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#1 Feb 26 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello guys.
Does someone know more detail informations about dungeon finder tool that comes with A Realm Reborn?

Personally, I am not that happy about ''dungoen finder tool'' to be honest, I would rather prefer ''looking for group tool'' that just finds you the members but nothing else .. And the fact it groups you up with players from different servers is even worse ... even more random players who just leaves the group if it wipe once or dont even say hello.

So details I am looking for are ...
1. Will dungeon finder tool also port you inside the dungeon like wow tool does? Please no.
This just makes player camp cities, stop beeing lazy and move your asses to the dungeon.


2. Will they find you also the raid parties for 24 man raids? Please no.
Here I think that raids should never be pugable, it would just dramaticaly increase more ''This is too hard'' complains ...''We are not able to beat this so please nerf it so even us can do it.'' ''I should not be forced to have a guild to do the raids'' bla bla bla..


3. Will they give you additional reward for using this tool? Please no.
It will find a freaking party for you without any effort, isnt that enought?!


What are your thoughts?


Edited, Feb 26th 2013 3:29pm by Waiwan
#2 Feb 26 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'll take a guess.

1. Most likely.
2. Probably. We haven't been shown anything that resembles a challenge yet, so it may not be quite the qq fest that you're anticipating.
3. Maybe a bit of gold gil or a token you can use for something.

I also think it would be better to just form your group and leave the travel up to the player.

Depending on how successful the game is, I would be inclined to agree on keeping it server exclusive. This increases wait times though, and unfortunately gamers are very short on patience these days (I don't have time to lfg, games are supposed to be fun, this isn't fun, blahblahblah).

My gut tells me they will use the same system as WoW though. I still think that the main players who make up the Final Fantasy fan base are a different kind of people however. That alone should keep the community alive, hopefully.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 3:39pm by Transmigration
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#3 Feb 26 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope you are right about Final Fantasy community :) Lately I really sick of western minded mmorpgs catered to casual friendly NA/EU players. Sadly ''we'' have ''I want everything for minimal effort.'' mentality...

Even when I grew up on western mmorpgs, I despite them now after those 10 years.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 3:47pm by Waiwan
#4 Feb 26 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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Waiwan wrote:
Hello guys.
Does someone know more detail informations about dungeon finder tool that comes with A Realm Reborn?

Personally, I am not that happy about ''dungoen finder tool'' to be honest, I would rather prefer ''looking for group tool'' that just finds you the members but nothing else .. And the fact it groups you up with players from different servers is even worse ... even more random players who just leaves the group if it wipe once or dont even say hello.

So details I am looking for are ...
1. Will dungeon finder tool also port you inside the dungeon like wow tool does? Please no.
This just makes player camp cities, stop beeing lazy and move your asses to the dungeon.


2. Will they find you also the raid parties for 24 man raids? Please no.
Here I think that raids should never be pugable, it would just dramaticaly increase more ''This is too hard'' complains ...''We are not able to beat this so please nerf it so even us can do it.'' ''I should not be forced to have a guild to do the raids'' bla bla bla..


3. Will they give you additional reward for using this tool? Please no.
It will find a freaking party for you without any effort, isnt that enought?!


What are your thoughts?


Edited, Feb 26th 2013 3:29pm by Waiwan


1: On the other hand it also helps move the group along. For instance, let's say I'm out gathering or soloing or whatever and my LFG queue pops for a dungeon half a world away from me. Why should the people who happened to be closer have to wait for me to trek over hill and dale just to get to the dungeon that was randomly selected?

2: "Raids should never be puggable." Why? Why shouldn't I be able to intelligently put together a group of people that want to do content, and then go do that content? Moving over to WoW for a second here for some raiding examples.. I can reasonably pug a normal-difficulty raid of the current tier. I cannot reasonably pug a heroic raid of the current tier. This all boils down to difficulty of content. If the content requires so much coordination and strategy that I can't reasonably explain it in about 5 minutes per boss, it's probably too complex to pug. On the other hand, then who are they making raid content for? You can't limit endgame activities to 1% of your playerbase. That's just bad distribution of development time. In a lot of ways, WoW got around this with their LFR system. By creating a difficulty of raiding that can be accomplished by 25 random strangers that never have to speak to each other, they can devote the development time needed to creating endgame content for the top 1% as well.

