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#52 Feb 28 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Default
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Whales wrote:
I don't think MMORPG developers should be discouraged from attempting to innovate, but it is true that innovating simply because you want to be different is a bad game design strategy.
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I agree and I think that is why FFXIV was unsuccessful... They were trying to be completely different from FFXI... So many FFXI people went to play FFXIV naturally and were like what is this crap and were very vocal about it. FFXI is very successful game for a mmo and should be embraced instead of being run from. There are so many FFXI ex players looking for a similar experience but different and updated. FFXIV could be successful from just these players. You see people come back because they miss FFXI.

Most companies are not wlling to take a chance.. MS wont even support a game if there is a chance of failure. Games are becoming cookie cutter games.. Call of duty clones... I think the video game industry is going to crash. All these little kids want is COD and eventually with out innovation people are going to get bored.

Back to FFXIV

Not having a auction house bothers me.. It is easy to understand, it is easy for the gamer, it makes sense from a economy stand point.. Bring it back.






Edited, Feb 28th 2013 12:42pm by Nashred

Edited, Feb 28th 2013 12:45pm by Nashred
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#53 Feb 28 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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P.S.: In reality, the line between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation is quite blurry.
#54 Feb 28 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
I definitely think FFXIV will succeed.

Square Enix is committed to the project, and the result will be a high-quality game that strongly appeals to the droves of Final Fantasy fans throughout the world. This game may not have the initial huge audience of a new F2P game like Guild Wars 2, but I can guarantee it will have much greater staying power.

Also, let's not forget one of the biggest things this game has going for it, which is the initial failure to launch on the PS3.

Way back when, tons of console gamers were eager to have an MMORPG, and they never got to experience the mess that was Version 1.0. Many of those gamers still want a console MMORPG, and they're still waiting to play FFXIV. On the console market, this game will have no real competition for those gamers. Not only that, but ARR will be of such high quality that even if there were some competition, the title would still do very well. Remember that many gamers (like me) chose a Playstation over an Xbox just because of the Final Fantasy titles.

With what we've seen in the video and from other sources, it's evident that this game will be a solid title that will be very appealing to a large number of people.
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#55 Feb 28 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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PS3 is a huge factor. ****, FFXI on Xbox sold some consoles, and got a number of friends of mine to try ffxi.

Another thing to remember is that SE won't let it fail. They will lose money for years just to prove a point, because they don't have investors to pay back, like swtor and others.
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#56 Feb 28 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
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Intrinsic motivation is sustained by novel challenges that are well-balanced against the player's skill level

Unless, of course, you are talking about social gamers who are just there to to enjoy the community aspects... or to roleplay... or to find a girlfriend... or to enjoy the graphics... or because their friends invited them... or because it's the only MMO on the PS3... or because they like the franchise... or the storyline... or hope to date Yuna... or brag about learning Japanese while playing...

That's quite a part about motivation one should not overlook when talking about game design: motivation, even the intrinsic type, depends a lot on the audience you are targeting. Your principles certainly apply to many, but just as certainly there are many a narrow focus on the reward mechanics you consider pivotal does not apply to. Just my 2C.


I could write books on the subject, but I'm trying to be poignant here. The vast majority of the MMO subscribers have gameplay-oriented goals and motivations. It's a very small percentage that encompasses all of those other motivations combined. I would not agree that there are "many" who these principles don't apply to, not in any meaningful relative terms. The social element is the most compelling, but here it generally depends upon people who are enjoying the gameplay, and these days, there are numerous online social alternatives to MMOs. I didn't say that it wasn't an aspect of intrinsic motivation, mind you, just that it wasn't among the most influential. Four or five down the list, perhaps, but not likely at all to be the reason why the game succeeds or fails, is my point.

Rinsui wrote:
P.S.: In reality, the line between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation is quite blurry.


It's really not. You can look at Deci and Ryan's theory of self determination and think of it as a blurry spectrum, but that whole perspective sort of glosses over the discrete nature of motivation (and is not especially well-defended). The line between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation is simply this: Did you want to do it, or did you not want to do it, but did it anyway? If you try to examine it as a complex, long-term behavior such as "playing FFXIV," or "raising a child," only then does it start to look murky. If you're looking at it discretely, as in, "doing something in FFXIV right now," or "interacting with my child right now," the lines become black and white very quickly. The latter is how the effective experience designer works--they look at the parts of the experience required to build the whole experience. Playing FFXIV is comprised of many discrete instances of motivation, that frequently modulate between intrinsic, extrinsic and amotivation.

