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#152 Mar 07 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Unfortunately there are quite frequently classes with real, significant differences in their performance, and in high risk:reward situations, they can easily be the difference between making an encounter easy or nearly impossible. Goal-driven players will be seeking efficient routes to victory as a part of the challenge of the game, including the identification of "superior" classes and configurations.


Goal-driven players are also just as likely to form a reliable static party with their friends, and win with the jobs available to them. In fact, that's what happens in most linkshells, as shell members work together to get everyone through certain fights and missions.

I'm a believer that some jobs should always perform better in certain situations. It makes sense. Different jobs have different strengths, different mobs have different weaknesses. Different weapons have different stats. Different weapon types have different speeds. Different abilities do different things. Etc.

The hardcore players may get headaches over not having the job that does the absolute maximum damage per specific situation, but meanwhile, most gamers are simply happy to have jobs capable of getting the job done. And in FFXI, most jobs were capable of getting the job done in most situations.

EDIT: In addition, FFXI and FFXIV are built so that players can level several jobs, enhancing their usefulness in different scenarios. The leveling curve of FFXIV is shaping up to be way, way easier than the leveling of a character in FFXI. In other words, the people who'd get upset over having a job that's "not useful" will easily be able to level up other jobs to give themselves that feeling of usefulness that they need.

Edited, Mar 6th 2013 1:46pm by Thayos


Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.

That aside, I agree with most of what you said, although I guess I disagree with your conclusion. It's fine and to a degree inevitable to have a balance which depends upon "matchups." i.e., situationally useful classes/characters. They exist in most strategy and PvP games. However, that matchup balance has to be balanced as well, and in XI, it wasn't. That wasn't something charming about the game--it was a pain in the *** that led to a lot of resentment, and generally, players not having fun.

FFXI wasn't a good example of class balance even considering matchup balance. There were classes which were generally useless, and they weren't well distributed across encounter types. A 25% difference in performance between classes is fine; a 500% difference is not.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#153 Mar 07 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.

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#154 Mar 07 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Rpg players are a different breed than other gamers. They spend more time with the game. They can’t wait to get up or get home from work or schools so they can continue the story. It like reading a book you just cant put down or that movie you don't want to get up and go to the bathroom, but better because you are playing part of it. But unlike sports titles or COD the experience is over once you finish the RPG.. There is a beginning and a end. In the end you either felt wow this was awsum or I can’t believe I just wasted my time on this crap.

Rpgs are about story. If the story stinks so does the game. You need to feel like you are part of the story; you need to care for the other characters in the game. Story is the most important.

Ok MMO’s are still rpgs but they last a long time and have to fill allot more hours. The filler is what sat a MMO apart from a straigh up rpg. If people put the game down they may not come back. You can’t have constant story all the time. It would be impossible to keep writing a story that people would not finish. Also people play at different speeds. So that where the other elements come in and are basically filler to give the writers and programers more time to write more story lines.

The filler is also the battle mechanics and affects what you do in between the story line or even part of the story. Bad battle mechanics and a game fails...

People complain about grind but that the filler. Some people have lots of time to play and others don’t. Grind is to fill the time of players that have tons of time to play. Grind is fine as long as the reward is high enough. BCNM are filler and the drops low so they become filler etc.

In the end story is important for a rpg but for the MMO it is a combination of story and filler. The story has to be good but the game also needs to be fun too play.








Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:49am by Nashred

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:51am by Nashred
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#155 Mar 07 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.


This hasn't been my experience at all. I find that "class exclusion" tends to happen more with people shouting to organize pickup parties. In a ls environment, other members tend to be very helpful. Even in more hardcore linkshells, members will usually go out and level up different jobs together in order to increase the group's overall versatility.

To me, these things aren't on the lines of, "yay, yippee, I'm having fuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!" But, I've always enjoyed playing the game with others, whether that's leveling different jobs together or trying to figure out a strategy to beat the next boss without a cookie-cutter setup.

And while there were some fights in FFXI that were a little too class exclusive, most of the fights were not. I still remember playing through CoP (unnerfed) with a setup of bst, nin (taru), rdm, rdm, thief, whm. So many people in hardcore linkshells told me we'd never win with that setup, yet we always did. I don't think FFXI was as rigid as some people made it out to be, but everyone knows the game had a heavy population of min/maxers.
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#156 Mar 07 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Every game i have been has somewhat the same "ideas" when doing end game content. They find what is the best set up and they go by that. It is true that those set ups are the best and the easiest way to do things but not the only way. Many people that want to call themselves "pro" disregard others that try to do something different. I remember many times in wow or even way before that in l2 that we were half drunk and started forming parties randomly (with me being a healer and a pal as a tank we didn't care for the rest) and aiming for random raids. We had many people laughing at us and well we wiped most of the times but we also had times (when we weren't fully drunk) that we won the fights.

What i am trying to say is that doing it organized with the most effective set up is good, but a little crazy play is not bad. If you don't care if you will wipe its good to challenge yourself and try something different. After all its a game and having fun is what matters.

