Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

A Realm Reborn: A Look AheadFollow

#52 Feb 21 2013 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Thayos wrote:
Kachi, are you suggesting that no MMORPG can survive nowadays?

The more we learn about FFXIV, the more it seems the development team is on the same page with what players want, while balancing the needs of casual and hardcore players (whereas GW2 seemed almost completely casual).

What news of FFXIV do you find to be most alarming at this point?


I don't think that it's impossible for an MMORPG to survive--I think that if your game is inevitably going to go free to play, then it's a really poor investment to spend so much on the infrastructure required for a subscription service only to switch models later. I also think it's much harder nowadays to get players hooked when there's so much competing for their attention. The threshold for getting players invested in your game in the 2005 era was much lower than what is required today. Even $1 smartphone games and facebook browser games are competing against MMORPGs for screentime.

I don't know that I'd agree that FFXIV is on the same page as both demographics either--plenty of hardcore players will be disappointed by the news that they're doing away with open world competition for NMs. And people said the same thing about SWTOR, about GW2--hyping up fans into believing that THIS will be the game is nothing new to an upcoming launch.

The news I find most alarming is that which is most central to the gameplay--in many cases it's not the news, but the lack thereof. What I've seen of combat, crafting and gathering totally underwhelms. These are the things that players will spend most of their time doing! If they are merely above average, then most subscribers just will not stay. Most players don't care about FFXIV the way the people here do--you get a strong confirmation bias in a community like this, people who are so excited that they're already imagining how great it will be to play the game for years to come. And most of their beta testers are going to bring them that same bias, because that's their primary pool of testers.

I can't fully grasp the incentive structure of the game until there is much more information, and that's the thing that always tickles me about the hype of a new game. Players hear about all the features and strengths of the game and get really excited, overlooking the fact that there will be no information regarding one of the most important elements of the game. When you go to set goals for yourself as a player, the incentive structure determines what actions you will take in order to achieve those goals. If it's bad, then the game will have you doing content over and over until it bores you, or it won't give you any incentive to do the really fun stuff, or no incentive to repeat the fun content, or it will bottleneck good content--there are many ways in which all of these good features you hear about can be implemented terribly, and you just don't know yet.

Now, you're welcome to give the game the benefit of the doubt. You're welcome to be optimistic without reservation. But if you were asked to make a prediction, and you predicted that these things will all be great, then you're taking some long odds, because most games do not do them well AT ALL... don't even know they're doing wrong. So remind me never to give you any gambling money.

Hyrist wrote:
Any and all news that isn't exactly what he wants to hear and nothing else Thayos. He's beyond the point of convincing.


To an extent, you're right. I won't be convinced that the game will be a success until I know more about the gameplay and the incentive structures. I won't be convinced that I should get my hopes up until I know that the most important elements of the game were well-designed. And why should I be? There's nothing wrong with being skeptical. Blind faith is what gets you into trouble.

But if you're implying that I'm not convinced that the game is even worth trying, then you're dead wrong. I plan to try the game regardless of how it looks. So, sure, I could just as easily take no time at all to limit my replies to, "We'll see," but then, this is a FFXIV general discussion forum, and I came here to have discussions about the game. It's not like I have any real stake in whether or not other people agree with what I have to say. I just enjoy talking about game design and Final Fantasy, like many proper geeks do.

Thayos wrote:
Kachi, are you suggesting that no MMORPG can survive nowadays?

The more we learn about FFXIV, the more it seems the development team is on the same page with what players want, while balancing the needs of casual and hardcore players (whereas GW2 seemed almost completely casual).

What news of FFXIV do you find to be most alarming at this point?


Hyrist wrote:
Any and all news that isn't exactly what he wants to hear and nothing else Thayos. He's beyond the point of convincing.


If I have to suffer this automated double-quoting, then so do all of you!
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#53 Feb 21 2013 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Kierk wrote:
catwho wrote:
I showed the video to the folks in my office today.

One of them was like "Oh, is that the next opening movie?"

When I told her that it was actually the bench mark and a real time render, I could see her jaw drop a little.

"So, uh, when is this game coming out again...?"

Great graphics won't make a great game. But they sure don't hurt in attracting new players either.



WHERE IS THIS MYTHICAL WORKPLACE!>!>!??

...

At my job I would get blank stares. :(


Little medical IT office. We have a ticket on our board discussing the merits of the time formulation of the Harlem Shake videos. (That almost, but not quite, made up for the headache I incurred trying to get AppAssure to run for the first time and then trying to get all the bloody clients to show up in Symantec Endpoint again. Headdesk, headdesk, headdesk...)

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 12:33am by catwho
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#54 Feb 21 2013 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
Kachi wrote:
SWTOR's questing and lore were great. So were Secret World's, I understand. Both of those games went free-to-play very quickly. Those things you're describing as "soul" are little more than an aspect of the novel incentive structure. They're surprising little rewards for in-game accomplishments.
The Secret World specifically suffered from subpar gameplay and couldn't do much in the short period of time it had due to their small developer team. It was also pretty niche given its style of progression.

