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#52 Feb 26 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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Valid criticism is fine. It just needs to be detailed.

"The framerates in this YouTube video are awful" is not really valid criticism. YouTube compresses things so bad it's often difficult to tell what to blame, the website or the original source.

"The frame rates in the PS3 section of the video are visibly slower than the frame rates in the comparable PC sections of the video" is a valid complaint, and one few people will disagree with. "Awful" is subjective and opinion. "Visibly slower" is objective and could be verified not only visually but with video tools if someone was so inclined.

People need to stop posting opinions as if they were facts. (Opinions are of course welcome too, as long as they are not presented as facts.)
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#53 Feb 26 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I will and often do point out my dissatisfaction with the combat system, but who doesn't?
It was a lose-lose situation from the start. The point of the combat system is to kill off that discrepancy between melee and mages by putting both on equal footing and thus fascilitate PvP, because otherwise mages would rule PvP. If they keep TP build up as it was in 1.0 they wouldn't meet that goal. Going the "abilities with individual cooldowns" and giving each class their own unique resource system like WoW et al would mean you'd have an army of FFXI purists crying that they got rid of TP and further idiotic drivel of it taking away from the game's Final Fantasy identity. They tried going down the middle with their approach to TP and those rules for spells/abilities they mentioned in the FF 25th anniversary panel.


I'm not sure that PvP being the cause is a fair assessment of the situation. We really have no idea how it will be implemented at this point.

I'm not really an advocate of each class having separate resources, it just depends on how the battle system works. I play TERA where melee classes use mana just like mages would to 'cast' their abilities. For the sake of immersion it sounds silly, but it doesn't really bother me because it works well. I'd even argue that it works out better that way because it's easier to account for the scaling on abilities. Melee ability 'a' does damage 'b' at a cost of 'c' mana is easily translated to mage ability 'x' doing 'y' damage at a cost of 'z' mana. The only real differences outside that which need attention is cooldown on the abilities, bonus damage based on elemental affinity or positional requirements, ect.

I understand how and why people who played XI would want XIV not to stray too far from the formula if they appreciated that game, but XI had a better system than XIV had both at first alpha and even through the addition of auto-attack. Time will tell how changes in ARR affect the game, but I'm sure we could all agree that the system in XI could and should be improved upon even if they do decide not to stray from that type of system.

Perhaps I'm a little hard on SE for not putting together something better. Is it too demanding of me to place a higher standard on them because they've been doing this for decades or should I hold them to the same standard as I would a rookie development team?

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Woofdram wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
FilthMcNasty's name is very familiar to me because of the negative statements. However, none of what he said was wrong.


You seem to be missing the point. It was said before, by others, and quite a few time too. Please don't make it come over like any of his repetitive whining opened eyes that had been closed before.


It opened mine.Smiley: eek

If there is one thing I realize, is that we need the complainers. I won't do it, and someone has to. Most of the time, I'm TOO understanding. Sometimes it takes that one person willing to ***** about it to make me see perspective.

When purchasing things online, I go straight to the 1 star reviews to see if there are any valid concerns. If most of them are about UPS or FEDEX shipping it to them late etc, I'll rest easy and take the 5 stars more seriously. If I had an issue with a product, I really couldn't be assed to go complain about it and put a 1 star review. Granted I never had a product fail on me because I do a lot of research before spending my hard earned money, especially if it's expensive. "Cheap things no good. Good things no cheap."

My point is, I'm kinda grateful for the negative nancies of the world. They have their purpose with me.Smiley: nod

I already tried reasoning this out with people. The white knights simply try to deny or discredit any opinion that doesn't praise SE or XIV without offering some of what they like to brand 'constructive criticism'. Don't say anything bad about XIV unless it comes with a laundry list of ideas to fix it.

Let me put on my Poubelle hat for a moment here and ask the 'tough questions' Smiley: tongue

Do you need to be a plumber to tell when a pipe is leaking? Do you need 4 years of med school to understand when you're sick?

If people can answer these questions(those of us who are not plumbers or doctors anyway) then they should be able to understand why not all criticism is required to be constructive. I do try to come up with alternatives or at least a valid comparison simply to soothe the army of torches and pitchforks, but it's never enough.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#54 Feb 26 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Do you need to be a plumber to tell when a pipe is leaking? Do you need 4 years of med school to understand when you're sick?


No but you would probably call a plumber on how to fix the pipe or doctor on how to get yourself better.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 3:34pm by Geffe
#55 Feb 26 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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People need to stop posting opinions as if they were facts. (Opinions are of course welcome too, as long as they are not presented as facts.)


A caution on this advice: people also need to not infer that a statement was intended to be presented as a fact. I don't think it's a smart practice to assume that someone was claiming their opinion as fact just because they didn't state that it was an opinion and use all the right modifiers. If someone says that pizza is the greatest food in the world, I can recognize that as an opinion even though it's arguably presented as fact.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#56 Feb 26 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Geffe wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Do you need to be a plumber to tell when a pipe is leaking? Do you need 4 years of med school to understand when you're sick?