Therefore especially when i was playing WoW i found 3 kinds of Guilds. I joined all three kinds and enjoyed playing with them.

a) Hardcore end-game guilds. <--Those were the "best" when doing end-game content. They accepted in their ranks only people that had the lvl, gear and experience to fight. Very effective and organized. The bad in them is that they would forbid you to join other raids other than your guilds (if there is a raid limit per day or week) and they also wanted you on in every raid.

b) Semi hardcore end-game guilds <--They usually accept people that again have the lvl somewhat good gear and with some experience with fights. The difference with the "a" guilds is that while they are good at end game and they still have a level of seriousness they are more relaxed with rules and usually ,in the ones i have been, do more "crazy" stuff when bored.

c) Social guilds <--They are the best for leveling. They are easy going to its fullest. They do not care about the end-game and considerate in leveling and exploring the game. Overall they are a fun kind. The problem with them is that if you hit level cap and you want to go further ahead with raids, they are not your people.

So i am betting my non existent gil that this is what will happen in ARR as well when it comes out.

The best guild i found is the "b" or a hybrid of "b" and "c". While the "a" is awesome i become bored cause in all honesty i don't want a second job in game.
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#157 Mar 07 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking on guilds, my past experience with way too many guilds form Group A makes me want to start my own LS in ARR with a strict "No Douches" policy.

But if I do that, I may not have enough members to run anything...
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#158 Mar 07 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.


This hasn't been my experience at all. I find that "class exclusion" tends to happen more with people shouting to organize pickup parties. In a ls environment, other members tend to be very helpful. Even in more hardcore linkshells, members will usually go out and level up different jobs together in order to increase the group's overall versatility.

To me, these things aren't on the lines of, "yay, yippee, I'm having fuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!" But, I've always enjoyed playing the game with others, whether that's leveling different jobs together or trying to figure out a strategy to beat the next boss without a cookie-cutter setup.

And while there were some fights in FFXI that were a little too class exclusive, most of the fights were not. I still remember playing through CoP (unnerfed) with a setup of bst, nin (taru), rdm, rdm, thief, whm. So many people in hardcore linkshells told me we'd never win with that setup, yet we always did. I don't think FFXI was as rigid as some people made it out to be, but everyone knows the game had a heavy population of min/maxers.


That really all depends on what's at stake. For a lot of the endgame content, class exclusion wasn't just common practice, but expected practice. You're not going to spend hours of group farming and then risk it all by using some harebrained configuration. Your group will be upset and resent your leadership. So no, I don't agree that it wasn't much of a problem.

"Increase the group's overall versatility" sounds to me like some pretty positive spin for "level up the right classes so we can win more and get our drops". Are you in politics? Smiley: lol I mean, at least during the several years I played, there were linkshell statics for leveling jobs, but they were primarily for mages and tanks. Nobody was ever worried about improving the group's versatility with more DRG's or THF's or PUP's or DRK's etc., etc.,...
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#159 Mar 07 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, while I really enjoyed doing COP with a makeshift group with my static, we did die several times and experienced a fair bit of frustration. While that was fine for COP because we were clearing a one-time hurdle, when you're looking at events that you'll have to do a dozen or more times just to outfit your group with their sought-after drops, and the attempts are bottlenecked by hours of farming or camping, it becomes a lot more important to use a configuration that isn't going to succeed only 1/5 times.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#160 Mar 07 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Speaking on guilds, my past experience with way too many guilds form Group A makes me want to start my own LS in ARR with a strict "No Douches" policy.

But if I do that, I may not have enough members to run anything...


Yes that was another problem with them. I 've been ****** off way too many times to ever think of getting in a guild/ls/clan with the same ideas with them. Love end game content but i want a more relaxed approach.
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#161 Mar 07 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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We had an amusing conversation in my shell yesterday.

I said that I'd rather have a competent newbie for NNI than an incompetent veteran.

The LS owner wondered aloud if there was such a thing as an "incompetent veteran."

Within a minute we'd listed a dozen such players, the server's primary idiots, most of whom have managed to acquire multiple relics and Empyreans despite being morons.

"Well, we know who not to invite to this shell, now," the leader quipped.
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#162 Mar 07 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.


This hasn't been my experience at all. I find that "class exclusion" tends to happen more with people shouting to organize pickup parties. In a ls environment, other members tend to be very helpful. Even in more hardcore linkshells, members will usually go out and level up different jobs together in order to increase the group's overall versatility.

To me, these things aren't on the lines of, "yay, yippee, I'm having fuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!" But, I've always enjoyed playing the game with others, whether that's leveling different jobs together or trying to figure out a strategy to beat the next boss without a cookie-cutter setup.

And while there were some fights in FFXI that were a little too class exclusive, most of the fights were not. I still remember playing through CoP (unnerfed) with a setup of bst, nin (taru), rdm, rdm, thief, whm. So many people in hardcore linkshells told me we'd never win with that setup, yet we always did. I don't think FFXI was as rigid as some people made it out to be, but everyone knows the game had a heavy population of min/maxers.


I agree 100 percent...

Also most link shells if they survive people become friends. People that don't feel this way is it is because of their personality. Some people just don't get along with others or are abrasive. .. You see jack --------- everyday in FFXI.. these people seem to jump ls or mostly do pick ups to get there stuff done.

I think one of the problems in FFXI right now is people are just playing with friends. It really is hard to get a new shell, these people have been playing together for years and really don't want new people.. They are used to playing together. My LS has been together forever and are all really close, they are also very mature and no drama. Problem is the two leaders have left the game and this was maybe 1.5 years ago. No one really has stepped up to the plate so less gets done than it used too.
I hate to leave them so I do more statics now.





