Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Unlockypoo?Follow

#1 Dec 31 2012 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Will there be unlockable jobs for XIV, as there were in XI?

I enjoyed the quests that were meaningful in XI (i.e. unlock this job, go get this airship, do this to learn your subjob etc etc.) Likewise I despise the "go voyage around and kill these monkeys, when you return you shall be rewarded with a portion of my life savings!" Or even worse, "When you return I shall magically gift you with experience points!!!" WTF??? Where'd you get those experience points to give me buddy?

Ok there's my topic, with small interplanted rant.
#2 Dec 31 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
**
676 posts
Yes they will have jobs that you'll need to unlock. They've already added jobs like dragoon, white mage, black mage, paladin, monk, warrior, and bard. They each have their own quest lines. As of 1.0, they unlocked additional abilities and eventually the AF. I'm not sure what it's going to be like in 2.0. They will have quest lines at least. Also, all quests involved with the game will reward you with some reward (ability, item, equipment, etc plus some experience). If those are the types of quests you don't like, you probably wont like ARR since that's going to be the main way they plan on us leveling up our classes/jobs with.
____________________________
#3 Dec 31 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,112 posts
Rose tinted.

Quote:
unlock this job, go get this airship, do this to learn your subjob

sounds exactly like
Quote:
go voyage around and kill these monkeys

to me.

Experience points are a measure of your characters growth. The NPC isnt "giving" you the experience points, your character is earning them as a way of representing his or her growth.

That aside, I did enjoy the unlocking of Advance Jobs in XI and hope to see them within XIV!
____________________________
To endanger the soul endangers all,
when the soul is endangered it must become a Warrior.
#4 Dec 31 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
660 posts
OP, did you forget you had to kill certain mobs that were too high for your level for even a chance that they'd drop the SJ items? The Advanced Jobs were a wonder to unlock...if you had help at low levels. The airship sure was a breeze to gain access to at low levels for a mere 500k.

You see where I'm going with this?
____________________________
Nasozan, Midgardsormr Server. R.I.P.
75 BRD, SAM, WHM; 74 THF, BLM; 69 PLD, BST.
Darth Howie wrote:
Woe unto he who tries to be helpful, for upon him shall be lain the burdens of all.
- Squall 15:11
#5 Dec 31 2012 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,957 posts
Kordain wrote:
Rose tinted.

Quote:
unlock this job, go get this airship, do this to learn your subjob

sounds exactly like
Quote:
go voyage around and kill these monkeys

to me.

Experience points are a measure of your characters growth. The NPC isnt "giving" you the experience points, your character is earning them as a way of representing his or her growth.

That aside, I did enjoy the unlocking of Advance Jobs in XI and hope to see them within XIV!



actually I see what hes saying.. Ive played plenty of MMOs that werent FFXI that consist of "go kill 20 birds" sure I get exp from each bird I kill but then when i go back and talk to the npc to complete the quest we magically gives me exp too.. so hes not just giving me the exp i woulda earned from killing the birds because i GOT those from KILLING them already lol.
#6 Dec 31 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
***
1,112 posts
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
magically


Magic!? In my online role-playing game? Who the **** do they think they are!
____________________________
To endanger the soul endangers all,
when the soul is endangered it must become a Warrior.
#7 Dec 31 2012 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,703 posts
Atkascha wrote:
OP, did you forget you had to kill certain mobs that were too high for your level for even a chance that they'd drop the SJ items? The Advanced Jobs were a wonder to unlock...if you had help at low levels. The airship sure was a breeze to gain access to at low levels for a mere 500k.

You see where I'm going with this?


I don't think you played the same FFXI I played or you're one of the ones who could only do something with a high level doing it for you..err I mean "helping" you. The only one that required help was NIN. The rest made it EASIER to do with high level help.

As for OP, no. SE is catering to the generation of MMORPG players who grew up with WoW and had WoW as their only MMO, so actually having to do something for a basic class/job in terms of unlocking or quests for armor will not fly. You still only need to buy a weapon to unlock it.

#8 Dec 31 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
Theonehio wrote:


As for OP, no. SE is catering to the generation of MMORPG players who grew up with WoW and had WoW as their only MMO, so actually having to do something for a basic class/job in terms of unlocking or quests for armor will not fly. You still only need to buy a weapon to unlock it.



WoW's challenges came in other forms than just running to 4 different zones to collect random items\watch a wall of text, wait til JP midnight, and then trade a pebble to a bcnm point to faceroll a minor antagonist at level 30 so you could spend another 3+ hours a day with your flag up in the dunes.

I liked XI too, but it wasn't all that great looking back on what I spent the majority of my gaming time on. I would have much preferred actually playing the game to sitting around waiting for something to happen.
#9 Dec 31 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
660 posts
I'm one of the people who started playing when everyone had everything unlocked. I was lucky enough to get help for a lot of things in XI. People around my level were working on their 5th+ job. So yes, I could only get things done with other people helping me. I know I'm not in any kind of minority. That's how the game worked for me until I was at a high enough level to help other people. And the cycle continued.

Edited, Dec 31st 2012 11:52am by Atkascha
____________________________
Nasozan, Midgardsormr Server. R.I.P.
75 BRD, SAM, WHM; 74 THF, BLM; 69 PLD, BST.
Darth Howie wrote:
Woe unto he who tries to be helpful, for upon him shall be lain the burdens of all.
- Squall 15:11
#10 Dec 31 2012 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Independent design flaws in those quests aside, I agree with the OPs sentiment that quests are more meaningful when they reward you with something more than a number of xp or gil. Some of those quests in XI weren't well designed, but that aspect of them isn't at fault.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Jan 05 2013 at 12:00 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
.



Edited, Jan 5th 2013 1:02am by je355804
#12 Jan 05 2013 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Theonehio wrote:
Atkascha wrote:
OP, did you forget you had to kill certain mobs that were too high for your level for even a chance that they'd drop the SJ items? The Advanced Jobs were a wonder to unlock...if you had help at low levels. The airship sure was a breeze to gain access to at low levels for a mere 500k.

You see where I'm going with this?


I don't think you played the same FFXI I played or you're one of the ones who could only do something with a high level doing it for you..err I mean "helping" you. The only one that required help was NIN. The rest made it EASIER to do with high level help.

As for OP, no. SE is catering to the generation of MMORPG players who grew up with WoW and had WoW as their only MMO, so actually having to do something for a basic class/job in terms of unlocking or quests for armor will not fly. You still only need to buy a weapon to unlock it.



I think that's partially the point, and... partially the problem.

It should be required to have people "helping" you to achieve things. While having people "do" things for you is less desirable.

That was one of the great things about XI, everything you did required teamwork to varying extents... As you said, when people were doing things for you it was much less enjoyable. However, when you had to gather a team to achieve a goal, thats what created the strong community in the game.

#13 Jan 05 2013 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Hmm Weird... my rose colored detector is going off.....
____________________________
MUTED
#14 Jan 06 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
14 posts
i think ARR should go back to the way FFXI was when it was most popular, flag for party, exp grind as a group for 3-4 hrs in a row only to achive 250ish exp per kill, if ur pt was good enough to chain the mobs. ahhh the good ol' days..

