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exaggerating how much is changed?Follow

#1 Feb 19 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Default
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does anyone else think they're exaggerating how much is actually different in ARR? people keep saying/it's being advertised as "rebuilt from the ground up" when it really isn't.
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#2 Feb 19 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm just going bookmark this for a future reply. Don't mind me.
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#3 Feb 19 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd guess that depends on how you define "from the ground up." It seems to me like most things were changed pretty significantly... not necessarily changed into something marvelous, but at least something different. I expect the layout of the starting nations to be the same, NPC assets (and probably some of their speech), and I don't expect a significant reform of the guildleves. I expect the combat system to be different though not especially inventive or exciting.

The game can be rebuilt from the ground up and still look very much like every other mediocre MMO launch from the last few years.
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#4 Feb 19 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with Kaichi. This isn't 1.0 with a new engine. *That's what I was hoping for :(* Oh well. It's completely different. The feel and the look and the in game mechanics have all changed. The only thing that remains the same is the art, lore, and the basic fundamentals that make it a Final Fantasy mmo. It isn't the same game. It isn't an exaggeration. Even the jobs have changed. From what I've seen from the game play videos they posted :o

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 3:20pm by GDLYL

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 3:30pm by GDLYL
#5 Feb 19 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
I'm just going bookmark this for a future reply. Don't mind me.


Just bookmark? You sure you don't want to deal more forcefully with this obvious NDA-breaker? Smiley: rolleyes
#6 Feb 19 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
Wint wrote:
I'm just going bookmark this for a future reply. Don't mind me.


Just bookmark? You sure you don't want to deal more forcefully with this obvious NDA-breaker? Smiley: rolleyes


I didn't think he had broken the NDA Smiley: confused
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#7 Feb 19 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's just trying to bait others into breaking it! Smiley: lol

As in, the only ones that can confirm or deny at this point time were the ones who were in alpha, and they can't say they were in alpha til phase 3 beta, if ever.
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#8 Feb 19 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ahhhhh I see now, herp Smiley: blush
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#9 Feb 19 2013 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Wint wrote:
I'm just going bookmark this for a future reply. Don't mind me.


Just bookmark? You sure you don't want to deal more forcefully with this obvious NDA-breaker? Smiley: rolleyes


I didn't think he had broken the NDA Smiley: confused


*elbows Wint in the gut*

I mean, Poubelle wouldn't make such an assertive claim that the game is exactly the same as always without first hand experience in the beta, would he?
#10 Feb 19 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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The beta hasn't even started yet though right? Put down the pitch forks :O

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 3:31pm by GDLYL
#11 Feb 19 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Poubelle wrote:
does anyone else think they're exaggerating how much is actually different in ARR? people keep saying/it's being advertised as "rebuilt from the ground up" when it really isn't.


Nope, I don't think it's exaggerated at all. Anyone with actual knowledge of this can't really comment.

A new engine, i.e. the framework for which all the rest of the game sits, could be considered the foundation, which is in the ground. This would imply they not only didn't exaggerate, but under-stated.
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#12 Feb 19 2013 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Based on what we saw in the alpha videos, though, it is very different. The only thing I recognized in Gridania was the inn, and The Black Shroud was so different I would never have believed they were the "same" game.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#13 Feb 19 2013 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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All I can say with certainty is that are putting a lot of their faith in the current playerbase to change the image of the game when it comes out. A gaming conference here and there will help, but ultimately there will need to be a LOT of players singing this game's praises to recapture a sufficient subscriber base.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Feb 19 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
All I can say with certainty is that are putting a lot of their faith in the current playerbase to change the image of the game when it comes out. A gaming conference here and there will help, but ultimately there will need to be a LOT of players singing this game's praises to recapture a sufficient subscriber base.


I hear what you're saying... but I think Final Fantasy Online games break the mold a little. Time will tell, of course, but I recall being very excited whenever a Final Fantasy came out because they took years to make and they were (usually) pretty fun when they did show up in the store. So during those long waits, you might play your old Final Fantasy games again while you wished for a new one, but it just wasn't the same.

So in comes FFXI... a Final Fantasy that is constantly being developed with new things to do arriving all the time, plus, you also get to play with other Final Fantasy fans who like the same games you do at the same time. And thus, a terrible addiction was born. Smiley: nod

So I think FFXIV's saving grace isn't going to be that it's the most popular MMO on the block. It will be that it's a Final Fantasy game that fills in the void of waiting for that next Final Fantasy game to come around in a constantly developed Final Fantasy world filled with the company of like-minded companions. Or something like that. Smiley: lol
#15 Feb 19 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I hear what you're saying... but I think Final Fantasy Online games break the mold a little. Time will tell, of course, but I recall being very excited whenever a Final Fantasy came out because they took years to make and they were (usually) pretty fun when they did show up in the store. So during those long waits, you might play your old Final Fantasy games again while you wished for a new one, but it just wasn't the same.


People had huge hopes for SWTOR as well. SE's clout has only been waning in recent years, but Bioware was maintaining a large, loyal following of players. Combine with that the Star Wars IP, another instant money maker, and the biggest MMO budget on record, and SWTOR was SURE(!!!) to be a huge success! Bethesda is about to make a similar mistake with their Elder Scrolls MMO, which is set up to be a disaster.

