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Letter from the Producer, XLIII (02/15/2013)Follow

#52 Feb 17 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
Wint wrote:
They're full of sh*t. There is no bacon shortage Smiley: smile


Who is this "They" you speak of? Smiley: sly
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#53 Feb 17 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I live in Nebraska, when that story broke we thought it was hilarious. I can get bacon at record low prices Smiley: smile
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#54 Feb 17 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Did somebody say Bacon Mage?

Edited, Feb 17th 2013 8:13pm by catwho
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#55 Feb 17 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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They, for IKickYoDog.
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#56 Feb 18 2013 at 1:37 AM Rating: Default
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I'd say this is true generally but not in XIV.

[img=203233]

Arms and waist are way too skinny. They creep me out.

I like my XI hume way better:

[img=202273]

Not fat, just healthy looking. I don't dig the anorexic look.


Your understanding of proportions are really off. As been discussed, that second picture is using an incorrect aspect ratio, I hope you didn't actually play the game that way. Tarutaru's must have been goofy looking dwarf-gnomes. Final Fantasy has always done a good job in mixing the Eastern art style with a more grounded real-life look.

As for the hips: There is actually that natural dip we all have which basically shows the "empty" space between our hips and our legs. And the way the femur connects to the hips makes the thighs protrude more from the top, which would make the top of your thighs thicker. I'm not sure what the rules about images are on this forum, so I won't post any, but you can see a good indication of the way the hips/thighs look here: http://www.sciencepicturecompany.com/images/1120/The-Skeletal-System-Female.html There's no nudity in the picture (its covered), but just in case, you probably don't want to click on it if you're at work.

I'm actually really impressed that FFXI had all of that. Hopefully I didn't break any rules for posting that link. >_>

As for Beta, yay. Unfortunately I missed out on achieving Legacy status by a month, so I'm in the pile of hopefuls waiting for that e-mail invite.

Edited, Feb 18th 2013 2:38am by DevilFruit
#57 Feb 18 2013 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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Aspect ratio is a bit off because I moved the window to get that screenie. Still. Don't look as undernourished.

Look, i think it is fine if people want to look like sticks, but I don't. All I am expressing is a hope that iff they offer boob sliders they also offer The option to choose a more buff body type. I don't think that is unreasonable. unless female character only exist to fufill some perfect stereotype guy fantasy and are not meant to appeal to girl gamers at all. Also, lots of asian women are not stick thin guys, way to stereotype.

Thayos you're right that not all dudes are muscle-ly... My point was that dudes at least can choose Roe if they want to look chunky, or the elvaan type if they want to look waifish... Or the highland hume if they want to look like hulk hogan.. Or a lowlands hume if they want to look semi-normal. All female races are overly skinny. I'd just like a choice.
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#58 Feb 18 2013 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
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Don't forget male mithras. Boys can even choose to go all Justin Bieber if they really want to.
#59 Feb 18 2013 at 2:54 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Don't forget male mithras. Boys can even choose to go all Justin Bieber if they really want to.


That too.

;)

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#60 Feb 18 2013 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Did somebody say Bacon Mage?

Edited, Feb 17th 2013 8:13pm by catwho


That was a fun thread. Goes to show how many job concepts are still on the table (though I found it funny in retrospect that job names like Gladiator and Marauder were used in XIV).

As I look back all these years later at the Mime concept I submitted, I can't help but feel that it's a shame I could never play it. I'm kind of surprised that I managed such a well-designed concept back then... that was before I really started to study player psychology. I actually still have the concept work for the Geist job I was going to submit too, but didn't get around to.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#61 Feb 18 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Aspect ratio is a bit off because I moved the window to get that screenie. Still. Don't look as undernourished.

Look, i think it is fine if people want to look like sticks, but I don't. All I am expressing is a hope that iff they offer boob sliders they also offer The option to choose a more buff body type. I don't think that is unreasonable. unless female character only exist to fufill some perfect stereotype guy fantasy and are not meant to appeal to girl gamers at all. Also, lots of asian women are not stick thin guys, way to stereotype.

Thayos you're right that not all dudes are muscle-ly... My point was that dudes at least can choose Roe if they want to look chunky, or the elvaan type if they want to look waifish... Or the highland hume if they want to look like hulk hogan.. Or a lowlands hume if they want to look semi-normal. All female races are overly skinny. I'd just like a choice.


