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A Realm Reborn: A Look AheadFollow

#1 Feb 21 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Enjoy!

http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=31884
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#2 Feb 21 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the information. I'm really looking forward to this!

I've had high hopes for this game since day one but was a bit let down by the first release. However, I've been very impressed by the work done to improve Version 1. Here's hoping that ARR will live up to the expectations I had back in 2010!
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#3 Feb 21 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Was that a moogle animation for a notification of getting mail (like the pigeons in GW2)?! That was awesome! Everything else looked amazing too...
#4 Feb 21 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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I umm.. just wooooooow... That was just beyond anything I had hoped for when it comes to graphics and how cosy, alive and interesting the world looks now. This is something I really want to explore (Unlike 1.0).

I mean I am a bit concerned about FATE completely replacing NM/HNM, especially since he says they should be worth the fight and I interpret that as give good rewards. I mean I really really wonder how they are going to make Behemoth very challenging when we could potentially get the whole server (exaggeration of course) fighting it. And even if they manage that, how to make it an enjoyable fight instead of a zergfest and even then... how do they give out rewards and how do they make sure the rewards aren't trivialized by everyone having them?

Other than that... just wow. Thanks for the writeup Wint, gj and hope you had fun, it seems like it.
#5 Feb 21 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I mean I am a bit concerned about FATE completely replacing NM/HNM


I am concerned about this too. I know at least one person who won't play if he can't compete against others to hunt down elite NMs.

As for me, though, I've never been much of a monster hunter. This game is looking fantastic, and Yoshi-P has earned himself a rest before beta starts.
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#6 Feb 21 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I got to participate in a FATE event near Camp Tranquil. It was fun but I was able to solo it so not that difficult. I imagine Behemoth will be another story all together. If HNM's are the only thing keeping him away then I would agree that this is probably not his kind of game. Perhaps they'll have rare FATE's so that things like King Behemoth will spawn then.
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#7 Feb 21 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I got to participate in a FATE event near Camp Tranquil. It was fun but I was able to solo it so not that difficult. I imagine Behemoth will be another story all together. If HNM's are the only thing keeping him away then I would agree that this is probably not his kind of game. Perhaps they'll have rare FATE's so that things like King Behemoth will spawn then.
I hope you're right about them getting much tougher later on... was extremely sad when I saw you say that you could solo one (even if it was lower level). Granted, I wont care one bit if there's tons of other things to kill that require full parties. I was a big fan of world NMs too...was extremely disappointed XIV never added more than they did and was just as disappointed when they went from epic battles in 15 man parties to near effortless after the switch to 8 man groups. I can't wait for launch. ><;

Wint wrote:
No they are planning 5-7 different kinds per zone I believe, and they will range from easy to everyone in the zone omg we need you kind of things. Of course the giant ones will have the best drops.


*Puts the xanax back in the medicine cabinet*

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 1:06pm by scorleone
#8 Feb 21 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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No they are planning 5-7 different kinds per zone I believe, and they will range from easy to everyone in the zone omg we need you kind of things. Of course the giant ones will have the best drops.
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#9 Feb 21 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
No they are planning 5-7 different kinds per zone I believe, and they will range from easy to everyone in the zone omg we need you kind of things. Of course the giant ones will have the best drops.


Did they talk any about how loot will be distributed and how they will balance the dfficulty of higher level FATEs? Going back to my previous post I am not sure how they will be able to get a huge amount of people on one mob and still make it mechanically interesting instead of a complete zerg, not to mention what if there are not enough people in the area? The only real option I see (in my not very creative mind lol) is balancing the mobs difficutly based on people fighting it, otherwise it feels like it would either be impossible or too easy depending on how many players you have. And like I said how will loot not be trivialized if everyone gets loot, is it based on performance (Never thought this worked out very well in previous games where a system like this was used)?

Don't get me wrong, I think FATEs look fun, but I am a little worried and I am not sure why they chose to go with only FATEs instead of a little bit of both worlds. We will see soon enough I guess, but I am so hyped after all this info I want it all now lol

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 1:14pm by Belcrono
#10 Feb 21 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Loot is awarded to each person individually, and is based somehow on participation. If you are too high of a level for a FATE then you will get nothing when it's over. I'm not sure if that leaves the system open to abuse (higher levels doing lower level FATE's etc) but I'm confident they'll get the details worked out.

