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#1 Feb 22 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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An interview with Yoshi-P.

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#2 Feb 22 2013 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I am playing GW2 as we speak, and i can tell you that it is a pretty good game. It's not FF good, but i like it better than some of the other games i have tried. If Yoshi-P is looking at this game for a little inspiration, i'm ok with that. We all know (and trust i believe) that he is all about the players, and i really think that if 2.0 sucks, that he would spend the next year fixing it again.

I think ARR looks great, and i can't wait to try it. If for some reason it isn't any good, I'm confident that Yoshi-P will fix it. I really like this guy, and what he is doing for this game, and industry.
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#3 Feb 22 2013 at 11:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#4 Feb 22 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


So you're saying you have no idea how XIV will borrow from GW2...got it.
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#5 Feb 22 2013 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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I see your point, but i don't think they are modeling FF ARR after GW2, just like they aren't modeling it after WOW. Inspiration means they have gotten some ideas from these games. Let's face it, there isn't much else to get inspiration from. Most MMO's have done poorly in the market.
When you are a top gaming company, you have to look at what makes the good ones work. The trick is to not copy what you find, but to incorporate it into your game.

I don't think Yoshi-P will turn FF ARR into GW2, but he will probably take a few things from GW2 to make FF ARR better.
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#6 Feb 23 2013 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


So you're saying you have no idea how XIV will borrow from GW2...got it.


Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


So you're saying you have no idea how XIV will borrow from GW2...got it.


Well of course that's what I'm saying.

If you pay attention, pretty much everything I say can be reduced to, "I don't know what they're going to do, but it's statistically unlikely that they'll do it well." I just change around the words to make it sound different.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 10:02pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#7 Feb 23 2013 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Teneleven wrote:
When you are a top gaming company, you have to look at what makes the good ones work. The trick is to not copy what you find, but to incorporate it into your game.


Take something that works well, modify and improve it to fit within the constraints of what feels right in your own game and deliver. Most MMOs attempt to try and be unique, but they forget that MMOs have been around long enough that people expect a certain standard these days.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#8 Feb 23 2013 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin.



Actually, I think where GW2 excels most is being a very polished game with a more action-oriented battle system and different styles of quests. At first, it feels very new and different.

I think one of the bigger weaknesses of GW2 is its incentive structure. Basically, there are no meaningful incentives for non-hardcore players... and from what I understand, there aren't many worthwhile incentives for hardcore players, either.

The essence of Guild Wars 2 can be summarized by reaching "vistas" in the game (for those who don't play GW2, the developers place vista points throughout the game, and you must reach these in order to "complete" different maps). Anyway, you go through all this trouble to reach the vista, at which point you're given a cool, pulling-back cutscene of the area you're in. It's pretty and all, but in the end, your character doesn't benefit from reaching the vista, and the entire activity is over in a matter of minutes.

FFXIV, on the other hand, offered things like the Materia system, which gives players much more meaningful, lasting goals to work toward over time. All the gamers I know consider that a strength of FFXIV, whereas the incentives/character progression of GW2 was kind of a joke.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 11:40pm by Thayos
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#9 Feb 23 2013 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin.



Actually, I think where GW2 excels most is being a very polished game with a more action-oriented battle system and a different style of question.

I think one of the bigger weaknesses of GW2 is its incentive structure. Basically, there are no meaningful incentives for non-hardcore players... and from what I understand, there aren't many worthwhile incentives for hardcore players, either.

The essence of Guild Wars 2 can be summarized by reaching "vistas" in the game (for those who don't play GW2, the developers place vista points throughout the game, and you must reach these in order to "complete" different maps). Anyway, you go through all this trouble to reach the vista, at which point you're given a cool, pulling-back cutscene of the area you're in. It's pretty and all, but in the end, your character doesn't benefit from reaching the vista, and the entire activity is over in a matter of minutes.