The level of physical activity that our characters would go through wouldn't allow much room for fat on their bodies. It's why my gf loses weight during school semesters, and gains a few pounds during the summer. Your anti skinny bull **** is just as bad as people who are anti fat. You're both retarded, the anti skinny more so because they should know better. I'm tired of all the facebook pictures about how "REAL" women should look and they show a healthy woman with a nice figure. I happen to like girls with a bit of size. To go as far as to call a woman anorexic just because she doesn't meet your fat requirement is stupid. Quit pretending to be some kind of victim. You think guys with beer bellies get offended by the male leads in games and movies constantly having rock hard abs, and are super fit? The male physique in FFXIV is actually quite nice. They're not ripped but they are super toned. The same as the female. Do you know what a toned female looks like?

http://www.i-want-abs.com/images/female-six-pack.jpg

This is anorexic/undernorished

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/stoe0062/fall_2011%20psy%201001%20sec%2021/http:/fashion-victims-proyect.wikispaces.com/file/view/anorexia-y-bulimia.jpg/239325123/anorexia-y-bulimia.jpg/anorexia-y-bulimia.jpg

The toned picture I gave is the exact body type they offer us in game. Women have way less testosterone than men. They don't build muscle the way we do. If you want a more buff woman, female Roegadyn might be for you. I think it's laughable you think that picture of her they showed is skinny. She looks built!

Oh yea, she's a total stick figure....

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Roegadyn?file=FfXIV-roegadyn.jpg
#62 Feb 18 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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While I agree with your premise, you were really unnecessarily rude and hostile in that response. I would consider an apology.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Feb 18 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for your support. I'll pass, good sir. You (or they) can however, rate me down (if you haven't already), retort in with hostile words with an equally logical premise of your own. All of which are ok with me. Our actions sometimes are met with reactions that aren't always positive, or to our agreement. I'm ok with that. Respecting hyperbolic and disingenuous statements do nothing but encourage them. Calling fit women stick figures, and women that have a higher mass of body fat/muscle "normal" could also be considered rude no? I will admit that I WAS hostile. I won't deny my feelings/emotions because you tell me they weren't necessary. If my B.S. meter goes off, I'll listen to it.
#64 Feb 18 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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If you don't mind being thought less of, that's fine. It's the internet, afterall. But just because you have a feeling or reaction doesn't make it a good one. Unless you've your age is still in the single digits, I'm sure you're well aware that just because something upsets you doesn't make lashing out the correct course of action. And no, you're not alone in making statements that could have been worded better, nor are the arguments that were put against you infallible. But when people start slacking off on trying to be productive and positive members of a community just because nobody else handles themselves perfectly, the world goes to ****, doesn't it?

Compensatory ethics are the high mark of humanity. Strive to be better where others fail, and others will see and respect you as a virtuous person. Justify your own shortcomings instead, and neither will you grow, nor be respected.

If you hadn't bothered to look, I've really only agreed with your point. I couldn't bother to rate you one way or the other. I just thought it seemed like there might be a reasonable, respectable person somewhere behind the ranting. I'll still consider that perhaps I've merely put you on the defensive, rather than that I was wrong.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Feb 18 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I could have had perfect ethics and manners in other internet areas of thought and discussion. Maybe, I had a bad day and blew up at someone. Maybe I don't care because this is anonymous and I'd rather hide behind it for cowardly reasons. You will never know. Nothing you say to me insults me. If I sounded illogical, dishonest and whiny and someone called me on it, so be it. I don't think what you told me was wrong. It was your reaction to my reaction, and I respectfully agreed with it, but refused your advice. If YOU hadn't bothered to look past your sanctimony, I kindly thanked you for your support. Or was what I had to say irrelevant unless it was an apology? Disappointment abounds. I do not seek your approval good sir. I made an argument for which you showed support, and for that I am satisfied. Being demonized by you is secondary and I am also satisfied, because negativity usually follows in kind. I appreciate your honesty.
#66 Feb 18 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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You thought I was talking about my approval? I don't presume that anyone on the internet cares for my approval. I only attempted to appeal to your sense of self approval.