Took me a good 3-4 months or exp party's to get to 75. but you know what, the ppl that were 75 back then, actually had skill in the class that they level'd because it took skill and knowledge of the class you were playing to get ur party to work correctly. let alone do a HNM or anything of difficulty
#15 Jan 06 2013 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
^^ Lmao! Yeah that game would bomb in a month.
____________________________
MUTED
#16 Jan 06 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Ostia wrote:
^^ Lmao! Yeah that game would bomb in a month.


Yeah, getting xp from an outpost for killing a few sprouts in a random orange circle for hours on end is wayyyy more awesome.
#17 Jan 07 2013 at 12:51 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,437 posts
It actually doesn't matter if it's way more awesome or not. Farming exp for hours on end isn't how MMOs work anymore. The genre as a whole has moved and evolved. At this point, players expect to be able to solo their leveling experience (maybe minus a few group quests).

I played FFXI for 4 years myself, it wasn't the first MMO I'd ever played, but it was the first one I loved. And then I stopped. I didn't stop because WoW was MOAR AWSUM, I stopped because I no longer had the time to devote to flagging myself LFG for six hours, in order to get a party that lasts for 2 hours minimum. I just don't have that kind of time in large chunks like that anymore, and I'd imagine that happened to more than one former player of FFXI. It just isn't how MMOs are done anymore, and SE has already gotten in trouble once for ignoring how MMOs work now.

As for unlocking jobs, I really enjoyed that aspect of FFXI.. it let me feel like having that job available to me was an accomplishment (I never had a job quest soloed for me) and I'd love to see something similar, albeit soloable by me.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#18 Jan 07 2013 at 4:57 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I think the whole "how MMOs work now" argument is a fallacy. MMOs are still a very young genre; the way they work now isn't how they will always work or even work in the foreseeable future. Game design is like a car-- you can't just say that all cars work like this now and treat the parts as interchangeable. There are lots of ways to make a good car.

A party-based game can work fine if it gives you the tools to party successfully. If grouping is easy and rewarding, it's entirely possible to make it a fun experience. Games just haven't really tried to design the communication and grouping tools, interfaces, and mechanics to make it something other than a hassle.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Jan 07 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
It actually doesn't matter if it's way more awesome or not. Farming exp for hours on end isn't how MMOs work anymore. The genre as a whole has moved and evolved. At this point, players expect to be able to solo their leveling experience (maybe minus a few group quests).

I played FFXI for 4 years myself, it wasn't the first MMO I'd ever played, but it was the first one I loved. And then I stopped. I didn't stop because WoW was MOAR AWSUM, I stopped because I no longer had the time to devote to flagging myself LFG for six hours, in order to get a party that lasts for 2 hours minimum. I just don't have that kind of time in large chunks like that anymore, and I'd imagine that happened to more than one former player of FFXI. It just isn't how MMOs are done anymore, and SE has already gotten in trouble once for ignoring how MMOs work now.

As for unlocking jobs, I really enjoyed that aspect of FFXI.. it let me feel like having that job available to me was an accomplishment (I never had a job quest soloed for me) and I'd love to see something similar, albeit soloable by me.


I understand your feelings and opinions... however, I'll hold true, no matter how many times I get flamed etc etc. I cannot understand the point of having an MMO which is a solo experience. It is absolutely mind baffling to me that this is what people want. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of single player games... there are precious few, what maybe 5, MMOs that have populations that make them worth playing. Why would we want these to be solo experiences?

Kachi wrote:
I think the whole "how MMOs work now" argument is a fallacy. MMOs are still a very young genre; the way they work now isn't how they will always work or even work in the foreseeable future. Game design is like a car-- you can't just say that all cars work like this now and treat the parts as interchangeable. There are lots of ways to make a good car.

A party-based game can work fine if it gives you the tools to party successfully. If grouping is easy and rewarding, it's entirely possible to make it a fun experience. Games just haven't really tried to design the communication and grouping tools, interfaces, and mechanics to make it something other than a hassle.


Exactly. It couldn't be stated more clearly and intelligently than this.

I am actually beginning to wonder if a good percentage of people would actually prefer if there were no incentive to party at all, and soloing through the game were the most efficient method of achieving rank.


Edited, Jan 7th 2013 11:15am by je355804
#20 Jan 07 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
I think they were on the right track with Leve Sharing during 1.0 - the problem was that the shared reward wasn't that much better than not doing anything at all, unless you also had the same leve active and you could do true Leve Linking and do both Leves at the same time.

Instead, the shared Leves should have granted a much higher exp rate to the person helping. Maybe not 100% of what the leve owner was getting, but maybe 75% instead of the 10% bonus it gave. Really, there wasn't much point in "helping" since that was time you could have spent doing your own leves for a greater reward.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#21 Jan 07 2013 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
***
3,437 posts
Being able to solo your leveling experience isn't the same thing as never having to group for anything. That isn't what I said at all.

What I said was that many people don't have the time for multiple hours of LFG followed by multiple hours of mob grinding in order to level up.

@Kachi: You're right, the genre is constantly changing. But it doesn't do so in leaps and bounds, it does so in steps. It takes a couple of steps away from the status quo, and if whatever that change was works, that becomes the new status quo. And then the next change takes the next step, and so on. SE already gave the "ignoring how things work now" thing a shot, and it backfired hardcore on them. They can certainly try to evolve the field, but they can't ignore it anymore.

@Je: It's not about the entire game being a solo experience, it's about giving people the freedom to level at their own pace on their own time. The leveling game is not the entire game (if it is, that's a different problem).

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 10:25am by Callinon
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#22 Jan 07 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Some of us that want to solo may not have time to play but still want to play with friends when we're still on. Linkshells/Guilds make MMO's more fun than anything else IMO. I am completely fine with it taking a LOT longer for me to hit cap if I want to solo it, but I want to be able to solo it unlike say FFXI where it's really just unfeasable.

Make party/group play the dominant method, but allow us to opt out of that mechanic if we so choose.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#23 Jan 07 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:


@Kachi: You're right, the genre is constantly changing. But it doesn't do so in leaps and bounds, it does so in steps. It takes a couple of steps away from the status quo, and if whatever that change was works, that becomes the new status quo. And then the next change takes the next step, and so on. SE already gave the "ignoring how things work now" thing a shot, and it backfired hardcore on them. They can certainly try to evolve the field, but they can't ignore it anymore.


Edited, Jan 7th 2013 10:25am by Callinon


Yes its more about evolution than revolution, which isn't to say that it HAS to be that way. But the nature of MMORPGs is high risk, so we're more likely to see baby steps than major overhauls. At least from the big companies.

In that sense SE may actually be coming at the issue from a rational place this time around. Sure the foundation of the game is fairly run-of-the-mill, and the baby steps may be small ones; but as long as they are good ones, then that's fine with me. I'm referring to things like personal chocobos (which i believe will be much more than the mounts we see in other games; i'm actually thinking they may be akin to say, personal npcs in SWTOR), player housing, and even the crafting system(which is already superior to the standard systems out there).