But yes, a question like, "Are you intrinsically motivated or extrinsically motivated to play FFXIV?" is nonsense. Conscious and subconscious states are far too ephemeral to give meaning to such questions.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#57 Feb 28 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Remember that many gamers (like me) chose a Playstation over an Xbox just because of the Final Fantasy titles.


Remember that you're an administrator on a Final Fantasy forum. You are hardly representative of the population.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#58 Feb 28 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
I was a final fantasy player long before I even used the Internet. Me being a zam admin has zero to do with that.

I don't get paid anymore by Zam either, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, other than this being a franchise I've enjoyed for more than two decades.
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#59 Feb 28 2013 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I was a final fantasy player long before I even used the Internet. Me being a zam admin has zero to do with that.

I don't get paid anymore by Zam either, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, other than this being a franchise I've enjoyed for more than two decades.


I think you're missing my point. I was pointing out the fact that you clearly have greater love for the franchise than even a longtime fan like me that you would be in your current position. You are not the "typical" FF fan. If anything, you are an outlier. Therefor, what is true for you is not necessarily extensible to the general population of FF fans, let alone gamers in general.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Feb 28 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I was pointing out the fact that you clearly have greater love for the franchise than even a longtime fan like me that you would be in your current position.


If anything, I think I just happen to enjoy writing and conversation more than most gamers, and forums are perfect for that.

I'm extremely vocal through various other online outlets as well.
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#61 Feb 28 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I was pointing out the fact that you clearly have greater love for the franchise than even a longtime fan like me that you would be in your current position.


If anything, I think I just happen to enjoy writing and conversation more than most gamers, and forums are perfect for that.

I'm extremely vocal through various other online outlets as well.


Oh durn, Thayos, you were on Masamune too? All this time... I never knew
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#62 Mar 01 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Nashred wrote:
Whales wrote:
I don't think MMORPG developers should be discouraged from attempting to innovate, but it is true that innovating simply because you want to be different is a bad game design strategy.
.


I agree and I think that is why FFXIV was unsuccessful... They were trying to be completely different from FFXI... So many FFXI people went to play FFXIV naturally and were like what is this crap and were very vocal about it. FFXI is very successful game for a mmo and should be embraced instead of being run from. There are so many FFXI ex players looking for a similar experience but different and updated. FFXIV could be successful from just these players. You see people come back because they miss FFXI.

Most companies are not wlling to take a chance.. MS wont even support a game if there is a chance of failure. Games are becoming cookie cutter games.. Call of duty clones... I think the video game industry is going to crash. All these little kids want is COD and eventually with out innovation people are going to get bored.

Back to FFXIV

Not having a auction house bothers me.. It is easy to understand, it is easy for the gamer, it makes sense from a economy stand point.. Bring it back.




Couldn't have said better myself. Ex FFXI and MMO player I'm hoping they take what they know and have learned and polish the heck out of what they're doing for ARR.

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 9:45am by MelloDark

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 9:47am by MelloDark
#63 Mar 01 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Personally I liked all the sidegrades, though I didn't like the gearswapping per se.

In retrospect, you are probably correct, the sidegrades do allow for more events to be enjoyed without nullifying old rewards you may want to tote around for a long time to come, if for no other reasons than the memories associated with it's acquisition, or it's looks.

I remember being frustrated with the "side-grades" for sooooo long at 75 though, so perhaps that's where I developed that opinion. I guess 'at some point' you need to start fresh, and level cap increases really help that along. I can stand maybe 4 years of sidegrades for the same things, but after a while I'd like to feel like I moved 'forward' instead of 'sideways' (even if the feeling is artificial, and turns into another sidegrade session for the next four years).

My biggest frustration by far with FFXI though, to this day, was the "mid-combat gear-swap" stuff. I think it's horrible design to have someone popping in and out of gear instantly mid combat... not to mention it looks stupid (+1 for blinkmenot). For example, the possibility of starting a cast with fast-cast / haste gear on, then switching to mab / macc gear, and getting the best of all worlds is pretty damned stupid, it created this unnecessary greed where every single person wanted every single item for the off-chance that they might need to swap into it at some point. Or never deciding "whether to attack fast" with melee haste, or "hit harder" with other stats that effect regular hits and/or WS damage because you can maximize everything at once by abusing the swap system. Just dumb. This created extremely lazy gear design, which is why FFXI has so many pieces of gear that people "just don't use" because they couldn't possibly be upgrades. For a game mocked for the "tanaka balance" so much over the years, mid-combat gear-swapping being a core game-play mechanic for so long sure doesn't reflect well on the designers. ****, if it weren't for spellcast, I wouldn't even bother these days. It is my opinion that certain bonuses of AF / Relic / similar gear should at some point become "part" of the character, just like when you unlock weaponskills with certain weapons... there's no need to constantly swap into inferior / crappy gear for TH+1 for example... I don't understand why after 1000 mobs wearing those items they don't just become a permanent stat and eliminate the need for swaps.
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#64 Mar 01 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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I never got into gear swapping myself, except for the elemental staves (thank you for the Chatoyant Staff!).
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#65 Mar 01 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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FUJILIVES wrote:

My biggest frustration by far with FFXI though, to this day, was the "mid-combat gear-swap" stuff. I think it's horrible design to have someone popping in and out of gear instantly mid combat... not to mention it looks stupid (+1 for blinkmenot). For example, the possibility of starting a cast with fast-cast / haste gear on, then switching to mab / macc gear, and getting the best of all worlds is pretty damned stupid, it created this unnecessary greed where every single person wanted every single item for the off-chance that they might need to swap into it at some point. Or never deciding "whether to attack fast" with melee haste, or "hit harder" with other stats that effect regular hits and/or WS damage because you can maximize everything at once by abusing the swap system. Just dumb.


I agree completely, it seems like some people really like this system(die heard endgame FFXI players that is), but I hated it. you had to make a macro switching yourself out of entire gear sets for the beginning, middle, and end of all your casts to be 'efficient' as possible, it was really dumb.

that "best of all worlds"idea that gear swapping introduces is to boring. even being able to swap to every elemental stave for each element is kind of silly. but THAT I was ok with.

its when I got to endgame and my friends convinced me that every single part of my gear every cape ring necklace and boot needed to be swapped out every 2 seconds where it got annoying. it's a huge part of FFXI, and I love FFXI, but gear switching is definitely something I didn't like about it

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 11:53am by Poubelle

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 11:55am by Poubelle
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#66 Mar 01 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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FUJILIVES wrote:
[quote=Kachi]
My biggest frustration by far with FFXI though, to this day, was the "mid-combat gear-swap" stuff. I think it's horrible design to have someone popping in and out of gear instantly mid combat... not to mention it looks stupid (+1 for blinkmenot). For example, the possibility of starting a cast with fast-cast / haste gear on, then switching to mab / macc gear, and getting the best of all worlds is pretty damned stupid, it created this unnecessary greed where every single person wanted every single item for the off-chance that they might need to swap into it at some point. Or never deciding "whether to attack fast" with melee haste, or "hit harder" with other stats that effect regular hits and/or WS damage because you can maximize everything at once by abusing the swap system. Just dumb. This created extremely lazy gear design, which is why FFXI has so many pieces of gear that people "just don't use" because they couldn't possibly be upgrades. For a game mocked for the "tanaka balance" so much over the years, mid-combat gear-swapping being a core game-play mechanic for so long sure doesn't reflect well on the designers. sh*t, if it weren't for spellcast, I wouldn't even bother these days. It is my opinion that certain bonuses of AF / Relic / similar gear should at some point become "part" of the character, just like when you unlock weaponskills with certain weapons... there's no need to constantly swap into inferior / crappy gear for TH+1 for example... I don't understand why after 1000 mobs wearing those items they don't just become a permanent stat and eliminate the need for swaps.


I agree. I hated swapping gear. I hated having a TP set and then switching out for WS or anything like that. It was a huge frustration to me as a healer sometimes when I would cursor over someone to heal only to have them (and my cursor disappear), which I would then have to target and recast.

I hope the gear design makes more sense this time around.
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#67 Mar 01 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
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I enjoyed gear swapping.

It separated the good players from the mediocre, IMO, and allowed for a greater level customization. I played Blue Mage heavily though, which required 4-5 sets of gear because of the spells and melee. If we couldn't gearswap, that job would have been hugely nerfed because you would have to choose between str and dex for some spells, acc for melee, mind or int for many other spells, and refresh. As Pup, I would regularly swap on gear that allowed me to use triple manuevers without overloading.

****, I gear swapped in FFXIV as Bard. The AF just isn't as good as other gear options, so I would swap in a piece of AF for the song buff and then swap it out.

On the other side, gear swapping is annoying and was only essential in parts of FFXI because of design flaws. Forcing players to make tough decisions is what makes a game more engaging.

