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FFXIV now with more WoW and Aion?Follow

#1 Jan 07 2013 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV
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#2 Jan 07 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV



Join the camp (the one I'm in.) And prepare your semi-flame retardent, semi-condescending shield. Also, prepare for people to begin speaking in old english at you, in order to convey the point that your thinking is a way of the past.

Good luck m'lad.
#3 Jan 07 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Koren F2P MMOs are about as opposite of WoW as you can get... so... it's like you're complaining that FFXIV is too big and too small in the same breath. And that's not even considering that you're also complaining that FFXIV is like FFXIV.
#4 Jan 07 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Koren F2P MMOs are about as opposite of WoW as you can get... so... it's like you're complaining that FFXIV is too big and too small in the same breath. And that's not even considering that you're also complaining that FFXIV is like FFXIV.

edit:::
... Nevermind. I give up.


Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:22pm by je355804
#5 Jan 07 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.
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#6 Jan 07 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.


Exactly which RPGs or mmorpgs have you been playing where 90pct of the combat isn't repetitive. I keep seeing people make this comment and NOBODY making any real suggestions about how to fix it. I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked must represent the entire game after all.

ETA. If you don't like the combat in these types of games maybe you don't like these types of games?

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 7:29pm by LebargeX
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#7 Jan 07 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked


I think they meant that the equations are being reworked, not the combat itself. The final combat system will very likely be more similar to its alpha state than different from it. That's really to be expected, though: how many times does one expect them to try and reinvent the game?
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#8 Jan 07 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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LebargeX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.


Exactly which RPGs or mmorpgs have you been playing where 90pct of the combat isn't repetitive. I keep seeing people make this comment and NOBODY making any real suggestions about how to fix it. I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked must represent the entire game after all.

ETA. If you don't like the combat in these types of games maybe you don't like these types of games?

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 7:29pm by LebargeX


I've made lots of suggestions about how to fix it. It's simply a matter of making the game more skillful by requiring greater mental or physical skill. For example, Crisis Core, Dissidia, No More Heroes, and Monster Hunter (and Borderlands for a western example) all share both action and RPG elements. I could go on at the other end for strategy games, but I feel I've made my point. Even most of the early FF games manage to maintain a healthy blend of active, timed decision-making. While yeah, you can just mash A through a lot of the regular enemy battles, even those battles can be exciting when the game balance is good. It becomes a challenge of attrition to reach the next Save/Boss/Town. Particularly if you're under-leveled, every decision matters in a well-designed RPG. I've played plenty of strategy games where no two games were the same.

Though I would actually agree that RPG as a generic genre is inherently weak, since it merely describes a vague presence of narrative and progression, and really doesn't prescribe anything about the gameplay. As a result, it is defined as a genre in which no type of challenge is specified, and as a result of that, developers often seem to forget that THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT ONE IN. That's how you prevent the gameplay from being repetitive.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#9 Jan 07 2013 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked


I think they meant that the equations are being reworked, not the combat itself. The final combat system will very likely be more similar to its alpha state than different from it. That's really to be expected, though: how many times does one expect them to try and reinvent the game?


I think that's a huge assumption, but we'll know more when beta gets going I guess.
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#10 Jan 07 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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No matter how skillful or challenging you make it the battling is still going to become repetitive and boring. Once you get the hang of it I mean. A lot of people on this forum sight dark souls as being challenging. Once you get the hang of the gameplay though its all a lot of boring soul farming for upgrades.

Now multiply that by X number of years playing an MMO? I don't see what you're expecting them to do exactly.


I just think that after gaming for so long I kinda feel like I've seen it all before. 50 plus levels of dodging and parrying and timed strikes is all well and good I guess but if I'm out farming beehive chips I wanna be able to create insect genocide on an appropriately swift level

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 8:33pm by LebargeX
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#11 Jan 07 2013 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
I think they meant that the equations are being reworked, not the combat itself. The final combat system will very likely be more similar to its alpha state than different from it. That's really to be expected, though: how many times does one expect them to try and reinvent the game?