Edited, Mar 7th 2013 12:30pm by Nashred
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#163 Mar 07 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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teravibe wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Speaking on guilds, my past experience with way too many guilds form Group A makes me want to start my own LS in ARR with a strict "No Douches" policy.

But if I do that, I may not have enough members to run anything...


Yes that was another problem with them. I 've been ****** off way too many times to ever think of getting in a guild/ls/clan with the same ideas with them. Love end game content but i want a more relaxed approach.


Yeah.. I left 3 different linkshells in 1.0, citing artistic differences.

In XI, I could suck it up and deal with angry leaders screaming and berating just for the loots, but in 1.0 it got to a point where I realized, I'm here to have fun and had more that a few shells with the wrong attitude. One was even a psuedo-social with endgame hopes. Full of casual players, but the leader would just go off in the chat for losing baby Garuda or something instead of helping the new players understand why we lost, or what we did wrong. I was sitting in that party, reading the leaders "This is disgraceful, you should all be ashamed of that." and said "You know what? I don't like how you treat people. After we win, I'm leaving the shell." (I didn't need the win, but a friend of mine did and was in the party.)

And that is the backstory of the future "No Douches" linkshell.

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#164 Mar 07 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Increase the group's overall versatility" sounds to me like some pretty positive spin for "level up the right classes so we can win more and get our drops".


Um, no.

Winning has never been a problem for me.
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#165 Mar 07 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Um... Darnus bested your entire crew with one surprise attack, then became the direct conduit for the decent of Dalamud - chosen by Bahamut himself. ****, I'd be prancing. I wanted that ******* dead in that moment.

There was little personal attachment to Cloud as a direct player persona. It was only till near the end that you started feeling for him. Most of the time you were feeling for other characters.

Darnus had pretty much the same achievements as Sephrioth did when it came to raw actions. "Burn down a hometown?" Pretty much every town suffered damage from Dalamud. And the MMO characters had no such hometown so that kinda disqualifies that.

Both did the fire walk thing. Both dropped a huge rock on the planet. (Only one of them was badass enough to have Bahamut inside that rock though.) Both died before seeing their plan come to fruition and both's big rock got stopped by some mysterious power. (Though we know not what stopped Bahamut.) And both had questionable sexual preferences. Everything else is arguing personality, which comes to taste.

I have no comment on the discussion of party dynamics. I've no idea how this game will work out in this regard. I did complete Nael Darnus in a pick up group, so I know that the fights will likely be designed with enough leeway to complete them with various people. Various class set ups will depend on the fights themselves.
#166 Mar 07 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.



Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.



Yes because sephiroth threw a granade blow nibelhelm up and dint even look back..... Jesus christ, have you played FF7 ?

Oh yeah so many differences... Please do tell me 2 of them i'll wait right here for all them 2 differeces between them... Oh and archadia also conscripted soldiers from those kingdoms it invaded. Also you act like 1.0 was not a complete game, it was, it just sucked, also the information on archadia is not even from completing the game, you kill 3 rabtis and it shows up on the bestiary or whatever it was called lol
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#167 Mar 07 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Um... Darnus bested your entire crew with one surprise attack, then became the direct conduit for the decent of Dalamud - chosen by Bahamut himself. ****, I'd be prancing. I wanted that ******* dead in that moment.

There was little personal attachment to Cloud as a direct player persona. It was only till near the end that you started feeling for him. Most of the time you were feeling for other characters.

Darnus had pretty much the same achievements as Sephrioth did when it came to raw actions. "Burn down a hometown?" Pretty much every town suffered damage from Dalamud. And the MMO characters had no such hometown so that kinda disqualifies that.

Both did the fire walk thing. Both dropped a huge rock on the planet. (Only one of them was badass enough to have Bahamut inside that rock though.) Both died before seeing their plan come to fruition and both's big rock got stopped by some mysterious power. (Though we know not what stopped Bahamut.) And both had questionable sexual preferences. Everything else is arguing personality, which comes to taste.

I have no comment on the discussion of party dynamics. I've no idea how this game will work out in this regard. I did complete Nael Darnus in a pick up group, so I know that the fights will likely be designed with enough leeway to complete them with various people. Various class set ups will depend on the fights themselves.


Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Um... Darnus bested your entire crew with one surprise attack, then became the direct conduit for the decent of Dalamud - chosen by Bahamut himself. ****, I'd be prancing. I wanted that ******* dead in that moment.

There was little personal attachment to Cloud as a direct player persona. It was only till near the end that you started feeling for him. Most of the time you were feeling for other characters.

Darnus had pretty much the same achievements as Sephrioth did when it came to raw actions. "Burn down a hometown?" Pretty much every town suffered damage from Dalamud. And the MMO characters had no such hometown so that kinda disqualifies that.

Both did the fire walk thing. Both dropped a huge rock on the planet. (Only one of them was badass enough to have Bahamut inside that rock though.) Both died before seeing their plan come to fruition and both's big rock got stopped by some mysterious power. (Though we know not what stopped Bahamut.) And both had questionable sexual preferences. Everything else is arguing personality, which comes to taste.

I have no comment on the discussion of party dynamics. I've no idea how this game will work out in this regard. I did complete Nael Darnus in a pick up group, so I know that the fights will likely be designed with enough leeway to complete them with various people. Various class set ups will depend on the fights themselves.