TOR just suffered due to a ton of idiotic bugs, half-complete ideas, lack of content, broken PvP and bad relationships with their playerbase. The "scandals" we've seen since TOR launched didn't help at all. Then there's the Mythic urban legend, which I have a hard time believing but should be noted.

Neither failed because of anything you mentioned.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 12:59am by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#55 Feb 22 2013 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
***
2,232 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Any and all news that isn't exactly what he wants to hear and nothing else Thayos. He's beyond the point of convincing.


Lol no kidding. If Kachi ain't happy...ain't nobody happy.

Smiley: rolleyes
____________________________
Character: Urzol Thrush
Server: Ultros
FC: The Kraken Club

Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#56 Feb 22 2013 at 1:03 AM Rating: Default
**
383 posts
I think I'm the only one bummed out by lack of add-ons at launch.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#57 Feb 22 2013 at 1:47 AM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
I think Kachi is rasing a lot of valid points, one point of my own is the how the "abilities from multiple classes" system is going to work in ARR ? In FFXI this was solid and simplified to having abilities of "one" job at half the max level. In FFXIV they overcomplicated it (way to many options) and look how it turned out. I hope the dev team learned something from this and makes the correct adjustments.
#58 Feb 22 2013 at 1:53 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Ruisu wrote:
Kachi wrote:
SWTOR's questing and lore were great. So were Secret World's, I understand. Both of those games went free-to-play very quickly. Those things you're describing as "soul" are little more than an aspect of the novel incentive structure. They're surprising little rewards for in-game accomplishments.
The Secret World specifically suffered from subpar gameplay and couldn't do much in the short period of time it had due to their small developer team. It was also pretty niche given its style of progression.

TOR just suffered due to a ton of idiotic bugs, half-complete ideas, lack of content, broken PvP and bad relationships with their playerbase. The "scandals" we've seen since TOR launched didn't help at all. Then there's the Mythic urban legend, which I have a hard time believing but should be noted.

Neither failed because of anything you mentioned.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 12:59am by Ruisu


Ruisu wrote:
Kachi wrote:
SWTOR's questing and lore were great. So were Secret World's, I understand. Both of those games went free-to-play very quickly. Those things you're describing as "soul" are little more than an aspect of the novel incentive structure. They're surprising little rewards for in-game accomplishments.
The Secret World specifically suffered from subpar gameplay and couldn't do much in the short period of time it had due to their small developer team. It was also pretty niche given its style of progression.

TOR just suffered due to a ton of idiotic bugs, half-complete ideas, lack of content, broken PvP and bad relationships with their playerbase. The "scandals" we've seen since TOR launched didn't help at all. Then there's the Mythic urban legend, which I have a hard time believing but should be noted.

Neither failed because of anything you mentioned.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 12:59am by Ruisu


Did you read what I wrote at all? Nevermind the fact that I was only demonstrating that a well-established lore could not save a game, I specifically cited the importance of gameplay. SWTOR -definitely- had problems with the gameplay... there was very little challenge to it at all, and the "broken" aspect of PvP was specifically balance-related. And if you don't think SWTOR had problems with its incentive structure, I don't know what to tell you. Lack of content is an aspect of the incentive structure, for example. You don't understand how incentives work, maybe?

All that aside, you're supporting my point perfectly. All of those things that you just cited as the reasons for the failure of those games are still 100% up in the air regarding FFXIV. So I reiterate: why shouldn't I be skeptical about FFXIV?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#59 Feb 22 2013 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Seriously-- is this some kind of prank or something? If so, I'll give you that it's mildly amusing.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Feb 22 2013 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
Kachi wrote:
Did you read what I wrote at all? Nevermind the fact that I was only demonstrating that a well-established lore could not save a game, I specifically cited the importance of gameplay.
Then you started talking about accomplishments for some reason, which makes your argument not that different from the sillyhead that made a thread about how TOR failed because it had quested leveling (lol).

Quote:
SWTOR -definitely- had problems with the gameplay
I don't deny that. TOR's issue on that end was that at launch half of the game's content was either not properly tuned (like the bosses in Esseles) or bugged (several bosses in Eternity Vault). There were also gameplay bugs like getting stuck on the ground and crashing whenever your ship went to lightspeed, aside from eyesores like lightsaber clipping on PCs and companions. Back in 2003 people would just trudge through and suck it up, but in 2012 people said "***** this, I'm gonna go play WoW/LoL/Pogo/Facebook Games".

Quote:
the "broken" aspect of PvP was specifically balance-related.
It sounds to me like you're trying to brush it off. Broken PvP is what pretty much killed Warhammer Online, and TOR took substantial damage from not only Sith outnumbering Republic during the first 6 months post-launch (which made being repub on PvP servers painful at the higher levels), but because the OPness of certain classes was left untouched despite the continuous feedback that was presented during beta. So yeah, there were people who got mad and left over that.