No...

^ See most people would have stopped here realizing that this is the conclusion that everyone would come to. They probably would also realize that the questions were asked to make a point; one which you seem to have missed entirely. Smiley: oyvey



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#57 Feb 26 2013 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Untill recently, these forums have been DEAD. I came here a lot around launch time. The complaints lasted up till the golden patches of 1.8+. The only names I seem to recall are Kanekitty and Filth lol. Most were wise cracks against FFXIV. It still didn't make it less true IMO lol. Nothing I cared to argue with them about anyway lol. What made it sting, is that they were true, we just don't want to hear it. We just want to allow ourselves to run off with the hype. I want this game to be the best it can be, but I don't think I'd be any good living in the clouds.

Off topic(kinda): Most of the crappy structures we have set up (government, financial, social, academics) that ***** us over that we ***** about are our own faults because we always let vocal minorities call all the shots. (White Knights and Debbie Downers)The fact that too many of us are too "mature" too"understanding" too "willing" so above it all to argue is why we'll never see change. We never argue ideas, and we never grow, because to engage in an argument that just might cause us to think differently is just plain scary.
#58 Feb 26 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Default
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GDLYL wrote:
Off topic(kinda): Most of the crappy structures we have set up (government, financial, social, academics) that ***** us over that we ***** about are our own faults because we always let vocal minorities call all the shots. (White Knights and Debbie Downers)The fact that too many of us are too "mature" too"understanding" too "willing" so above it all to argue is why we'll never see change. We never argue ideas, and we never grow, because to engage in an argument that just might cause us to think differently is just plain scary.


I think you're wrong. at least in the US I think all different kinds of people do argue their opinions and challenge things all the time. maybe it's an issue with you personally?
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#59 Feb 26 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Poubelle wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
Off topic(kinda): Most of the crappy structures we have set up (government, financial, social, academics) that ***** us over that we ***** about are our own faults because we always let vocal minorities call all the shots. (White Knights and Debbie Downers)The fact that too many of us are too "mature" too"understanding" too "willing" so above it all to argue is why we'll never see change. We never argue ideas, and we never grow, because to engage in an argument that just might cause us to think differently is just plain scary.


I think you're wrong. at least in the US I think all different kinds of people do argue their opinions and challenge things all the time. maybe it's an issue with you personally?


You're entitled to think I'm wrong. That's a human issue, sir. It's especially worse in the US. I'm surprised you put the US up there. As polarized as this country is, you really think you fit exactly into every mold? If I were to state all my beliefs, I'd sound like a christian atheist republican democrat progressive liberal open minded provincial racist. The fact that I agree with some of their ideas and reject the rest, tells me that neither of those alone define me, but we elect officials that only represent a small part of what we believe in. (Most, who lie and pander to you just for your support). You can't really be that deluded. Everyone joins in protests right? No, because the way life is set up here is, "ain't nobody got time for that!" Unless it directly affects me of course. And if those people who protest get what they want, was it something that YOU supported? That's why I called them a vocal minority. Their affected change can then affect your life. Where were you when that happened?
#60 Feb 26 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
Their affected change can then affect your life. Where were you when that happened?

Wondering if I should turn off the Dawnguard DLC or leave it on for my next Skyrim playthrough.
#61 Feb 26 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
Their affected change can then affect your life. Where were you when that happened?

Wondering if I should turn off the Dawnguard DLC or leave it on for my next Skyrim playthrough.


Which ever awards you with the biggest erection.
#62 Feb 26 2013 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Do you need to be a plumber to tell when a pipe is leaking? Do you need 4 years of med school to understand when you're sick?


If you only had 4 years of med school, I don't want you to tell me you're hungry, forget diagnosing me.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 8:34pm by Louiscool
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#63 Feb 27 2013 at 2:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Do you need to be a plumber to tell when a pipe is leaking? Do you need 4 years of med school to understand when you're sick?


No, apparently what you need to do is while they are building you a new house - after apologizing of course - is keep on whining about that pipe and how much your landlord sucks anyway, and imply that the people building your house will probaby fail doing so.

Who are you trying to fool here? That guy who admits he was so blind for things that he needed you to realize that FFXIV-1 was bad? You don't need to fool him, really.
#64 Feb 27 2013 at 2:56 AM Rating: Default
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Oh, give it a break. If someone thinks that the game is going to fail for X reasons, and they share X reasons, then they're doing the best thing they can reasonably do for the game. And yeah, if someone builds me a house, and they ***** it up the first time, then someone else to do it the next time, I'm going to tell that new person what they're doing wrong every chance I get. When you invest in a house, it's irresponsible to NOT nitpick the way it's built. I mean, can you imagine anyone offering to build you a house and then just being able to walk away from it without even paying for it? That leaves the builder with a house that nobody wanted. Analogies that aren't analogous can get pretty ridiculous, yeah?

