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#52 Jan 07 2013 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Indeed... when you're talking about "youngbloods" now, you're mostly talking about the free-to-play or buy-to-play crowd exemplified by Guild Wars 2.

WoW is almost 9 years old now, FFXI is 11 years old. Even though WoW represents a paradigm shift in the MMO genre, these two games are pretty bloody close to each other in terms of age.
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#53 Jan 07 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
balishag wrote:
The problem here, is that we still have a lot of purists when it comes to MMO's and a lof of young bloods who prefer WoW's pace and approach.


Here's where the dichotomy gets interesting.

WoW is nearly 10 years old. In video game terms, that's ancient. To put it another way, "young bloods" consider WoW "old school," and its "purists" have moved on to games like Rift. Smiley: lol


It is interesting because there were many 10-12 year old children who were playing WoW 10 years ago. They are probably early 20s now, but that is still a young blood in my book. Plus, WoW was an entry level MMO for 75% or more MMO gamers now. Classic MMO's were few and very niche back then.The dichotomy is still there for the most part, it just depends on which era you began playing and getting addicted to MMO's.
#54 Jan 07 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, I turn away for a couple of hours and this thread just a'sploded.

WoW is (hate to say it) a perfect example of how revolution rather than evolution can work out. No, WoW didn't entirely reinvent the wheel, but it did rapidly move towards providing an entirely different experience. The difference between adaption and evolution seems apt: WoW was a revolution that now adapts to the changing needs of the market. However, there are certain things that WoW will simply never be able to do because of its foundation. A game's foundation is extremely important. It determines what the game can do as the years drag on. And people are right to be worried when they notice that XIV's foundation is pretty similar to WoW's. If the best your foundation allows you to do is eventually catch up to the WoW legacy, you better hope there are a lot of players who hunger for some WoW-style gameplay outside of playing WoW.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#55 Jan 07 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well at least XIV got it's Cataclysm out of the way early on Smiley: grin
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#56 Jan 07 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh crap, does that mean pandas are coming in a future expansion?
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#57 Jan 07 2013 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
Nah, it means we'll get Zebras. Zebras = black n white, Pandas = black n white. You know, since some people think that FFXIV is a perfect example of an "almost, not quite" wow clone.
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#58 Jan 07 2013 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Oh crap, does that mean pandas are coming in a future expansion?


No, no. Wint, you need to think within the realms of Final Fantasy lore. What species is out there in the series that no one would expect, but would geek out over if they appeared as a playable race?

The answer?

Hummingways!
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#59 Jan 07 2013 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
balishag wrote:
Ostia wrote:

Well technically if you get a full group in wow/swotor/rift, and go and farm/camp, you actually get more experience than soloing, or questing for the same amount of time, i guess my problem with you specifically is when you bring in XI, you want XIV to be like XI, XI did not have multiple types of gameplay, it was Group or quit, or solo for a gazillion years, die and curse SE! So when you say "XIV's leveling should be more like XI" what i envision is sitting in dunes for 30 levels, killing crabs over and over and over and over, that type of gameplay is outdated, group play already has the best reward in the game, END GAME! All of it is dedicated to group oriented play, be it PVP, WvsW, or PVE! It is all dedicated to group play, there is no one game out there, where you can solo raid, you can not even solo arenas or PVP, so group play is and has always been part of MMO'S, the only part where MMOS switched focus from group play, is in leveling, and even then, if you so chose too, you can group up with people that enjoy that type of play and do it. The option is there.

Now quick question, let's say SE does decides to make ARR more XI oriented in leveling, how do you balance it ? XIV was already an easier leveling game than XI, and you could solo 100X better than in XI, so do you slow soloing, and if so to what degree ? Make it where it takes 3 months to cap ? 5 ? if you leave soloing how it is currently, how much better do you make Group partying ? 2X better than what it is now (Which is damm easy) do you make it where it takes a week of group playing to reach cap ? where do you draw the line ?

In my opinion a system akin to GW2 would be perfect. What would be your vision of it ?


Outdated doesnt necessarily mean that it cant be enjoyable, all it needs is some revision to make it more modern friendly. The problem here, is that we still have a lot of purists when it comes to MMO's and a lof of young bloods who prefer WoW's pace and approach. There can be a best of both worlds scenario if designed with both parties in mind. Parts of the open world can be scaled with more difficulty, where it can facilitate the "classic" form of grouping. There can also be instancing for the less patient or time constrained. However when it comes to balancing, there has to be some type of penalty for those who do not commit as much time. I'm probably going to be one of those with less time, and i'm fine with having less. But let those with all the free time in the world have their cake too...

XIV already had this hybrid thinking in mind, it just wasnt balanced nor was it done intuitively. In fact, XIV had all the right concepts in mind, but they were all implemented poorly and as a result, the game started off as disorganized mess from the beginning. Other things of mention are the crafting system, guild leve's, and auction house (or lack thereof). They all started off with the right idea in mind, but the results were far from what they were hoping. Consider the early version of XIV as a failed social experiment, especially in the case of the bazaar "AH".