One thing was clear, they are listening to everyone this time around and I am fully confident that if an idea has merit and can be implemented, it will.
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#11 Feb 21 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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boo no NMs... i liked the "mystery" of killing mobs then all of a sudden a new mob with a weird name popped up.. even if it dropped nothing good it was still a surprise...

and ho would you get l33t gear from fates? I mean lets say 200ppl are fighting behemoth.. surely everyone isnt gonna have their own individual drop pool.. I mean that worked in places like dynamis because you started as a team and entered as a team and there were restriction... if fates are in the open world whats to stop a level 1 from getting uber high end gear lol
#12 Feb 21 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's based on participation. If you are too low or too high you get squat. Yes everyone has their own loot.
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#13 Feb 21 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Wow. They did an incredible job with the little time they had.

I think that they should bring back all the old NMs like Leaping Lizzy etc and have them on a 30 min spawn time or something. They don't have to drop epic items, but perhaps gear that looks awesome that can replace the look of your current armor. WoW did this with Transmogrification and it's really fun. Just bring them back for the nostalgia, some people really liked camping NMs. It's one of my fondest memories and I even made some lasting friendships in game during camping competitions.

The music is hugely improved in some areas. The game just has a much more Final Fantasy feel, even more so than FF11 in some ways. I can't wait to see the Golden Saucer and other throwbacks that Yoshida mentioned. If this game can shape up to be a big enough challenge and yet still fun when we're short on time, this could be my new MMO for quite a while. I'm feeling a little bit excited.

Since the game is built with and for PC primarily, they should be able to port this over and optimize it for PS4 whenever it's released right?

SE really needs to have some kind of content for a select few though. If there is plenty to do for casual players such as FATE, low man dungeons, PvP, etc. , there should also be some kind of hard mode raids and HNMs that can clean your clock up for claim. It promotes healthy competition between Linkshells and keeps the prestige in the community alive. The only people who complain about it are people who feel entitled to everything and probably have the same attitude in their jobs and lives outside of the game. I won't even have time to attain that status in game most likely, but I'd really like to see it brought back.

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 1:37pm by Transmigration
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#14 Feb 21 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the fate system sounds cool, Almost like a battle in campaign.
Never too much a fan of nm's , never had the time to camp something for days just to have someone just happen by when the NM spawned and steal it.

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 1:33pm by Nashred
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#15 Feb 21 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Wow. They did an incredible job with the little time they had.

I think that they should bring back all the old NMs like Leaping Lizzy etc and have them on a 30 min spawn time or something. They don't have to drop epic items, but perhaps gear that looks awesome that can replace the look of your current armor. WoW did this with Transmogrification and it's really fun. Just bring them back for the nostalgia, some people really liked camping NMs. It's one of my fondest memories and I even made some lasting friendships in game during camping competitions.

The music is hugely improved in some areas. The game just has a much more Final Fantasy feel, even more so than FF11 in some ways. I can't wait to see the Golden Saucer and other throwbacks that Yoshida mentioned. If this game can shape up to be a big enough challenge and yet still fun when we're short on time, this could be my new MMO for quite a while. I'm feeling a little bit excited.

Since the game is built with and for PC primarily, they should be able to port this over and optimize it for PS4 whenever it's released right?


I asked, PS3 and PC are first. After those are safely launched and humming I'm sure they'll watch the PS4's adoption rate and decide then if they want to port it.
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#16 Feb 21 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Wow. They did an incredible job with the little time they had.

I think that they should bring back all the old NMs like Leaping Lizzy etc and have them on a 30 min spawn time or something. They don't have to drop epic items, but perhaps gear that looks awesome that can replace the look of your current armor. WoW did this with Transmogrification and it's really fun. Just bring them back for the nostalgia, some people really liked camping NMs. It's one of my fondest memories and I even made some lasting friendships in game during camping competitions.