I was going to include the FATE system in that list, but its only "evolutionary" within the context of XIV. It sounds very "Rift", which ofc is no bad thing.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#24 Jan 07 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Wint wrote:
Some of us that want to solo may not have time to play but still want to play with friends when we're still on. Linkshells/Guilds make MMO's more fun than anything else IMO. I am completely fine with it taking a LOT longer for me to hit cap if I want to solo it, but I want to be able to solo it unlike say FFXI where it's really just unfeasable.

Make party/group play the dominant method, but allow us to opt out of that mechanic if we so choose.



Wint I completely agree with everything you say. In fact I in NO WAY mean to say I think solo play should be eliminated as a method of play... That in fact made XI a major turn off in a lot of ways. Soloing was **** near impossible at any sort of decent rate, even with BST.

I simply mean to say, in my opinion, I believe party play should be the dominant force driving the game. At the same time, people who want to solo should be able to do so as well. In fact soloing while flag up waiting for a party would generally be the optimal method in my estimation.
#25 Jan 07 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
I find more disturbing the notion, that one group want's to force another group to play a "Game" a certain way, this has always been the argument when we look back at XI. SE, Blizzard, Bioware, Whoever made rift, are not taking the option of "Party Group" and forcing you to solo, the option is there, if you enjoy sitting in one place for 4 hours, killing the same 3 camps of monsters, guess What ? You can do that in every single one of those games, the argument is "Why would we group if soloing is more efficient?" Well why should 90% of the people that pay for your game to be a success and continuing its life cycle be force to play the certain way of a minor 10% ? Makes no sense at all from a buisness stand point.

It is always the same argument when "LFG Across severs" is brought up, "Omg now partying with people on your own realm is destroyed" no is not, you can still party with your LS members or your friends or people of your server, the option is there for people that do not want to do that, please do name me one feature in any modern MMO that specifically does not allow you to do what you could do in an old school MMO ? Please i want to know of this feature in WOW/Rift/GW2 where you are not allow to camp for exp, or form party's inside your own server..... Please Enlighten Me!!!

Since you can't, i will tell you what happened... Your way of playing is obsolete, is a relic, is outdated, is no longer the norm, because when MMO'S where infants, that's all there was, now the genre has options, more variety of how to reach cap level, and people still stuck in EQ mode, cannot for the life of them understand, how anybody cannot spend 6 hours sitting on the same place killing the same 3 mobs over and over and over and not have fun or feel proud of their "SKILLS."

Move on! EQ is 13 years OLD!
____________________________
MUTED
#26 Jan 07 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#27 Jan 07 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
*
52 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
It actually doesn't matter if it's way more awesome or not. Farming exp for hours on end isn't how MMOs work anymore. The genre as a whole has moved and evolved. At this point, players expect to be able to solo their leveling experience (maybe minus a few group quests).

I played FFXI for 4 years myself, it wasn't the first MMO I'd ever played, but it was the first one I loved. And then I stopped. I didn't stop because WoW was MOAR AWSUM, I stopped because I no longer had the time to devote to flagging myself LFG for six hours, in order to get a party that lasts for 2 hours minimum. I just don't have that kind of time in large chunks like that anymore, and I'd imagine that happened to more than one former player of FFXI. It just isn't how MMOs are done anymore, and SE has already gotten in trouble once for ignoring how MMOs work now.

As for unlocking jobs, I really enjoyed that aspect of FFXI.. it let me feel like having that job available to me was an accomplishment (I never had a job quest soloed for me) and I'd love to see something similar, albeit soloable by me.


There was something rewarding about waiting in LFG for hours and pulling off a successful group. I'm not saying keep it the way XI was, but somehow i think they should try to balance out "solo" and "LFG" options. Soloing should be viable, but make the LFG for exp portion more rewarding when done correctly. The WoW community felt so fragmented and disconnected because everything can pretty much be done solo. And XI felt too dependent on the community to get anything done in a reasonable time frame. It wasnt just the community about WoW that felt disconnected, but also the open world itself. I want to be able to revisit areas for things other than questing. In other words, let the open world be immersive.

For everything else non-exp, make it challenging the same way XI was, but make it so that there is more incentive for a stranger to help out. it was frustrating to have to pay strangers to help out in XI when a LS member or RL friend couldnt. maybe having a "community rating" would help out in this regard.
#28 Jan 07 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
balishag wrote:

There was something rewarding about waiting in LFG for hours and pulling off a successful group.


No, there was nothing rewarding about waiting for 3 hours for a tank or a bard to pop because you couldn't play otherwise. If you had said something like, "It was rewarding to put together an unconventional party and pull it off without waiting for hours on end for a RDM or a BRD" then I would have agreed with and applauded you, but that statement?

Good gravy, I'm glad you aren't developing XIV. That's exactly the attitude that kept XI at the bottom when almost everything else about it was vastly superior to WoW.
#29 Jan 07 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
***
3,437 posts
Quote:
Soloing should be viable, but make the LFG for exp portion more rewarding when done correctly


If they can pull that off, I'm down for it.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#30 Jan 07 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Default
*
52 posts
Wint wrote:
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.


To obtain the broadest range of MMO players possible, yes i will agree that a balance has to be made here. The question is, how much independence and freedom do we give the "solo" players? WoW was highly successful because of the way they were able to become what every other MMO wasnt at the time, which was solo friendly. But at the same token, it became the very thing that made me quit in less than 2 years of playing, it simply lacked a cohesive social aspect that i longed for after leaving XI. Solo aspect will be the entry point that will bring gamers in, social aspect will sustain it.
#31 Jan 07 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
balishag wrote:

WoW was highly successful because of the way they were able to become what every other MMO wasnt at the time, which was solo friendly. But at the same token, it became the very thing that made me quit in less than 2 years of playing, it simply lacked a cohesive social aspect that i longed for after leaving XI. Solo aspect will be the entry point that will bring gamers in, social aspect will sustain it.


Well, I'd have to point out that the experience is what you make of it. Once you get to level cap, I mean, the soloing ends there pretty much. Sure you can go back and maybe solo some older dungeons and (very) old raids, but to finish out the story or get the best equipment you have to participate in the group content. Don't say you left WoW because there was no social aspect - you just didn't want to be a part of that social aspect for whatever reason. The game doesn't exist solely on solo content and to suggest otherwise is really doing it a disservice.

Quote:
Soloing should be viable, but make the LFG for exp portion more rewarding when done correctly


First define "correctly". If we are talking brd x2 rdm war war sam ala old school meriting parties as being the "correct" way... No thanks. That kind of partying died a well-deserved death and there is really no need to resurrect it. Job elitism has to go away.

There's a video on this page that shows a dungeon crawl - that's ideally the way they should do it. Reward low man parties with experience and equipment not obtainable anywhere else which will encourage people to play through them, but at the same time don't ruin the solo experience for those folks who don't have the time to always form a party.

There's a lot of things that are being debated in these forums as if this is the first mmo ever. Really, some of you guys should check out a few other games and see what the group experiences are like out there. You might be surprised.
#32 Jan 07 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,437 posts
I'll be honest, I've played a dozen MMOs since FFXI and I've never been able to find a community I liked more than that one. But the fact is, that isn't a function of the game, it's a function of the people.