I have to agree with this. I was pretty excited about the ffxiv crafting system because it seemed to be a lot more technical than most MMOs coming out at the time. Much more complex. I think they were trying to go for an EVE-esque market with the bazaar instead of a global AH like WoW or GW2 has. Local markets mean fluctuations in prices which means opportunities for profit. A more interesting system, it's just the actual application was... well, most people experienced it. Every part of the game was like this. Trying a really good idea, but just not doing it quite right.
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#60 Jan 07 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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balishag wrote:
je355804 wrote:

I can hear the "that's not fair though!!!!!" chants coming from down the alley, cleverly disguised in a form of an explanation as to why that won't work mind you!

Also something to consider, remember this game is being made by Japanese, realistically with their thoughts and opinions being equally and perhaps more import than ours. I don't know anyone who speaks Japanese so I have to wonder what their opinions are on their forums.

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 5:25pm by je355804


Personally, i dont think any gearing system would be fair to everyone. We all have different expectations when it comes to MMOs. I'm just hoping that ARR gets it right and is able to bring in a broad playerbase for a sustainable period. In a perfect world, getting gear would be obtainable for everyone, without having to resort to 3rd party sellers. But we know this isnt going to happen.

It would be interesting to know what the japanese gamers want. But in this case, i really think the japanese player base is secondary on SE's priority list. This game will definetely feel japanese, but catered towards western gaming tastes. And being half japanese, i really think japanese gamers are starting to open up to western games.



@Ostia ... Tomorrow I will respond your post. You bring up many good points and I want to respond appropriately when I'm not nearly asleep.

@Bali I would have to say there is in fact a gearing system that's fair. FFXIs for example was fair. Players that work their butts off every day will have better gear than casual players. That's how it should be!
#61 Jan 08 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
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@Je

XI's gearing system was good but far from perfect. The balance statistic wise was a good thing in that you didnt have to constantly re-gear like you would in WoW. There were simply set pieces for each job and you would rarely have to make dramatic changes even while leveling up. The only problem was the price for top end gear (which were marginally better at best in most cases). I guess you can say that gear was de-emphasized to a degree, in order to favor team dynamics over gear.. but people still found ways to make gear sound ultra important.

The point in bold that i was trying to make was that with any kind of gearing system, especially when gear was hard to obtain in XI, 3rd party sellers became even more prevalent than the gold sellers on WoW as a result. The fact that you had to work hours on end just to get mediocre items, resulted in many people taking shortcuts. It basically led more people to buy from 3rd party sellers, fish bot, or do some other kind of other scam. This is a side effect, but its something that i tie into the gear aspect of MMO's.
#62 Jan 08 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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balishag wrote:
@Je
XI's gearing system was good but far from perfect. The balance statistic wise was a good thing in that you didnt have to constantly re-gear like you would in WoW.


Gearing was done well but it got stagnant after a while. That's a direct result of the level cap not being raised until the last few years. Wow only has that regearing because new content gets released and the level caps go up. It's a different model, sure, but that doesn't make it a bad one. You do new dungeons and tackle new challenges instead of wait in line for your nth Kirin kill or whatever.
#63 Jan 08 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW gearing was another problem in itself. it became an endless cycle of new zone, new quests, level up, do instance runs, do raids, and then rinse repeat with every new content released. I'm one to think that there are ways to add depth to end game content without having to always raise the bar on max level and gear.

I would prefer that the best end game gear stays with crafters just like they did in XI, with a few exceptions. Crafting in WoW was pretty much worthless unless you were an enchanter or JC. For the sake of keepign crafting relevant, some key items should still be made by the respective craft so that it will be worth your time to level up the gathering/crafting skill
#64 Jan 08 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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balishag wrote:
WoW gearing was another problem in itself. it became an endless cycle of new zone, new quests, level up, do instance runs, do raids, and then rinse repeat with every new content released. I'm one to think that there are ways to add depth to end game content without having to always raise the bar on max level and gear.

I would prefer that the best end game gear stays with crafters just like they did in XI, with a few exceptions. Crafting in WoW was pretty much worthless unless you were an enchanter or JC. For the sake of keepign crafting relevant, some key items should still be made by the respective craft so that it will be worth your time to level up the gathering/crafting skill


An endless cycle of new zones, quests, instances and raids (and the stories and lore that comes with it) is somehow a bad thing? I dunno - not sure I can really get on board with you there. Every couple of years I kind of like something new to explore and conquer. Otherwise, won't I just go to another game instead of doing Sky for the nth time? Eventually that's what happened. You can only add so many sidegrades to a character before you start to run out of patience... and inventory space.

I also don't agree that the best end game gear should lie with crafters. What's the point of killing that big bad dragon if not to rummage through all that juicy treasure you just KNOW he's sitting on? Battles for the sake of battles or story are fun, until the first time you defeat the boss. And unless there is some reason for you to continue to defeat that boss, you will sit around and twiddle your thumbs until something new comes along. But wait, we didn't want an endless cycle of content, right? So let's all go farm beehive chips to sell so we can get that epic gear that is only obtainable from a crafter.