The music is hugely improved in some areas. The game just has a much more Final Fantasy feel, even more so than FF11 in some ways. I can't wait to see the Golden Saucer and other throwbacks that Yoshida mentioned. If this game can shape up to be a big enough challenge and yet still fun when we're short on time, this could be my new MMO for quite a while. I'm feeling a little bit excited.

Since the game is built with and for PC primarily, they should be able to port this over and optimize it for PS4 whenever it's released right?


I asked, PS3 and PC are first. After those are safely launched and humming I'm sure they'll watch the PS4's adoption rate and decide then if they want to port it.


Right on, yeah because last time when it was designed for the PS2 they never ported it to PS3 which was a shame. You had to play it on first gen PS3s with low end visuals.

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 1:40pm by Transmigration
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#17 Feb 21 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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So. Enlighten me.
What's the difference between a FATE and a NM with special loot distribution rules?
#18 Feb 21 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
So. Enlighten me.
What's the difference between a FATE and a NM with special loot distribution rules?


FATEs are open to everyone in the zone. Anyone can target and attack without being in any party. Once the FATE starts, everyone in the zone will get a message and can see on the map where it is taking place. When you get close it will list the objective for the FATE, and once done loot is distributed. They're planning on 5-10 FATE's for each zone.
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#19 Feb 21 2013 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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You don't have to compete with other players to get the claim. You don't have to be in the party that got the claim. You can't camp a low level spawn as a high level job (leaping lizzy). Everyone has a chance at loot.

ETA: this is a lot like the rift and invasion events in Rift. It was really fun to be ou gathering or soloing and then the invasion horn would sound and everyone would run like heck to the event. It's a good way to shake things up.

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 11:03am by LebargeX
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#20Rinsui, Posted: Feb 21 2013 at 1:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) See 2.
#21 Feb 21 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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So FATEs are basically Rift events from.. well.. Rift.

What happens if the FATE doesn't get completed? Is there some kind of time limit after which it just ends? Or does it stick around for all eternity waiting for someone to come along and kill it?
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#22 Feb 21 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
You don't have to compete with other players to get the claim.

Well. What if my LS camps the zone and kills the NM before anyone else has a chance to join in?

Quote:
You don't have to be in the party that got the claim.

Well, yes. That's what I meant with "special loot rules". But good luck hitting a NM that's already dead...?

Quote:
You can't camp a low level spawn as a high level job (leaping lizzy).

Why not?

Quote:
Everyone has a chance at loot.

See 2.


You wouldn't get anything camping low level mobs. Rewards are based upon participation and level. So I guess if you want to grief people until a GM bans your ***, you can do that. I suspect though they have thought of that already. I was the only one in the zone when I did it, so I don't know how some of this stuff works. Yoshi plays MMO's though, so I'm sure he's aware of the issues.
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#23 Feb 21 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is a time limit yes, I don't know what that is in all cases, I wasn't really paying attention when I did the one I participated in.
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#24 Feb 21 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
You don't have to compete with other players to get the claim.

Well. What if my LS camps the zone and kills the NM before anyone else has a chance to join in?

Quote:
You don't have to be in the party that got the claim.

Well, yes. That's what I meant with "special loot rules". But good luck hitting a NM that's already dead...?

Quote:
You can't camp a low level spawn as a high level job (leaping lizzy).

Why not?

Quote:
Everyone has a chance at loot.

See 2.


I suppose you could try to camp spawns for the lower level FATE's, if your LS wants to just sit there and wait. If it's like Rift, then you would probably be wiped out without considerable assistance for the 'good stuff'. There were multiple waves of cannon fodder that would attack first, and you had to kill a bunch of them within a specifi time for the boss to pop. So, there wouldn't be an NM to camp until the lower level stuff was dead. The boss would also pop in random places in the zone. So, no camping.

Wint said in his write up that if you're too far below or above the FATE's level, you don't get loot, so no camping low level stuff, and no tagging along at level 20 hoping to get stuff you can use at 50.





Edited, Feb 21st 2013 11:12am by LebargeX
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#25 Feb 21 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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What about levelsyncing during FATE fights ?
#26 Feb 21 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:
What about levelsyncing during FATE fights ?