I think that's a huge assumption, but we'll know more when beta gets going I guess.


According to the new roadmap, combat is in the "rebalancing" stage. As I understand it, the term conveys a sense of tweaking and specific improvements as opposed to a radical reworking. By radical reworking, I mean a movement away from the standard macro-bar, global cooldown, regenerating resource consuming system that FFXIV and most MMORPGs currently use.

I think you're right that my use of "equations" was too specific, though (I had remembered the terminology incorrectly), as SE's balancing likely involves things like cooldown timers and MP/TP costs in addition to what I had said.
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#12 Jan 08 2013 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Final Fantasy XI was good.

...for its time. That time has long passed.

FFXI has very dated controls, dated interface, and they're going through a lot of limitations in order to keep things running. Not to mention when I was playing FFXI in its prime, there was a lot of waiting and a lot of time investment in order to get anything done. No thanks.



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 10:02pm by UltKnightGrover
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#13 Jan 08 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
...as SE's balancing likely involves things like cooldown timers and MP/TP costs in addition to what I had said.

This is the most likely of scenarios. I personally feel that combat isn't as busy as it could be, so that long GCD really irritates me.

People have been mentioning that the system is boring and repetitive, yet they refuse to remember FFXI's combat system where you literally waited until you got 100TP. The point is that it's possible to keep the current system while adjusting the GCD and giving independent cooldown.
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#14 Jan 08 2013 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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No matter how skillful or challenging you make it the battling is still going to become repetitive and boring. Once you get the hang of it I mean. A lot of people on this forum sight dark souls as being challenging. Once you get the hang of the gameplay though its all a lot of boring soul farming for upgrades.

Now multiply that by X number of years playing an MMO? I don't see what you're expecting them to do exactly.


I could hardly disagree more. If the challenge continues to escalate, it will never become entirely repetitive. As a couple of examples with PvE style content, look at Rock Band/Guitar Hero. Sure, there are different songs, but you're essentially hitting the same 5 buttons over and over. Look at the Smash Bros. Series. Each character only has ~20 moves, but even against high level computer opponents each battle presents unique challenges. Ever play a simple game of chess against the average computer program?

The problem is that they're following the paradigm of the "MMO" too closely and not borrowing from the hundreds of successful single player games which actually have decent gameplay. It's really not hard to imagine how the gameplay can be great if you don't limit yourself to comparing it to existing MMOs, which are notorious among critics for having incredibly lackluster gameplay design in contrast to single player games.

All that is not to mention things like changing classes. If nothing else, gameplay that is boring after 300 hours is much more desirable than gameplay that's boring after 30. If you don't even give your players an opportunity to get invested in their character, your game is doomed.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Jan 08 2013 at 4:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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kachi wrote:
The problem is that they're following the paradigm of the "MMO" too closely and not borrowing from the hundreds of successful single player games which actually have decent gameplay. It's really not hard to imagine how the gameplay can be great if you don't limit yourself to comparing it to existing MMOs, which are notorious among critics for having incredibly lackluster gameplay design in contrast to single player games.

All that is not to mention things like changing classes. If nothing else, gameplay that is boring after 300 hours is much more desirable than gameplay that's boring after 30. If you don't even give your players an opportunity to get invested in their character, your game is doomed.


Those things work in a single player game, it's just you against the computer. The concept behind a MMO should be the focus on group dynamics, not every man for themselves. Part of the challenge is that unknown of how the group will perform. The direction that MMOs are going today is mainly solo the boring parts and try to work together for end-game. If you want a solo game, go get your fill on single-player console games.

Also, the one thing I think most agree on about FFXI that SE got right was the fact you could change jobs. People that did play FFXI for any length of time got extremely attached to their characters because they could be diverse instead of one-trick ponies. The fact you didn't need to replay the entire game to play a different job was a huge bonus.
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#16 Jan 08 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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TurboTom wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
...as SE's balancing likely involves things like cooldown timers and MP/TP costs in addition to what I had said.

This is the most likely of scenarios. I personally feel that combat isn't as busy as it could be, so that long GCD really irritates me.