Quote:
Lack of content is an aspect of the incentive structure
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Presentation is what pretty much hurt anything after the class story. Aside from that, there was little to do for the first several months because the game had been rushed to launch. The engine couldn't even handle Illum (the lv50 PvP planet) and had to be taken offline to be remade, so people lost that part of the game for a while.

Quote:
All that aside, you're supporting my point perfectly.
Not really. I'm more arguing against the assertion that lack of challenge hurt TOR, when it had much bigger and much more tangible issues that BW decided to ignore or could simply not fix. Given the myriad of real problems TOR had/has, people got fed up and left.

Quote:
All of those things that you just cited as the reasons for the failure of those games are still 100% up in the air regarding FFXIV. So I reiterate: why shouldn't I be skeptical about FFXIV?
Which is fine. The point I'm trying to get across is that the lesson to take from all of this is not silliness about challenge or accomplishments. It's about the fact that an MMO in 2013 will not get away with having notable bugs and lacking content from the moment it goes live. Everquest and WoW could get away with it because at the time alternatives were few. Now, there's a lot more games out there vying for people's attention, which leads to players being a LOT less forgiving about mistakes in design and lacking gameplay.

PS: Maybe I'm not understanding your post, and if that is the case I apologize

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 4:29am by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#61 Feb 22 2013 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Maybe it's just that you make your concerns sound more like proven facts than like the worst-case-scenarios they really are.
#62 Feb 22 2013 at 3:39 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Then you started talking about accomplishments for some reason, which makes your argument not that different from the sillyhead that made a thread about how TOR failed because it had quested leveling (lol).


I didn't say anything about accomplishments. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Accomplishments are pretty unimportant in the big picture; I would never harp on them as a major factor in a game's success or failure.

Quote:
Not really. I'm more arguing against the assertion that lack of challenge hurt TOR, when it had much bigger and much more tangible issues that BW decided to ignore or could simply not fix. Given the myriad of real problems TOR had/has, people got fed up and left.


I'll just have to disagree then. TOR was an easy game, and many players grew bored with the gameplay as a result, causing them to leave. Combined with a lack of proper endgame incentive and really a pretty mediocre incentive system throughout, you had an amazing foundation for a game that rang very hollow due to all the dead space.

Quote:
Which is fine. The point I'm trying to get across is that the lesson to take from all of this is not silliness about challenge or accomplishments. It's about the fact that an MMO in 2013 will not get away with having notable bugs and lacking content from the moment it goes live. Everquest and WoW could get away with it because at the time alternatives were few. Now, there's a lot more games out there vying for people's attention, which leads to players being a LOT less forgiving about mistakes in design and lacking gameplay.


The presence of novel and appropriate challenges are the most well-studied and established foundation of enjoying pretty much anything. So there is no silliness to it at all. That aside, the arguments you're making really don't disagree with what I'm saying at all; in fact you seem to agree with most of what I'm saying. Perhaps my language was too formal, leaving you to make inferences that were incorrect.

Quote:
Maybe it's just that you make your concerns sound more like proven facts than like the worst-case-scenarios they really are.


Perhaps. I certainly don't pretend to know with certainty, but I wouldn't call them worse-case-scenarios by any stretch. I would call them incredibly likely scenarios. These things don't need to be the worst case in the slightest to ensure that the game will flop... a look at other major MMO releases will tell you that. They were certainly not awful--many were pretty good.

Edit:
Quote:
PS: Maybe I'm not understanding your post, and if that is the case I apologize

Ah, well there you go.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 1:41am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Feb 22 2013 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachi, from your comment about not giving me gambling money, I'd almost think you were a gambler. However, that's not the vibe I get from the rest of your comments. Being skeptical is a useful trait, for sure; but at some point, you need to be decisive and lay down your cards.

For the record, I'm not much of a gambler myself. I enjoy Vegas for the restaurants, the shows and the French onion soup at Mon Ami Gabi. The wife and I usually throw a few bucks in the penny slots, but the thought of gambling large sums of money really stresses me out. I'm way too invested in my work and my finances. That said, I do have a thing for throwing $10 on the roulette table at least once per trip, but that's about it.

My figurative $10 is on FFXIV being a solid game, based on the evidence that SE has addressed every single one of the game's biggest weaknesses, which will bring out the strengths of the game that existed even during version 1.0. Your figurative $10 seems to be on FFXIV failing, and you seem to be basing this on a different view of the same evidence that I see. On the surface, our disagreement is no different than roulette. You bet on red, and I bet on black.

The wheel will spin soon enough!


Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 1:54am by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#64 Feb 22 2013 at 3:54 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
**
676 posts
Maldavian wrote:
I think Kachi is rasing a lot of valid points, one point of my own is the how the "abilities from multiple classes" system is going to work in ARR ? In FFXI this was solid and simplified to having abilities of "one" job at half the max level. In FFXIV they overcomplicated it (way to many options) and look how it turned out. I hope the dev team learned something from this and makes the correct adjustments.