Level sync won't be implemented until phase 4, so I didn't get to see that. I assume that would work though. However any NM worth camping would not go down fast with a bunch of people at the correct level for killing it. I did a FATE I was 10 levels over and survived with 8hp left, and got squat because I was too high level for it Smiley: smile Some aren't meant to be solo'd, and I think they are well engineered to avoid these kinds of issues. Yoshi-P isn't in a bubble, he's aware of other MMOs and what works and what doesn't.

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 1:21pm by Wint
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#27 Feb 21 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshi-P isn't in a bubble, he's aware of other MMOs and what works and what doesn't.


Thank.

God.
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#28 Feb 21 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Yoshi-P isn't in a bubble, he's aware of other MMOs and what works and what doesn't.


Thank.

God.


Smiley: laugh

Couldn't have said it better myself.
#29 Feb 21 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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He told me that in my interview, he considers himself a hardcore MMO gamer, so I think we can have some confidence in where he's taking the game.
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#30 Feb 21 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Thank.

God.
No one ever thanks Vishnu.
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#31 Feb 21 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Thank.

God.
No one ever thanks Vishnu.


Think of it as a sort of indeterminate Fill-in-the-black "God" Smiley: smile
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#32 Feb 21 2013 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I like a lot of what I'm seeing, and yet, I still expect the game won't do very well based on it. Part of this is what others have already voiced with the HNM/FATE system.
What it comes down to is challenge and incentive. Challenge and incentive. This is the feedback loop that makes a game fun, as any learned game designer will tell you. I don't see that being done well here. The framework that they're building for these systems is going to make finding the proper balance for encounters and rewards incredibly difficult.

FATEs are going to be over-crowded, unbalanced messes unless they cap the number of people who can participate. Period. That's not the ideal solution, but it's the simplest and most resource-effective. This way the events are still publicly viewable even though not everyone can participate. And if they want to preserve a more public system (rather than instanced battles), those slots should simply be first-come, first-serve.

Compounding that with a generalized performance-rating systems, particularly those which do not provide real-time feedback, is a recipe for balance disaster. Some encounters will inevitably penalize certain classes. This means that they have to put significant thought into the evaluation system for EACH individual encounter. They can't just scale them according to level. This is not necessarily a problem as long as they actually do it. However, having those evaluations FURTHER scale by level makes them a balancing NIGHTMARE. There's just no way to do this gracefully. Rewards should be based on whether or not you succeeded in killing the monster, not how much you contributed to killing the monster. It may not be the "fairest" system, but it's the most efficient. Besides, if the fights and rewards are enticing, people will be giving it their best anyway. Also, presumably if being too low of a level won't get you a reward, you can adjust your level down as you could in XI? Otherwise their equipment scaling would need to be flawless.

The lack of camped NMs in general doesn't bother me. It's a niche part of the community that will actively enjoy them, and there are better ways to incentivize high-status players (by actually providing challenges which require great skill, rather than a no-lifer dedication and luck with claiming). If they did end up using a queue for FATE systems, you'd get the same basic rush in trying to be one of the first in line, though of course that means you'll be taking on the encounter with more strangers than friends.
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#33 Feb 21 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I like a lot of what I'm seeing, and yet, I still expect the game won't do very well based on it.


Of course not Smiley: rolleyes
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#34 Feb 21 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Default
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Have we learned nothing from the past? A game can do many things masterfully, but if it doesn't deliver on gameplay, it launches on life support. The gameplay does look a bit improved as I see it in the gamepad video in terms of engagement, but there are still valid concerns about the level of challenge and the incentive structure. Those are the things that matter most. Without them, doing everything else right just isn't enough. The game failed miserably once; you'd have to be dreaming to believe it can't go the same way as SWTOR and every other recent major MMO release at this point.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#35 Feb 21 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I like a lot of what I'm seeing, and yet, I still expect the game won't do very well based on it. ... FATEs are going to be over-crowded, unbalanced messes unless they cap the number of people who can participate. Period.