Wow talk about fanboy... Damm! I hate sephiroth, i would put kuja or exdeath before him, but to say darnus was equal to sephiroth... that is just kinda sad.... sephiroth not only owned angeal and genesis in a 2vs1 like they where amateurs, but beat zack like he was a toddler, then proceded burn nibehelm down(I guess that was before owning zack) killed a flower girl, killed a president who was guarded by an army, taunted you all the way to a creater with a clone might i add, then awoke, unleashed some weapons, put a mega barrier around it, and waited like a boss till you showed up to kick his ***...

Also sephiroth Summoned his meteor, darnus meteor was already casted hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and it was not like Bahamut chose him, he was the only crazy person to try and guide the meteor back to the planet) he was basically a puppet that got to do what sephiroth did, with better CGI and stuff lol
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#168 Mar 07 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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"Increase the group's overall versatility" sounds to me like some pretty positive spin for "level up the right classes so we can win more and get our drops".


Um, no.

Winning has never been a problem for me.


I wasn't talking about you, specifically, just your assertion that this reflected the normal player mentality in FFXI.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#169 Mar 07 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.



Yes because sephiroth threw a granade blow nibelhelm up and dint even look back..... Jesus christ, have you played FF7 ?

Oh yeah so many differences... Please do tell me 2 of them i'll wait right here for all them 2 differeces between them... Oh and archadia also conscripted soldiers from those kingdoms it invaded. Also you act like 1.0 was not a complete game, it was, it just sucked, also the information on archadia is not even from completing the game, you kill 3 rabtis and it shows up on the bestiary or whatever it was called lol


2 things:

1) Please stop pasting the quote in twice..
2) Please stop taking this so personally.

The first part is a joke, but "Bad guy walking against the wind" is not an original scene in ANYTHING. It's the most overused cliche in the history of ever, and you are crediting this to FF7.

I listed NUMEROUS differences earlier, but I'm quite over this derail. You're right Ostia. This game is FF12 online, and the developers should be ashamed for using the same themes from the previous 13 entries in the series.



Edited, Mar 7th 2013 8:45pm by Louiscool
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#170 Mar 07 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
1) Please stop pasting the quote in twice..
It's a glitch in Zam with the recent update from Firefox. When you use the "quote" button along with reply it double quotes. The issue was brought up with the admins and, last I read that particular thread, they're aware of it and (probably) working on it.
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#171 Mar 07 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wasn't talking about you, specifically, just your assertion that this reflected the normal player mentality in FFXI.


I think my views are closer to that of the average FF player. Most players like me don't feel the need to hang around on the forums, but most of the linkshells I've been in are filled mostly with casual and semi-hardcore players who don't really care about not always having optimal party setups, the best gear, etc.

Most people I've encountered in FFXI (especially recently) really enjoy leveling different jobs. So, leveling new jobs to be more useful isn't a bad thing at all. Heck, I just got done leveling dark knight to 99. Grinding levels has been part of the Final Fantasy franchise from the very beginning, and people who really are opposed to leveling up different jobs/classes should probably play any number of other MMORPGs that only let you level one class.

EDIT: I agree that this wasn't good game design years ago, when a good exp party was 4k/hour killing weapons in sky... but now, leveling a job to 99 is so incredibly easy, there's really no reason for anyone to feel like they can't be useful in parties. Even people who are in bad linkshells filled with unhelpful people can still level their "needed" job, if that's what they feel they need to do.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 5:55pm by Thayos
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#172 Mar 07 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wow talk about fanboy... Damm! I hate sephiroth, i would put kuja or exdeath before him, but to say darnus was equal to sephiroth... that is just kinda sad.... sephiroth not only owned angeal and genesis in a 2vs1 like they where amateurs, but beat zack like he was a toddler, then proceded burn nibehelm down(I guess that was before owning zack) killed a flower girl, killed a president who was guarded by an army, taunted you all the way to a creater with a clone might i add, then awoke, unleashed some weapons, put a mega barrier around it, and waited like a boss till you showed up to kick his ***...

Also sephiroth Summoned his meteor, darnus meteor was already casted hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and it was not like Bahamut chose him, he was the only crazy person to try and guide the meteor back to the planet) he was basically a puppet that got to do what sephiroth did, with better CGI and stuff lol


Not fanboing, you're taking so much side story and backstory BS as trying to push up Sephrioth that you ignore the crap that belittled sephiroth too.

First off. Let's break down the accomplishments.

1. Dueling between Angeal and Genesis. All three opponents were holding back in that fight. Evidenced by the fact that Genisis forced Sephiroth to stop holding back himself by ramping up his own combat intensity (And queing his theme). The pecking order was never established between them because Angeal interrupted the fight (twice). As it was plotted that Genisis was essentially Sephiroth's equal until he started to corrode. There are several other instances in which this is indicated as well. It's symbolized entirely by having the opposing 'one wing' to Sephiroth of the same color. So no, that achievement is taken away from Sephrioth. I'm ****** they never made the sequel that was supposed to bring Genisis up as the primary antagonist for a full game - it was planned, then scrapped.

2. Zack's Sephiroth fight. He 'Beat Zack like a whelp' that's equivalent to any main villian beating the crap out of the Heros. You cite Exdeath above Sephrioth, but remember Galuf from FFV beat Exdeath down on his own (giving his life to defend his friends and grandaughter). Sephrioth on the other hand, immeidately got pelted by an emo kid in the back (who then managed to survive a stab wound through the chest to kill him). No such trite weaknesses from Nael. He wipes the floor with an entire party in one non-evaded blow. (and can do so in the actual gameplay with one good combo if you're not paying attention.)