I like the social aspect of MMOs, and I like the idea of grouping up to do content. What I don't like is grouping up for basic progression being required (as it was in FFXI). ****, in FFXI you could barely cross the road and buy a hot dog without a party of 6. As Wint pointed out too, even killing something several levels below you (Easy Prey) was basically impossible for most jobs for a very long time. That's ridiculous, and as much as I loved FFXI, that style of gameplay just isn't going to fly anymore.

Grouping for dungeon crawls? Absolutely.. that's good stuff. Grouping to get from level 15 to level 16? Not so much.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#33 Jan 07 2013 at 2:22 PM Rating: Default
*
52 posts
Torrence wrote:
balishag wrote:

There was something rewarding about waiting in LFG for hours and pulling off a successful group.


No, there was nothing rewarding about waiting for 3 hours for a tank or a bard to pop because you couldn't play otherwise. If you had said something like, "It was rewarding to put together an unconventional party and pull it off without waiting for hours on end for a RDM or a BRD" then I would have agreed with and applauded you, but that statement?

Good gravy, I'm glad you aren't developing XIV. That's exactly the attitude that kept XI at the bottom when almost everything else about it was vastly superior to WoW.


3 hours is a bit of an exageration, but sure there was something rewarding about finding success in LFG groups. The fact that it was far more rare was one thing, the bond with the party members afterwards is also a byproduct. After a group in WoW, whether successful or not were very easily forgettable.

Luckily, none of us here are developing XIV. In fact, I'd rather let SE lay a suprise on us than copy/paste any other format of MMO to come before it. Thats what they've done with FF's in the past including XI and thats what im hoping for now.
#34 Jan 07 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
balishag wrote:

3 hours is a bit of an exageration, but sure there was something rewarding about finding success in LFG groups. The fact that it was far more rare was one thing, the bond with the party members afterwards is also a byproduct. After a group in WoW, whether successful or not were very easily forgettable.

Luckily, none of us here are developing XIV. In fact, I'd rather let SE lay a suprise on us than copy/paste any other format of MMO to come before it. Thats what they've done with FF's in the past including XI and thats what im hoping for now.


Did you play XI? I thought I was being rather generous with that 3 hours comment.

Also, success in the only leveling option being rare isn't exactly a selling point. I understood lofty goals like Apocs being out of reach of your casual player, but leveling? Leveling content shouldn't be the rare stuff. That just makes people walk away, and it DID make people walk away from XI.
#35 Jan 07 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
@Kachi: You're right, the genre is constantly changing. But it doesn't do so in leaps and bounds, it does so in steps. It takes a couple of steps away from the status quo, and if whatever that change was works, that becomes the new status quo. And then the next change takes the next step, and so on. SE already gave the "ignoring how things work now" thing a shot, and it backfired hardcore on them. They can certainly try to evolve the field, but they can't ignore it anymore.


The "evolution" approach is EXACTLY WHY these new games are almost sure to fail. Evolution is a slow process, which means that the products that come out look more or less the same. If they're more or less the same, then they're automatically boring, now matter how much objectively better they are than the predecessor! And if they're already kind of boring, most people will stick to the game that they've already invested years in!

Game design requires the design of a system, and in systems, you can't always get away with making small changes after small changes. That's like a car manufacturer trying to build a brand new car from an old car. Sometimes it's easier to start from scratch. And yeah, if you don't know what the **** you're doing, starting from scratch is likely to be a disaster. But that's why most large gaming studios use an iterative process and have quality assurance testers on staff.

But there's certainly a problem of investors and greenlighters (and as a result, lead designers) not knowing good concepts from bad. The comments about companies being unwilling to take risks are on point, but they only highlight the catch 22 of MMO design in today's climate. Maybe open source or crowd-sourced MMO design will proliferate further in the near future and we'll see a much more viable willingness to take those risks.

And it's also true that changes that are too rapid can be offputting to players who expect a familiar experience, but that discomfort is very often what adds to the excitement. This is a problem of player imagination and feedback... developers run away from the confusion rather than ensure that the game prepares the player to overcome it successfully. As a result, they scrap a good start on something original and create more of the same.

FFXIV failed because among other things, they started with a bad design. Revolution is neither inherently good or bad, but to succeed in the MMO industry, it is nearly essential.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Jan 07 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
*
52 posts
Torrence wrote:
balishag wrote:

WoW was highly successful because of the way they were able to become what every other MMO wasnt at the time, which was solo friendly. But at the same token, it became the very thing that made me quit in less than 2 years of playing, it simply lacked a cohesive social aspect that i longed for after leaving XI. Solo aspect will be the entry point that will bring gamers in, social aspect will sustain it.


Well, I'd have to point out that the experience is what you make of it. Once you get to level cap, I mean, the soloing ends there pretty much. Sure you can go back and maybe solo some older dungeons and (very) old raids, but to finish out the story or get the best equipment you have to participate in the group content. Don't say you left WoW because there was no social aspect - you just didn't want to be a part of that social aspect for whatever reason. The game doesn't exist solely on solo content and to suggest otherwise is really doing it a disservice.


Im not saying that there wasnt a social aspect, but it definetely was not as cohesive as XI. for the most part, WoW faciliated @#$% talking more than any other level of social aspect that it could have provided. Part of maxing out your level is the journey, and along the way in XI i was able to make great in game friends out of it (from lvl 15-75). XI facilitated teamwork, reputation, and friendliness above all. On the other hand, there was a high level of immaturity in WoW players that i dont want to see in XIV. In other words i dont want a south park episode being made of XIV (albeit that episode was the funniest thing ever)

Quote:
Soloing should be viable, but make the LFG for exp portion more rewarding when done correctly


Torrence wrote:

First define "correctly". If we are talking brd x2 rdm war war sam ala old school meriting parties as being the "correct" way... No thanks. That kind of partying died a well-deserved death and there is really no need to resurrect it. Job elitism has to go away.

There's a video on this page that shows a dungeon crawl - that's ideally the way they should do it. Reward low man parties with experience and equipment not obtainable anywhere else which will encourage people to play through them, but at the same time don't ruin the solo experience for those folks who don't have the time to always form a party.

There's a lot of things that are being debated in these forums as if this is the first mmo ever. Really, some of you guys should check out a few other games and see what the group experiences are like out there. You might be surprised.


By correctly, i mean create a group dynamic that facilitates the "classic" style of MMO. Whether they do that with exp chains via camp/pulling is yet to be seen. I'm not saying how this should or could be done, but i am hoping for a group dynamic for exp, outside of instances and raids. In the end, i want this "LFG" approach to be more challenging and rare to come across, but more rewarding for those who still enjoy the "classic" style of MMO. I dont want run and gun dungeon crawls to be the only approach to exp and gear in this game. Job elitism will never go away, not even diablo could eliminate this.

Everything else, i agree with.



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:14pm by balishag
#37 Jan 07 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Ostia wrote:
I find more disturbing the notion, that one group want's to force another group to play a "Game" a certain way, this has always been the argument when we look back at XI. SE, Blizzard, Bioware, Whoever made rift, are not taking the option of "Party Group" and forcing you to solo, the option is there, if you enjoy sitting in one place for 4 hours, killing the same 3 camps of monsters, guess What ? You can do that in every single one of those games, the argument is "Why would we group if soloing is more efficient?" Well why should 90% of the people that pay for your game to be a success and continuing its life cycle be force to play the certain way of a minor 10% ? Makes no sense at all from a buisness stand point.