Back where I come from, an event that's too popular is a good problem to have...
#36 Feb 21 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Have we learned nothing from the past? A game can do many things masterfully, but if it doesn't deliver on gameplay, it launches on life support. The gameplay does look a bit improved as I see it in the gamepad video in terms of engagement, but there are still valid concerns about the level of challenge and the incentive structure. Those are the things that matter most. Without them, doing everything else right just isn't enough. The game failed miserably once; you'd have to be dreaming to believe it can't go the same way as SWTOR and every other recent major MMO release at this point.


I agree with you about the challenge. From the look of the video the fights still look way over simplified. They added jump so why don't I see people avoiding frontal cone attacks and such? Everyone is still just standing there and getting whomped on hitting 1,2,3, 1,2,3.

I would like more active boss mechanics the way fights are in wow,rift,and tor at least. I don't need the Tera model, I didn't really like it much tbh.
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#37 Feb 21 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not saying it can't fail, but I was just thinking earlier "I wonder when Kachi will come in and crap all over everyone's excitement".

However you did comment favorably on other aspects so apparently FATE is the Achilles heel of this game.
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#38 Feb 21 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Default
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Is there a reason that everything I quote is getting quoted twice in my reply?

Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I like a lot of what I'm seeing, and yet, I still expect the game won't do very well based on it. ... FATEs are going to be over-crowded, unbalanced messes unless they cap the number of people who can participate. Period.


Back where I come from, an event that's too popular is a good problem to have...


An event that is too popular gets overcrowded, and NO ONE gets to enjoy it. Remember when Besieged first hit FFXI? It was a super successful concept! And it was horribly implemented; the lag alone prevented most people from getting to attack a single enemy.

These FATE events are no different from the Dynamic Events in GW2. And most of them are horribly boring because there are too many people. Your contribution is mostly meaningless to the outcome, and you can barely even see what's going on.

Transmigration wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Have we learned nothing from the past? A game can do many things masterfully, but if it doesn't deliver on gameplay, it launches on life support. The gameplay does look a bit improved as I see it in the gamepad video in terms of engagement, but there are still valid concerns about the level of challenge and the incentive structure. Those are the things that matter most. Without them, doing everything else right just isn't enough. The game failed miserably once; you'd have to be dreaming to believe it can't go the same way as SWTOR and every other recent major MMO release at this point.


I agree with you about the challenge. From the look of the video the fights still look way over simplified. They added jump so why don't I see people avoiding frontal cone attacks and such? Everyone is still just standing there and getting whomped on hitting 1,2,3, 1,2,3.

I would like more active boss mechanics the way fights are in wow,rift,and tor at least. I don't need the Tera model, I didn't really like it much tbh.


He mentioned in gamepad video that he was chaining 3 skills together. If they have some features like that, maintain some semblance of positioning and direction being meaningful, balance abilities well, and include some cooperative party mechanics (NOT including trinity-like dynamics), I could see the gameplay being kind of mediocre, but good enough to survive, maybe even thrive, based on the game's other strengths. However, there's really no reason that they can't make the gameplay amazing other than a lack of knowing how to.

Wint wrote:
I'm not saying it can't fail, but I was just thinking earlier "I wonder when Kachi will come in and crap all over everyone's excitement".

However you did comment favorably on other aspects so apparently FATE is the Achilles heel of this game.


I was getting excited about it too, honestly, but then I remembered the bigger picture. I'm seeing some things that are being done very well. That gives me faith in the competence of the design team. That gets me excited for the game's potential. That allows me to see myself enjoying this game. But then when I take a step back and look at the evidence in front of me regarding the most important design elements, my excitement becomes tempered. I want to believe that the designers recognize the importance of balancing a series of novel challenges to match player ability, and that they understand how essential a solid feedback system is to maintaining player incentive. But the reality is that game designers on the whole don't understand that -even a little bit-. They're operating on personal theory and feedback from testers. Sometimes they get lucky and stumble onto something good, and other times their intuition leads them down the right path. But relying on game designers to know what they're doing is a recipe for disappointment.