The Rest.
It's been an ongoing debate whether or not this influence, or even Sephiroth's motivations after the point of going mad, are even his own. You claim Darnus to be the puppet of Bahamut, Sephiroth can very well be argued to be the same for Jenova. Every thing he does from the moment he discovers his origins on is an attempted replication of his mother's behavior. Even when he came back in Advent Children, he was still trying to be like 'Mother'.

In fact, if you really dig into it, it's very difficult to tell where the influence of Jenova ends and Sephiroth begins, and vice versa. But that's a discussion for another time. Suffice to say, the very self identity of both characters are muddied by the will of an external source - wherby their accomplishments are demeaned by them.

But there are some historical inaccuracies.

Meteor Meteria finds nearby space bodies and pulls them downward, it does not in fact create them. Therefore Meteor Meteria and Project Meteor are essentially the same, with the difference being that Dalamud was in fact a prison for Bahamut.

Additionally, Weapons were unleashed by the Planet, not by Sephiroth. It was reactionary to the use of Meteor meteria and Sephiroth's interference in the life-stream. The barrier around Northern Crater? Unknown if the origin source is actually Sephiroth or the Planet itself. It's existence was merely a plot device to close a loophole if it was not there.

That's not to say Sephiroth/Jenova (I tend to regard them as one entity) is not a superior villian to Nael Darnus. I'm simply putting Sephiroth as a villian into the proper light and perspective. His story has a lot of complexity that adds to the depth of his character, but tends to lessen his tale as a 'badass'. Then agian, the Villians of Final Fantasy games tend to leave a bit to be desired in the 'badass' department. Any who do wind up being heroes in disguise or victims of circumstance.



Darnus was created to be the catalyst to the Seventh Umbral Era. In that, he not only served his purpose, but played his part well. As a villian, he is derivative from Sephrioth in action, the Judges from XII in appearance, and mixed Kuja and Kefka in demeanor. This combination worked and his impact was memorable for what it was. But even I don't consider him a bonafied badass.

I could analyze the reasons why there's not much badassery in Final Fantasy but I think that's a topic for another time.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 11:27pm by Hyrist
#173 Mar 07 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I wasn't talking about you, specifically, just your assertion that this reflected the normal player mentality in FFXI.


I think my views are closer to that of the average FF player. Most players like me don't feel the need to hang around on the forums, but most of the linkshells I've been in are filled mostly with casual and semi-hardcore players who don't really care about not always having optimal party setups, the best gear, etc.

Most people I've encountered in FFXI (especially recently) really enjoy leveling different jobs. So, leveling new jobs to be more useful isn't a bad thing at all. Heck, I just got done leveling dark knight to 99. Grinding levels has been part of the Final Fantasy franchise from the very beginning, and people who really are opposed to leveling up different jobs/classes should probably play any number of other MMORPGs that only let you level one class.

EDIT: I agree that this wasn't good game design years ago, when a good exp party was 4k/hour killing weapons in sky... but now, leveling a job to 99 is so incredibly easy, there's really no reason for anyone to feel like they can't be useful in parties. Even people who are in bad linkshells filled with unhelpful people can still level their "needed" job, if that's what they feel they need to do.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 5:55pm by Thayos


I can't comment on the current state of FFXI, but in years past, I got around, not just in the forums, but in the game. I participated in many linkshells, many which were not HNM shells but aspired to be one day (which seemed to be the most common type of LS). So I'm inclined to think that my views are closer to the average player--we'll just have to settle for disagreement on that point most likely.

Grinding a job to cap back when was, as you well know, nothing like it is now. It took a very long time and a considerable amount of effort. Even to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 was a swear-inducing moment for many players. It was not some trifle that most players undertook just for the joy of the grind. It was a means to an end, and that end was endgame, and that endgame was rife with exclusionary views towards many of the players who wanted to be there. There weren't many players who thought, "Wow, look at all those giant dragons and such; fortunately for me I never want to have a chance to fight them."
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#174 Mar 07 2013 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Grinding a job to cap back then was, as you well know, nothing like it is now. It took a very long time and a considerable amount of effort. Even to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 was a swear-inducing moment for many players.


This is pretty much the most true sentence ever written.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 11:12pm by Ryklin
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#175 Mar 08 2013 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Even to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 waEven to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 was a swear-inducing moment for many players.s a swear-inducing moment for many players.

Oh yes! I remember whitemages refusing to get up for 15 minutes, because the redmage's R1 (Raise 1) just didn't cut it. And who would dare to challenge the whims of a white mage? Smiley: lol
#176 Mar 08 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now everyone wants Arise Smiley: tongue
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#177 Mar 08 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Now everyone wants Arise Smiley: tongue


And only one out of every ten white mages actually has it since it costs as much as Raise III did seven years ago.
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#178 Mar 08 2013 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, down to 2.5 million on Asura at least, that's not undoable.
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#179 Mar 08 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Eh, down to 2.5 million on Asura at least, that's not undoable.


Aaaaaanndd now I remember why I don't miss buying spell scrolls...
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#180 Mar 08 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Wint wrote:
Eh, down to 2.5 million on Asura at least, that's not undoable.