3: This is wholly dependent on how the game is structured and its reward system.
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#5 Feb 26 2013 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not happy about it, either, and I think it will overall contribute to a sense of "single-player MMORPG syndrome" that has been so popular a design as of late. Really, if you're just going to be teleported around an instanced world with NPC minions and auto-created parties, why is there a monthly fee for the game? It's barely more than a slow-paced offline game with a lobby server, ala Diablo III. :\

Others will be happy with it, though, and I understand that. I prefer a greater community over a greater convenience, but functionalists would of course disagree. Smiley: nod
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#6 Feb 26 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Last I played FFXI, you'd shout or listen for shouts in Port Jeuno for an activity that interested you. Then once you formed your group, you'd have the teleport NPC take you immediately to the Abyssea maw, and once inside and buffed up, you'd teleport instantly to the region you wanted to visit.

And yet having all this done automatically (i.e. painlessly and quietly) is somehow worse? If anything being able to do other things while you wait is reason enough to love this approach. The player hub seems less likely, not more so.
#7 Feb 26 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


1: On the other hand it also helps move the group along. For instance, let's say I'm out gathering or soloing or whatever and my LFG queue pops for a dungeon half a world away from me. Why should the people who happened to be closer have to wait for me to trek over hill and dale just to get to the dungeon that was randomly selected?

2: "Raids should never be puggable." Why? Why shouldn't I be able to intelligently put together a group of people that want to do content, and then go do that content? Moving over to WoW for a second here for some raiding examples.. I can reasonably pug a normal-difficulty raid of the current tier. I cannot reasonably pug a heroic raid of the current tier. This all boils down to difficulty of content. If the content requires so much coordination and strategy that I can't reasonably explain it in about 5 minutes per boss, it's probably too complex to pug. On the other hand, then who are they making raid content for? You can't limit endgame activities to 1% of your playerbase. That's just bad distribution of development time. In a lot of ways, WoW got around this with their LFR system. By creating a difficulty of raiding that can be accomplished by 25 random strangers that never have to speak to each other, they can devote the development time needed to creating endgame content for the top 1% as well.

3: This is wholly dependent on how the game is structured and its reward system.


Clearly we have different oppinions on these things. Thats natural :) but..

Who said that dungeon was randomly selected? Maybe you picked up this one on purpose?
I think waiting for someone 5-10 minutes arent that big of a problem, is it? If someone is really that unpatient in mmorpg, what these players do when you wipe? When you dont instant clear the dungeon on first try? Many of them just leave the dungeon with words ''@#%^ this group .. noobs'', queue up and join another group just in matter of few minutes. This is what you want ey? If you were forced to go to the dungeon by yourself you would think twice before leaving the group even if it wipe.

I personally think that WoW had the best raids in vanila/TBC ... there was NO heroic raid and if you didnt have good guild you simply didnt get the gear. Sadly the Blizzard catered to everyone allowing every noob gearing up without any effort. Heroic dungeons are there you say for HC groups? AHH I have different coloured gear! YEEEEES thats exactly really big difference, colours... hah

Anyways. As I sad everyone have different oppinions but these things you mentioned are first things that comes to my mind why Me and many many veteran players left the World of Warcraft .


Edited, Feb 26th 2013 3:57pm by Waiwan
#8 Feb 26 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thing is, nobody is asking you to use it. I fully expect to do a lot of things with my LS rather than solo or find a PUG.
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#9 Feb 26 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Thing is, nobody is asking you to use it. I fully expect to do a lot of things with my LS rather than solo or find a PUG.


So theoretically.. If they made raids and ''end game'' really easy for everyone, even for blind horses to beat it. Will you just comment it with: ''Thing is, nobody is asking you to do these raids in full 24 man. Just do them 10 man and you have your challandge''

Thing is ... for someone who want to compete, he has no other option to use all these tools even if he hates them.