So while I would like to believe that Yoshi-P's design team is responsible for these good decisions because they are really talented and insightful designers, and they can be trusted to continually deliver work that is worthy of high expectations... the evidence just doesn't bear that out, historically. Not in the industry, not at SE, and not for this team (yet). So yes, I'm a skeptic, through and through. It very rarely leads me astray.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Feb 21 2013 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
An event that is too popular gets overcrowded, and NO ONE gets to enjoy it. Remember when Besieged first hit FFXI? It was a super successful concept! And it was horribly implemented; the lag alone prevented most people from getting to attack a single enemy.

These FATE events are no different from the Dynamic Events in GW2. And most of them are horribly boring because there are too many people. Your contribution is mostly meaningless to the outcome, and you can barely even see what's going on.


If only they could test FATE with thousands of eager fans before they release the game so they can work out these issues before it's too late... Smiley: rolleyes
#40 Feb 21 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, as with the dynamic events in Rift and GW2, the problems come in when there are too FEW players doing them.

For instance, I can ride up to a rift event in Rift that's in my way (like.. literally in my way), and be totally incapable of progressing through it just because I'm not capable of completing the event by myself or even with one or two other people.

That's the danger. As the game ages, the events (especially in lower level areas) will be attended less and less. They still need to be doable in that circumstance, otherwise they're just a hindrance to people and not a fun event.
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#41 Feb 21 2013 at 7:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
These FATE events are no different from the Dynamic Events in GW2. And most of them are horribly boring because there are too many people. Your contribution is mostly meaningless to the outcome, and you can barely even see what's going on.


I play GW2 quite often, and a big difference between FFXIV and GW2 that could significantly mitigate the above problem is that, in GW2, everyone is automatically level synched to every zone they enter. Thus, everyone is rewarded for taking part in dynamic world events. For example, if you're a level 70 player walking through a level 10 zone, and a level 10 dynamic event breaks out, you can participate at level 70 and actually get decent exp.

In FFXIV, that won't be the case. Not only will people not be automatically level synched, but there will be no reward incentive for people to swarm on fights that they don't need to be doing. If a level 50 player is moving through a low-level zone and passes by a low-level FATE, he/she will have no incentive or reason to stop and jump in. That alone will cut down the number of people taking part in single events... that's quite different from besieged in FFXI, when there was no deterrent for EVERYONE to participate (you got exp as long as you were alive at the end).

Also, many of us will already have higher-level jobs, so the playerbase will start out a little more spread out than most MMORPGs would.
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#42 Feb 21 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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I'm getting nervous. Everything looks pretty good.

The "cross hotbar" looks like something me or a few posters thought of a while back, lol.

LOL at the upskirt in the second video around 3:00, ....other than that in addition to that (:)) it looks pretty good.

ALSO, the fact that PS4 uses PC architecture now means that it should be easy to make a PS4 version of this game (but I confess I don't know anything about programming other than the basics.)

In a grand scheme, I think these videos shows the devs "got it". Now it boils down to can they innovate/deviate from that basis and be successful. I like the fact that spells look better, and that the copypasta is gone., FATEs etc.....it almost doesn't make me want to play the beta because I want to be surprised, in part, because the game is actually looking good...if that makes any sense.
#43 Feb 21 2013 at 8:28 PM Rating: Excellent
I think the framework is in place for this game to be very successful. From here, I think the most important things for SE to do are:

1) Relentlessly get the word out by any means necessary.
2) Do what Final Fantasy has always done best... infuse the game with great lore, epic storylines and memorable characters.
3) Listen to the beta feedback.

I don't think a MMORPG needs to reinvent or redefine the wheel in order to be successful... otherwise, Guild Wars 2 would be doing better right now. I'm not saying that GW2 is failing, by any means... but most people I know who bought the game have already completely lost interest in it, and they only play it when they're really, really bored. The storylines are flat, the characters are very forgettable, and after going through the trouble of voicing so many "cutscenes" (which aren't really cutscenes at all), the quality of the voicing is really just horrendous. GW2 also redefined questing with all kinds of dynamic events, dynamic quests, etc... but in the end, it was just another kind of grind, with its own sets of benefits and drawbacks.