Quote:
It is my opinion that certain bonuses of AF / Relic / similar gear should at some point become "part" of the character, just like when you unlock weaponskills with certain weapons... there's no need to constantly swap into inferior / crappy gear for TH+1 for example... I don't understand why after 1000 mobs wearing those items they don't just become a permanent stat and eliminate the need for swaps.


This is why I hope they allow us to turn AF into materia, to allow us to put these unique bonuses on other gear.

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 12:16pm by Louiscool
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#68 Mar 01 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:

It separated the good players from the mediocre, IMO, and allowed for a greater level customization. I played Blue Mage heavily though, which required 4-5 sets of gear because of the spells and melee. If we couldn't gearswap, that job would have been hugely nerfed because you would have to choose between str and dex for some spells, acc for melee, mind or int for many other spells, and refresh. As Pup, I would regularly swap on gear that allowed me to use triple manuevers without overloading.


No it didn't, it enabled you to not have to make sacrifices. Typing a couple extra lines in a macro doesn't make you a better player, nor does programming a script in Windower. That just makes you a programmer. Conquering encounters by capitalizing on a job's strengths and how it interacts with other jobs in the party is what makes you a great player. Ensuring that you have no weaknesses was just a terrible game design.
#69 Mar 01 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

It separated the good players from the mediocre, IMO, and allowed for a greater level customization. I played Blue Mage heavily though, which required 4-5 sets of gear because of the spells and melee. If we couldn't gearswap, that job would have been hugely nerfed because you would have to choose between str and dex for some spells, acc for melee, mind or int for many other spells, and refresh. As Pup, I would regularly swap on gear that allowed me to use triple manuevers without overloading.


No it didn't, it enabled you to not have to make sacrifices. Typing a couple extra lines in a macro doesn't make you a better player, nor does programming a script in Windower. That just makes you a programmer. Conquering encounters by capitalizing on a job's strengths and how it interacts with other jobs in the party is what makes you a great player. Ensuring that you have no weaknesses was just a terrible game design.


this, and mindsets like Louis' are exactly why the gear swapping system was so bad
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#70 Mar 01 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It separated the good players from the mediocre, IMO, and allowed for a greater level customization. I played Blue Mage heavily though, which required 4-5 sets of gear because of the spells and melee. If we couldn't gearswap, that job would have been hugely nerfed because you would have to choose between str and dex for some spells, acc for melee, mind or int for many other spells, and refresh. As Pup, I would regularly swap on gear that allowed me to use triple manuevers without overloading.


It certainly did separate good and mediocre players.. but the question you should ask there is WHY did it separate them? And was that a good design choice?

Gear swapping introduced this huge and incredibly mathy metagame into the mix where you'd be calculating and optimizing every step of every action you took in combat. It made combat more about pushing this intricate series of macros (because 6 line limit absent third-party tools) in order to perform such complex feats as "using a job ability" or "casting a spell."

While I agree that players who were able to master this performed better than players who didn't, or didn't master it to such an extent; I'm not sure this was actually a good thing for the game.

Let's use your blue mage example, because it's brilliant. With gear swapping in place, you're maximizing each action you take, and you're setting up your spells ahead of time to take advantage of the gear you have. Cool. Ok. But what if there were no gear swapping mid-combat? Well you'd have to build ahead of time, and your build would be completely different. What you'd end up with would be different kinds of blue mage depending on what role they intended to fill. A blue mage focused on melee dps would probably lean a little more heavily on accuracy and strength, and they'd equip spells that lent themselves to that build. A blue mage focused on support and healing would be more interested in mind and magic accuracy, and they'd equip spells that helped them fulfill THAT role instead.

I definitely see why gear swapping was available in FFXI, I'm just not sure it was a good design choice overall when you consider what it does to the game's skill cap.

Shouldn't playing the game be more about overcoming challenges and defeating encounters than about writing masterful macros and manipulating the user interface?
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#71 Mar 01 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I do agree that obviously there was a huge difference in efficiency based on how good your gear swapping macros were.

I'm saying that doesn't really make you a pro at the game in my opinion. but yes it did separate efficient players from non efficient ones who didnt want to bother with huge macros for every single action.

I agree it's just a matter of not being a good , fun design choice.

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 12:27pm by Poubelle
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#72 Mar 01 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

It separated the good players from the mediocre, IMO, and allowed for a greater level customization. I played Blue Mage heavily though, which required 4-5 sets of gear because of the spells and melee. If we couldn't gearswap, that job would have been hugely nerfed because you would have to choose between str and dex for some spells, acc for melee, mind or int for many other spells, and refresh. As Pup, I would regularly swap on gear that allowed me to use triple manuevers without overloading.