Aaaaaanndd now I remember why I don't miss buying spell scrolls...


The first few sold for around 16 million I think.
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#181 Mar 08 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#182 Mar 08 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?


It was. Beat this guy.
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#183 Mar 08 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#184 Mar 08 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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It was. Beat this guy.

Urgh. That's exactly why I would never, never, never-ever play FFXI again.
One job is enough.
#185 Mar 08 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


You're an optimist at 14 times. Either way, you don't technically have to pay for it. I'm not defending the system, but your original comment was misleading.
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#186 Mar 08 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


You're an optimist at 14 times. Either way, you don't technically have to pay for it. I'm not defending the system, but your original comment was misleading.


Yeah 14 times.. .that drop rate is worse than Okotes and I fought that nm over 150 times with nothing to show for it...

But wow that spell looks awesome.. and Meteor!? What oh what have I missed.....

I enjoy that spells like these aren't a "right," and require work, but I vastly prefer things like The White Ravens, in 14, awarded for beating super hard content and made rare and important by that, not by your persistence and endurance to defeat it over and over.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 1:03pm by Louiscool
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#187 Mar 08 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I enjoy that spells like these aren't a "right," and require work, but I vastly prefer things like The White Ravens, in 14, awarded for beating super hard content and made rare and important by that, not by your persistence and endurance to defeat it over and over.


There just needs to be a bit more of a middle ground.

But yeah, I also like having items/spells/etc. that are so hard to get, that not everyone will be able to get it. And I'm not one of those players who gets those kinds of drops! I'm pretty rank-and-file, in terms of FFXI players.

Those rare items help add a sense of excitement to the game. Just the fact that we're talking about this awesome spell with a horrible drop rate shows the impact of this kind of content. If the spell was significantly easier to get, we wouldn't even care enough to talk about it. It wouldn't be special.

Hmmm...

Maybe that's my problem with people throwing around the word "fun" so much. Perhaps the word they should be using is "special."

Fun can be special. Fun can also be really stupid.

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#188 Mar 08 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?


Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


Statistically, there's a 93% chance you won't get the drop with each attempt (100% - 7% = 93%). After 10 attempts there's only a 48% chance you still won't have it (.93 ^10). Which means over half the time you'll get it within 10 attempts.
#189 Mar 08 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


You're an optimist at 14 times. Either way, you don't technically have to pay for it. I'm not defending the system, but your original comment was misleading.


I can see where it was misleading, but I think I made my point with record brevity. There's a huge difference between taking down a difficult monster, and having to do it 14 times (statistically) to get ONE for the group. One is a test of skill. The other is a test of perseverance and dumb luck.

Quote:

Those rare items help add a sense of excitement to the game. Just the fact that we're talking about this awesome spell with a horrible drop rate shows the impact of this kind of content. If the spell was significantly easier to get, we wouldn't even care enough to talk about it. It wouldn't be special.


Let me respond to that with an emphatic: ************************ Text[/u] that. Seriously, **** that.

Yeah, it adds to the excitement, the way that the potential payoff from gambling compels many players to keep losing all of their money for the slim chance at striking rich. A game mechanic that generates a single high payoff at the tradeoff of a thousand times greater collective disappointment and frustration is simply bad. Epic bad. Bad enough to talk about. Honestly, it even makes me slightly mad that you would suggest this. You gave me FEELINGS. On the internet. That's how strongly I disagree with this.

If you want a drop to be special, make it special because it reflects a special, impressive degree of skill. If you can't do that, then don't fall back on statistics to do your dirty work. You can generate even greater, more meaningful excitement by making it very difficult to kill the monster, rather than turning a dragon into a slot machine.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#190 Mar 08 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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In my opinion, Arise is a perfect example of where it's ok to have insane drop rates. The spell is not required, it's something that's nice to have. You don't NEED it to get invited to parties, or do things with PUGs. Yes it's expensive, yes it sucks to get, but once you have it you appreciate it.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're wrong with this one.
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#191 Mar 08 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?


Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


Statistically, there's a 93% chance you won't get the drop with each attempt (100% - 7% = 93%). After 10 attempts there's only a 48% chance you still won't have it (.93 ^10). Which means over half the time you'll get it within 10 attempts.


I hate to be a stickler here, but... After 1,000 attempts there's still a 93% chance you won't have it. Your % chance doesn't change with each attempt, which makes it much, much worse....
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#192 Mar 08 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
In my opinion, Arise is a perfect example of where it's ok to have insane drop rates. The spell is not required, it's something that's nice to have. You don't NEED it to get invited to parties, or do things with PUGs. Yes it's expensive, yes it sucks to get, but once you have it you appreciate it.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're wrong with this one.


In most any game, you're going to eventually be working towards luxury items. There has to be a diminishing return on incentives to maintain the balance of game progression. So you don't NEED most of the items, but the entire point of such items is for players to set goals to achieve them. That's what carrots are for. When you devalue those goals by making them reliant on such "insanity" which "sucks," it's not adding to the game.

It's bad design, plain and simple. ****, little children will tell you that it's *********
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#193 Mar 08 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?


Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


Statistically, there's a 93% chance you won't get the drop with each attempt (100% - 7% = 93%). After 10 attempts there's only a 48% chance you still won't have it (.93 ^10). Which means over half the time you'll get it within 10 attempts.