I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Yea it would be great for time to stand still in exactly the place where we are most happy, but time marches forward and people get bored. An mmo isn't an offline game where you just repeat the same content over and over again, it's a living and breathing universe. I'd much rather see the game constantly challenging itself, and the players, than just freezing us in time with no progression unless it's sidegrades and then only from a crafter.
#65 Jan 08 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Wow is more Skill oriented in obtaining the best Gear, XI is more Time Spent/Grinding oriented in obtaining the best Gear.

I do not see how adding the zones, quests, items, istances and runs is a problem, it sure is better than doing the same 4-5 boss fights over and over and over and over and over for years end.....
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#66 Jan 08 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
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balishag wrote:
@Je

XI's gearing system was good but far from perfect. The balance statistic wise was a good thing in that you didnt have to constantly re-gear like you would in WoW. There were simply set pieces for each job and you would rarely have to make dramatic changes even while leveling up. The only problem was the price for top end gear (which were marginally better at best in most cases). I guess you can say that gear was de-emphasized to a degree, in order to favor team dynamics over gear.. but people still found ways to make gear sound ultra important.

The point in bold that i was trying to make was that with any kind of gearing system, especially when gear was hard to obtain in XI, 3rd party sellers became even more prevalent than the gold sellers on WoW as a result. The fact that you had to work hours on end just to get mediocre items, resulted in many people taking shortcuts. It basically led more people to buy from 3rd party sellers, fish bot, or do some other kind of other scam. This is a side effect, but its something that i tie into the gear aspect of MMO's.



To that I agree. I think the way one obtained gear was perfect... The marginal difference between different pieces however sucked... and was a major turn-off.
#67 Jan 08 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
balishag wrote:
@Je
XI's gearing system was good but far from perfect. The balance statistic wise was a good thing in that you didnt have to constantly re-gear like you would in WoW.


Gearing was done well but it got stagnant after a while. That's a direct result of the level cap not being raised until the last few years. Wow only has that regearing because new content gets released and the level caps go up. It's a different model, sure, but that doesn't make it a bad one. You do new dungeons and tackle new challenges instead of wait in line for your nth Kirin kill or whatever.


Gearing was done "ok" but there were a lot of crackhead decisions that went into gearing which suggested that it was done with little thought. In particular, taking significant development time to create equipment that no one in their right mind would ever use. ****, probably only 10% of the equipment in the game serves any actual use whatsoever last I checked. Overall I think the way gear was allocated was awful; one of the worst things about XI and the primary reason for its mitigated success.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#68 Jan 08 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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It's a side effect of having such wide horizontal progression (and the ability to macro pieces of gear in and out during combat).

One of the primary reasons WoW and other MMOs are designed with tiers of endgame content and eventual increases in the level cap is to avoid this exact problem.
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#69 Jan 08 2013 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with that... there's nothing wrong with having very wide horizontal progression. That wasn't XI's problem. XI's problems were 1) extreme grinding or camping to get gear, 2) absurdly low drop rates, 3) poor content-incentive management. They had more than enough content to substantially lessen the requirements to get good gear, and the horizontal system ensured that there was a constant incentive potential to improve. The problem was that they didn't DO that and then spread out the good gear in a way that encouraged players to experience more of it. They had tons of boss-fight style encounters and quests that players would have happily done if there were any incentive to do them, and if they weren't so busy farming the same boring **** for a slim chance at getting what was only the next piece of gear on a wishlist that was already 100 items long.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#70 Jan 08 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Oh crap, does that mean pandas are coming in a future expansion?


Moogles as a playable race? I'm down for that.
#71 Jan 08 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I don't agree with that... there's nothing wrong with having very wide horizontal progression. That wasn't XI's problem. XI's problems were 1) extreme grinding or camping to get gear, 2) absurdly low drop rates, 3) poor content-incentive management. They had more than enough content to substantially lessen the requirements to get good gear, and the horizontal system ensured that there was a constant incentive potential to improve. The problem was that they didn't DO that and then spread out the good gear in a way that encouraged players to experience more of it. They had tons of boss-fight style encounters and quests that players would have happily done if there were any incentive to do them, and if they weren't so busy farming the same boring sh*t for a slim chance at getting what was only the next piece of gear on a wishlist that was already 100 items long.



I think there should always be an extremely amazing class of gear with absurdly drop rates, for all tiers of levels too.

It provides that extra feeling of "hellll yeahhhh" when you actually get it.