It is always the same argument when "LFG Across severs" is brought up, "Omg now partying with people on your own realm is destroyed" no is not, you can still party with your LS members or your friends or people of your server, the option is there for people that do not want to do that, please do name me one feature in any modern MMO that specifically does not allow you to do what you could do in an old school MMO ? Please i want to know of this feature in WOW/Rift/GW2 where you are not allow to camp for exp, or form party's inside your own server..... Please Enlighten Me!!!

Since you can't, i will tell you what happened... Your way of playing is obsolete, is a relic, is outdated, is no longer the norm, because when MMO'S where infants, that's all there was, now the genre has options, more variety of how to reach cap level, and people still stuck in EQ mode, cannot for the life of them understand, how anybody cannot spend 6 hours sitting on the same place killing the same 3 mobs over and over and over and not have fun or feel proud of their "SKILLS."

Move on! EQ is 13 years OLD!



You can also walk down the street backwards in traffic if you want, the option is there.

Your condescension is a bit tiring, for the most part everyone is having a civil conversation... No one, and I mean NO ONE, has said anything about eliminating the ability to solo play. The ability to solo play is awesome.

The argument most are making is that group play should not be eliminated. In fact it should be rewarded. It is by definition more difficult to get a party of six individuals (or whatever the magic number is) and fight enemies. These individuals should be rewarded for their efforts.

At the same time, solo play should be a complete option. As I've stated before, imagine how fun it would be if you could solo with complete freedom, while looking for a group. Or just solo, without looking for a group.

More options are ALWAYS better than less. The caveat here is, if you make soloing just as efficient as group play, you've de facto eliminated group play. Individuals must be rewarded for their effort... Simple economics.

Edit: Before this escalates, let me clarify exactly what I mean in an example. Here is how my "ideal game" by breaks down.

On this particular fine day you have plenty of time to play. You go out into the field, and you go soloing, however you also decide to throw up your lfg.

You get 10,000 xp per hour average, and you wait for an invite for an hour.

You were soloing fantastically, and now you get an invite.

You join a full party, because soloing is fun, but playing with others is "more fun" theoretically (and to each their own.)

In this made up game, 10k xp/hour can be expected soloing or questing, or what have you. However, 15k/hr can be achieved partying (or whatever number, 15k is just a rough estimation.)

Thus incentivizing the team work in the game, however not making the party SOOOO strong that is obsoletes the solo man.

This way... on days when you don't have time to play, sure head out and solo. Or heck, maybe you just want to solo period and wish to bypass the group all together.

BUTTT those of us who like working in groups, and enjoy the human interaction can still do so, and be rewarded for our efforts.

I see this as a win / win. I just don't see why some only want to have one type of gameplay. Why not have multiple types of gameplay???

Thoughts?



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:08pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:09pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:10pm by je355804
#38 Jan 07 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
I think XIV already has a big step on WoW because of one thing. The fact you can max out all jobs on the same character is going to forge an attachment with your virtual representation. The thing I always disliked about WoW is if I wanted to play a different job I had to log in as a different character. Not so here.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#39 Jan 07 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Wint wrote:
I think XIV already has a big step on WoW because of one thing. The fact you can max out all jobs on the same character is going to forge an attachment with your virtual representation. The thing I always disliked about WoW is if I wanted to play a different job I had to log in as a different character. Not so here.


WoW is one job per character? (Only maxed the trial character.) I just didn't like the cartoony feel, and the fact that people called them "toons."

I get all "Sheldon" level on condescension when I hear people call the character in XIV toons lol.
#40 Jan 07 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
je355804 wrote:
Wint wrote:
I think XIV already has a big step on WoW because of one thing. The fact you can max out all jobs on the same character is going to forge an attachment with your virtual representation. The thing I always disliked about WoW is if I wanted to play a different job I had to log in as a different character. Not so here.


WoW is one job per character? (Only maxed the trial character.) I just didn't like the cartoony feel, and the fact that people called them "toons."

I get all "Sheldon" level on condescension when I hear people call the character in XIV toons lol.


Yep.

I agree, some of the terminology grates on my nerves when I hear it applied here but I bite my tongue. Mounts, toons, etc Smiley: laugh
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#41 Jan 07 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Wint wrote:
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.


It is possible, WOW has done it, there are things that take months and months to obtain in WOW, and things that only top tier players can obtain, such as titles, pets, and mounts, as for shiny objects, WOW moved to a more "Every body has access to obtain a legendary" if they put in the effort, now a top player might obtain one in a month, but joe from scrub guild might obtain it 6 months down the path, when its either obsolete or about to be faded out for a newer better weapon.

I am all for both camps being involved, i just dislike when one camp, wants to dominate or tell the other how to play the game they pay for, specially when one, is the one that really pays the bills down the road.
____________________________
MUTED
#42 Jan 07 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.


It is possible, WOW has done it, there are things that take months and months to obtain in WOW, and things that only top tier players can obtain, such as titles, pets, and mounts, as for shiny objects, WOW moved to a more "Every body has access to obtain a legendary" if they put in the effort, now a top player might obtain one in a month, but joe from scrub guild might obtain it 6 months down the path, when its either obsolete or about to be faded out for a newer better weapon.

I am all for both camps being involved, i just dislike when one camp, wants to dominate or tell the other how to play the game they pay for, specially when one, is the one that really pays the bills down the road.


I agree, I don't see why there has to be one and not the other. They're not mutually exclusive by any means.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#43 Jan 07 2013 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.


It is possible, WOW has done it, there are things that take months and months to obtain in WOW, and things that only top tier players can obtain, such as titles, pets, and mounts, as for shiny objects, WOW moved to a more "Every body has access to obtain a legendary" if they put in the effort, now a top player might obtain one in a month, but joe from scrub guild might obtain it 6 months down the path, when its either obsolete or about to be faded out for a newer better weapon.

I am all for both camps being involved, i just dislike when one camp, wants to dominate or tell the other how to play the game they pay for, specially when one, is the one that really pays the bills down the road.



I've been saying that all along, whilst you've been telling me that parties are for dinosaurs and as such are extinct.

Perhaps we've been making the same argument and simply have had a case of poor understanding.

I want solo players to have at it, I also want groups to be something that is worth doing. The bottom line is, when you have something for everyone, the population is larger, and therefore the community (theoretically yet again) will be stronger.
#44 Jan 07 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
*
52 posts
je355804 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I find more disturbing the notion, that one group want's to force another group to play a "Game" a certain way, this has always been the argument when we look back at XI. SE, Blizzard, Bioware, Whoever made rift, are not taking the option of "Party Group" and forcing you to solo, the option is there, if you enjoy sitting in one place for 4 hours, killing the same 3 camps of monsters, guess What ? You can do that in every single one of those games, the argument is "Why would we group if soloing is more efficient?" Well why should 90% of the people that pay for your game to be a success and continuing its life cycle be force to play the certain way of a minor 10% ? Makes no sense at all from a buisness stand point.