It seems like no other recently launched MMO has been able to rekindle the magic of the average gamer's first MMO. The more polished these games get, it's almost as if they become more detached and soulless. I really believe this is the kind of game that could break that trend, at least among fans of the Final Fantasy franchise. Do that, and this game will go on for a very long time.
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#44 Feb 21 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
An event that is too popular gets overcrowded, and NO ONE gets to enjoy it. Remember when Besieged first hit FFXI? It was a super successful concept! And it was horribly implemented; the lag alone prevented most people from getting to attack a single enemy.

These FATE events are no different from the Dynamic Events in GW2. And most of them are horribly boring because there are too many people. Your contribution is mostly meaningless to the outcome, and you can barely even see what's going on.


If only they could test FATE with thousands of eager fans before they release the game so they can work out these issues before it's too late... Smiley: rolleyes


You say that as if other MMO's didn't beta test the same features and go ahead with them anyway Smiley: laugh
You're making a lot of assumptions with that jab. One is that the beta test will imitate the event strain that the game will experience in actual play. That alone is a dangerous assumption. Beta participation can't simulate large-scale server activity. You're assuming that the players who beta test it will vocalize the concern sufficiently for SE to notice and correct the issue. That's another dangerous assumption. Beta characters are not like actual characters and are unlikely to experience true game balance. But most of all, you're glossing over the fact that this is not a "potential" problem. This is an inevitable problem. It does not NEED to be tested in order to be addressed.

Quote:
I don't think a MMORPG needs to reinvent or redefine the wheel in order to be successful... otherwise, Guild Wars 2 would be doing better right now. I'm not saying that GW2 is failing, by any means... but most people I know who bought the game have already completely lost interest in it, and they only play it when they're really, really bored. The storylines are flat, the characters are very forgettable, and after going through the trouble of voicing so many "cutscenes" (which aren't really cutscenes at all), the quality of the voicing is really just horrendous. GW2 also redefined questing with all kinds of dynamic events, dynamic quests, etc... but in the end, it was just another kind of grind, with its own sets of benefits and drawbacks.

It seems like no other recently launched MMO has been able to rekindle the magic of the average gamer's first MMO. The more polished these games get, it's almost as if they become more detached and soulless. I really believe this is the kind of game that could break that trend, at least among fans of the Final Fantasy franchise. Do that, and this game will go on for a very long time.


GW2 was not designed with longevity as a priority. It's not a subscription game. I wouldn't go so far as to say that GW2 reinvented the wheel in any regard--they did some innovative things, but their downfall was with their execution... the same things I'm trying to call attention to in FFXIV. They had a terrible incentive system and while the gameplay presented moderate challenge, they failed to progressively escalate a series of novel challenges. These are the things that killed the game, and nothing else, and these are the same things that will kill FFXIV, and nothing else.

SWTOR's questing and lore were great. So were Secret World's, I understand. Both of those games went free-to-play very quickly. Those things you're describing as "soul" are little more than an aspect of the novel incentive structure. They're surprising little rewards for in-game accomplishments. Yes, they're important. No, they will not ensure a game's success. A successful game has a very robust structure of feedback loops that coincide with progressively greater challenge. Most MMO designers do not understand this at all. They just theorycraft based on what they liked about other MMOs and what they didn't like. But that method will only show you the superficial features of a game, not the system design concepts that engage players. Design elements and features only play a very small role in a game's success. It's executing the proper balance that matters most, and that balanced cannot be observed merely by playing other MMOs... in large part because they don't do it well. There are many more single-player games (which can average similar playtimes to MMOs) that are better models to look to for successful game design.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Feb 21 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
This is an inevitable problem. It does not NEED to be tested in order to be addressed.


You're assuming they don't have a plan in place already. Do you really think you're the first one to think of this issue? All you have are the hands on experiences of a few people who solo'd a FATE and none of the specifics of how they will work. I refuse to believe Yoshi and his team haven't had this conversation already and have something either already implemented or planned.
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#46 Feb 21 2013 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
These FATE events are no different from the Dynamic Events in GW2. And most of them are horribly boring because there are too many people. Your contribution is mostly meaningless to the outcome, and you can barely even see what's going on.