I have read one interesting comment few days ago somewhere.. Someone was asking what do you hate the most about PvP, PvE? And someone replyed ''When a system allows the same rewards for someone who doesn't play as much as someone who puts in a lot of effort.''

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 4:03pm by Waiwan
#10 Feb 26 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Waiwan wrote:
Wint wrote:
Thing is, nobody is asking you to use it. I fully expect to do a lot of things with my LS rather than solo or find a PUG.


So theoretically.. If they made raids and ''end game'' really easy for everyone, even for blind horses to beat it. Will you just comment it with: ''Thing is, nobody is asking you to do these raids in full 24 man. Just do them 10 man and you have your challandge''

Thing is ... for someone who want to compete, he has no other option to use all these tools even if he hates them.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 4:01pm by Waiwan


I don't see them becoming that easy, nor do I see myself doing them if our LS can't tackle them on our own. Yoshi knows what hardcore gamers want, he'll deliver. What do you think the Crystal Tower will be for?
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#11 Feb 26 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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In my experience of MMORPGs both old and new alike, readily available instant-teleport features and abilities tend to make the world smaller and ruin the immersion of being part of a larger environment.

That being said SE would get simply raked over the coals if they didn't include such in a 2013 modern MMORPG release, and it is rather annoying to be waiting on that last teammate who's trudging through the swamps three zones away to complete the group. Then all of a sudden you see "lol, this bear just tried to gank me. I'm going to kill it" in party chat, and what was suppose to be a five minute wait has now been going on for 30 minutes.

It's an issue with modern MMORPG design I'm quite torn on. I'll be happy to see how it works in FFXIV ARR.


Edited, Feb 26th 2013 4:06pm by Whales
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#12 Feb 26 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:


I don't see them becoming that easy, nor do I see myself doing them if our LS can't tackle them on our own. Yoshi knows what hardcore gamers want, he'll deliver. What do you think the Crystal Tower will be for?


Maybe I became just too spectical about mmorpgs and their promises. As I said I played almost every (atleast western) mmorpg released for past 10 years and I always became really sad when they bumped out the difficulty and made everything so easy and simple just because of some vocal all the time complaining minority that complains only for sake of complaining.

So I just hope you are right and we just have to see :)

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 4:06pm by Waiwan
#13 Feb 26 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Who said that dungeon was randomly selected? Maybe you picked up this one on purpose?


Fair enough, the dungeon doesn't HAVE to be randomly selected, but then what you'll end up with is people feeling like they have to sit there at the entrance to the dungeon they want to do until they get a party for it. That's not exactly an improvement over sitting around in town.

Quote:
Also I think waiting someone 5-10 minutes arent that big of a problem.


I was thinking in old FFXI terms where you'd sometimes take half an hour to travel between point A and point B. Yeah, that's too long.

Quote:
If it is, what these players do when you wipe? When you dont instant clear the dungeon on first try? Many of them just leave the dungeon with words ''@#%^ this group'', queue up and join another group just in matter of few minutes. This is what you want ey?


Honestly, I don't see this in the FF-MMO community. FFXI had one of the best communities I've ever seen in any game (and I've played quite a few). I do think that in the interest of serving that sense of community, any LFG system should be same-server only. While I'm not completely convinced that cross-server LFG destroys communities the way some people claim.. I am convinced that it doesn't do anything to help.

Quote:
I personally think that WoW had the best raids in vanila/TBC


What a shocker

Quote:
Sadly the Blizzard catered to everyone allowing every noob gearing up without any effort.


You can't cater an entire endgame to 1% of your playerbase as I tried to explain above. You need those casual players to be doing your content, or it isn't worth developing. Let me give you an example.. it takes months to plan out and design a new raid instance. It takes even more weeks and months to test and tune that instance so that it's ready to go live. Blizzard plans these things nearly an expansion in advance (1.5 to 2 years ahead). How long do you think that model is sustainable when only a tiny handful of your players will ever see that content? It isn't. At all. Opening up raiding to the casual audience is the best thing that could have happened for endgame raiding in WoW precisely because it justifies the development time spent on it. The same thing would happen here if raiding were closed to all but the most hardcore of hardcore players. It would quickly become unjustifiable as an expense of development time.
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#14 Feb 26 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
Wint wrote:
What do you think the Crystal Tower will be for?