No it didn't, it enabled you to not have to make sacrifices. Typing a couple extra lines in a macro doesn't make you a better player, nor does programming a script in Windower. That just makes you a programmer. Conquering encounters by capitalizing on a job's strengths and how it interacts with other jobs in the party is what makes you a great player. Ensuring that you have no weaknesses was just a terrible game design.


Even without "all these weaknesses" Blue Mage and Pup were "lol'd" at, and LFG for days and days. You can bet that this was partially due to full AF blue mages showing up to party without gear swaps and getting 50% melee accuracy because they sacrificed it for extra str on their spells. Again, this is due to bad design.

You can't tell me that you would prefer a blue mage without an accuracy gearset, an ninja without an evasion gearset for uts recast, a sam without a str set, or a mage without a resting /refresh gearset over a players with these things.

Quote:
Gear swapping introduced this huge and incredibly mathy metagame into the mix where you'd be calculating and optimizing every step of every action you took in combat.


Weirdly, this mathyness is something I miss in 14. I love min/maxing, call me weird.

But I agree that if EVERYONE could not gearswap, the meta would be different, the bar lower. You had ot gearswap because if you didn't you were left behind.

Still, some jobs had to make MUCH larger sacrifices than others.

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 12:31pm by Louiscool

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 12:32pm by Louiscool
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#73 Mar 01 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're missing the point entirely, Louis.

The fact that those sets were created was because only of the gear swap mechanic, years down the road. But it was flawed mechanic to begin with, balancing the game off the fact that you could equip whatever you wanted to counter all possible weaknesses. Instead of balancing the game around set equipment that encouraged better teamplay.

Instead of creating a maxed out WS gear for players or several means of reaching haste cap, there should have been better adjustments to older mechanics such as skillchains and magic bursts, that now only have a few tacked on condition appliers to them as the only means to justify them above TP spam.

It was one of many blatantly broken and unbalanced mechanics that actually did more to separate those who cheated the game by using Windower and other 3rd party equipment, than those who played fairly, due to how much of a limiter that 6 line macro restriction the base game still has to this day.

It was not a matter of skill, at all - and this is from someone who did quite a bit more than your average macro swaping.


When I cite FFXI in the negative, especially when it came to misuse of broken mechanics, equipment swamping is at the core of it. It should have been eliminated rather than encouraged - and from there, there could have been an entirely different course of history for that game, that likely would have stabilized a lot higher in numbers than it did. As it is, if you don't have windower (which violates the 3rd party program issue), you're gimping yourself. That's bad mechanics, period.
#74 Mar 01 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:

Even without "all these weaknesses" Blue Mage and Pup were "lol'd" at, and LFG for days and days. You can bet that this was partially due to full AF blue mages showing up to party without gear swaps and getting 50% melee accuracy because they sacrificed it for extra str on their spells. Again, this is due to bad design.

You can't tell me that you would prefer a blue mage without an accuracy gearset, an ninja without an evasion gearset for uts recast, a sam without a str set, or a mage without a resting /refresh gearset over a players with these things.


Bad design, crappy player perception because some jobs were just TOO strong (yea, I'm looking at you SAM), I agree. But that doesn't mean that the gear swaps solved the problem or that it would be good design to keep it in XIV. For a min-maxer I see the attraction. For the rest of the world? An unnecessary level of complexity that will discourage players.

All that aside, haven't we had enough of inventory -999999 just for the sake of swapping in 1 pt of STR on a WS?
#75 Mar 01 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Default
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I think you're villianizing gear-swaps a bit too much, and assuming everyone who swapped used windower and scripts. It didn't limit me at all, as there were macros to switch macro pallettes, etc.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. A simple game mechanic is at fault for everything you dislike about ffxi, right? Point gotten.

Quote:
gear swaps solved the problem or that it would be good design to keep it in XIV


Who is saying it is or should be in 14?

Edited, Mar 1st 2013 12:44pm by Louiscool
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#76 Mar 01 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I never minded gear swaps, to me it was part of the game... What bothered me was not having enough lines in a macro to swap more gear and having multiple macros to do it.

Talking about gear... You know what I hated when abyssea came out for FFXI? Everyone looked exactly the same. Everyone is wearing the same gear and had the best gear in the game. Every White mage looked the same with the same gear, every monk looked the same.

How does the the gear work in FFXIV?



Edited, Mar 1st 2013 12:49pm by Nashred
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