I am already holding myself to the highest standard that I can conceive of (at this moment; I certainly fail to meet my own standards regularly). I certainly have nothing to gain from this exchange. I just thought it might result in a more positive community, and I thought you might agree that you were not holding yourself to the highest standard you could conceive of. We all deviate from that standard... personally I believe apologies, though not always necessary are entitled, reflect a desire to adhere to that standard. I was just curious whether or not you had that desire.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 Feb 18 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I have yet to receive a response from my intended target. You intercepted, and here we are. While you haven't gained anything, I have. I don't recall our exchange being hostile. In fact, even though we don't agree, our exchange was relatively courteous. Something that is very rare on the internet. Just by being the person you are, I showed you the same respect you showed me. Your positive standards bear fruit. Perhaps your standard is too high for me to conceive. While I agree with many of your ideas, people's rudeness was never anything that wounded me greatly. Your initial reaction to my ideas reminded me of the phrase crying over spilled milk.(Oddly, my target was also doing the same, but in reality, milk wasn't even spilled.) While I do agree my argument was antagonistic in nature, I don't believe it was that serious. Are we in an age now of great political correctness where mildly harsh words offend? I mean you even attempted to insult me by using a tired cliche of hinting that my age is that of a child. That doesn't bother me, but once you start being sanctimonious, and attempt to lecture on rudeness, you might want to make sure you don't offend.(To be fair, you did mention you sometimes fall short) The high road is a narrow one, and it doesn't leave you much room. I rather hang with the regular folk and just accept things as humans present them, the positive and the negative. In other words, I enjoy the heat in the kitchen. I only speak when I feel that what I have to say is worthwhile. I enjoy my passion, it's that simple. You've shown me that you are reasonable and intelligent. Were my words a passionate rant? Or did I harbor great malice? I'm sure you're able to tell the difference. This was a good exchange of words. Your lecture, while appreciated, wasn't needed. I have standards of my own. Best of luck to you~

Edited, Feb 18th 2013 8:28pm by GDLYL
#68 Feb 18 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think my ideals are so lofty that perhaps suggesting that someone is "retarded", and their point is "stupid", and ********************* might be a bit of zeal that is best tempered with a simple, "Sorry, I was being a bit rude."

Obviously you felt justified in your rant, otherwise you wouldn't have made it. As for me, I'm perfectly comfortable holding myself and others to that standard. It's not a difficult one to achieve, if you choose to. At least I would like to think that my response would have been along the lines of , "You're right, I was unnecessarily rude and I apologize, but my point stands." But I'm quite accustomed to having this turned on me as an example of "self-righteousness," usually only highlighting how much easier it is for some people to point out the weaknesses of others than to humbly acknowledge their own. In my second reply, I was only trying to point out how others tend to view that. If you don't care about that, then I've said all I reasonably can, and I consider my civic duty done. But I certainly don't feel that it's sanctimonious of me to request conscientiously positive behavior of others when I see transgressions. With a background in education, it's a virtual necessity.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Feb 18 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
They're full of sh*t. There is no bacon shortage Smiley: smile

GODS BE PRAISED!!!!!
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#70 Feb 19 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi and GDLYL take it to Private Messages, Sheesh!
#71 Feb 19 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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GDLYL wrote:
Do you know what a toned female looks like?


They look like all sorts of things. Depends on the female and the body. Unlike you, I don't think that "healthy" and physically active only has one body type. Everyone is different. There are lots of chunky women who are very physically fit.

Look at my favourite Olympian, gold medal speed skater Christine Nesbitt.Those are "toned" legs. That's a toned body - an olympic medalist's body. That's what someone who is physically active and at the peak of their game looks like. Muscles are not skinny.

Screenshot


Also I don't know if you actually looked at the pic of my XIV char - but there isn't one bit of "tone" on her. Just skinny like sticks. No muscles.

Women also don't have gigantic busts and tiny little waists in real life, unless they pumped them full of silicone. Besides, explaining things from a game with "well in real life if people ran so much that's what they would look like" is asinine. This is a fantasy game. Cat people don't exist at all. If I want to look chunky in a game where everyone runs, so be it. I don't see why you are against having options. I'm fine if you want to make a creepy skinny female character with huge bazongas, but I want to make a character I can identify with, not one that fits your sexist stereotypes about what healthy/athletic/toned women look like.

Again, my main point is, I'll be incredibly disappointed if the devs put a boob slider in and don't offer other customization options, including the option to put meat on my character's bones. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that they offer more customization options meant to appeal to all types of gamers, (including, GASP, women) not just dudes who want to play big chested skinny women in games.

I can't understand why anyone would argue against allowing -more- customization. I'm certainly not arguing against the boob slider. I just want more control over how my char looks - and I don't want to be forced to be unnaturally skinny just cause I pick a female char.