Not to say all gear should be like this, just supreme gear that very few have.
#72 Jan 08 2013 at 5:36 PM Rating: Default
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^^^^ Please for the love of god Smiley: oyvey Why not gear that is absurdly hard to get due to a drop rate of 0.00001% chance BUT! Is totally USELESS! Now that's a Kicker! Why not that ?
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#73 Jan 08 2013 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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XI fixed some of the pain of the low drop rates for good gear with the "incremental progress" system used in Abyssea. The base gear is easy to get - go buy it from a vendor for the cost of whatever currency is specific to that piece. (Except for shoes, the RNG in the form of gold boxes still exists for those.) Collect 8-10 seals that match the gear to upgrade it to +1. The seals drop from monsters that can be solo'd with some difficulty by some jobs, and completely pwnt by a group of four or more. You have direct control over your drop rate, so the soloer will see poorer drops compared to the well assembled 4-man team. Each mob drops four types of seals, so everyone gets something. The +2 version is upgraded by collecting jewels and coins and stuff from more difficult NMs, but again a 4-man group can handle them without too much difficulty. Those NMs drop other things used to upgrade the Empyrean weapons so there's an incentive for full parties or larger to tackle them, allowing for better job diversity and more effective killing times.

So instead of waiting six months to a year for that super uber rare 1% drop, you can just collect seals and upgrade items over a period of time, or all at once, and feel like you accomplished something. Getting a full +2 set still takes a good deal of effort, but it's completely acceptable gear (and with the set bonus, is the best gear for quite a few jobs.)

I hope XIV incorporates an incremental progress gear system, via its questing or whatever.
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#74 Jan 08 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Wint wrote:
Oh crap, does that mean pandas are coming in a future expansion?


Moogles as a playable race? I'm down for that.


I suggested that a couple of years ago. God, would you believe all the crying that it couldn't be done? I'd love to be able to play as a Moogle.

je355804 wrote:
I think there should always be an extremely amazing class of gear with absurdly drop rates, for all tiers of levels too.

It provides that extra feeling of "hellll yeahhhh" when you actually get it.

Not to say all gear should be like this, just supreme gear that very few have.


I don't. Horizontal progress and cosmetic options for hardcore players work great and don't put out players who aren't masochists by dangling prizes in front of them that they'll never have. Extremely amazing gear essentially makes most/all the non-amazing gear and the content associated with it obsolete.

Quote:
XI fixed some of the pain of the low drop rates for good gear with the "incremental progress" system used in Abyssea. The base gear is easy to get - go buy it from a vendor for the cost of whatever currency is specific to that piece. (Except for shoes, the RNG in the form of gold boxes still exists for those.) Collect 8-10 seals that match the gear to upgrade it to +1. The seals drop from monsters that can be solo'd with some difficulty by some jobs, and completely pwnt by a group of four or more. You have direct control over your drop rate, so the soloer will see poorer drops compared to the well assembled 4-man team. Each mob drops four types of seals, so everyone gets something. The +2 version is upgraded by collecting jewels and coins and stuff from more difficult NMs, but again a 4-man group can handle them without too much difficulty. Those NMs drop other things used to upgrade the Empyrean weapons so there's an incentive for full parties or larger to tackle them, allowing for better job diversity and more effective killing times.

So instead of waiting six months to a year for that super uber rare 1% drop, you can just collect seals and upgrade items over a period of time, or all at once, and feel like you accomplished something. Getting a full +2 set still takes a good deal of effort, but it's completely acceptable gear (and with the set bonus, is the best gear for quite a few jobs.)


...like this!
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 Jan 09 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:

The "evolution" approach is EXACTLY WHY these new games are almost sure to fail. Evolution is a slow process, which means that the products that come out look more or less the same. If they're more or less the same, then they're automatically boring, now matter how much objectively better they are than the predecessor! And if they're already kind of boring, most people will stick to the game that they've already invested years in!

..........
Maybe open source or crowd-sourced MMO design will proliferate further in the near future and we'll see a much more viable willingness to take those risks.


agree with this. I'm kind of waiting for the Sandbox Revolution, because we haven't seen a good sandbox with new tech (minecraft doesnt count) Although I don't think that this will be it. Could be interesting, but I'm a little wary of their "crowd-forging". You pays your money and you gives your opinion (and they presumably cater to the opinions of the high-rollers). Is it better to have fans with cash pulling the strings, or a big publisher? Is it any different at all?

Or am i just being a **** and assuming that "fan with cash = fan who doesn't understand game design"?

Either way, i am more comfortable with, say, Bryan Fargo's Wasteland 2 kickstarting model (you pays your money and you gets a weapon/NPC named after you/ingame statue of you etc).

And I don't know much about how crowd-sourcing would work for an MMO, but it certainly has the potential for awesomeness.

To the "how we obtain gear issue"? What do people think of mechanics such as speed runs (or similar skill-based challenges that require more than just beating X boss 100 times) as gates to obtaining better gear? I never attempted the speed run requirements in 1.23, because i never went after a relic/didn't play much.

I suppose it would come down to implementation, as it would be all too easy to exchange one form of mindless tedium/grind for another.

Last question: How does everyone feel about the best gear (aside from relics) be crafted, and not easy/cheap to craft?