It is always the same argument when "LFG Across severs" is brought up, "Omg now partying with people on your own realm is destroyed" no is not, you can still party with your LS members or your friends or people of your server, the option is there for people that do not want to do that, please do name me one feature in any modern MMO that specifically does not allow you to do what you could do in an old school MMO ? Please i want to know of this feature in WOW/Rift/GW2 where you are not allow to camp for exp, or form party's inside your own server..... Please Enlighten Me!!!

Since you can't, i will tell you what happened... Your way of playing is obsolete, is a relic, is outdated, is no longer the norm, because when MMO'S where infants, that's all there was, now the genre has options, more variety of how to reach cap level, and people still stuck in EQ mode, cannot for the life of them understand, how anybody cannot spend 6 hours sitting on the same place killing the same 3 mobs over and over and over and not have fun or feel proud of their "SKILLS."

Move on! EQ is 13 years OLD!



You can also walk down the street backwards in traffic if you want, the option is there.

Your condescension is a bit tiring, for the most part everyone is having a civil conversation... No one, and I mean NO ONE, has said anything about eliminating the ability to solo play. The ability to solo play is awesome.

The argument most are making is that group play should not be eliminated. In fact it should be rewarded. It is by definition more difficult to get a party of six individuals (or whatever the magic number is) and fight enemies. These individuals should be rewarded for their efforts.

At the same time, solo play should be a complete option. As I've stated before, imagine how fun it would be if you could solo with complete freedom, while looking for a group. Or just solo, without looking for a group.

More options are ALWAYS better than less. The caveat here is, if you make soloing just as efficient as group play, you've de facto eliminated group play. Individuals must be rewarded for their effort... Simple economics.

Edit: Before this escalates, let me clarify exactly what I mean in an example. Here is how my "ideal game" by breaks down.

On this particular fine day you have plenty of time to play. You go out into the field, and you go soloing, however you also decide to throw up your lfg.

You get 10,000 xp per hour average, and you wait for an invite for an hour.

You were soloing fantastically, and now you get an invite.

You join a full party, because soloing is fun, but playing with others is "more fun" theoretically (and to each their own.)

In this made up game, 10k xp/hour can be expected soloing or questing, or what have you. However, 15k/hr can be achieved partying (or whatever number, 15k is just a rough estimation.)

Thus incentivizing the team work in the game, however not making the party SOOOO strong that is obsoletes the solo man.

This way... on days when you don't have time to play, sure head out and solo. Or heck, maybe you just want to solo period and wish to bypass the group all together.

BUTTT those of us who like working in groups, and enjoy the human interaction can still do so, and be rewarded for our efforts.

I see this as a win / win. I just don't see why some only want to have one type of gameplay. Why not have multiple types of gameplay???

Thoughts?



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:08pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:09pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:10pm by je355804



I completely agree. but the only thing i would change is the scaling of group exp vs solo. And by mentioning solo gameplay, i'm going to include the 5 man instance runs that i'm seeing in these demo's as "solo" only if its anything like the queue system in WoW and if its going to favor the frenetic run and gun style. Also, these instances seem to favor speed runs over the more classic MMO approach of tougher mob + slower battles.

Group exp'ing should take place in the open world, with tougher mobs per fight of course. The only problem is, I dont know how they're going to go about this aspect if it is included. What made this fun in XI was the art of pulling, and the added dynamics of skill chains and the exp chains to follow. I would like some kind of skill combo system implemented, whether it is individual, team based, or both. That way battles no matter which way you group up, will be a boring spam/mash fest of skills.
#45 Jan 07 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
balishag wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I find more disturbing the notion, that one group want's to force another group to play a "Game" a certain way, this has always been the argument when we look back at XI. SE, Blizzard, Bioware, Whoever made rift, are not taking the option of "Party Group" and forcing you to solo, the option is there, if you enjoy sitting in one place for 4 hours, killing the same 3 camps of monsters, guess What ? You can do that in every single one of those games, the argument is "Why would we group if soloing is more efficient?" Well why should 90% of the people that pay for your game to be a success and continuing its life cycle be force to play the certain way of a minor 10% ? Makes no sense at all from a buisness stand point.

It is always the same argument when "LFG Across severs" is brought up, "Omg now partying with people on your own realm is destroyed" no is not, you can still party with your LS members or your friends or people of your server, the option is there for people that do not want to do that, please do name me one feature in any modern MMO that specifically does not allow you to do what you could do in an old school MMO ? Please i want to know of this feature in WOW/Rift/GW2 where you are not allow to camp for exp, or form party's inside your own server..... Please Enlighten Me!!!

Since you can't, i will tell you what happened... Your way of playing is obsolete, is a relic, is outdated, is no longer the norm, because when MMO'S where infants, that's all there was, now the genre has options, more variety of how to reach cap level, and people still stuck in EQ mode, cannot for the life of them understand, how anybody cannot spend 6 hours sitting on the same place killing the same 3 mobs over and over and over and not have fun or feel proud of their "SKILLS."

Move on! EQ is 13 years OLD!



You can also walk down the street backwards in traffic if you want, the option is there.

Your condescension is a bit tiring, for the most part everyone is having a civil conversation... No one, and I mean NO ONE, has said anything about eliminating the ability to solo play. The ability to solo play is awesome.

The argument most are making is that group play should not be eliminated. In fact it should be rewarded. It is by definition more difficult to get a party of six individuals (or whatever the magic number is) and fight enemies. These individuals should be rewarded for their efforts.

At the same time, solo play should be a complete option. As I've stated before, imagine how fun it would be if you could solo with complete freedom, while looking for a group. Or just solo, without looking for a group.

More options are ALWAYS better than less. The caveat here is, if you make soloing just as efficient as group play, you've de facto eliminated group play. Individuals must be rewarded for their effort... Simple economics.

Edit: Before this escalates, let me clarify exactly what I mean in an example. Here is how my "ideal game" by breaks down.

On this particular fine day you have plenty of time to play. You go out into the field, and you go soloing, however you also decide to throw up your lfg.

You get 10,000 xp per hour average, and you wait for an invite for an hour.

You were soloing fantastically, and now you get an invite.

You join a full party, because soloing is fun, but playing with others is "more fun" theoretically (and to each their own.)

In this made up game, 10k xp/hour can be expected soloing or questing, or what have you. However, 15k/hr can be achieved partying (or whatever number, 15k is just a rough estimation.)

Thus incentivizing the team work in the game, however not making the party SOOOO strong that is obsoletes the solo man.

This way... on days when you don't have time to play, sure head out and solo. Or heck, maybe you just want to solo period and wish to bypass the group all together.

BUTTT those of us who like working in groups, and enjoy the human interaction can still do so, and be rewarded for our efforts.

I see this as a win / win. I just don't see why some only want to have one type of gameplay. Why not have multiple types of gameplay???

Thoughts?



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:08pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:09pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:10pm by je355804



I completely agree. but the only thing i would change is the scaling of group exp vs solo. And by mentioning solo gameplay, i'm going to include the 5 man instance runs that i'm seeing in these demo's as "solo" only if its anything like the queue system in WoW and if its going to favor the frenetic run and gun style. Also, these instances seem to favor speed runs over the more classic MMO approach of tougher mob + slower battles.