People have been mentioning that the system is boring and repetitive, yet they refuse to remember FFXI's combat system where you literally waited until you got 100TP. The point is that it's possible to keep the current system while adjusting the GCD and giving independent cooldown.


I think creating separate cool downs could be one of the things they're working on. I also think they're probably going to tweak the mob twitching that we see in that alpha video, I'm pretty sure that was universally disliked. Not a deal breaker for me, but would be nice.

One thing is for sure, ARR will probably look a lot different a year from launch, this team (Yoshi-P in particular) seems to be more than willing to try to tweak things to make the most people happy.
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#17 Jan 08 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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A big "problem" with MMO's now a day is the masses of DB/Info sites detailing everything in game on them, so anything you want to know is usually a short click away. I remember back in the late 90's playing Ultima Online and how great it was due to everything being unknown, new, to be explored etc. Then Stratics came along and I knew everything I needed to know.
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#18 Jan 08 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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You could just...you know..not look. Smiley: tongue
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#19 Jan 08 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Default
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


It's really not that much like WoW. I know this because I'm awesome. But seriously, it's not. It will be fun.
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#20 Jan 08 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Default
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^^^ Brings a great point, i made it a goal not to look at any combat information or lore when Wotlk came out... and i enjoyed the **** out of that expansion, because every encounter surprised me, and it felt new. Did not do that with Cata.... :( Damm it!
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#21 Jan 08 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Poubelle, what exactly are you basing that statement on?
#22 Jan 08 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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je355804 wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Koren F2P MMOs are about as opposite of WoW as you can get... so... it's like you're complaining that FFXIV is too big and too small in the same breath. And that's not even considering that you're also complaining that FFXIV is like FFXIV.

edit:::
... Nevermind. I give up.


Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:22pm by je355804


It's about time. Seriously, FFXI is still a game that you can play, right now. What's stopping you?
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#23 Jan 08 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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****, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.
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#24 Jan 08 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
****, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.


I've been considering booting it up while we wait, haha.
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#25 Jan 08 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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LebargeX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.


Exactly which RPGs or mmorpgs have you been playing where 90pct of the combat isn't repetitive. I keep seeing people make this comment and NOBODY making any real suggestions about how to fix it. I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked must represent the entire game after all.

ETA. If you don't like the combat in these types of games maybe you don't like these types of games?

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 7:29pm by LebargeX


All i ask is that they scale the mob difficulty in the open world similar to the way they did in XI. As for instancing, i guess that part can remain WoW-like with "elite" levels. I'm also hoping for some kind of balance here between open world exp parties versus group instancing. In other words, i would like to see a healthy combination of both, that way the social aspect of the MMO isnt compromised.

As for the battle system, hopefully there's a combo system to replace the skill chain & exp chain system that was in XI. Whether it is individual combos within each job's abilities, or with teamates, or maybe even both combined... Anything to enhance the team coordination or variation of playstyle is always welcome. I just dont want another mashing/spamming of skills like in WoW. Hopefully this time around, DPS's do more than just put up high numbers of dmg. Especially in the case of melee dps, I would like to see some sort of utility that can help the tank, healer, and range dps - depending on the situation of the battle. I'm just tired of seeing apples to apples when it comes to melee dps.
#26 Jan 08 2013 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Those things work in a single player game, it's just you against the computer. The concept behind a MMO should be the focus on group dynamics, not every man for themselves. Part of the challenge is that unknown of how the group will perform. The direction that MMOs are going today is mainly solo the boring parts and try to work together for end-game. If you want a solo game, go get your fill on single-player console games.


They work in multiplayer games too! Surely you haven't forgotten all the games with online co-op modes? ****, half the games I just listed are -multiplayer-!

Group dynamics are nice and MMOs as a whole tend to suck at them. But they also need not be the emphasis of an MMO. An MMO can be great without great group dynamics. The individual player experience is most important. The mechanics of good group dynamics are not even very sophisticated or unordinary anymore... they just tend to be poorly balanced.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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