Sounds like they've revamped this. From what I've read, all the cross class/job abilities will be available at or below lvl 30. Anything higher than that would be class/job specific.

Here are some good/interesting articles.

http://gamerescape.com/2013/02/21/gamer-escape-talks-to-naoki-yoshida-on-the-ffxiv-media-tour/

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/21/massivelys-comprehensive-preview-of-final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm/
____________________________
#65 Feb 22 2013 at 3:54 AM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
You are both silly..... Kachi is being on point, and you rinsui are just stating the same but with extra words Smiley: lol

____________________________
MUTED
#66 Feb 22 2013 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
Kachi wrote:
I'll just have to disagree then. TOR was an easy game, and many players grew bored with the gameplay as a result, causing them to leave.
Reason why "challenge" or lack thereof are not good speaking points is because challenge is subjective. Different people look for different things, and since the dawn of MMORPGs not all players have wanted the exact same thing from the game.

Quote:
Combined with a lack of proper endgame incentive and really a pretty mediocre incentive system throughout, you had an amazing foundation for a game that rang very hollow due to all the dead space.
The issue was not incentive, but presentation. You play 1-50 immersed in a story and then suddenly you're 50, your story ends (or put on hold) and you're given a bunch of endgame instances that are not connected to the story you built up during the level climb. Even vanilla WoW did a better job in tying raids into their zone storylines. Well, unless by incentive you mean "why should I care about Soa in Eternity Vault enough for me to go there?".

Quote:
The presence of novel and appropriate challenges are the most well-studied and established foundation of enjoying pretty much anything.
Again, this is a dangerous assumption to make.

I would personally be more worried about what SE is doing to not repeat EA/BW's mistakes. I single out BW because TOR and XIV were launched somewhat close to each other, both having the same issues but SE and EA took different approaches to solving it. SE through Yoshida has gone to great lengths to build trust with the community, while BW sequestered themselves to their castle in the clouds. SE admitted they were wrong, EA went F2P because they said people could not afford to pay the 15$ sub for TOR (rather than admit their game is a rushed clusterf*ck and people aren't willing to pay for a game with that many problems). Even if its PR the community's reactions are near polar opposites.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 5:08am by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#67 Feb 22 2013 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
**
858 posts
I agree with most of what Kachi is saying although I think there are other problems as well besides incentive and pure game mechanics leading to other games failing. Overall though I am definitely worried for XIV with what I have seen so far.
#68 Feb 22 2013 at 4:59 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Thayos wrote:
Kachi, from your comment about not giving me gambling money, I'd almost think you were a gambler. However, that's not the vibe I get from the rest of your comments. Being skeptical is a useful trait, for sure; but at some point, you need to be decisive and lay down your cards.

For the record, I'm not much of a gambler myself. I enjoy Vegas for the restaurants, the shows and the French onion soup at Mon Ami Gabi. The wife and I usually throw a few bucks in the penny slots, but the thought of gambling large sums of money really stresses me out. I'm way too invested in my work and my finances. That said, I do have a thing for throwing $10 on the roulette table at least once per trip, but that's about it.

My figurative $10 is on FFXIV being a solid game, based on the evidence that SE has addressed every single one of the game's biggest weaknesses, which will bring out the strengths of the game that existed even during version 1.0. Your figurative $10 seems to be on FFXIV failing, and you seem to be basing this on a different view of the same evidence that I see. On the surface, our disagreement is no different than roulette. You bet on red, and I bet on black.

The wheel will spin soon enough!


Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 1:54am by Thayos


Thayos wrote:
Kachi, from your comment about not giving me gambling money, I'd almost think you were a gambler. However, that's not the vibe I get from the rest of your comments. Being skeptical is a useful trait, for sure; but at some point, you need to be decisive and lay down your cards.

For the record, I'm not much of a gambler myself. I enjoy Vegas for the restaurants, the shows and the French onion soup at Mon Ami Gabi. The wife and I usually throw a few bucks in the penny slots, but the thought of gambling large sums of money really stresses me out. I'm way too invested in my work and my finances. That said, I do have a thing for throwing $10 on the roulette table at least once per trip, but that's about it.

My figurative $10 is on FFXIV being a solid game, based on the evidence that SE has addressed every single one of the game's biggest weaknesses, which will bring out the strengths of the game that existed even during version 1.0. Your figurative $10 seems to be on FFXIV failing, and you seem to be basing this on a different view of the same evidence that I see. On the surface, our disagreement is no different than roulette. You bet on red, and I bet on black.

The wheel will spin soon enough!


Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 1:54am by Thayos


I'm no gambler myself, and fortunately we don't have a lot riding on this (other than our hopes for a good MMO). What it really comes down to for me is that I see problems, and I see blanks that are currently empty, but very likely to be filled in with problems. When I see those things, I would rather call attention to them so that they are noted and corrected early on. After the game launches, it will be too late. I would vastly prefer that we are all happily playing FFXIV than to hang around here in its dying days saying, "I told you so." And yeah, sorry to say I would totally be doing that, to everyone else's dismay.