Group exp'ing should take place in the open world, with tougher mobs per fight of course. The only problem is, I dont know how they're going to go about this aspect if it is included. What made this fun in XI was the art of pulling, and the added dynamics of skill chains and the exp chains to follow. I would like some kind of skill combo system implemented, whether it is individual, team based, or both. That way battles no matter which way you group up, will be a boring spam/mash fest of skills.



Yeah the solo/grouping scaling was just an off-the-cuff set of random numbers. I don't know what the correct answer would be.

From watching the videos we've seen so far, the bosses fall faster than VT battles did in full parties in XI.

I don't think that's acceptable.

The difficult battle, with a substantial reward will always be more entertaining than the easy battle with mediocre rewards.

I'd rather fight 3 battles in 10 minutes @ 333xp (=1000xp) vs 10 battles in 10 minutes @100 each (=1000xp)

When the battles are ridiculously easy, you simple drone away. When the battles are tough and interesting, then there is constant excitement.
#46 Jan 07 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
*
52 posts
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.


It is possible, WOW has done it, there are things that take months and months to obtain in WOW, and things that only top tier players can obtain, such as titles, pets, and mounts, as for shiny objects, WOW moved to a more "Every body has access to obtain a legendary" if they put in the effort, now a top player might obtain one in a month, but joe from scrub guild might obtain it 6 months down the path, when its either obsolete or about to be faded out for a newer better weapon.

I am all for both camps being involved, i just dislike when one camp, wants to dominate or tell the other how to play the game they pay for, specially when one, is the one that really pays the bills down the road.


I think its possible to incorporate both aspects, but the balance is something still in question. Is it going to favor more of the "solo" aspects that you see in WoW, or the classic style of MMO's in the past. In my opinion both are equally important, because one aspect will have an easier entry level to the game, and the other will sustain that player base for longer.

I'd prefer it if the top ranked gear was nearly unobtainable, kind of like how they did in XI where expensive gear was always going to be expensive. Also, just because some gear was level 75 didnt necessarily mean it was the best. I liked how lower level gear was still relevant depending on what you were trying to accomplish from it (example: leaping boots, emp hairpin, sniper rings). Of course, crafting items & gear also has to play into consideration when balancing out the equation here as well. Anything kind of gear that is too easy to obtain devaluates it to where it becomes expendible when no longer needed.

When gear becomes too accessible by nearly putting in the time, you get tier sets ad naseum like they did in WoW. Once i got a full tier 7 set on my War and druid, tier 7.5 would come out, then tier 8, etc etc... I pretty much threw away or disenchanted all of my low level gear or tier sets. One way to overcome this is to make it so that the top tier gear isnt as important as the way you play your job. most have commented that a player's skills should be the #1 gauge of player performance, if you want that to be the case then gear has to be de-emphasized to a larger extent.
#47 Jan 07 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
je355804 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I find more disturbing the notion, that one group want's to force another group to play a "Game" a certain way, this has always been the argument when we look back at XI. SE, Blizzard, Bioware, Whoever made rift, are not taking the option of "Party Group" and forcing you to solo, the option is there, if you enjoy sitting in one place for 4 hours, killing the same 3 camps of monsters, guess What ? You can do that in every single one of those games, the argument is "Why would we group if soloing is more efficient?" Well why should 90% of the people that pay for your game to be a success and continuing its life cycle be force to play the certain way of a minor 10% ? Makes no sense at all from a buisness stand point.

It is always the same argument when "LFG Across severs" is brought up, "Omg now partying with people on your own realm is destroyed" no is not, you can still party with your LS members or your friends or people of your server, the option is there for people that do not want to do that, please do name me one feature in any modern MMO that specifically does not allow you to do what you could do in an old school MMO ? Please i want to know of this feature in WOW/Rift/GW2 where you are not allow to camp for exp, or form party's inside your own server..... Please Enlighten Me!!!

Since you can't, i will tell you what happened... Your way of playing is obsolete, is a relic, is outdated, is no longer the norm, because when MMO'S where infants, that's all there was, now the genre has options, more variety of how to reach cap level, and people still stuck in EQ mode, cannot for the life of them understand, how anybody cannot spend 6 hours sitting on the same place killing the same 3 mobs over and over and over and not have fun or feel proud of their "SKILLS."

Move on! EQ is 13 years OLD!



You can also walk down the street backwards in traffic if you want, the option is there.

Your condescension is a bit tiring, for the most part everyone is having a civil conversation... No one, and I mean NO ONE, has said anything about eliminating the ability to solo play. The ability to solo play is awesome.

The argument most are making is that group play should not be eliminated. In fact it should be rewarded. It is by definition more difficult to get a party of six individuals (or whatever the magic number is) and fight enemies. These individuals should be rewarded for their efforts.

At the same time, solo play should be a complete option. As I've stated before, imagine how fun it would be if you could solo with complete freedom, while looking for a group. Or just solo, without looking for a group.

More options are ALWAYS better than less. The caveat here is, if you make soloing just as efficient as group play, you've de facto eliminated group play. Individuals must be rewarded for their effort... Simple economics.

Edit: Before this escalates, let me clarify exactly what I mean in an example. Here is how my "ideal game" by breaks down.

On this particular fine day you have plenty of time to play. You go out into the field, and you go soloing, however you also decide to throw up your lfg.

You get 10,000 xp per hour average, and you wait for an invite for an hour.

You were soloing fantastically, and now you get an invite.

You join a full party, because soloing is fun, but playing with others is "more fun" theoretically (and to each their own.)

In this made up game, 10k xp/hour can be expected soloing or questing, or what have you. However, 15k/hr can be achieved partying (or whatever number, 15k is just a rough estimation.)

Thus incentivizing the team work in the game, however not making the party SOOOO strong that is obsoletes the solo man.

This way... on days when you don't have time to play, sure head out and solo. Or heck, maybe you just want to solo period and wish to bypass the group all together.

BUTTT those of us who like working in groups, and enjoy the human interaction can still do so, and be rewarded for our efforts.

I see this as a win / win. I just don't see why some only want to have one type of gameplay. Why not have multiple types of gameplay???

Thoughts?



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:08pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:09pm by je355804

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:10pm by je355804


Well technically if you get a full group in wow/swotor/rift, and go and farm/camp, you actually get more experience than soloing, or questing for the same amount of time, i guess my problem with you specifically is when you bring in XI, you want XIV to be like XI, XI did not have multiple types of gameplay, it was Group or quit, or solo for a gazillion years, die and curse SE! So when you say "XIV's leveling should be more like XI" what i envision is sitting in dunes for 30 levels, killing crabs over and over and over and over, that type of gameplay is outdated, group play already has the best reward in the game, END GAME! All of it is dedicated to group oriented play, be it PVP, WvsW, or PVE! It is all dedicated to group play, there is no one game out there, where you can solo raid, you can not even solo arenas or PVP, so group play is and has always been part of MMO'S, the only part where MMOS switched focus from group play, is in leveling, and even then, if you so chose too, you can group up with people that enjoy that type of play and do it. The option is there.