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 5:14pm by Llester
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#76 Jan 09 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
because we haven't seen a good sandbox with new tech (minecraft doesnt count)


Why doesn't Minecraft count?

Quote:
And I don't know much about how crowd-sourcing would work for an MMO, but it certainly has the potential for awesomeness.


Visit any major MMO developer's official forums. Yeah, there's a good reason they don't crowdsource these things.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of speed runs being required for gear upgrades, for the simple reason that min/maxing becomes an absolutely critical component to that, and less desirable classes eventually find themselves unable to progress through no actual fault of their own.

The best gear should be obtainable through doing content. If the best gear in the game is available through crafting, then what's the content for after you've done it once?
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#77 Jan 09 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Second Life was somewhat crow sourced. It turned into the wild wild west of virtual worlds. Businesses wasted millions of dollars on fake virtual real estate.

And now it's filled with a bunch of walking penises. Literally. The crowd sourcing attracted the script kiddies, who coded giant walking penises and then sold them to other people.
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#78 Jan 09 2013 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
because we haven't seen a good sandbox with new tech (minecraft doesnt count)


Why doesn't Minecraft count?

Quote:
And I don't know much about how crowd-sourcing would work for an MMO, but it certainly has the potential for awesomeness.


Visit any major MMO developer's official forums. Yeah, there's a good reason they don't crowdsource these things.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of speed runs being required for gear upgrades, for the simple reason that min/maxing becomes an absolutely critical component to that, and less desirable classes eventually find themselves unable to progress through no actual fault of their own.

The best gear should be obtainable through doing content. If the best gear in the game is available through crafting, then what's the content for after you've done it once?


I believe that some key pieces of gear can/should be obtainable through content, but a good chunk of the best gear should come from crafting otherwise it dimishes its' importance or relevance like it did in WoW. Considering that leveling up crafts/gathering takes substantial time, it should be rewarded accordingly.
#79 Jan 09 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:

An endless cycle of new zones, quests, instances and raids (and the stories and lore that comes with it) is somehow a bad thing? I dunno - not sure I can really get on board with you there. Every couple of years I kind of like something new to explore and conquer. Otherwise, won't I just go to another game instead of doing Sky for the nth time? Eventually that's what happened. You can only add so many sidegrades to a character before you start to run out of patience... and inventory space.

I also don't agree that the best end game gear should lie with crafters. What's the point of killing that big bad dragon if not to rummage through all that juicy treasure you just KNOW he's sitting on? Battles for the sake of battles or story are fun, until the first time you defeat the boss. And unless there is some reason for you to continue to defeat that boss, you will sit around and twiddle your thumbs until something new comes along. But wait, we didn't want an endless cycle of content, right? So let's all go farm beehive chips to sell so we can get that epic gear that is only obtainable from a crafter.

I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Yea it would be great for time to stand still in exactly the place where we are most happy, but time marches forward and people get bored. An mmo isn't an offline game where you just repeat the same content over and over again, it's a living and breathing universe. I'd much rather see the game constantly challenging itself, and the players, than just freezing us in time with no progression unless it's sidegrades and then only from a crafter.


The lore or exploration of new zones is not the part im arguing against. When they serve no other purpose than to add to the grind, is when i have issues. There comes a point when gear hunting gets old and when this cycle is repeated ad naseum through updates,expansions, and increasing max level. The addition of zones can add depth through other means besides adding instances > raids > boss fights. What is the point of having an open world when only less than 5% of each zone will matter once you've quested your way through it?

Again, you can have essential gear by fighting "big bad dragons" but this should not be the only the only way of obtaining your best set of gear. If a living breathing universe is what you want, then having farming/crafting is a good thing for it. It provides added dimensions to the game other than just battling your way through a dungeon/boss. Creating a big emphasis on farming/crafting will facilitate trading, and as a result trading will facilitate an actual market and economy within the game. I'm not against changing and improving the environment, but heavily leaning on boss fights to provide that change is not the way to go. You're right, this is an online game and a virtual world so to speak, and i hope to progress in it, in as many ways as it can provide.
#80 Jan 09 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Second Life was somewhat crow sourced. It turned into the wild wild west of virtual worlds. Businesses wasted millions of dollars on fake virtual real estate.

And now it's filled with a bunch of walking penises. Literally. The crowd sourcing attracted the script kiddies, who coded giant walking penises and then sold them to other people.


Just to make sure we're all on the same page with semantics:

Not all crowd-sourcing is open source. Github is a perfect example of how software managers screen and implement the crowdsource solutions that they like. You have a great submission with walking penises but you don't want walking penises, you find someone to remove the walking ***** code and use that version. (Though personally I think a walking ***** version sounds pretty awesome.)

Crowd-sourced FUNDING is another matter altogether, e.g., Kickstarter. These players don't necessarily have any say in the development of the game; they're just voting on the concept with their dollars.

So those are the crowd-sourcing solutions I was referring to regarding taking risks with revolutionizing MMOs.
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#81 Jan 09 2013 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah yeah, that's different.