FFXIV, on the other hand, offered things like the Materia system, which gives players much more meaningful, lasting goals to work toward over time. All the gamers I know consider that a strength of FFXIV, whereas the incentives/character progression of GW2 was kind of a joke.


Thayos wrote:
Quote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin.



Actually, I think where GW2 excels most is being a very polished game with a more action-oriented battle system and a different style of question.

I think one of the bigger weaknesses of GW2 is its incentive structure. Basically, there are no meaningful incentives for non-hardcore players... and from what I understand, there aren't many worthwhile incentives for hardcore players, either.

The essence of Guild Wars 2 can be summarized by reaching "vistas" in the game (for those who don't play GW2, the developers place vista points throughout the game, and you must reach these in order to "complete" different maps). Anyway, you go through all this trouble to reach the vista, at which point you're given a cool, pulling-back cutscene of the area you're in. It's pretty and all, but in the end, your character doesn't benefit from reaching the vista, and the entire activity is over in a matter of minutes.

FFXIV, on the other hand, offered things like the Materia system, which gives players much more meaningful, lasting goals to work toward over time. All the gamers I know consider that a strength of FFXIV, whereas the incentives/character progression of GW2 was kind of a joke.


When I say that the incentive structure was one of GW2's strengths, bear in mind that I mean this only to show just how important incentive structures really are. Almost everything in the game had an incentive--map completion. THAT is the essence of GW2. Every zone is essentially the same in this regard... it's incredibly formulaic (which itself is not great). Do each quest once, visit the points of interest, etc., and you're rewarded with an area clear goal. However, the use of -equipment- as incentives was just awful--easily one of the worst things about the game, and where the incentive system eventually fails in the endgame altogether. As I said, it was unsustainable. So yes, there are major problems with GW2's incentive structure, and I've called them out at least 20 times on this very forum.

And having said that, they -still- do it better than most other MMOs in the early game. The fact is, it didn't matter that they dropped the ball in the end, because they rewarded players effectively in the early game, which was what generated so much hype in the game, which was what got them the box sales that they were depending on. So you have to give them that. I'd give GW2 like a 5/10 on this, which doesn't say much for other MMOs.

As for the action-oriented battle system, meh. It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability). The cooldown pacing kept players busy, but it also precluded cooperative play via chat. It wasn't particularly revolutionary and it became boring pretty quickly. And again, still better than most MMOs.


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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#10 Feb 23 2013 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability).

Don't mash me because I never played GW2, but isn't a player initiated 'split second of invulnerability' a dodge as far as game mechanics goes?
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#11 Feb 23 2013 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability).

Don't mash me because I never played GW2, but isn't a player initiated 'split second of invulnerability' a dodge as far as game mechanics goes?


FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability).

Don't mash me because I never played GW2, but isn't a player initiated 'split second of invulnerability' a dodge as far as game mechanics goes?


The direction that you dodge, and whether or not you actually escaped the range of the attack are irrelevant. Aside from that, it's really not much different from giving everyone a hotbar ability that grants a second of invulnerability. I wouldn't really call it action mechanics.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#12 Feb 23 2013 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
The direction that you dodge, and whether or not you actually escaped the range of the attack are irrelevant. Aside from that, it's really not much different from giving everyone a hotbar ability that grants a second of invulnerability. I wouldn't really call it action mechanics.


Well, there is the obvious difference that location is affected differently. Giving someone 1s of immunity with no parameters is different from having 1s of immunity but only when "rolling" in a given direction. There's also the secondary effect of being forced to move. Rolling the wrong way can be punishing, especially since you can't roll infinitely. Direction can matter.



Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:43am by DevilFruit
#13 Feb 23 2013 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Teneleven wrote:
I am playing GW2 as we speak, and i can tell you that it is a pretty good game. It's not FF good, but i like it better than some of the other games i have tried. If Yoshi-P is looking at this game for a little inspiration, i'm ok with that. We all know (and trust i believe) that he is all about the players, and i really think that if 2.0 sucks, that he would spend the next year fixing it again.