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 10:09am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#72GDLYL, Posted: Feb 19 2013 at 1:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Actually the reason marathon runners are skinny is because the body does this amazing thing where it tries to make things easier for us. Even if a person had 50 pounds of muscle, the body would lower it's mass so you have an easier time running. (so you're not carrying around all that weight) So that argument isn't as asinine as you deceptively suggest. You're the one that brought up reality and sexism. Don't try to pull the "it's not real life" card now, and cat girls don't exist. YOU are the one who's brought up what isn't real and natural. Your dishonesty is annoying. That woman in the picture has an awesome body. You know what body type she looks like? A female Roegadyn just like that concept art I showed. I noticed you didn't address all of my points, just like I figured. I'll go as far as assuming that because you need more leg muscle to skate and your body/joints don't need to worry about the physical stress because the ice carries you due to lack of friction, her body type is most likely a reflection of that. (Her very awesome leg muscles)
#73 Feb 19 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Denise Milani has had breast augmentation surgery, as well as a bit of other sculpting done. She's a poor example.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#74GDLYL, Posted: Feb 19 2013 at 1:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Feel free to post a link.
#75 Feb 19 2013 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
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It only took me a min to find a forum showing her before and after and those boobs look like they sure grew. I can admit to that

http://www.need2speed.com/vb_forums/showthread.php?t=62762

Her natural ******* while smaller than her overly large ones now are still nothing to scoff at. Still proving that a woman with a small frame can still have relatively large bust size. I'm not here as a Denise Milani advocate. I'm a "Square-Enix doesn't have out of this world bust size to go along with the female body," advocate. Nit pick at what ever you like. My opposition, in my opinion, is crying wolf. Claiming sexism where there is none. Which is my argument.
#76 Feb 19 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#77 Feb 19 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


As a man who has no experience with that, I'll take your word for it. I agree with you. Even coliseum gear was a bit unrealistic for the females and had no battle purposes :o. For someone with your disposition, it would be very uncomfortable indeed.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/50558-New-coliseum-gear-too-lewd/page36

I do hope they don't go the whole overly skimpy route. Skimpy is fine in moderation :) To be fair, the male coliseum gear was equally skimpy. Though they didn't have mammaries to worry about during combat roles.
#78 Feb 19 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.
#79 Feb 19 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.


Exactly. It's a far cry from misogyny in other games. I played Tera for a bit, and boy that was very skimpy. Feel free to cry sexism there. I think that S-E is trying to pander to some of the audiences in that game type without completely going there. Like... nude art vs vulgar nude cam shows. Hard to please everyone, but they are probably going to stick to their standards and culture when making video games.
#80 Feb 19 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah XIV 1.0 was pretty bad - I mean Uldah had a main character walking around in lacy underwear all the time. I kept shouting at her to put on some **** pants.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#81 Feb 19 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.


For the record, I don't think that **** is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#82 Feb 19 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
For the record, I don't think that **** is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.


One of the annoyances I had with 1.0 was the small limit to the number of characters that could appear around you and the time it took to load in new ones once those 40 slots were up. I could literally stand in the Gridania Inn for 2 minutes before the innkeeper would appear and let me in my own room.

I know this is one area they were trying to address with some of the official alpha photos the developers took where they tried to cram as many people in the same place at once. Part of the reason they are getting rid of visible equipment like belts is so that they can improve this performance.

What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times. That's why body types are fairly static except for a few tweaks on the face, and I guess, now boobs. I suppose the different races are the way they try to accommodate different body types rather than use a single race that can be customized out in every direction.

But I can empathize that this won't meet with everyone's ideal expectations, especially in a gaming world full of elaborate character generators.
#83 Feb 19 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.


For the record, I don't think that **** is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.



One can respect that. I hope we can all receive a small portion of the things we want in game.
#84 Feb 19 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
For the record, I don't think that **** is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.


One of the annoyances I had with 1.0 was the small limit to the number of characters that could appear around you and the time it took to load in new ones once those 40 slots were up. I could literally stand in the Gridania Inn for 2 minutes before the innkeeper would appear and let me in my own room.

I know this is one area they were trying to address with some of the official alpha photos the developers took where they tried to cram as many people in the same place at once. Part of the reason they are getting rid of visible equipment like belts is so that they can improve this performance.

What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times. That's why body types are fairly static except for a few tweaks on the face, and I guess, now boobs. I suppose the different races are the way they try to accommodate different body types rather than use a single race that can be customized out in every direction.