I haven't funded any games via Kickstarter. Plenty of books, art projects, and even a friggin bus stop here in town (that was just named one of the top kickstarters of 2012.) No video games. I'm concerned that a lot of the folks trying to make video games are biting off more than they can chew, especially if they're newbies. On the flip side, a lot of industry veteran teams have turned to Kickstarter to fund projects they can't get a big studio to commit to - they're more likely to be the innovators you're thinking of.

What's the latest news on the Ouyo or whatever it's called?
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#82 Jan 09 2013 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Ah yeah, that's different.

I haven't funded any games via Kickstarter. Plenty of books, art projects, and even a friggin bus stop here in town (that was just named one of the top kickstarters of 2012.) No video games. I'm concerned that a lot of the folks trying to make video games are biting off more than they can chew, especially if they're newbies. On the flip side, a lot of industry veteran teams have turned to Kickstarter to fund projects they can't get a big studio to commit to - they're more likely to be the innovators you're thinking of.

What's the latest news on the Ouyo or whatever it's called?


Enough videogames do get their funding via Kickstarter (including an infamous one that was shut down before the goal because it turned out to be basically ********** but yeah, it really depends on their resources. A single person or a small team can pretty easily manage a fairly simple mobile game or browser game. Your genuine $50 game for a PC/console title, or something with online multiplayer, and you really probably need to see a pretty robust team.

The way things are now, even the idea of an industry team of vets funding an MMO through Kickstarter is unlikely... you still need a very large team and a whole lot of money. Not impossible, just requiring a very particular type of game with relatively low development needs most likely. Frankly I'm not sure I'd trust a team of industry vets to make something innovative in the first place. Certainly the odds are that they won't. Young indie blood is what the market craves.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#83 Jan 10 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
What's the latest news on the Ouyo or whatever it's called?


Dev units have shipped, sounds like it's a pretty nice little console. Might even see some emulators on it.
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#84 Jan 10 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
because we haven't seen a good sandbox with new tech (minecraft doesnt count)


Why doesn't Minecraft count?


Because i said so. Fine, I'll clarify. Good AAA sandbox MMO with new tech and some kind of story and not Wolfenstein 3D graphics.

Quote:
And I don't know much about how crowd-sourcing would work for an MMO, but it certainly has the potential for awesomeness.


Archmage Callinon wrote:

Visit any major MMO developer's official forums. Yeah, there's a good reason they don't crowdsource these things.


That sounded clever, but you're operating under the fallacy that the mouthbreathers on the forums are all coders/artists/level designers, and that said developer would just take any ******* who wanted to contribute their "ideas". The guy saying "its dumb for Rangers to have unlimited arrows because its not realistic" probably isn't the guy who can code/model/texture. And if he was, I'd imagine any smart dev team would, I don't know, put recruited talent through an application/review process?

Wasteland 2 asked fans to offer their skillsets to help with the game. The devs didn't just give them the code and let them run wild with it. That would be retarded. Fans posted on the forums with their skillsets/offerings, and were plucked from the pool.

Think it through more.

Archmage Callinon wrote:

I'm not a big fan of the idea of speed runs being required for gear upgrades, for the simple reason that min/maxing becomes an absolutely critical component to that, and less desirable classes eventually find themselves unable to progress through no actual fault of their own.


I have similar concerns. I'm not much of a game designer, but I have to imagine there are ways around this. This is a less than ideal example, but a jumping puzzle is the kind of thing that would avoid min/max or class requirements.

Archmage Callinon wrote:

The best gear should be obtainable through doing content. If the best gear in the game is available through crafting, then what's the content for after you've done it once?


That, good sir, is called an opinion. Kind of an outdated one too, imo. There are other ways to motivate people to do content. Making it fun is one way. Offering cosmetic rewards/titles, and/or having leaderboards. Come on, think outside the box a little.

Making the best (non-relic) gear obtainable through crafters fosters community and economy. Its an old and more sandboxy way of doing things. My question is, do people still want that? Clearly, you do not. Totally fine.

Also, this:
Kachi wrote:

Not all crowd-sourcing is open source. Github is a perfect example of how software managers screen and implement the crowdsource solutions that they like. You have a great submission with walking penises but you don't want walking penises, you find someone to remove the walking ***** code and use that version. (Though personally I think a walking ***** version sounds pretty awesome.)

Crowd-sourced FUNDING is another matter altogether, e.g., Kickstarter. These players don't necessarily have any say in the development of the game; they're just voting on the concept with their dollars.


Edited, Jan 10th 2013 8:12am by Llester

Edited, Jan 10th 2013 8:15am by Llester
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#85 Jan 18 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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balishag wrote:

The lore or exploration of new zones is not the part im arguing against. When they serve no other purpose than to add to the grind, is when i have issues. There comes a point when gear hunting gets old and when this cycle is repeated ad naseum through updates,expansions, and increasing max level. The addition of zones can add depth through other means besides adding instances > raids > boss fights. What is the point of having an open world when only less than 5% of each zone will matter once you've quested your way through it?