I hate to be a stickler here, but... After 1,000 attempts there's still a 93% chance you won't have it. Your % chance doesn't change with each attempt, which makes it much, much worse....


I'm speaking in averages here, so there's no need to break out the serious math. One should drop after roughly each 14 kills. For every person who gets it on their first kill, someone else is going to get it on their 28th kill. Again, ignoring the fact that it's actually dropping to the shared pool. You're just as likely to get unlucky as you are to get lucky.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#194 Mar 08 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
I`ve been waiting for for this game to come on ps3 since i quit ffxi in 2009, me personally think it will suceed with good story, good cutscenes and beautiful music.
And to add i really loved the teamwork aspects in the game, which i hope they balance out in AAR.

Though im pretty bias cause I`ve never played any other mmo`s except ffxi, cause i think thats the only mmo with good story in it, but what do i know:P
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#195 Mar 08 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?


Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


Statistically, there's a 93% chance you won't get the drop with each attempt (100% - 7% = 93%). After 10 attempts there's only a 48% chance you still won't have it (.93 ^10). Which means over half the time you'll get it within 10 attempts.


I hate to be a stickler here, but... After 1,000 attempts there's still a 93% chance you won't have it. Your % chance doesn't change with each attempt, which makes it much, much worse....


Each attempt has a 93% chance of failure just before you make it, that's true.

But you can calculate the odds if rolling two sixes in a row before you actually try (1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36). That's all I'm doing with the odds you'll get an arise drop. It averages to 10 attempts (before you actually start) and I showed how I calculated it. It doesn't guarantee it's always going to be that many, and your odds don't improve if you fail enough times, but that should be about the average number of attempts if you do it long enough.

Kachi is looking at this from the point of view that he will do the event 100 times no matter what, and collect 7 arise scrolls. I'm looking at it from the point of view that I want 1 arise scroll and I will stop as soon as I have one. The odds a bit better because I'm not rounding out the expected failures that would occur from doing a fixed number of attempts.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:42pm by Xoie
#196 Mar 08 2013 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
In my opinion, Arise is a perfect example of where it's ok to have insane drop rates. The spell is not required, it's something that's nice to have. You don't NEED it to get invited to parties, or do things with PUGs. Yes it's expensive, yes it sucks to get, but once you have it you appreciate it.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're wrong with this one.


In most any game, you're going to eventually be working towards luxury items. There has to be a diminishing return on incentives to maintain the balance of game progression. So you don't NEED most of the items, but the entire point of such items is for players to set goals to achieve them. That's what carrots are for. When you devalue those goals by making them reliant on such "insanity" which "sucks," it's not adding to the game.

It's bad design, plain and simple. ****, little children will tell you that it's bullsh*t.


Well, you should look at that boss as something they want you to fight over and over. The drop pool looks amazing, so in theory you have an LS fighting it for gil, or drops if you need it, use points, etc.

If this was 100% drop, it would be fought 14 times and be done with, right? How do you suggest motivating replay within FFXI's current style? I don't think anyone likes RNG, including 1.0'ers, with the terribblee terrible drop rates of primal weapons and relic items...
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#197 Mar 08 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if it were just a reward for completing a challenging piece of content?


Kachi wrote:
Nonono. According to that link, Arise has about a 7% drop rate, so statistically, a player has to beat him FOURTEEN times to be rewarded with the Arise scroll.

Oh, and silly me, that's not accounting for all the other people who want the scroll or the money it's worth.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:01am by Kachi


Statistically, there's a 93% chance you won't get the drop with each attempt (100% - 7% = 93%). After 10 attempts there's only a 48% chance you still won't have it (.93 ^10). Which means over half the time you'll get it within 10 attempts.


I hate to be a stickler here, but... After 1,000 attempts there's still a 93% chance you won't have it. Your % chance doesn't change with each attempt, which makes it much, much worse....


Each attempt has a 93% chance of failure just before you make it, that's true.

But you can calculate the odds if rolling two sixes in a row before you actually try (1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36). That's all I'm doing with the odds you'll get an arise drop. It averages to 10 attempts (before you actually start) and I showed how I calculated it. It doesn't guarantee it's always going to be that many, and your odds don't improve if you fail enough times, but that should be about the average number of attempts if you do it long enough.

Kachi is looking at this from the point of view that he will do the event 100 times no matter what, and collect 7 arise scrolls. I'm looking at it from the point of view that I want 1 arise scroll and I will stop as soon as I have one. The odds a bit better because I'm not rounding out the expected failures that would occur from doing a fixed number of attempts.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:42pm by Xoie


I know what you're saying, and it's a common mistake made by MMO players and Gambling addicts alike:

Law of Large Numbers: As the sample size increases the average of the actual outcomes will more closely approximate the mathematical probability. (In this case, 7%)

The law of large numbers is a useful way to understand betting outcomes. A coin on average will come up heads 50% of the time. It could nonetheless come up heads 100% of the time or 0% of the time. In a short trial, heads may easily come up on every flip. The larger the number of flips, however, the closer the percentage will be to 50%.

The problem with the law of averages, as it is often understood, is that people assume that if something has not happened it is due to happen. For example, a person who gambles might expect that if heads have come up 10 times in a row, the next flip is more likely to be tails because the flips have to average out to 50%.

Many people believe that deviations from chance are corrected by subsequent events and refer to the law of averages in support of their belief. Many people believe that after 5 heads in a row the next flip is more likely to be tails.

