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#52 Feb 28 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
TurboTom wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
TurboTom wrote:
Or they could just implement a need before greed system that won't allow you to select need for an item that your current class can't equip.


We had a need before greed system in DCUO, but it wasn't class restricted, which kind of defeated the point. Anyone could roll need or greed, but if one person did need and 12 other did greed, the one got it. This caused no one to ever roll greed for anything. The problem I have with this system is that some people have more jobs leveled than others. Say I level BRD, GLD, LNC and ARC, but Joe only leveled LNC and ARC. To run the raid we need a BRD and I'm the only one in the company who has it leveled. This means that until someone else in the company levels their BRD up, I'm stuck only gearing mine up while joe can gear up both of his jobs. What if I max it out before someone gets theirs to cap? That means I can't go on LNC and work on gearing that job, which is ludicrous.

It's not always as easy as "find another BRD and invite him to your ls" or "Find a way to win without a BRD" (queue Kachi's class balance argument Smiley: wink). In that situation, a player would be SOL and at the whim of other players, which is a bad design in my opinion.

Well, I can't ever imagine you'd need an ideal setup for random instance, but SE's made me scratch my head often in the past. Furthermore, if your LS or team is making you take a certain class to whatever it is that you're doing, they should offer you priority or at least a chance to roll. In the latter case, however, a master-looter system would be best.But that brings me to another point; if your guild is making you go to raids and not letting you loot on stuff that you can use, maybe you need to find a new guild.

Now, as far as a need/greed system with randoms is concerned, if it's a queue system, there should be nothing holding you back from queuing from the class that you want gear for. Even in WoW, most people are pretty cool about letting you loot for your OS, but the game blocks you from needing any gear that's useless to your class. I could only assume that SE is smart enough to develop a system that does the same.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here. If the loot system does not allow you to roll for a piece of gear that is not equip able by your current class, then how would I be able to lot on a LNC piece when I am on my BRD?

I agree that there are solutions to these problems, but they are rarely easy or desirable. Join a new guild would be fine if it didn't mean leaving any friends i may have made and put me back at the bottom of the points list, or whatever priority system is in place. Master looter also falls prey to the evil of politics, unfortunately.
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#53 Feb 28 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here. If the loot system does not allow you to roll for a piece of gear that is not equip able by your current class, then how would I be able to lot on a LNC piece when I am on my BRD?

I agree that there are solutions to these problems, but they are rarely easy or desirable. Join a new guild would be fine if it didn't mean leaving any friends i may have made and put me back at the bottom of the points list, or whatever priority system is in place. Master looter also falls prey to the evil of politics, unfortunately.

You're misunderstanding. The need/greed system will be in place and will block you from "Needing" items that aren't usable by your current class. In the event that something drops that you can use on another class, but the game does not allow you to "need", that'd be up to your group to pass on it, (In which case your greed roll would take priority.)

Now, there's another issue here. You'll more than likely enter this instance on that other class anyway, so there's no need for you to plan ahead, because dungeon XP is so **** good in every other game, FFXIV will probably be no exception to this rule. Furthermore, we're looking at the issue from a very FFXI point of view, where gear was usually relevant for far longer than it probably should have been. (I.E. - Leaping Boots up to level 70~).

Ultimately, the need/greed system that arbitrarily blocks you from rolling need lots on items that you can't equip given your current role (Tank/DPS/Healer), is probably the fairest system for random groups. That way, not everyone can roll need on everything.

For guild groups, particularly raids, there should be a master-looter system, in which the raid leader gets to choose who gets what. This system is what most static raid teams use to make sure everyone gets geared fairly, to ultimately progress the group as a whole.
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#54 Feb 28 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
You're misunderstanding. The need/greed system will be in place and will block you from "Needing" items that aren't usable by your current class. In the event that something drops that you can use on another class, but the game does not allow you to "need", that'd be up to your group to pass on it, (In which case your greed roll would take priority.)


That won't meet the needs of the FF crowd, however. I can't you how many times myself and others have shown up to an event in ffxi on a job that we didn't care for anymore or even despised because the group needed that role. If this sacrifice is further punished by denying you the treasure you really wanted because you couldn't go on your favorite job, its only going to cause shell-breaking resentment and division.
#55 Feb 28 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah I'm not sure that can work for FFXIV just because of the multiclass system.. some variation maybe, but not straight lifting it in its current form.
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#56 Feb 28 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:

That won't meet the needs of the FF crowd, however. I can't you how many times myself and others have shown up to an event in ffxi on a job that we didn't care for anymore or even despised because the group needed that role. If this sacrifice is further punished by denying you the treasure you really wanted because you couldn't go on your favorite job, its only going to cause shell-breaking resentment and division.