It's just a statistical truth that most games will be mediocre due to underwhelming design. And an MMO really can't afford to be mediocre because its profits don't come from initial box sales, but continued play. Older games got away with being mediocre because players developed an attachment while the genre was new and interesting. Now the genre is ubiquitous, and no one will stick around for a mediocre game.

Also, I swear I'm not doing this. Though I don't mind becoming known as the guy who quotes everything twice, I would rather not be viewed as more of a nuisance than I probably already am Smiley: lol
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Feb 22 2013 at 5:14 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Reason why "challenge" or lack thereof are not good speaking points is because challenge is subjective. Different people look for different things, and since the dawn of MMORPGs not all players have wanted the exact same thing from the game.


Eh, I'm not going to argue semantics with you on this, but there's a difference between subjective and an opinion. Whether something is challenging can be subjective, but it is not an opinion. Something either is challenging to a person or it isn't. It's measurable and testable. It's quantifiable and scalable. It can be changed as needed for the individual. Successful game designers have known this sense the olden days. That's why legendary games are those which became progressively more challenging the further you got, and offered different difficulty levels. Meanwhile, games that provided no opportunity for advancement slipped into the abyss.

If you can't regulate challenge according to the varying skill levels of players, then you aren't a good game designer. Even the worst game designers understand this on some level.

Quote:
The issue was not incentive, but presentation. You play 1-50 immersed in a story and then suddenly you're 50, your story ends (or put on hold) and you're given a bunch of endgame instances that are not connected to the story you built up during the level climb. Even vanilla WoW did a better job in tying raids into their zone storylines. Well, unless by incentive you mean "why should I care about Soa in Eternity Vault enough for me to go there?".


Narrative is a part of the incentive system. The incentive system essentially includes all -intended- player goals, whether that's getting the best helmet in the game, or beating the boss at the end of the story. So yes, if you have no more reason to play the game because they ran out of incentives to give you, that's a major problem with the incentive system. But it's a much more complex problem than "more incentives." It includes the design of the incentives and their pacing among other things.

Quote:
Again, this is a dangerous assumption to make.

I would personally be more worried about what SE is doing to not repeat EA/BW's mistakes. I single out BW because TOR and XIV were launched somewhat close to each other, both having the same issues but SE and EA took different approaches to solving it. SE through Yoshida has gone to great lengths to build trust with the community, while BW sequestered themselves to their castle in the clouds. SE admitted they were wrong, EA went F2P because they said people could not afford to pay the 15$ sub for TOR (rather than admit their game is a rushed clusterf*ck and people aren't willing to pay for a game with that many problems). Even if its PR the community's reactions are near polar opposites.


This is not an assumption. It's been studied for decades by researchers across a variety of fields. There are literally thousands of publications about the role that challenge plays in promoting enjoyment.

As for the community relations end, SE has been leaps and bounds improved. I don't see that as a factor that is likely to impact FFXIV's success or failure at this point. Poor community relations can certainly hurt a game, but I wouldn't necessarily say that good relations can save one. At some point, people will jump ship no matter how much you promise.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#70 Feb 22 2013 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Kachi we've opened a ticket on the double quoting thing, it's Firefox 19 specific oddly enough.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#71 Feb 22 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
I'm not going to argue the matter at all at this point. If you're in negative views or heavy worries about the game at this point, I don't beleive a single thing about this game will convince you to play - it's just not for you.

If you're stipulating that if the game does not convince you then it will not convince anyone and the game will fail, I will stand as an exception to that along with all the others who decide the game is entertaining enough for their subscription.

At this point, the game is (or will be Monday) in beta. The core of its design and functionality has been set, and most arguments about gameplay aspects will have no effect on the release product. At this point, it is a discussion of speculation and details.

On a side note, where's Filthy? I was interested to see his reaction thus far and yet I've not seen a post.
#72 Feb 22 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
**
572 posts
For my part I have decided to give this a go, I bought the game when it was first released, but it had so many faults that I quit playing after 1 month. This time around I think SE has adressed a lot of issues ( after all you can count the past 3 years as a gigantic testing phase ), maybee not all and also keep in mind this game or any other game wont be a 100% nonfaulty game, but lets say it has progressed enormously since it was released back in 2010. So for me personally, as long as they have made sufficient progress since 2010, I will be supporting them from this point and forward. Of cource this does not mean that I won't be complaining if I see aspects of the game that still needs improvement, but I hope that the starting point and the level of refinement of ARR is much better then the release of 2010.
#73 Feb 22 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
Hyrist wrote:
I'm not going to argue the matter at all at this point. If you're in negative views or heavy worries about the game at this point, I don't beleive a single thing about this game will convince you to play - it's just not for you.


That's just silly.