Again, you can have essential gear by fighting "big bad dragons" but this should not be the only the only way of obtaining your best set of gear. If a living breathing universe is what you want, then having farming/crafting is a good thing for it. It provides added dimensions to the game other than just battling your way through a dungeon/boss. Creating a big emphasis on farming/crafting will facilitate trading, and as a result trading will facilitate an actual market and economy within the game. I'm not against changing and improving the environment, but heavily leaning on boss fights to provide that change is not the way to go. You're right, this is an online game and a virtual world so to speak, and i hope to progress in it, in as many ways as it can provide.


Well what purpose does ANY update serve other than to "add to the grind"? It really sounds like your definition of grind is the same as my definition of "playing the game". New dungeons to explore, new antagonists to ***-kick, and new cities where the townsfolks absolutely need a hero like me sounds like a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong, I did my XI grind in Ulegerand Range double ice weather uphill both ways and I loved it, but after I got a little older and started having more responsibilities, that "kind" of grind just wasn't interesting anymore. A more casual approach to general leveling, with advanced group content if I had time for it seemed like a much better model, and I moved on to other games that offered that.

I'm also not against crafting, I just don't think that Final Fantasy XIV should be an economy mmo. It should be an RPG, like XI was before it. Crafting has its place, but it should not have the level of focus that it sounds like you want it to have. Supplemental gear, yes. Best in slot? Maybe a piece or two but there should always be a way to get great gear that doesn't involve paying 99999999 gil to someone else.
#86 Jan 19 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
^^^^ Please for the love of god Smiley: oyvey Why not gear that is absurdly hard to get due to a drop rate of 0.00001% chance BUT! Is totally USELESS! Now that's a Kicker! Why not that ?


As long as it looks better than the other gear I'm fine with it!
#87 Jan 19 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just honestly surprised no one has said anything about the absurd title of this running post.
#88 Jan 19 2013 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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#89 Jan 20 2013 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It's a side effect of having such wide horizontal progression (and the ability to macro pieces of gear in and out during combat).

One of the primary reasons WoW and other MMOs are designed with tiers of endgame content and eventual increases in the level cap is to avoid this exact problem.


The primary reason WoW and other MMOs are designed with tiers of endgame content and eventual increases in the level cap is because it's really f*cking easy to do things that way. In fact, it's the easiest possible route they can take. It's as simple as that; any other results are simply side-effects.

Need some new content? Just slide everything up an arbitrary 5 levels on your exponential curve. All the old stuff is obsolete, all the new stuff is unquestionably superior... then do it again next year.

Now, I know that there's more to gear sets than a single stat, and I know that set bonuses come in to play, &c., &c., but here's a quick example to illustrate WoW's incredibly simple, exponential curve in action using all of the tiered Mage body pieces in the game (the best sets within each tier are referenced for brevity):

Tier 1 Mage body piece: INT +20
Tier 2 Mage body piece: INT +27
Tier 3 Mage body piece: INT +40
Tier 4 Mage body piece: INT +42
Tier 5 Mage body piece: INT +47
Tier 6 Mage body piece: INT +53
Tier 7 Mage body piece: INT +74
Tier 8 Mage body piece: INT +106
Tier 9 Mage body piece: INT +120
Tier 10 Mage body piece: INT+ 137
Tier 11 Mage body piece: INT +146
Tier 12 Mage body piece: INT +345
Tier 13 Mage body piece: INT +489
Tier 14 Mage body piece: INT +1140

You can readily observe how they began at the lowest part of a basic exponential curve, and now just move the slider to re-balance the game upon every new expansion. Developers don't do this because of some grand commitment to stave off horizontal progression, they do it because most of the game balances itself that way.
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#90 Jan 20 2013 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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Not to mention there's nothing wrong with horizontal progression... it's more often the better approach for endgame design. It's a great way to make your content meaningful and progressively increase player flexibility, opening up new playstyles (rather than just opening up bigger numbers). The problem is when you manage that content poorly (see: FFXI).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#91 Jan 20 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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I made the comment last night in FFXI that my pimped to the teeth 99 BLM still wears the ratty old blue AF coat for sleeps, because they never introduced any better body pieces for that particular task. Sure, it's the +1 version, which consequently made it a level 74 piece instead of a level 58 piece, but I'm still lugging it around at level 99!

On the other hand... there's something almost comforting about lugging around a beloved body piece that's been with me for six years, and still does the job it was made to do - temporarily boost my enfeebling skills so sleeps can land without as much trouble.
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#92 Jan 20 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure it's necessarily the better approach; just a different approach. The two biggest problems I found with FFXI's horizontal progression system were equipment management and power creep.