The bottom line is that if people aren't excited about the game, SE needs to be very aware of that fact if they're going to do anything about it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Feb 27 2013 at 3:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Analogies that aren't analogous can get pretty ridiculous, yeah?


Depends on the person's blind spots.

#66 Feb 27 2013 at 3:22 AM Rating: Default
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I find that the more telling thing about analogies is that the people who dissect them are incapable of articulating a cogent argument.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 Feb 27 2013 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I find that the more telling thing about analogies is that the people who dissect them are incapable of articulating a cogent argument.


I fnd it telling that you find it reasonable to keep on whining about the old pipes when a new house is being build after a big fat apology and the promise that the new pipes won't leak.

Edited, Feb 27th 2013 4:32am by Woofdram
#68 Feb 27 2013 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Sure, perhaps the pipes will be fine. The HVAC, the electrical, the sewage, the roof, the ventilation... little things like that worry me.

Game design isn't easy. Lots of well-meaning game designers release mediocre and ****** games all of the time despite trying their hardest. So a guarantee from someone who probably doesn't even know how to fix the problem really means Jack S. Nothing.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Feb 27 2013 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Sure, perhaps the pipes will be fine. The HVAC, the electrical, the sewage, the roof, the ventilation... little things like that worry me.

Game design isn't easy. Lots of well-meaning game designers release mediocre and sh*tty games all of the time despite trying their hardest. So a guarantee from someone who probably doesn't even know how to fix the problem really means Jack S. Nothing.


Same goes for continuing to whine about the inital problem and the one trying to fix it but probably doesn't even know how to. Same result in Jack S. Nothing as well.

When people have a lot complaints, you better take them seriously. When they complaint some more right after you told them that you will try to fix things, you can see that as their way of expressing their disappointment. However, when someone keeps on pointing out the same things and posting all kinds of stabs for more months and months, you might not be far off when you see all this as someone with a strange hobby... and ignore it.
#70 Feb 27 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Yay. The forum is back to life!
#71 Feb 27 2013 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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You do understand that this forum is not an inbox for the developers, thought, right? This is a forum for discussing the game, good or bad. Complaining about people who have bad things to say about the game (and conflating their negative comments with complaining) is an even stranger hobby, if you ask me.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#72 Feb 27 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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OK, let's stop with the analogies and just whip 'em out and measure for size and girth.
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#73 Feb 27 2013 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Oh, give it a break. If someone thinks that the game is going to fail for X reasons, and they share X reasons, then they're doing the best thing they can reasonably do for the game. And yeah, if someone builds me a house, and they ***** it up the first time, then someone else to do it the next time, I'm going to tell that new person what they're doing wrong every chance I get. When you invest in a house, it's irresponsible to NOT nitpick the way it's built. I mean, can you imagine anyone offering to build you a house and then just being able to walk away from it without even paying for it? That leaves the builder with a house that nobody wanted. Analogies that aren't analogous can get pretty ridiculous, yeah?

The bottom line is that if people aren't excited about the game, SE needs to be very aware of that fact if they're going to do anything about it.




Very well said.

I would like too add... This game did not survive on (I don't like the word fanboys so I will use fans) fans before, it need these other people or the fans will not have a game to play and SE may go out of business.

Maybe these fans should help out the newer people or people who have left instead of constantly bashing them. You aint helping the game out. People left for a reason, this game failed for a reason, don't help it happen again. Sometime the best game in the world can fail.



Edited, Feb 27th 2013 9:39am by Nashred
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#74 Feb 27 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nashred wrote:
Maybe these fans should help out the newer people or people who have left instead of constantly bashing them.


Then we get called "white knights" for defending a game that in their eyes is indefensible.

I'm sure more than a few people hate the Admin over on Zam who's too enthusiastic about XIV Smiley: laugh
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#75 Feb 27 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Looking at the official forums, I don't think there are many "white knights," in that there aren't really many people who are defending every decision SE makes.

I see a few camps of people:

1. MMO players who happen to be interested in FFXIV and are judging it by their experiences in other
MMOs--they hate 1.0 and are expecting to hate 2.0.

2. 1.0 lovers who hate the WoW crowd and are extremely angry about changes SE is making to combat. They loved most of 1.0, are really nervous about 2.0 but are still obsessed with it.

3. Final Fantasy / FFXI fans who didn't love 1.0 and are excited about new, traditional MMO combat in 2.0. They hated 1.0, are looking to love 2.0.

4. MMO noobs who didn't play 1.0 and think 2.0 looks interesting but really know nothing about it . They kinda don't count.

I just don't really see many people (there are some--just not many) who loved 1.0 and are loving 2.0.

So, to be clear, we have

1.0-, 2.0-
1.0+,2.0-
1.0-,2.0+

and the missing 1.0+,2.0+, which would be a "white knight," IMHO, which is not a significant portion of the playerbase, at least as far as I can tell on the official forums.

I think Wint is part of the third group, which, to me, seems like the most reasonable group at the moment.
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