Pretty much everyone who hasn't been following FFXIV closely is going to be skeptical of ARR based on how poorly it did at the original launch. But everyone knew that. And Yoshida led the effort to try convincing these future skeptics to give FFXIV another shot. It was audacious. Overly optimistic, perhaps. But pessimists never accomplished anything.

What's being presented now is the culminations of those efforts, and they are not done yet. Everything that's being revealed is designed to change the hearts of the skeptical masses, if it's still not convincing enough, just wait. Give the crazy guy who refused to let the franchise roll over and die a chance. It's not very often you get to see this in the gaming industry, anymore.

What we don't need are misguided fans chasing people away for expressing reservations when those are the people Yoshida is trying to reach.
#74 Feb 22 2013 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Thanks, Wint. It's true that I always wanted to be a Mime, but this is not quite what I had in mind.

Hyrist wrote:
I'm not going to argue the matter at all at this point. If you're in negative views or heavy worries about the game at this point, I don't beleive a single thing about this game will convince you to play - it's just not for you.

If you're stipulating that if the game does not convince you then it will not convince anyone and the game will fail, I will stand as an exception to that along with all the others who decide the game is entertaining enough for their subscription.

At this point, the game is (or will be Monday) in beta. The core of its design and functionality has been set, and most arguments about gameplay aspects will have no effect on the release product. At this point, it is a discussion of speculation and details.

On a side note, where's Filthy? I was interested to see his reaction thus far and yet I've not seen a post.


Hyrist wrote:
I'm not going to argue the matter at all at this point. If you're in negative views or heavy worries about the game at this point, I don't beleive a single thing about this game will convince you to play - it's just not for you.

If you're stipulating that if the game does not convince you then it will not convince anyone and the game will fail, I will stand as an exception to that along with all the others who decide the game is entertaining enough for their subscription.

At this point, the game is (or will be Monday) in beta. The core of its design and functionality has been set, and most arguments about gameplay aspects will have no effect on the release product. At this point, it is a discussion of speculation and details.

On a side note, where's Filthy? I was interested to see his reaction thus far and yet I've not seen a post.


I know I've said a lot, so I'll forgive you for overlooking the fact that I WILL be giving ARR a chance. This is not about me convincing anyone that the game will fail--this is me making an educated prediction as a game designer.

And I agree with Xoie. The fact is, the game will succeed or fail on word of mouth. If the game is great, no skepticism now will overshadow that fact. Players will tell others about the game and they'll try it to decide for themselves. If anything, it will be that much more meaningful to the people I know that a skeptic like me actually manages to be enthusiastic for the game. If I like it, they will give it a shot.

As I said before, I see a lot of things being done well. That gives me hope and some small confidence that the design team knows what they're doing. However, none of these elements that I'm seeing done well are gameplay, and gameplay is what will make or break ARR. What will kill ARRItalic Text are die-hard fans who let poor design slide by without coming together to identify gameplay that is boring and grindy--if this happens, the design team will go ahead with it, and then all of those potential players who aren't FF diehards are going to leave the game.

This is an incredibly risky move. Most new MMOs fail because of poor gameplay design. XIV has already failed once. Gameplay design is not some really simple thing that would just go well if X didn't happen, or Y was there, or Z didn't do it's job. Lots of game designers just flatly don't know what to do. The stars could align in their favor and they still wouldn't get it right. I couldn't get it right in a game like this either without testing and refinement of the majority of content, so if that doesn't happen, I don't even need to play the game to know that it won't be right. If, as you say, arguments about gameplay aspects will have no effect on the product's release, then the game is probably doomed. Fortunately, I don't entirely agree with that assessment.

My guess is that a year from now, if that, people will be saying that the reason ARR failed was because the majority of their beta testers were loyal fans who couldn't give the dev team the actionable criticism that they needed. If you're going for mass appeal, you seek feedback from the masses. A player like yourself probably couldn't provide the necessary kind of feedback if they wanted to.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 Feb 22 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Xoie wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I'm not going to argue the matter at all at this point. If you're in negative views or heavy worries about the game at this point, I don't beleive a single thing about this game will convince you to play - it's just not for you.


That's just silly.

Pretty much everyone who hasn't been following FFXIV closely is going to be skeptical of ARR based on how poorly it did at the original launch. But everyone knew that. And Yoshida led the effort to try convincing these future skeptics to give FFXIV another shot. It was audacious. Overly optimistic, perhaps. But pessimists never accomplished anything.

What's being presented now is the culminations of those efforts, and they are not done yet. Everything that's being revealed is designed to change the hearts of the skeptical masses, if it's still not convincing enough, just wait. Give the crazy guy who refused to let the franchise roll over and die a chance. It's not very often you get to see this in the gaming industry, anymore.

What we don't need are misguided fans chasing people away for expressing reservations when those are the people Yoshida is trying to reach.



Seeming that was addressed directly at those who have been following the news closely and have consistantly commented in the negative ( to the point when even the moderators and admin acknowledge this) it's not silly at all. It's resignation.