Yeah, you'll have some players who are nostalgic, rosey-eyed die-hards, but they won't keep your game alive. In the end, it comes down to gameplay design. It's either really fun, or it's less fun than the competitors. FFXI was for many groups of players the best available game of its time (console NA base, almost the entire JP base, and better than it's chief competitor, Everquest for the NA PC base). That's why it got away with having such mediocre gameplay. It won't get another pass, no matter how much anyone wants it to succeed.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Feb 19 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
People had huge hopes for SWTOR as well. SE's clout has only been waning in recent years, but Bioware was maintaining a large, loyal following of players. Combine with that the Star Wars IP, another instant money maker, and the biggest MMO budget on record, and SWTOR was SURE(!!!) to be a huge success! Bethesda is about to make a similar mistake with their Elder Scrolls MMO, which is set up to be a disaster.

Yeah, you'll have some players who are nostalgic, rosey-eyed die-hards, but they won't keep your game alive. In the end, it comes down to gameplay design. It's either really fun, or it's less fun than the competitors. FFXI was for many groups of players the best available game of its time (console NA base, almost the entire JP base, and better than it's chief competitor, Everquest for the NA PC base). That's why it got away with having such mediocre gameplay. It won't get another pass, no matter how much anyone wants it to succeed.


Thing with SWTOR is that there isn't a progressive series of Star Wars video games made by the same developers that brings the same loyal fans back for more each time. Yes, Star Wars does have a rabid fan base, which is good, but the world of movies and the world of video games seldom work together in harmony (as many failed movie-into-video-games and video-games-into-movies have shown).

LOTR and AoC both have loyal followings in prose and comics as well as the big screen, but they haven't been met with success in MMO-dom as much as it would seem like a no-brainer at first blush.

SE met success in FFXI because it was a continuation of a popular video game series to begin with, so it scratches an itch that its followers already had. I think WoW also capitalizes on this as well on the heels of the Warcraft series, but also the way it borrows elements of Diablo, and the renowned quality that Blizzard had, to their credit, delivered in their previous titles.

These guys already know how to hit their gamers right in the sweet spot in a way a movie or novel franchise has yet to figure out.

That's why I think the Elder Scrolls MMO has a good chance of success as long as it connects with its fans who know and love the Elder Scrolls series as video games in the first place.

FFXIV was bad not because it was a Final Fantasy game, but because its standards for quality was far too low to be passable in this day and age of gaming. They simply hadn't done their research and ignored the overwhelming crowd who had. But given another chance to fix these problems, I think it will turn out okay. I believe there will be enough fans left who still want that itch scratched to make it work.

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 7:33pm by Xoie
#17 Feb 19 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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You could be right; I could be underestimating just how powerfully players identify with the series, the nostalgia, etc... Only time will tell, but I don't think I'm wrong. People still play FFXI and WoW because the playerbases became invested in them when there was no significant competitor to contend with. If your assertion were correct, you'd find a lot of FF fans picking up FFXI again and sticking with it. But you won't find them, because they won't settle for an average game experience just because they wish they were playing FFXV. What you're saying probably works just fine for a console release, but when you're counting on subscribers who will be playing for years, you're well beyond "scratching an itch." Your game has to be FUN. Loyalty and fanboyism just don't go very far in the MMO genre anymore.

Those games that failed did some things right, but they ultimately still had large design flaws. Bioware has a fiercely loyal fanbase, probably moreso in the US than SE does today (scratch that: used to, before Mass Effect 3). The problem wasn't that it was Star Wars, or Bioware... it was this: SWTOR was too easy. It was boring. And FFXIV is shaping up to own the same problems.

And short of nailing the game balance, Elder Scrolls stands virtually no chance at being a success. Their plan is basically to make the same MMO as every other MMO, with an Elder Scrolls skin. So unless they execute this tired concept with such exceptional, surgical skill as no other developer has ever done, their fans will be leaving in droves.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Feb 19 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
And short of nailing the game balance, Elder Scrolls stands virtually no chance at being a success. Their plan is basically to make the same MMO as every other MMO, with an Elder Scrolls skin. So unless they execute this tired concept with such exceptional, surgical skill as no other developer has ever done, their fans will be leaving in droves.


I'll have to wager a plate of cookies that fans will make a derivative MMO based on a video game series a success than it will fail because it wasn't innovative enough. I may end up with two plates of cookies this way, but it's worth the risk.

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 8:09pm by Xoie
#19 Feb 19 2013 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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SWTOR failed for the same reason XIV 1.0 did. It was released before it was ready.

Unlike SE, EA did not see fit to try to make things right. Hence, F2P land....
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#20 Feb 19 2013 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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wait, are people seriously claiming that SWTOR somehow failed harder than FFXIV?
#21 Feb 19 2013 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:
wait, are people seriously claiming that SWTOR somehow failed harder than FFXIV?