I think ARR looks great, and i can't wait to try it. If for some reason it isn't any good, I'm confident that Yoshi-P will fix it. I really like this guy, and what he is doing for this game, and industry.


Oh goodness, I hope he doesn't base ARR on GW2. I purchased the game and played it for around 6 hours the first day and then put it down for a week. I played it again for around 30 minutes and decided it just isn't that great. I honestly didn't think the story was compelling enough to get me to continue. I also didn't like the battle system. I'd rather spend a little bit more time killing mobs and use a little bit of strategy instead of button mash my way through them and heal myself every so often. I also didn't like how I had to use the mouse to move around. Forgive me if I could have changed this, but it put me off so much about the game I didn't even care to try to find out if I could change it or not. I sincerely hope the battle system is not like GW2. Give me 1.0 with no lag and I'll be a big old happy panda. Give me 1.0 battle system with no lag and I'll get used to everything else as long as I still have my 1.0 control scheme. I didn't like the GW2 UI either. They barely had a main menu. I don't want to have to memorize 6 buttons for each of the places I'd like to go. I'd much rather have a main menu and be able to go from there.
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#14 Feb 23 2013 at 5:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachi wrote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


One thing I think you might be missing here is they knew they were doing that when they made the game. It doesn't have a subscription fee because as they said, its a game you can play and have a lot of fun, but you can then but down for a while until something that interests you comes out. They actually knew and planned it this way. Its definitely a different system, and I don't think XIV will copy that completely as it intends to be a subscription game and they want people to always have fun stuff to keep logging in.

GW2 is definitely reaching for a bit different demographic, and it's not entirely for me. I want a game I'm a bit more involved in and I think your average FFXI player does too. It doesn't mean they did bad though, just they did differently.
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#15 Feb 23 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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DevilFruit wrote:
Kachi wrote:
The direction that you dodge, and whether or not you actually escaped the range of the attack are irrelevant. Aside from that, it's really not much different from giving everyone a hotbar ability that grants a second of invulnerability. I wouldn't really call it action mechanics.


Well, there is the obvious difference that location is affected differently. Giving someone 1s of immunity with no parameters is different from having 1s of immunity but only when "rolling" in a given direction. There's also the secondary effect of being forced to move. Rolling the wrong way can be punishing, especially since you can't roll infinitely. Direction can matter.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:43am by DevilFruit


That's honestly such a minor difference that I really don't feel it's relevant. You can roll straight into the monster every time if you want to. The point being, it's not some revolutionary action mechanic. It's tantamount to a hotbar ability you can use while in motion. A 1 second immunity and speed bonus that everyone gets. That aside, it's about the same as any other modern MMO.

digitalcraft wrote:
Kachi wrote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


One thing I think you might be missing here is they knew they were doing that when they made the game. It doesn't have a subscription fee because as they said, its a game you can play and have a lot of fun, but you can then but down for a while until something that interests you comes out. They actually knew and planned it this way. Its definitely a different system, and I don't think XIV will copy that completely as it intends to be a subscription game and they want people to always have fun stuff to keep logging in.

GW2 is definitely reaching for a bit different demographic, and it's not entirely for me. I want a game I'm a bit more involved in and I think your average FFXI player does too. It doesn't mean they did bad though, just they did differently.


I wasn't missing it at all. I think I said the same thing a post or two up, not to mention several other times in the past. I don't feel that this somehow makes it any less of a design flaw if you're comparing it apples to apples with another MMO, but GW2 is definitely no apple. Besides which, it's not good business for them either since they're still collecting revenue from their online store. It's just not devastating to them the way it would be for FFXIV.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Feb 23 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability).

Don't mash me because I never played GW2, but isn't a player initiated 'split second of invulnerability' a dodge as far as game mechanics goes?


The direction that you dodge, and whether or not you actually escaped the range of the attack are irrelevant. Aside from that, it's really not much different from giving everyone a hotbar ability that grants a second of invulnerability. I wouldn't really call it action mechanics.