There comes a point where a decission has to be made on behalf of the players that a particular individual or group will not be swayed by testimony. I have reached this point with certain individuals here and I would rather spend my efforts where they would be more fruitful. The game can speak for itself at this point. If someone cannot be convinced by gameplay and the continuing information that will flow from here on out, from official and unofficial channels, then my words will have little to no impact either.

In fact, it is they who should be discouraged, rather than the fans who have argued to the point of exhaustion on the same handful of issues repeatedly.

I want people to play this game. But I will not pander to those who have already decided they will not. Especially if their passtime seems to involve coming upwith whatever reasons to discourage others to. I'd rather speak to those who are truely on the edge or hopeful.

Beyond that, discussion comes with a muzzel these days by anyone with a Legacy Tag, which means the bulk of the Loadstone Forums, and media. It's like the mute arguing with the blind about the concept of beauty.
#76 Feb 22 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I think your attitude couldn't be more wrong, but I will agree on one point: You're wasting your time if you're trying to convince me otherwise. You don't have the information or the insight to do so.

Bear in mind, again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. It's not like I come here to convince people not to play the game, and I doubt I have a particularly meaningful influence insofar as that goes. I've stated many times that I hope I'm wrong to be pessimistic about it. I'm just discussing game design and FFXIV on a forum with whoever wants to talk about it. If you had some other purpose for talking to me, then yes, your efforts would be fruitless.

Also not sure how many times I need to state that I will be playing ARR.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#77 Feb 22 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Kachi wrote:
I think your attitude couldn't be more wrong, but I will agree on one point: You're wasting your time if you're trying to convince me otherwise. You don't have the information or the insight to do so.

Bear in mind, again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. It's not like I come here to convince people not to play the game, and I doubt I have a particularly meaningful influence insofar as that goes. I've stated many times that I hope I'm wrong to be pessimistic about it. I'm just discussing game design and FFXIV on a forum with whoever wants to talk about it. If you had some other purpose for talking to me, then yes, your efforts would be fruitless.

Also not sure how many times I need to state that I will be playing ARR.



Well I hope your experiences in Eorza aleviate your fears to the point where you feel excitment, then. But I'll not waste my breath defending a game this far into development. To some degree, it has to speak for itself from here on out. That includes Yoshi and crew not resting on their laurels after their curent media trip. If Alpha and Beta players must be muzzeled until they are absolutely ready I hope they have plenty of goodies still left in the bag to give out in the coming weeks to keep those looking for more info satafied.

But I tell you what. That Benchmark was bit of releif for me info and performance wise. (The latter being an isue that I have not upgraded my computer in five or so years. I'm just not purchase savvy enough to buy the parts on my own.)
#78 Feb 22 2013 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
970 posts
Stellar gameplay in all it's forms is not required to survive or do fine. Meeting the expected functional critera serves that. Uniqueness is not required to sell millions. Developing a cut above the rest serves that. But to be a game everyone remembers, the game must accomplish and bring together all aspects into a well developed package.

Relentless drive/fervor is the recipe for success in life, work, and love. It can be good like Martin Luthor King or bad like Adolf Hitler. Will the game become the messianic coming of mmorpgs because of that drive? Probably not, who knows? All I'm sure of is this company has been humbled drastically. They realize that if that past notion of entitled arrogance was not fixed. Their company faces possible turbulent times in the future of this IP. Firing all the staff and closing shop may have saved money. But in that case nothing could be done to fix past mistakes. You can see the dedication to at least try. Yoshi looks like a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders, his body looks like it aged ten years since he took the reins. But he didn't shoulder it alone. He has a team of people who have that rare second chance. And a body of players that encourage or garrote him.

Now until the dust settles with the game releasing and attempting to find it's place. Neither you or I can do more than worry or speculate on it's future. But from what we've seen recently. One can not say the drive is not there. It's for this reason alone I feel the game will not die anytime soon. Regardless of what happens, all of us have devoted a piece of our heart & time to this journey. And anything that has those two factors can't be a bad thing.
#79 Feb 22 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I'm not going to argue the matter at all at this point. If you're in negative views or heavy worries about the game at this point, I don't beleive a single thing about this game will convince you to play - it's just not for you.


That's just silly.

Pretty much everyone who hasn't been following FFXIV closely is going to be skeptical of ARR based on how poorly it did at the original launch. But everyone knew that. And Yoshida led the effort to try convincing these future skeptics to give FFXIV another shot. It was audacious. Overly optimistic, perhaps. But pessimists never accomplished anything.

What's being presented now is the culminations of those efforts, and they are not done yet. Everything that's being revealed is designed to change the hearts of the skeptical masses, if it's still not convincing enough, just wait. Give the crazy guy who refused to let the franchise roll over and die a chance. It's not very often you get to see this in the gaming industry, anymore.

What we don't need are misguided fans chasing people away for expressing reservations when those are the people Yoshida is trying to reach.



Seeming that was addressed directly at those who have been following the news closely and have consistantly commented in the negative ( to the point when even the moderators and admin acknowledge this) it's not silly at all. It's resignation.