That's covered by the Master Looter system in which the leader decides who gets what loot. Your shell comes up with their own distribution system. Need versus Greed is the system specifically for random groups of people.
#57 Feb 28 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not going to clarify what I meant because I'm tired and that sounds boring, but I will say this:

I don't like systems where the GAME decides what you need. Not only would it be especially problematic in FF where you can change classes, but it also promotes equipment design which is unnecessarily limited to certain classes. For example, you'll see far less equipment that is equippable by "All Jobs." While at first glance, it seems to have some appeal, I think that's unnecessarily limiting for players. Think of all the equipment options you could have had that will be taken off the table, and all the potential builds that you'll lose with it. While there are some great things about class-specific gear, logistically, it's good to keep a nice blend of cross-class gear.

And you can still do a need-based system that way, but it just undermines the purpose of it.

Alright, so I lied. Basically what I was saying was that players could select from the area's loot pool any drops (aside from trash drops, I guess) that they wanted a chance to have. The game would basically remove unchecked items from their potential loot pool, and replace it with a semi-proportional increase to their odds of getting desired items. So yeah, if you went in with only Spear of Slumber checked, you'd have decent odds of getting your Spear of Slumber in the first couple of runs (at least I think you should, though it can certainly tuned to be rarer), but you also wouldn't be getting anything else.

It's just an idea I had while I was very tired, as I am now. I haven't put much thought into it, admittedly.
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#58 Feb 28 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Xoie wrote:

That won't meet the needs of the FF crowd, however. I can't you how many times myself and others have shown up to an event in ffxi on a job that we didn't care for anymore or even despised because the group needed that role. If this sacrifice is further punished by denying you the treasure you really wanted because you couldn't go on your favorite job, its only going to cause shell-breaking resentment and division.


That's covered by the Master Looter system in which the leader decides who gets what loot. Your shell comes up with their own distribution system. Need versus Greed is the system specifically for random groups of people.


My bad.

But I still don't think it works even in a random situation. For example, you want to get a new staff for your recently leveled black mage, but your shell isn't interested in the event that spits out the staff, so you need a random group. However, you've spent most of your time building an awesome paladin with all the best gear. So, doesn't it seem silly that your most useful class that would greatly improve your chances of success has to sit on the sidelines if you join a random group (and it seems like you'd want to be at your best for a random group) because you have to go as a BLM to qualify for "Need"? Isn't the whole point and the reward of getting this gear is to make it easier (not harder) to get more gear?

Editted to translate my post into English


Edited, Mar 1st 2013 2:03am by Xoie
#59 Feb 28 2013 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Torrence wrote:
Xoie wrote:

That won't meet the needs of the FF crowd, however. I can't you how many times myself and others have shown up to an event in ffxi on a job that we didn't care for anymore or even despised because the group needed that role. If this sacrifice is further punished by denying you the treasure you really wanted because you couldn't go on your favorite job, its only going to cause shell-breaking resentment and division.


That's covered by the Master Looter system in which the leader decides who gets what loot. Your shell comes up with their own distribution system. Need versus Greed is the system specifically for random groups of people.


My bad.

But I still don't think it works even in a random situation. It doesn't make sense that you could build up a Paladin that wants for nothing it's so well geared, but you can't put that effort to work to Need a black mage staff, because you have to show up on your under geared BLM instead. Why should success be punished?


Success isn't punished, but if you're in a random situation, you have nothing holding you back from showing up on the class you want gear for.


Edited, Feb 28th 2013 9:34pm by TurboTom
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#60 Feb 28 2013 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Well I guess I needed to clarify that if it was a summon in a Final Fabtasy.


Is Final Fabtasy the version that still has Horsebirds?

edit: Or is it the version where Vaan doesn't feel out of place anymore?


Edited, Feb 28th 2013 11:55pm by KaneKitty
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#61 Feb 28 2013 at 11:19 PM Rating: Good
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#62 Mar 01 2013 at 6:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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No, I need to stop posting on the forums with it Smiley: laugh
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#63 Mar 01 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:

My bad.