The law of large numbers, on the other hand, asserts only that the average converges towards the true mean as more observations are added. The average is not somehow corrected to ensure it reflects the expected average. The key difference is in the expectation. After a streak of 10 heads in a row, the law of averages would predict that more tails should come up so that the average is balanced out. The law of large numbers only predicts that after a sufficiently large number of trials, the streak of 10 heads in a row will be statistically irrelevant and the average will be close to the mathematical probability.

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#198 Mar 09 2013 at 3:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachin, I often agree with what you say lately, but do you realize you are trying to tell a group of mmo players that what we want isn't really what we want?

Also, I dot like your constant comparisons to gambling. For the most part, I hate gambling. In ffxi, I have largely stayed away from going after luxury items with silly drop rates. However, some hardcore players really enjoy pursuing those elite goals. Why should thy be deprived of that, especially when there are always ways for more casual players to also get cool gear sets through other means?

And gambling involved wasting real money. Playing a game is about relaxing during free time. I understand what you are trying to get at, but gamers =/= gamblers.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 1:22am by Thayos
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#199 Mar 09 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool is correct on the statistical question. I'm not talking about one player getting the drop, either, but any given player. As I said, you basically have the same odds of getting lucky (less than 14 attempts) as you do being unlucky (more than 14 attempts). Statistically, they should center around a mean of 14 attempts. Using the math of combinations and permutations isn't relevant to these sorts of statistical incidences.

Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
In my opinion, Arise is a perfect example of where it's ok to have insane drop rates. The spell is not required, it's something that's nice to have. You don't NEED it to get invited to parties, or do things with PUGs. Yes it's expensive, yes it sucks to get, but once you have it you appreciate it.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're wrong with this one.


In most any game, you're going to eventually be working towards luxury items. There has to be a diminishing return on incentives to maintain the balance of game progression. So you don't NEED most of the items, but the entire point of such items is for players to set goals to achieve them. That's what carrots are for. When you devalue those goals by making them reliant on such "insanity" which "sucks," it's not adding to the game.

It's bad design, plain and simple. ****, little children will tell you that it's bullsh*t.


Well, you should look at that boss as something they want you to fight over and over. The drop pool looks amazing, so in theory you have an LS fighting it for gil, or drops if you need it, use points, etc.

If this was 100% drop, it would be fought 14 times and be done with, right? How do you suggest motivating replay within FFXI's current style? I don't think anyone likes RNG, including 1.0'ers, with the terribblee terrible drop rates of primal weapons and relic items...


My suggestion is pretty simple: If you want to make the items rarer, make the fights more difficult. Make victory the rare thing, not the RNG's generosity. Replay should be something you do because you aren't bored by the battle yet, not because you didn't get what you needed the first ten times. Drop rates don't need to be quite 100%, but they shouldn't ever be less than 20%, and that's pushing it. And that also assumes that failure isn't significantly punished with large time penalties (massive XP loss or farming new pop items).

FFXI in particular has a **** ton of content that is simply wasted because they didn't provide any desirable rewards for completing the content-- fixing that is how they can ensure that they have sufficient playable content, and it's an easy fix. But replayability isn't an issue--they've got plenty of content that players haven't completed even though it's been right there in front of them for years.

Mind you, this suggestion only works to the degree that skill can be the primary factor of success. When "social builds" become the primary mechanic of success, the game is usually pretty broken no matter how you slice it. In that regard, FFXI is a pretty dicey game in general.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#200 Mar 09 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Kachin, I often agree with what you say lately, but do you realize you are trying to tell a group of mmo players that what we want isn't really what we want?

Also, I dot like your constant comparisons to gambling. For the most part, I hate gambling. In ffxi, I have largely stayed away from going after luxury items with silly drop rates. However, some hardcore players really enjoy pursuing those elite goals. Why should thy be deprived of that, especially when there are always ways for more casual players to also get cool gear sets through other means?

And gambling involved wasting real money. Playing a game is about relaxing during free time. I understand what you are trying to get at, but gamers =/= gamblers.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 1:22am by Thayos


No, I'm telling a group of players that the reasons that they think they enjoy something aren't the real reasons they enjoy it--at best. Moreover, I'm telling a group of players that what they want isn't what the vast majority of players enjoy. Some people enjoy rubbing scat all over their bodies while having ***. I'm not going to tell them that they don't enjoy it, just that if they're trying to turn it into a blockbuster entertainment business, they're in for a tough ride. I might also tell them that the reason they enjoy rubbing ***** on their body isn't because it's fun, but because they have deepseated psychological problems.

Elite goals are fine. A game should have elite goals. But those goals should reflect personal development in some way, not "time wasted." Can timesinks be sufficient and still engage players? Clearly. But they are virtually never the superior option.

And you'd be surprised at how similar gambling and these high-stakes gaming practices are, both psychologically and conceptually. A simple way to think of it is that time=money. While a gambler will risk money that they spent time at work to earn, a gamer will risk similar amounts of time for imaginary rewards. The behaviors are incredibly similar even if the implications differ. The reason I use gambling as a comparison is primarily due to the similarities in the reward processes, however. The rush that players get more resembles that of gambling than in a continuously rewarding recreational experience (flow states).
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#201 Mar 09 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Wasting money is only comparable to wasting time among people who don't need to worry about money. Most people need to worry about money.
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