I play GW2 quite often, and a big difference between FFXIV and GW2 that could significantly mitigate the above problem is that, in GW2, everyone is automatically level synched to every zone they enter. Thus, everyone is rewarded for taking part in dynamic world events. For example, if you're a level 70 player walking through a level 10 zone, and a level 10 dynamic event breaks out, you can participate at level 70 and actually get decent exp.

In FFXIV, that won't be the case. Not only will people not be automatically level synched, but there will be no reward incentive for people to swarm on fights that they don't need to be doing. If a level 50 player is moving through a low-level zone and passes by a low-level FATE, he/she will have no incentive or reason to stop and jump in. That alone will cut down the number of people taking part in single events... that's quite different from besieged in FFXI, when there was no deterrent for EVERYONE to participate (you got exp as long as you were alive at the end).

Also, many of us will already have higher-level jobs, so the playerbase will start out a little more spread out than most MMORPGs would.


You can participate in theory, but most players don't. Why would they? They reach level 80 very quickly and don't NEED the XP. It has no value once you reach the level cap, and there's way more content than needed to reach the cap without participating in level 10 dynamic events. I disagree that high level participation is a problem with the dynamic events in GW2.

Moreover, the solution you're describing is ironically the PROBLEM that GW2 was trying to solve... lack of replayability of low level content and areas. So what you'll end up with is low level players who can't get help to do these events because no one sees any value in doing them. Telling players, "You could participate in that, but you get no reward," is the absolute wrong way to manage player participation. That's a measure that should never be needed. There are so many more effective ways to manage player content participation. Namely, devising a well-balanced incentive system in the first place. A stopgap measure like this wreaks of lazy design, though it is more likely just a plain bad idea.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Feb 21 2013 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
This is an inevitable problem. It does not NEED to be tested in order to be addressed.


You're assuming they don't have a plan in place already. Do you really think you're the first one to think of this issue? All you have are the hands on experiences of a few people who solo'd a FATE and none of the specifics of how they will work. I refuse to believe Yoshi and his team haven't had this conversation already and have something either already implemented or planned.


Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
This is an inevitable problem. It does not NEED to be tested in order to be addressed.


You're assuming they don't have a plan in place already. Do you really think you're the first one to think of this issue? All you have are the hands on experiences of a few people who solo'd a FATE and none of the specifics of how they will work. I refuse to believe Yoshi and his team haven't had this conversation already and have something either already implemented or planned.


I'm not assuming that at all. I'm simply being skeptical that they have a solution, based on the supposition that they wouldn't be relying on other design elements that are ostensibly in place to manage the problem.

In any case I don't believe it will help the game at all if players ignore the issue and assume that SE will deal with it, or that they have a solution. That's no way to facilitate actionable feedback from your testers.

Edit: Is no one else having this problem where your quoted posts show up twice?

Edited, Feb 21st 2013 7:17pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Feb 21 2013 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Kachi, are you suggesting that no MMORPG can survive nowadays?

The more we learn about FFXIV, the more it seems the development team is on the same page with what players want, while balancing the needs of casual and hardcore players (whereas GW2 seemed almost completely casual).

What news of FFXIV do you find to be most alarming at this point?
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#49 Feb 21 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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Any and all news that isn't exactly what he wants to hear and nothing else Thayos. He's beyond the point of convincing.
#50 Feb 21 2013 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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I showed the video to the folks in my office today.

One of them was like "Oh, is that the next opening movie?"

When I told her that it was actually the bench mark and a real time render, I could see her jaw drop a little.

"So, uh, when is this game coming out again...?"

Great graphics won't make a great game. But they sure don't hurt in attracting new players either.
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#51 Feb 21 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
I showed the video to the folks in my office today.

One of them was like "Oh, is that the next opening movie?"

When I told her that it was actually the bench mark and a real time render, I could see her jaw drop a little.

"So, uh, when is this game coming out again...?"

Great graphics won't make a great game. But they sure don't hurt in attracting new players either.



WHERE IS THIS MYTHICAL WORKPLACE!>!>!??

...

At my job I would get blank stares. :(
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