. The 'skill debate' has been had too many times, but I guess people just use the word skill because it's common. Also, you don't win tough encounters without planning and prep. Finding strategies to overcome obstacles would be a big part of 'fun' for a lot of people, myself included, so it should stand that things that happen prior to engaging do contribute.

Kachi wrote:
Obviously most MMOs are centered on the idea of getting stronger and gaining better gear. That should be an important element, but games that rely too heavily on that by creating must-have items and large discrepancies between bonuses rather than incremental improvements are using an approach with a very limited appeal.

WoW uses the same approach and doesn't have limited appeal. Actually, most popular MMOs use the same or similar approach so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#164 Jan 04 2013 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
balishag wrote:

Why not use it as a reference point? or any other MMO for that matter? Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 2:03pm by balishag


Because skill should be the most important element in your victory--not things that happened before the battle even began--because that's what makes games fun.

Obviously most MMOs are centered on the idea of getting stronger and gaining better gear. That should be an important element, but games that rely too heavily on that by creating must-have items and large discrepancies between bonuses rather than incremental improvements are using an approach with a very limited appeal.

Most MMOs aren't really that good-- as players, critics, and designers widely acknowledge--so why use flawed games from nearly a decade ago as the reference point for the good systems of today?


Agreed, skill should be the most important element in victory, but skill is not something easily gauged looking from the outside unless there is some kind of point scoring or ranking system. But even a ranking or scoring system would present a similar problem in itself. There is no fix for the gear checking problem, except a strong leap of faith in who you're partying with.

The part that i dont agree with is the flawed nature of MMO's. All games in all genres have a flawed nature to them, but sometimes the inherent flaws are what make the game more satisfying. its the delta between their acceptible flaws vs their rewards in overcoming them, is what determines the type of player base XIV ARR will facilitate. If the delta isnt wide enough, then everyone will be leveled, rich, and geared - this is what happened in WoW and as a result the game was flooded with 'casual' players' that were able to stick around for longer. But on the flip side, XI had a much larger delta, and the opposite of WoW resulted. So it has yet to be determined where the balance is going to fall. I imagine that this game will try to fall somewhere in between, that is atleast my hope.

So, referencing previous successful MMO's can teach us about what went right and what went wrong, or what we want and what we dont. And from there, we as XIV gamers can help figure out how to right the wrongs of the previous 1.0 version.
#166 Jan 04 2013 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
balishag wrote:

Why not use it as a reference point? or any other MMO for that matter? Most if not all MMO's are based on some type of gear check, especially if there is time investment involved. Most of the EXP grind in XI was based on how fast you could EXP chain, well geared groups would take down mobs fast enough to where you can get atleast to chain #4 or #5. In WoW, gear dictated how fast and efficient you would get through an instance/raid. No matter what, gear checking will be involved.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 2:03pm by balishag


Because skill should be the most important element in your victory--not things that happened before the battle even began--because that's what makes games fun.

Execution, not skill. The 'skill debate' has been had too many times, but I guess people just use the word skill because it's common. Also, you don't win tough encounters without planning and prep. Finding strategies to overcome obstacles would be a big part of 'fun' for a lot of people, myself included, so it should stand that things that happen prior to engaging do contribute.

Kachi wrote:
Obviously most MMOs are centered on the idea of getting stronger and gaining better gear. That should be an important element, but games that rely too heavily on that by creating must-have items and large discrepancies between bonuses rather than incremental improvements are using an approach with a very limited appeal.

WoW uses the same approach and doesn't have limited appeal. Actually, most popular MMOs use the same or similar approach so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.


Execution is a part of skill. I'm not going to break off into a semantic debate because they're stupid, but skill is an apt word choice which encompasses execution. It's not that prep work doesn't contribute, but "set it and forget it" games readily demonstrate that it is not sufficient on its own. Meanwhile, games without prepwork demonstrate how vital engagement during the battle is.

As for WoW, it absolutely has limited appeal. You're confusing "small" with "limited." The fact is, there is a limit to the WoW market, and it's already been filled for many years... by WoW (not to mention dozens of other games that copied it). Novelty plays a powerful role in enjoyment, and that means that something with a limited appeal can be extremely successful over a short time. WoW is very accessible and scratches that itch, but it lacks the depth that would make the appeal last, and most importantly, it's appeal is waning because players are increasingly bored with it.

Quote:
So, referencing previous successful MMO's can teach us about what went right and what went wrong, or what we want and what we dont. And from there, we as XIV gamers can help figure out how to right the wrongs of the previous 1.0 version.


See above for why that isn't necessarily true. If you play for 3-4 years, that's really a small portion of your lifetime as a gamer. It's fine to reference and learn from, but to take any successful aspect as a given that it should be retained is entirely fallacious. Just because something works well for a while doesn't mean it will maintain interest. That's one of the main reasons why all these WoW clones fail, and even games which try to build upon the WoW formula with significant improvements STILL fail.

What we like and don't like exist in systems, not individual features that can be easily assessed at face value. It's the interplay between features that matters, and more often it isn't even these "qualities" but the simple balance of "quantities" which both players and designers overlook. Most don't notice that "Oh hey, when I turn this 90 into a 70, the battle is more fun." They just notice the superficial mechanics of the game without respect to their interaction or numerical balance.

Just a few reasons why it isn't necessarily valuable or desirable to work from existing games as a template. The number of successful MMOs is incredibly small. To think that any game has crafted something even close to optimal is plainly absurd.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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