But I still don't think it works even in a random situation. For example, you want to get a new staff for your recently leveled black mage, but your shell isn't interested in the event that spits out the staff, so you need a random group. However, you've spent most of your time building an awesome paladin with all the best gear. So, doesn't it seem silly that your most useful class that would greatly improve your chances of success has to sit on the sidelines if you join a random group (and it seems like you'd want to be at your best for a random group) because you have to go as a BLM to qualify for "Need"? Isn't the whole point and the reward of getting this gear is to make it easier (not harder) to get more gear?


Part of the answer will depend on the level of difficulty the random content matcher is designed with. The info I have given is based on systems that currently exist in other games, and I'm trying to explain them in detail because I know that a lot of folks who played XI and are looking at this game, only played XI. I have the privilege of severe mmo ADD, so I've played to end game just about everything out there.

It seems like you are talking about two difference concepts here, and I'll try to explain how they are handled in other games for you. The first concept is this "random" grouping through a dungeon finder. This is usually at the party level and follows the need versus greed system of loot rolls, because these are COMPLETELY random people thrown together based on roles they queued for. You go through the dungeon and sometimes you get the drop you want, sometimes you don't. That's just luck. You are also earning marks for killing bosses that you can save up to buy tiered equipment. It's actually a pretty cool system so even if you never get a drop, you can use your marks to get something comparable from the equipment vendor so you can move on to the next tier of content with your guild. Think of it as sort of like doing all the CoP missions before you can go to do Sea with your guild. That's all it is, a set of prerequisite stuff but instead of "access" to the area, you are getting the correct level of equipment to play the area. I expect XIV to have some blend of the two concepts.

The second concept you seem to be talking about is more like shouts for groups in XI. You run with a group that is looking for a specific job and are planning to do a specific event, but if you are doing that you should be discussing the loot rules before you go. If you are interested in that staff, all you do is tell your group you are willing to be tank, but you want to be able to roll on that staff. They can either accept your offer or keep looking for a tank. If they don't want you, then you can always form your own shout group. It's still a "random" group of people in that they aren't part of your linkshell, but you still have some measure of control over things.

It just sounds like you are mixing up two different concepts. Need versus Greed is for very specific situations in order to be the most fair to folks grouping together in random dungeons. It's not meant to take the place of player communication in the situations you are talking about.

#64 Mar 01 2013 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
It just sounds like you are mixing up two different concepts. Need versus Greed is for very specific situations in order to be the most fair to folks grouping together in random dungeons. It's not meant to take the place of player communication in the situations you are talking about.


I just haven't been at my best in my previous two posts. But I understand the concepts being discussed, even though I've been making mistakes and confusing remarks along the way, so I deserve the pounding I got.

All I really wanted to say is that I don't think Need should be tied to your current class, regardless of who you're doing the instance with.

A better concept, in my opinion, would be to allow you to select which one of your level-appropriate classes you would like to Need for at the beginning of the instance, regardless of what you're playing as currently. That way, you can take advantage of your well-geared classes to both collect things for your not-so-well-geared classes (but without allowing you Need everything) and also improve the chances of a successful mission.
#65 Mar 02 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with this^

As I said before, I don't particularly like systems that decide which equipment you need and which you don't. It narrows the scope of the incentive system unnecessarily and weakens the game overall for the sake of preventing conflict, when there are plenty of other ways to reduce conflict, even if it's just private loot pools.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Mar 02 2013 at 4:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I agree with this^

As I said before, I don't particularly like systems that decide which equipment you need and which you don't. It narrows the scope of the incentive system unnecessarily and weakens the game overall for the sake of preventing conflict, when there are plenty of other ways to reduce conflict, even if it's just private loot pools.


I agree, but this applies to all parts of the game and looking at their record so far SE seems to be putting the preventing conflict idea first and foremost at all levels of gameplay so it would hardly surprise me if they just go with the "need for the class you are on" system.

Like you said there are a lot of other ways of reducing conflict and hopefully they go with something other than the above mentioned system, although I personally hope they don't go with private loot pools either.

To be quite honest I feel like a lot of focus is being placed on problems that are not even that big, or rather people are making them sound bigger than they actually are. While I think it is a good thing that developers try to limit the amount of situations where conflict can occur I do think it should never be at the cost of content and gameplay. With the choices I've seen so far for ARR I am not sure SE agrees with me though.
#67 Mar 02 2013 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I agree with you, for whatever that is worth Smiley: lol
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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