But I can empathize that this won't meet with everyone's ideal expectations, especially in a gaming world full of elaborate character generators.


True, most of the extensive character creators are from single player games that don't have that concern.
#85 Feb 19 2013 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
For the record, I don't think that **** is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.


One of the annoyances I had with 1.0 was the small limit to the number of characters that could appear around you and the time it took to load in new ones once those 40 slots were up. I could literally stand in the Gridania Inn for 2 minutes before the innkeeper would appear and let me in my own room.

I know this is one area they were trying to address with some of the official alpha photos the developers took where they tried to cram as many people in the same place at once. Part of the reason they are getting rid of visible equipment like belts is so that they can improve this performance.

What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times. That's why body types are fairly static except for a few tweaks on the face, and I guess, now boobs. I suppose the different races are the way they try to accommodate different body types rather than use a single race that can be customized out in every direction.

But I can empathize that this won't meet with everyone's ideal expectations, especially in a gaming world full of elaborate character generators.


True, most of the extensive character creators are from single player games that don't have that concern.


I don't think so. Lots of other games offer more robust character creation menus than XIV did. It may be a combination of customization and high resolutions (players keeping their settings high) that's the problem, in which case my preference would be for more customization. From their side of things, their graphics are more future-proofed, which makes good business sense in the MMO market. But it does contribute to the question of, "Will there even be a future for FFXIV?"

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 2:29pm by Kachi
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#86 Feb 19 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Lots of other games such as? I've tried the popular ones, and I can't really see a major difference in the options the same way single player games show. Like cheek size, jaw size, nose ridge etc. I wouldn't say that an MMO with that level of options doesn't exist, and I also wouldn't say lots. I do however see the new elder scrolls MMO having that level, simply because they have made a name for themselves by giving the players full access to character creation. Will it be the same as their single player counter part? Time will tell.
#87 Feb 19 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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GW2 and SWTOR off the top of my head. The problem with XIV was that it started with too few base options, didn't differentiate between them enough, made enough of them flat-out undesirable, and didn't give you much slider control. So while perhaps in theory you had almost as many options as other games, the amount of noticeable and desirable differences you could make were often barely discernible.

I vividly recall almost more than anything else how much disappointment there was across the board about the XIV character customization options.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#88 Feb 19 2013 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea, I think people had the same issues with FFXI as well if I recall. Seeing as 2.0 will have sliders etc, or so I hear, It might please a few people.
#89 Feb 19 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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They did. That was probably responsible for a good 50% of the use of the term "PS2 limitations".
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#90Ishihara, Posted: Feb 20 2013 at 4:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Omg, of course your not the only one, have you seen any of my post? The ones were I get bashed for loving the things you mentioned and hoping that SE would keep that mold instead of catering to the masses. They make a mil plus from FFXI, update the looks, and some new features but keep the base, BUT like you, I don't see any other MMO out there gets my coin. I was excited for PSO2, but that was a major disappointment for me at least, would've been the only game that competed... time wise at least.
#91 Feb 20 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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@Xoie
Quote:
What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times.


That´s something I never fully understood. The way I *presume* (mind you, I´m not an expert!) it works is that every character model is internally represented as a multidimensional vector, with each number in the vector representing a specific configuration for the corresponding asset. E.g., 1/3/2 would mean "hair type 1, face type 3, body type 2". If so, the loading times for characters in a large crowd would indeed increase in a linear fashion with the number of available customization options for each asset. (e.g., in comparison to loading times with no customization options at all, loading times with 15, 7, and 3 options for hair, face, and body type, respectively, would roughly increase 15+7+3=25-fold.

However, this layman assessment of mine is based on the (possibly simplistic) assumption that each asset actually exists as a complete, fixed entity somewhere in the database. However, if this would be the case, each individual assets would, once again, be defined by a number of mesh nodes and their spacial relation to each other.

And here it gets interesting.

If I am right and each asset is, on the most basic level, again made up of data detailing the spacial relation of mesh nodes, then the question arises what computational impact the possibility to directly customize the spacial relation of mesh nodes (via sliders) during character creation would really have. As the respective basic-level data (the spacial relation of mesh nodes of an asset) will have to be loaded during the rendering process anyway...?

In short: anybody able to enlighten me why SE does not allow for a fluid customization of body features, and uses a fixed-block "lego" approach to character creation instead? Anyone understand the question?