Raising property values of in game housing with a view of it Smiley: grin
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#15 Feb 26 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Guys I just hope you are right about the Final Fantasy community staying great whatever happens !! Awesome :) Hope my concerns are for nothing !

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 4:09pm by Waiwan
#16 Feb 26 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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1) It's a content finder, not a dungeon finder. You are worried over nothing. It will find ALL types of groups, plus an in-depth search function.
2) Yes, of course. Also, you can just, you know, join an LS for these. You don't have to use this tool, its to make PUGs easier.
3) Probably not. Who knows, but why would they? Again this is for PUGs, not free companies and ls's.
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#17 Feb 26 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm not at all concerned about the content finder taking away from linkshells.

Don't forget, this game is also ushering in the grand company/free company social structure. We are being given a nice framework to actually be social, which is something that just about every other MMORPG completely skips over.

I'm surprised Yoshi hasn't mentioned free companies in response to questions about what will make FFXIV unique.
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#18 Feb 26 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I loved what they did back in 1.0 when it came to Primals. there was the easy ones and the extremes :P that way they cater to everyone =D
#19 Feb 26 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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One note if you didn't see my story: if it's been in a FF, it's going to be a Primal. I think SMN will be a fun job for XIV Smiley: nod
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#20 Feb 26 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
One note if you didn't see my story: if it's been in a FF, it's going to be a Primal. I think SMN will be a fun job for XIV Smiley: nod


Cid Prime inc?
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#21 Feb 26 2013 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well I guess I needed to clarify that if it was a summon in a Final Fabtasy.
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#22 Feb 26 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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waiwan wrote:
1. Will dungeon finder tool also port you inside the dungeon like wow tool does? Please no.
This just makes player camp cities, stop beeing lazy and move your asses to the dungeon.


2. Will they find you also the raid parties for 24 man raids? Please no.
Here I think that raids should never be pugable, it would just dramaticaly increase more ''This is too hard'' complains ...''We are not able to beat this so please nerf it so even us can do it.'' ''I should not be forced to have a guild to do the raids'' bla bla bla..


3. Will they give you additional reward for using this tool? Please no.
It will find a freaking party for you without any effort, isnt that enought?!


What are your thoughts?

1) Dungeon finder tools port you inside the instance as a matter of convenience. It functions that way in every game I've ever heard of with this feature. Travel in Eorzea is easy enough as it is so I'm not certain why this feature would upset people. It's not like players gathering in hubs is something new either. Orgrimmar, Velika or Port Jeuno... take your pick. This is a common trend in all MMOs, not just the one you don't want XIV to be like.

2) Still too early to say for certain how hard content will be, but given the direction it's already taken toward being more casual-oriented; I can't really see it becoming an issue. If I had a preference it would be same server onry, but it wouldn't bother me if they allowed cross-server, large scale raids.

3) Rewards added to using dungeon finder tools are just incentive to use the system. If you were a casual with only a few hours a week to play XIV, you'd probably see this as a benefit if you were trying to get into some large group content. Using games that already have this feature as an example, the rewards aren't really anything special anyway.


Edited, Feb 26th 2013 6:09pm by FilthMcNasty
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#23 Feb 26 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally don't mind this mechanic. It opened up the ability to experience tons of older content that no one did in WoW.

As far as having to use it to be competitive, I used it to become the most geared holy paladin on my server before raids came out in cataclysm SOLO. It felt good to beat out that elitist guild that moved to our server just so they could be top dog and did everything to get their GM the best stuff. I won't lie though, I abused the **** out of the dungeon finder. I would leave if we wiped on trash (people were really, REALLY bad at Cataclysm when it first came out >.>) or the first boss and I would leave if my boss didn't drop the item I wanted. I don't believe I nor as many people would do this in XIV though because the series has a much better mentality and community (at that point I really despised playing the game because of the community). They could also cut down on this by making the last boss drop all notable loot. A token system would work even better in this game than WoW because of how often you might be forced to go to content as a job that you may not want loot for. And I'm sure that you would be able to queue up as groups so premade gorups would still benefit from any bonuses.