The split second of invulerability differs depending on the circumstances surronding it. As a Mesmer player I can intricate the difference between the invulerabilities to you quite well, because I do, in fact, have one button abilities that give me moments of invulerability, several of them.

Dodge is as the gameplay describes, you evade something. The direction, in fact, does matter, as most attacks in the game are actually coded as area of effect attacks. The exception being ranged attacks, which are a point to point. A sword swing will hit everything in the arc. This becomes much more important in the large scale enemy attacks that hey, you can dodge, but if you did not dodge out of the arc of the attack, you evaded one check to get smacked by the next attack check in the strike.

This makes the movement of the dodge mechanic very important, as you dodge out of the way of the swing of the blow, even if it grazes you you're good because of the invulerability frame, but if you dodged the correct direction you'll miss the other attach checks too. This works with all area of affect attacks.

It's important to differentiate this from other invulerability skills - like Blurred Frenzy. Blurred Frenzy gives me a full 2 seconds of invulerability while I attack, but I'm rooted in place which means someone who drops an AoE on me forces me to have to push an evade or other invulerability skills to try to get me out of the damage. Most dodge mechanics in video games come with invulerability frames and motions so I'm not sure what you're trying to play here saying it's not consitered a dodge.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 9:24am by Hyrist
#17 Feb 23 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
If you pay attention, pretty much everything I say can be reduced to, "I don't know what they're going to do, but it's statistically unlikely that they'll do it well." I just change around the words to make it sound different.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2013 10:02pm by Kachi


Smiley: laugh

Fair enough Kachi.
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#18 Feb 23 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Guild Wars 2 accomplished what it set out to do. I think the flack it's getting from mmo players used to traditional style mmos is that there is not a a notion of longterm incentives they are used to. It doesn't add in the timesinks and such. It's a solid game if you view it as it is.

I think of it sort of like buying a single player game, yet it is an mmo and offers more replayability/content than your typical standard offline rpg. A comparison would be sort of like let's say you buy Dragon Age 1. Dragon Age 2 would release within the same universe but add more content/areas. Then Dragon Age 3 releases and it's the same affair. And so on and so forth. Each expansion adds to the original game versus creating a brand new universe for each outing.

If you view it like that and the game doesn't require payment from me in between expansions. Then Guild Wars 2 is very much worth the box price I pay for it. I play it as much as I want, put it down and play offline/online games on my console. Then if they release a hefty expansion that interest me. I buy it and continue. They have to bring the A game to the table each expansion since that is Guild Wars 2 model.

XIV is a sub based game. And with that comes the need for timesinks and longterm incentives. Ignore that completely and players will not stay subbed. Go overboard and you resign your playerbase to a small niche crowd. Or the see saw sub and unsub cycle.

So far only WoW has found that perfect balance that is evident in their sub base. XIV and Guild Wars 2 are two different models with two different strategies. Comparing the two is assinine. In my opinion XIV should aim for their longterm incentives to be less rigid than XI but more rigid than WoW for the greatest chance at success.
#19 Feb 23 2013 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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swisa wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
I am playing GW2 as we speak, and i can tell you that it is a pretty good game. It's not FF good, but i like it better than some of the other games i have tried. If Yoshi-P is looking at this game for a little inspiration, i'm ok with that. We all know (and trust i believe) that he is all about the players, and i really think that if 2.0 sucks, that he would spend the next year fixing it again.

I think ARR looks great, and i can't wait to try it. If for some reason it isn't any good, I'm confident that Yoshi-P will fix it. I really like this guy, and what he is doing for this game, and industry.