#92 Feb 20 2013 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Because I hated how my character looked almost exactly like one of the main characters of the Ul´Dah Storyline. Very confusing during cutscenes.
#93Ishihara, Posted: Feb 20 2013 at 5:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When I see post like these, my philopolemicism comes out!
#94 Feb 20 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
@Xoie
Quote:
What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times.


That´s something I never fully understood. The way I *presume* (mind you, I´m not an expert!) it works is that every character model is internally represented as a multidimensional vector, with each number in the vector representing a specific configuration for the corresponding asset. E.g., 1/3/2 would mean "hair type 1, face type 3, body type 2". If so, the loading times for characters in a large crowd would indeed increase in a linear fashion with the number of available customization options for each asset. (e.g., in comparison to loading times with no customization options at all, loading times with 15, 7, and 3 options for hair, face, and body type, respectively, would roughly increase 15+7+3=25-fold.

However, this layman assessment of mine is based on the (possibly simplistic) assumption that each asset actually exists as a complete, fixed entity somewhere in the database. However, if this would be the case, each individual assets would, once again, be defined by a number of mesh nodes and their spacial relation to each other.

And here it gets interesting.

If I am right and each asset is, on the most basic level, again made up of data detailing the spacial relation of mesh nodes, then the question arises what computational impact the possibility to directly customize the spacial relation of mesh nodes (via sliders) during character creation would really have. As the respective basic-level data (the spacial relation of mesh nodes of an asset) will have to be loaded during the rendering process anyway...?

In short: anybody able to enlighten me why SE does not allow for a fluid customization of body features, and uses a fixed-block "lego" approach to character creation instead? Anyone understand the question?



Rinsui wrote:
@Xoie
Quote:
What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times.


That´s something I never fully understood. The way I *presume* (mind you, I´m not an expert!) it works is that every character model is internally represented as a multidimensional vector, with each number in the vector representing a specific configuration for the corresponding asset. E.g., 1/3/2 would mean "hair type 1, face type 3, body type 2". If so, the loading times for characters in a large crowd would indeed increase in a linear fashion with the number of available customization options for each asset. (e.g., in comparison to loading times with no customization options at all, loading times with 15, 7, and 3 options for hair, face, and body type, respectively, would roughly increase 15+7+3=25-fold.

However, this layman assessment of mine is based on the (possibly simplistic) assumption that each asset actually exists as a complete, fixed entity somewhere in the database. However, if this would be the case, each individual assets would, once again, be defined by a number of mesh nodes and their spacial relation to each other.

And here it gets interesting.

If I am right and each asset is, on the most basic level, again made up of data detailing the spacial relation of mesh nodes, then the question arises what computational impact the possibility to directly customize the spacial relation of mesh nodes (via sliders) during character creation would really have. As the respective basic-level data (the spacial relation of mesh nodes of an asset) will have to be loaded during the rendering process anyway...?

In short: anybody able to enlighten me why SE does not allow for a fluid customization of body features, and uses a fixed-block "lego" approach to character creation instead? Anyone understand the question?



Don't quote me on this because I could be wrong, but I thought the Character Creator for 2.0 was going to have sliders?
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#95 Feb 20 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Don't quote me on this because I could be wrong, but I thought the Character Creator for 2.0 was going to have sliders?

Yah, well,... the character creator for the alpha version... I mean, the one presented in the corresponding preview here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR7ZfIyuHp0, of course, certainly didn't. At least no continuous ones. But! There are a few more options possible already; for example, you can now select from 4 face types (as in 1.0), but those face types are then additionally qualified by different outlines (hollowness of the cheeks), eyeforms, and so on so there's already a broader variation than in 1.0.

My question was more of a theoretical nature: what computational benefit is there to locking players to a combination of fixed templates instead of allowing them to directly influence the distance parameters of the basic meshes?
#96 Feb 20 2013 at 9:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Or is it just a safeguard against this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk-lSqghJ4U ?

...still, I must say, I would *still* like to see a few original and "strange" characters now and then. I mean, in real life there are also quite a few people you see in the subway that make you go "wtf... the gods sure have a sick sense of humor...". I mean, there's only so many white-haired Miq'ote neechans and emo-Sephiroth-clones you can take per day...
#97 Feb 20 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Lol, I appreciate the pitch black characters I see people running around with. There is a highlander in my LS we cal "paper bag," and he owns it as his nick name. I know the feel. The same with names. Only so many Uchihas I can take lol.
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