It did. It really did. They even had KoTR to build on and still screwed it up somehow. Everytime "failing" comes up people love to seem to say "XIV failed worst!"...well XIV failed for a different reason but SWTOR failed when it SHOULDN'T have failed. An IP more powerful and well covered like SW especially in the west where people willingly buy the same movies 8 times over you tell me...

Which failed harder in retrospect?

Fyi: SWTOR also had higher hype ad a company known for doing certain things very well backing it over FFXIV since people love to hate on XI despite SE coming out and saying it's the most successful FF title next to VII.



Edited, Feb 19th 2013 8:23pm by Theonehio
#22 Feb 20 2013 at 12:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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SWTOR was certainly the more expensive disaster. Though I'm not sure what the cumulative cost of running FFXIV for free for so long was.

SWTOR's biggest problem was that they put all their effort into the leveling progression and the class stories (which were superb btw), and no effort at all into endgame which is where the majority of time spent in an MMO takes place. There were other problems with the game, but this was the biggest and by far the most damaging. You could level to cap and complete your story within a month and have just enough time left over in your one month of subscription time to realize that the game completely changes at endgame and ceases to be in any way enjoyable when compared to what you just did.

Also... "free to play" is quite a generous label to place on it at this point. It is, by a wide margin, the worst free to play model I've ever seen. Seriously, when you're charging people for hotbars, you've done it wrong.
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#23 Feb 20 2013 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
And short of nailing the game balance, Elder Scrolls stands virtually no chance at being a success. Their plan is basically to make the same MMO as every other MMO, with an Elder Scrolls skin. So unless they execute this tired concept with such exceptional, surgical skill as no other developer has ever done, their fans will be leaving in droves.


I'll have to wager a plate of cookies that fans will make a derivative MMO based on a video game series a success than it will fail because it wasn't innovative enough. I may end up with two plates of cookies this way, but it's worth the risk.

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 8:09pm by Xoie


I will retract judgment on Elder Scrolls for the time being. I recently learned that they are including some action elements in the combat, which will at least ensure that there is some measure of skill involved. If they can actually manage to balance progressive challenges within that, the game could manage to be fun. But if that doesn't pan out, I will bet you a hundred plates of cookies that it's a bust. Seriously, just give me the address to ship to.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#24 Feb 20 2013 at 3:49 AM Rating: Default
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FFXI was for many groups of players the best available game of its time (console NA base, almost the entire JP base, and better than it's chief competitor, Everquest for the NA PC base). That's why it got away with having such mediocre game play. It won't get another pass, no matter how much anyone wants it to succeed.


Can't wait to finish reading the thread to ask this question...

...what exactly do you think competes with FFXIV "today"(IMO what competes with FFXI...lol)? Putting my opinion aside and many of my friends and fellow FFMMO players, I've read many negative responses towards "other modern" MMOs".

Two part question! And to be more specific...

Quote:
console NA base


What NA console based MMO will compete with XIV?

Only NA b/c in Japan DQO is doing well, but since the NA crowd can't stand that its an MMO, the ? only applies to the NA market.

I ask, because as a few know, people like me, are dependent on XIV to be a great game, b/c IMO no other MMO out there competes with anything SE has done. Maybe you know of a game I don't, I've tried a few, but nothing's done it.

This could kill my post, but I AM looking forward to trying ESO.



Edited, Feb 20th 2013 4:52am by Ishihara
#25 Feb 20 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Thing with SWTOR is that there isn't a progressive series of Star Wars video games made by the same developers that brings the same loyal fans back for more each time.


Not sure that I would agree that XI or XIV draw from the same gamers that play the single player offline titles. While the games may be similar in lore, style and story; the similarities stop there for most people. I had many friends who loved the offline FF titles who looked at me sideways when I presented XI to them years ago.

I'd like to believe that XIV will actually go through the(sorely needed) change large enough to live up to the 'reborn' tag that it's being given, but I'm not sure that is possible. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the whole thing will be scrapped just yet, but I don't think they'll be able to offer the same amount of support that other games have made people accustomed to without the subscriber support.

There is only so long that throwing money at XIV for the sake of your franchise's future can be considered acceptable, especially when most people have already either forgiven or forgotten about it.





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#26 Feb 20 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
SWTOR was certainly the more expensive disaster. Though I'm not sure what the cumulative cost of running FFXIV for free for so long was.

SWTOR's biggest problem was that they put all their effort into the leveling progression and the class stories (which were superb btw).


Im sorry to disagree but I couldnt believe how corny/badly done many of the dialogue and character actions were during the storyline element of the game. Everytime they say something its followed by a corny hand gesture and atleast 3/4 of the lines I heard were awkward/lame/poorly done. I thought it was incredibly dissapointing given the fact they poured the majority of the games money into voice acting/dialogue scenes. Usually when you click an option for your character to respond he ends up saying something stupid which doesnt even match the response I chose. Gotta call people out when they claim the stories in the game were still great, I found them incredibly corny with a small percent of good parts during key moments. Id say Swotor failed harder than XIV and I think 14's launch was horrible too.

edit- example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDX8pJhglnA


Edited, Feb 20th 2013 9:02am by aadrenry
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