Oh goodness, I hope he doesn't base ARR on GW2. I purchased the game and played it for around 6 hours the first day and then put it down for a week. I played it again for around 30 minutes and decided it just isn't that great. I honestly didn't think the story was compelling enough to get me to continue. I also didn't like the battle system. I'd rather spend a little bit more time killing mobs and use a little bit of strategy instead of button mash my way through them and heal myself every so often. I also didn't like how I had to use the mouse to move around. Forgive me if I could have changed this, but it put me off so much about the game I didn't even care to try to find out if I could change it or not. I sincerely hope the battle system is not like GW2. Give me 1.0 with no lag and I'll be a big old happy panda. Give me 1.0 battle system with no lag and I'll get used to everything else as long as I still have my 1.0 control scheme. I didn't like the GW2 UI either. They barely had a main menu. I don't want to have to memorize 6 buttons for each of the places I'd like to go. I'd much rather have a main menu and be able to go from there.


FF XIV is based on the final Fantasy world, not GW2 lol. I was just pointing out that taking good ideas from other games can work. For instance, games like Rift and GW2 have spontaneous world events that pop up, and any player can jump in and battle for some rewards. FF XIV has a similar system already.
I wasn't meaning to glorify GW2 in any way, just that i like some aspects of the game.
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#20 Feb 23 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the intention is to make XIV an amalgamation of (hopefully) everything that works in MMO's with the Final Fantasy tradition of great story lines and cinematics. We were chatting about this in IRC last night. I think one thing I really liked about XI's storytelling is that all missions, and quite a few quests, involve some kind of cutscene, which to me is more immersive than just a text box above the head of an NPC.
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#21 Feb 23 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
I think the intention is to make XIV an amalgamation of (hopefully) everything that works in MMO's with the Final Fantasy tradition of great story lines and cinematics. We were chatting about this in IRC last night. I think one thing I really liked about XI's storytelling is that all missions, and quite a few quests, involve some kind of cutscene, which to me is more immersive than just a text box above the head of an NPC.

For me it's not just about story and cutscenes. Bioware does that well too. Japanese rpgs have this certain flavor and aesthetic. I can't explain it
but it exist and I love it. Squaresoft in it's glory days were the trendsetters. They would add systems with depth and uniqueness overlaying the beautiful story, world, music, and cgi. Final Fantasy is probably the only IP that introduced many new concepts where I enjoyed all of them.

Every quests and side mission wouldn't have clear cut signs on where to go next. But you rarely got lost enough to get stuck from advancing. I usually wouldn't search online for stuff until after my initial playthrough. The discovery of things on my own is what absorbed me into the journey.
With XI I was torn. I loved it and hated it depending on the circumstance. You could flat out get stuck without researching a great deal.

Off note: I think the new controller interface is going to set the the standard for hotbar type rpgs. And will be streamlined and improved upon as time goes by.
#22 Feb 23 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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My Wings of the Goddess static finally finished up our main missions last week, and now we're going back and doing the other two cities we skipped. One thing SE did right with XI (and which they have said they won't do with XIV, which is a shame) is having all the stuff be doable on one primary character. So we knocked out all the Windurst missions to be able to do the main scenario (a long slog that took us four months of chipping our way through) and now we can just go back and power level through Bastok and San d'Oria, since the waits have been reduced/eliminated as we're past all the roadblocks (main scenarios.)

I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.
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#23 Feb 23 2013 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


How many people do you honestly believe on a video game forum (albeit an MMO forum which more than likely has a slightly higher class of gamer) know who Skinner is?
#24 Feb 23 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
My Wings of the Goddess static finally finished up our main missions last week, and now we're going back and doing the other two cities we skipped. One thing SE did right with XI (and which they have said they won't do with XIV, which is a shame) is having all the stuff be doable on one primary character. So we knocked out all the Windurst missions to be able to do the main scenario (a long slog that took us four months of chipping our way through) and now we can just go back and power level through Bastok and San d'Oria, since the waits have been reduced/eliminated as we're past all the roadblocks (main scenarios.)