(note that I did not get a chance to play 1.0 due to getting my new gaming pc after server shutdown.)
Unless this system was perfectly planned and executed, I don't think it could handle 24 man content, or anything over 4 mans to be honest. In WoW each class had specific rolls and each group needed one tank, one healer, and three people to carry on their backs..err DPS. In FFXI and FFXIV you have one character that can be every job and in XIV you can change that job on the fly with a weapon swap. Roles aren't as clearly defined in our two favorite MMOs and that's what we love about them. Is that Bard a DPS, healer, or support? Do we have to have a support role in every group? Is gladiator/paladin going to be the only "tank" role? If so we will expect insane queue times to be sure. In FFXI certain types of tanks were always better for certain fights than others, and I truly hope that remains the same in 2.0. If you can just queue up as anything you want and get matched with the same, is the content going to be so easy that a full group of white mages can do it? I really hope not. Getting back to 24 man content again, who is to say how many of what job/role you really need to complete it? Certainly I hope not the developers. In my opinion this content should be exclusive to single server groups that are Hyur made. Besides, having 24 people be able to loot on drops will just be a giant cluster#$%^ even with the "need" system they mentioned. I guess some of this might be moot if it just turns out to be some kind of glorified cross-server FFXI search function. Then you would have to deal with fair loot distribution when the majority of a group is on one server.

The fact that they are going to use some type of system like this makes me glad I primarily play tanks and healers. No LFG for two weeks as DRK and getting no invites for me (my poor, poor friend XD).
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#24 Feb 26 2013 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm having a hard time understanding why people aren't liking the idea of a dungeon party tool. I can see how it might allow people to join in and then leave in the middle b/c the party wipes, but chances are if they are like that they should know that the parties formed using the tool won't be as cohesive as those formed using a free company or LS. People already in LS's will probably stick to parties formed within LS's anyways. The tool is meant for those players who are new/returning and don't have a LS to fall back on. It helps alleviate the need to stay in town and shout for parties for hours and hours.
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#25 Feb 26 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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swisa wrote:
I'm having a hard time understanding why people aren't liking the idea of a dungeon party tool. I can see how it might allow people to join in and then leave in the middle b/c the party wipes, but chances are if they are like that they should know that the parties formed using the tool won't be as cohesive as those formed using a free company or LS. People already in LS's will probably stick to parties formed within LS's anyways. The tool is meant for those players who are new/returning and don't have a LS to fall back on. It helps alleviate the need to stay in town and shout for parties for hours and hours.

Because they have some notion that removing types of forced interactions will ruin the community, and therefore the game.

Also, as to the current tier in WoW being PUGable, I'd disagree. At least not to people who are fresh to raiding or otherwise under-geared. However, if 14 decides to use their finder tool for raids rather than 4-man content, I'd expect a pretty high rate of failure unless the encounters are tuned similarly to the way that blizzard tunes the LFR encounters.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 10:00pm by TurboTom
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#26 Feb 26 2013 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
swisa wrote:
I'm having a hard time understanding why people aren't liking the idea of a dungeon party tool. I can see how it might allow people to join in and then leave in the middle b/c the party wipes, but chances are if they are like that they should know that the parties formed using the tool won't be as cohesive as those formed using a free company or LS. People already in LS's will probably stick to parties formed within LS's anyways. The tool is meant for those players who are new/returning and don't have a LS to fall back on. It helps alleviate the need to stay in town and shout for parties for hours and hours.

Because they have some notion that removing types of forced interactions will ruin the community, and therefore the game.

Also, as to the current tier in WoW being PUGable, I'd disagree. At least not to people who are fresh to raiding or otherwise under-geared. However, if 14 decides to use their finder tool for raids rather than 4-man content, I'd expect a pretty high rate of failure unless the encounters are tuned similarly to the way that blizzard tunes the LFR encounters.

Edited, Feb 26th 2013 10:00pm by TurboTom


You do realize that yes the current tier in WoW, refering to MSV, HOF & ToES is puggable with someone who is new to raiding or even undergeared. Having a voice chat helps in many ways.
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