Now quick question, let's say SE does decides to make ARR more XI oriented in leveling, how do you balance it ? XIV was already an easier leveling game than XI, and you could solo 100X better than in XI, so do you slow soloing, and if so to what degree ? Make it where it takes 3 months to cap ? 5 ? if you leave soloing how it is currently, how much better do you make Group partying ? 2X better than what it is now (Which is damm easy) do you make it where it takes a week of group playing to reach cap ? where do you draw the line ?

In my opinion a system akin to GW2 would be perfect. What would be your vision of it ?
____________________________
MUTED
#48 Jan 07 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
balishag wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
I would argue that, at least for certain jobs, and before the level cap was raised, defeating even an Easy Prey mob was not possible, or at least would be hit or miss as to if you would survive the encounter.

Again, I'm talking from a feasability standpoint. Why can't there be both? Why do those who like to group need to "understand" people who want to solo? By that same token why can't there be ultra hard things to acquire in the game for those who really want a challenge? I've been trying to stay away from this topic, and this will probably be my only post on the subject, but I think both are attainable goals.


It is possible, WOW has done it, there are things that take months and months to obtain in WOW, and things that only top tier players can obtain, such as titles, pets, and mounts, as for shiny objects, WOW moved to a more "Every body has access to obtain a legendary" if they put in the effort, now a top player might obtain one in a month, but joe from scrub guild might obtain it 6 months down the path, when its either obsolete or about to be faded out for a newer better weapon.

I am all for both camps being involved, i just dislike when one camp, wants to dominate or tell the other how to play the game they pay for, specially when one, is the one that really pays the bills down the road.


I think its possible to incorporate both aspects, but the balance is something still in question. Is it going to favor more of the "solo" aspects that you see in WoW, or the classic style of MMO's in the past. In my opinion both are equally important, because one aspect will have an easier entry level to the game, and the other will sustain that player base for longer.

I'd prefer it if the top ranked gear was nearly unobtainable, kind of like how they did in XI where expensive gear was always going to be expensive. Also, just because some gear was level 75 didnt necessarily mean it was the best. I liked how lower level gear was still relevant depending on what you were trying to accomplish from it (example: leaping boots, emp hairpin, sniper rings). Of course, crafting items & gear also has to play into consideration when balancing out the equation here as well. Anything kind of gear that is too easy to obtain devaluates it to where it becomes expendible when no longer needed.

When gear becomes too accessible by nearly putting in the time, you get tier sets ad naseum like they did in WoW. Once i got a full tier 7 set on my War and druid, tier 7.5 would come out, then tier 8, etc etc... I pretty much threw away or disenchanted all of my low level gear or tier sets. One way to overcome this is to make it so that the top tier gear isnt as important as the way you play your job. most have commented that a player's skills should be the #1 gauge of player performance, if you want that to be the case then gear has to be de-emphasized to a larger extent.



I can hear the "that's not fair though!!!!!" chants coming from down the alley, cleverly disguised in a form of an explanation as to why that won't work mind you!

Also something to consider, remember this game is being made by Japanese, realistically with their thoughts and opinions being equally and perhaps more import than ours. I don't know anyone who speaks Japanese so I have to wonder what their opinions are on their forums.

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 5:25pm by je355804
#49 Jan 07 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
*
52 posts
Ostia wrote:

Well technically if you get a full group in wow/swotor/rift, and go and farm/camp, you actually get more experience than soloing, or questing for the same amount of time, i guess my problem with you specifically is when you bring in XI, you want XIV to be like XI, XI did not have multiple types of gameplay, it was Group or quit, or solo for a gazillion years, die and curse SE! So when you say "XIV's leveling should be more like XI" what i envision is sitting in dunes for 30 levels, killing crabs over and over and over and over, that type of gameplay is outdated, group play already has the best reward in the game, END GAME! All of it is dedicated to group oriented play, be it PVP, WvsW, or PVE! It is all dedicated to group play, there is no one game out there, where you can solo raid, you can not even solo arenas or PVP, so group play is and has always been part of MMO'S, the only part where MMOS switched focus from group play, is in leveling, and even then, if you so chose too, you can group up with people that enjoy that type of play and do it. The option is there.

Now quick question, let's say SE does decides to make ARR more XI oriented in leveling, how do you balance it ? XIV was already an easier leveling game than XI, and you could solo 100X better than in XI, so do you slow soloing, and if so to what degree ? Make it where it takes 3 months to cap ? 5 ? if you leave soloing how it is currently, how much better do you make Group partying ? 2X better than what it is now (Which is damm easy) do you make it where it takes a week of group playing to reach cap ? where do you draw the line ?

In my opinion a system akin to GW2 would be perfect. What would be your vision of it ?


Outdated doesnt necessarily mean that it cant be enjoyable, all it needs is some revision to make it more modern friendly. The problem here, is that we still have a lot of purists when it comes to MMO's and a lof of young bloods who prefer WoW's pace and approach. There can be a best of both worlds scenario if designed with both parties in mind. Parts of the open world can be scaled with more difficulty, where it can facilitate the "classic" form of grouping. There can also be instancing for the less patient or time constrained. However when it comes to balancing, there has to be some type of penalty for those who do not commit as much time. I'm probably going to be one of those with less time, and i'm fine with having less. But let those with all the free time in the world have their cake too...

XIV already had this hybrid thinking in mind, it just wasnt balanced nor was it done intuitively. In fact, XIV had all the right concepts in mind, but they were all implemented poorly and as a result, the game started off as disorganized mess from the beginning. Other things of mention are the crafting system, guild leve's, and auction house (or lack thereof). They all started off with the right idea in mind, but the results were far from what they were hoping. Consider the early version of XIV as a failed social experiment, especially in the case of the bazaar "AH".

#50 Jan 07 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
*
52 posts
je355804 wrote:

I can hear the "that's not fair though!!!!!" chants coming from down the alley, cleverly disguised in a form of an explanation as to why that won't work mind you!

Also something to consider, remember this game is being made by Japanese, realistically with their thoughts and opinions being equally and perhaps more import than ours. I don't know anyone who speaks Japanese so I have to wonder what their opinions are on their forums.

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 5:25pm by je355804


Personally, i dont think any gearing system would be fair to everyone. We all have different expectations when it comes to MMOs. I'm just hoping that ARR gets it right and is able to bring in a broad playerbase for a sustainable period. In a perfect world, getting gear would be obtainable for everyone, without having to resort to 3rd party sellers. But we know this isnt going to happen.

It would be interesting to know what the japanese gamers want. But in this case, i really think the japanese player base is secondary on SE's priority list. This game will definetely feel japanese, but catered towards western gaming tastes. And being half japanese, i really think japanese gamers are starting to open up to western games.
#51 Jan 07 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
balishag wrote:
The problem here, is that we still have a lot of purists when it comes to MMO's and a lof of young bloods who prefer WoW's pace and approach.


Here's where the dichotomy gets interesting.

WoW is nearly 10 years old. In video game terms, that's ancient. To put it another way, "young bloods" consider WoW "old school," and its "purists" have moved on to games like Rift. Smiley: lol
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 18 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (18)