I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Maybe they'll loosen the restrictions on that, or was there a specific reason they were limiting people to one grand company?
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#25 Feb 23 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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I could understand a limitation for it at first. But they should lift the restriction after six months or so - instant new content injection and they don't really have to add anything. Smiley: tongue
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#26 Feb 23 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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je355804 wrote:
Kachi wrote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


How many people do you honestly believe on a video game forum (albeit an MMO forum which more than likely has a slightly higher class of gamer) know who Skinner is?


You'd be surprised how many of us have more than a passing knowledge of video game mechanics.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#27 Feb 23 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
catwho wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Kachi wrote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


How many people do you honestly believe on a video game forum (albeit an MMO forum which more than likely has a slightly higher class of gamer) know who Skinner is?


You'd be surprised how many of us have more than a passing knowledge of video game mechanics.


Of course! Who doesn't know that guy:
http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/skinner3.gif
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#28 Feb 23 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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The limitation on Grand Companies and your alegiences to them is temproary. I wanted to clear that up.

Only Free Companies need to decide what national banner they have to be under on a permanent basis, and you can always switch by breaking up and reforming.

I'm not sure it will effect that path you take in your national questline (if there is such a thing) as far as going back an experience those starter quests for each nation. But you can experience grand company quests from any nation by rotating around grand companies.

Just keep in mind that you can't pick and chose gear from different grand companies. Changing Grand Companies turns in your previous company's exclusive gear.

That was my understanding of it when it was spoken about in the live letter before this one. (Or was it a dev post, I don't remember. It was a lenghty one.)
#29Poubelle, Posted: Feb 23 2013 at 3:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm surprised Yoshi-P & co. are still bashing 1.0 as a theme for their ARR campaign.
#30 Feb 23 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
That's honestly such a minor difference that I really don't feel it's relevant. You can roll straight into the monster every time if you want to. The point being, it's not some revolutionary action mechanic. It's tantamount to a hotbar ability you can use while in motion. A 1 second immunity and speed bonus that everyone gets. That aside, it's about the same as any other modern MMO.


Maybe you don't feel that it is, but it is actually different, which was my point. I also never claimed it was some revolutionary mechanic. I was arguing against the parallels you were making, which are not actually as straight nor as parallel as you make them sound. I'm sure given the option, everyone would rather have a speed boost and 1s of immunity over a one direction/distance "roll", and that's because they are different, and one is actually better than the other.
#31 Feb 23 2013 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's not talking to us.

He's talking to the people who only see things like that from gaming news sites like IGN. He's talking to the people that don't visit fansite forums like Zam. He's talking to the people that aren't following the game closely. Probably the last those people heard about FFXIV was how badly 1.0 sucked, and he has to help them move beyond that before he can talk about why they should care about 2.0.
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#32 Feb 23 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably the biggest obstacle Yoshi-P faces is convincing all the people who played, heard of, or read about FFXIV and the terrible state it was in when it launched, to actually come back and play ARR. People like to be told that they were right, and that's basically what the 1.0 bashing does, only this time its from the higher ups in SE, which I would suppose mean more to said players. Once he has their attention, then he can proceed to talk about all the changes.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:29pm by DevilFruit
#33 Feb 23 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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DevilFruit wrote:
Probably the biggest obstacle Yoshi-P faces is convincing all the people who played, heard of, or read about FFXIV and the terrible state it was in when it launched, to actually come back and play ARR. People like to be told that they were right, and that's basically what the 1.0 bashing does, only this time its from the higher ups in SE, which I would suppose mean more to said players. Once he has their attention, then he can proceed to talk about all the changes.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:29pm by DevilFruit



It's also going to require some evangelizing from the 1.0 players to their friends. Not counting the friends I have who still play XI with me and the ones who tried 1.0, I can think of roughly a dozen MMO playing friends who'd be willing to give ARR a chance if I really, really sold it to them. They skipped over 1.0 because of all the bad press (honestly? I was in that group until spring 2012 when Statealchemist convinced me to give it a go).