There comes a point where a decission has to be made on behalf of the players that a particular individual or group will not be swayed by testimony. I have reached this point with certain individuals here and I would rather spend my efforts where they would be more fruitful. The game can speak for itself at this point. If someone cannot be convinced by gameplay and the continuing information that will flow from here on out, from official and unofficial channels, then my words will have little to no impact either.

In fact, it is they who should be discouraged, rather than the fans who have argued to the point of exhaustion on the same handful of issues repeatedly.

I want people to play this game. But I will not pander to those who have already decided they will not. Especially if their passtime seems to involve coming upwith whatever reasons to discourage others to. I'd rather speak to those who are truely on the edge or hopeful.

Beyond that, discussion comes with a muzzel these days by anyone with a Legacy Tag, which means the bulk of the Loadstone Forums, and media. It's like the mute arguing with the blind about the concept of beauty.


You'll never convince Kachi, it's impossible, but that's not the point. The whole point of a forum, at least in its purest sense, is for two sides to present their arguments for the unconvinced masses, and for them to decide based on what they've heard. By telling him to go away, you're really giving him the win, in the sense that people on the fence are going to think either FFXIV is indefensible, or you just don't want non-fanbois around.
#80 Feb 22 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Not my intention. But to say that the game speaks for itself at this point. It has turned a sufficient number of heads to look at it in a new light instead of a suspicious eye. The pessimism can suffer the scrutiny of the game-play, rather than the other way around.

An even if all that was invalid. Any meaningful discussion with those who do have more knowledge of the game would be hampered by NDA
#81 Feb 22 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
Hyrist wrote:
The latter being an isue that I have not upgraded my computer in five or so years. I'm just not purchase savvy enough to buy the parts on my own.
Off topic, but you might want to refer to this if you're not sure of what to aim for on PC upgrades. I built a PC with some of kalg's reccomendations in mind and it easily scored a little over 8K on the benchmark at max settings so there is some value to his/her advice.
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#82 Feb 22 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Personally I would prefer if my skepticism were only used constructively, rather than to convince people that they shouldn't play the game. I would much rather other players recognize my concerns as valid and actionable, and use that to vocalize meaningful feedback to the development team. That's the only way any of this makes the game better.

But having said that, that's not why I come here, not even a little. At the end of the day, it's just a video game (from a franchise that I love) and I enjoy using it as a case study in game design principles. So while I would hope my skeptical words are taken as precautionary constructive criticism and nothing more, I really don't have a dog in the fight other than the pleasure of conversation.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#83 Feb 22 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
So on one side we got somebody arguing/pointing out that X or Y could be an issue because we have yet to see any to the contrary, and on the other side we got somebody arguing that X or Y cannot be disclosed because NDA and to have faith because yoshi.....

Feels like 1.0 beta to me Smiley: rolleyes
____________________________
MUTED
#84 Feb 22 2013 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Yep, Kachi was actually beginning to look like a normal person, and naturally Ostia has to take up the slack in haterade distribution. Sounds bout right.

Actually what I said Ostia is that the game at this point pretty much has to sell itself. Even if testiomony was available, those who are not currently excited won't be swayed by words. Some individuals have concerns to fall back upon when their concerns are aleviated. We've seen issue after issue be addressed as information comes to light.

Also, if this feels like Beta 1.0... I'd check your pill subscriptions or something because there was absolutely zero transparency for 1.0, through its entire development really. ARR's been more open than most western developers at this point and this is ignoring the fact that we're talking about Square Enix, one of the most tight lipped companies in the video game industry.

So no, this isn't a "it's just Beta" excuse. (The public annoucment was Beta starts the 25th btw) Wait and see for yourself. In the meanwhile, read up on all the interview data you've been ignoring. There have been other, more legitimate issues raised than the ones I've seen here.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 12:31am by Hyrist
#85 Feb 22 2013 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I was starting to look normal? Really? I've got to figure out how to do that more consistently.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 Feb 23 2013 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
***
3,530 posts
Ostia wrote:
... and on the other side we got somebody arguing that X or Y cannot be disclosed because NDA and to have faith because yoshi.....


Hey, I didn't trust my life savings to this guy to not drink the fruit punch at the end.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#87 Feb 24 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Ostia wrote:
... and on the other side we got somebody arguing that X or Y cannot be disclosed because NDA and to have faith because yoshi.....


Hey, I didn't trust my life savings to this guy to not drink spike the fruit punch at the end.

Fixed that for you.

To make things clear. Yoshida never sold me on the game so much as the business model he's adapted and hopes to spread through the company. The game could flop and I'd still back him as an individual. However, at this point, I highly doubt that it will be genuinely poor game. It may not be a total blockbuster but in my view it does not need to be.

Still, I do hope they are widely successful, as doing so may kick the rest of the company in the rear to stop being so seclusive.
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 106 All times are in CDT
Vaaniks, Anonymous Guests (105)