Keeping optimal sets of gear became more and more difficult (and mathy) as time went on. This created strains on inventory space and macro space trying to manage all that gear. Situations where you'd collect the entire set of something only to use one piece of it on 21% of your spells/ws, but you'd collect the entire set so you could use the equipment storage npc, and you'd have to lug the whole thing out when you wanted that one piece you actually cared about. Furthermore FFXI's macro system allowing (and therefore requiring) individual pieces of gear to be swapped out in combat, meant that in order to stay optimal you often had to push two, three, or even four macros before you actually hit your spell/ws/ja/whatever. Extremely cumbersome and not at all intuitive.

Then you come to power creep. Every time SE released a new type of endgame content, they had to make sure there was some reason for you to do it. So there was always something in the gear you could obtain that was marginally better than whatever you had before. This again contributed to the very mathy nature of gear management. It was often not clear which piece or pieces you may want from new content that comes out, you know there are going to be upgrades in there, but it usually took a degree in advanced calculus to figure out what they were.

Now, you can easily say that a vertical progression system like WoW's swings too far in the other direction. That's totally fair. In WoW there's really no question, the gear with the higher item level is superior (with a few rare exceptions that they try not to have happen). The gear with the set bonuses is better then gear without them. There's really no thought at all that goes into gearing in that game. Get higher item level gear -> Gem, Enchant, Reforge it -> vendor the gear you had before. This is pretty simplistic.

I think what it ultimately boils down to is how much attention do you want players to focus on what they're wearing as opposed to what they're doing?

WoW has simplistic gear management, but it also has some of the best raiding in all of MMOdom right now. WoW's vertical system also has the advantage of being able to focus the players to a single tier of content, making grouping easier since you know that anyone who's ready for endgame is ready for the same endgame as everyone else at any given time.

So once again, not necessarily that one system is better than the other. It's not the system but the implementation that ultimately matters. A horizontal system can work if it's supported and managed so that the player doesn't feel like they're spending more time in MS Excel than they are playing the game. A vertical system can fail if it doesn't provide interesting content (locking players into a particular tier that happens to suck for a long period of time is no bueno).
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#93 Jan 20 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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#94 Jan 20 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm not sure it's necessarily the better approach; just a different approach. The two biggest problems I found with FFXI's horizontal progression system were equipment management and power creep.


Sure, there are potential pratfalls with any system. But the pratfall of a vertical system inherently undermines motivation, because the system invalidates previous rewards by definition. The rewards become a means rather than an end. In game design, the end is "fun" and the means are "work." The sooner your players start to feel that they're not achieving anything meaningful, they'll stop having fun.

Now, it could just be that I'm not feeling particularly creative right now... if you asked me, is there any way to make a vertical system that doesn't make previous gear entirely worthless, I might have an answer. In the past I've talked about diagonal progression systems where the two approaches are combined. That, for example, can work fine, but it's much more work from a design perspective than a more strict horizontal system.

So that's why this is a rare instance where I'll say that a horizontal approach is a better approach. Yes, equipment management and power creep can be problems, but they are problems that are easy to deal with if you are prepared for them. I had proposed an equipment management system that addressed those issues for FFXIV. Power creep is more inevitable, and for expansions, usually desirable. You just try to ensure that all of your encounters have something for the majority of players that improves their flexibility in combat even if it doesn't outright provide a definitive bonus. You have to be careful not to design many "best in slot" items.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Jan 20 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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But the pratfall of a vertical system inherently undermines motivation, because the system invalidates previous rewards by definition.


Absolutely true. And I'm not sure there's really a good solution to that.

Diagonal progression isn't a thing I've ever seen, I'd be interested in what you mean by that.
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#96 Jan 20 2013 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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It's really just a combination of both progression systems. Vertical progression continues to be a moving force for new content for leveling up, player abilities, etc... the things that are not "items" but remain as part of the character. Meanwhile, item-based progression remains horizontal. Items you acquire predominantly make you more flexible as opposed to more powerful across the board. It can be done the reverse way as well, where items are the impetus of vertical progression, and the character grows outwards through constantly learning new skills, but it wouldn't ring as familiar to players and is generally harder to design.

As some non-examples, merits in FFXI were not this. You specifically have to continue to raise the statistics that your players have to an extent where old content is being markedly easier than the new content. Raiding for gear in WoW is also not this. The gear provides vertical bonuses which make prior gear obsolete.

To turn a quick example, if the gear that you earned in WoW raids provided no statistical advantage over your current gear, but instead opened up new playstyles which made you more flexible, and in certain situations, more powerful (like say, as a mage, improved your wind magic independently of other types of magic), then that would be diagonal progression. This is all rather abstract and requires an understanding that horizontal progression still inherently creates a slow and linear vertical progression, which I assume you do since you recognize the problem of power creep in horizontal progression systems.

Personally I think raising statistics as the momentum for player progression is not the answer, but this approach can reconcile the two if you're determined to rely on vertical progression. Actually, the longer I think on MMORPG design, the more I think that the idea of continuous leveling up (e.g., having 50 levels instead of 10) has altogether been bad for the genre in terms of balancing content and rewarding players.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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