If 2.0 doesn't deliver, I won't bug em about it. But if it's as awesomesauce as I'm hoping it is, I'm going to be preaching to them all so hard to give ARR a shot.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#34 Feb 23 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's important to differentiate this from other invulerability skills - like Blurred Frenzy. Blurred Frenzy gives me a full 2 seconds of invulerability while I attack, but I'm rooted in place which means someone who drops an AoE on me forces me to have to push an evade or other invulerability skills to try to get me out of the damage. Most dodge mechanics in video games come with invulerability frames and motions so I'm not sure what you're trying to play here saying it's not consitered a dodge.


I think you've jumped in late in the conversation and are missing my larger point: GW2 is not some revolutionary action-based combat. That's all I was saying. The dodging mechanic is the main action-mechanic, and it's nothing incredibly innovative. I haven't played either of them, but I would wager that Aion/Blade and Soul are at least equally action-oriented.

Quote:
Guild Wars 2 accomplished what it set out to do. I think the flack it's getting from mmo players used to traditional style mmos is that there is not a a notion of longterm incentives they are used to. It doesn't add in the timesinks and such. It's a solid game if you view it as it is.


I agree with you on the business end of things, and maybe I'm just being oldschool about this, but to me the objective of an MMO is to create a living, lasting world. Therefor, even though GW2 was a financial success, it was not a success at living up to the ideals of the MMO.

Quote:
I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


I completely agree. That was one of my major criticisms of 1.0, and for that matter, GW2. They added so much fake choice to the game and ended up creating a lot of content that you could only experience if you made 9 different characters. Surprise, surprise, most people don't want to do that. Fortunately, it doesn't seem like they'll make that mistake twice.

Quote:
How many people do you honestly believe on a video game forum (albeit an MMO forum which more than likely has a slightly higher class of gamer) know who Skinner is?


I assume most people who took their Intro to Psych course in college have at least heard about Skinner, and I see blogs/posts drawing those parallels quite often. I don't always actively go out of my way to avoid using terms that other people won't know... they have the power of the internet at their fingertips.
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#35 Feb 23 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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So far only WoW has found that perfect balance that is evident in their sub base. XIV and Guild Wars 2 are two different models with two different strategies. Comparing the two is assinine. In my opinion XIV should aim for their longterm incentives to be less rigid than XI but more rigid than WoW for the greatest chance at success.


Well said

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#36 Feb 23 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:



I can think of roughly a dozen one MMO playing friends


Where do you meet all these people that play MMOs irl?

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#37 Feb 23 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
DevilFruit wrote:
Probably the biggest obstacle Yoshi-P faces is convincing all the people who played, heard of, or read about FFXIV and the terrible state it was in when it launched, to actually come back and play ARR. People like to be told that they were right, and that's basically what the 1.0 bashing does, only this time its from the higher ups in SE, which I would suppose mean more to said players. Once he has their attention, then he can proceed to talk about all the changes.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:29pm by DevilFruit



It's also going to require some evangelizing from the 1.0 players to their friends. Not counting the friends I have who still play XI with me and the ones who tried 1.0, I can think of roughly a dozen MMO playing friends who'd be willing to give ARR a chance if I really, really sold it to them. They skipped over 1.0 because of all the bad press (honestly? I was in that group until spring 2012 when Statealchemist convinced me to give it a go).

If 2.0 doesn't deliver, I won't bug em about it. But if it's as awesomesauce as I'm hoping it is, I'm going to be preaching to them all so hard to give ARR a shot.


Where is he anyways? I hope he comes back and tries ARR out. He did an excellent job keeping this database updated. I always came here for info until he stopped. After that I had to use other resources. :(
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#38 Feb 23 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I saw him around Alpha time, but haven't talked with him sense unfortunately.

I'm going to do my best to keep things updated, but it sounds like SE is going to provide all the information you need on their site, so ours will really only be for wiki/discussions on items on our DB. That's why I'm looking at getting other things that can distinguish us from other sites (add-on database among other ideas).
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#39 Feb 23 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I saw him around Alpha time, but haven't talked with him sense unfortunately.

I'm going to do my best to keep things updated, but it sounds like SE is going to provide all the information you need on their site, so ours will really only be for wiki/discussions on items on our DB. That's why I'm looking at getting other things that can distinguish us from other sites (add-on database among other ideas).


I can't imagine how much of a job in of itself it will be just to keep everything updated after changing everything over. Being a hub for the ARR add-ons is a great idea. I hope SE lets you do it.
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#40 Feb 23 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
catwho wrote:



I can think of roughly a dozen one MMO playing friends


Where do you meet all these people that play MMOs irl?



Anime club.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#41 Feb 23 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability).

Don't mash me because I never played GW2, but isn't a player initiated 'split second of invulnerability' a dodge as far as game mechanics goes?


The direction that you dodge, and whether or not you actually escaped the range of the attack are irrelevant. Aside from that, it's really not much different from giving everyone a hotbar ability that grants a second of invulnerability. I wouldn't really call it action mechanics.

Again, I can't say for certain because I don't play it but...

Using TERA as an example because it's what I'm more familiar with, if a mob initiates an attack that swings at you several times as it moves in your direction, dodging anywhere but directly to the side or through the mob(if possible as some dodges circumvent unit collision for their active duration) will result in you taking damage. If a mob initiates an attack that does AoE in a small radius around it, you will take damage if you dodge in any direction toward it if the duration of the damage lasts longer than the active part of your evade. There are also many abilities that are used by mobs that are large enough that you can only avoid part of the duration of the damage as your evade will not allow you to completely escape the area of effect.

As with many games with this type of mechanic, you have periods of startup or windup where you are vulnerable, periods of activity where you would take no damage and a recovery period where you will again take damage without the ability to move, attack or dodge again if you have another similar mechanic. Perhaps GW2 is doinitwrong and again, I can't say for sure because I don't play it, but these mechanics generally work like that due to how combat varies between PvE and PvP. It works out really well in TERA.


Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 10:33pm by FilthMcNasty
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#42 Feb 24 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I saw him around Alpha time, but haven't talked with him sense unfortunately.

I'm going to do my best to keep things updated, but it sounds like SE is going to provide all the information you need on their site, so ours will really only be for wiki/discussions on items on our DB. That's why I'm looking at getting other things that can distinguish us from other sites (add-on database among other ideas).

Other things?
Arr Facebook
Youtube Hub(User uploaded video journals)
Cutscene and soundtrack browser
Status page(Simulate lynx, xbox live, psn. Only users need to update status here manually)
FATE tracker/Forecast
Web Comic ARR themed
Fan art section

I think it would be cool for a fansite to explore the social/fun side of things. Especially when you said SE is covering most of the info stuff.
#43 Feb 24 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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#44 Feb 24 2013 at 11:09 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Doesn't fit in with the mainstream MMO. That's all ARR is for after all.
#45 Feb 24 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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and theyre not taking theyre fans for granted by making it more like WoW and less like what FFXI was? only difference between ARR and FFXIV is that itll actually be good, playable and not totally suck a opposed to being GREAT like it could be.. which is odd seeing as SE is one developer known for doing something others dont/havent instead of trying to emulate others (i.e SE came out with the FIRST mmorpg that didnt look like crap and had a story that played out like and was as good as a single player RPG)

now they wanna be like WoW in hope sto get more ppl buying
#46 Feb 24 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
catwho wrote:
I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Doesn't fit in with the mainstream MMO. That's all ARR is for after all.


Theonehio wrote:
catwho wrote:
I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Doesn't fit in with the mainstream MMO. That's all ARR is for after all.


This isn't really a strength of the mainstream MMO, though. In the best case scenario, your players only feel the need to create one character. That fosters high attachment. Otherwise your players reach a point where they decide that maybe it's time to start another character, like they're supposed to, and they never quite get around to it. Or they do, and only play the new character a few times before quitting.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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