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I think ARR will succeed.Follow

#253Ostia, Posted: Mar 12 2013 at 3:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Banned!
#254 Mar 12 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't ban me I just needed to vent that out!
#255 Mar 12 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Consider that your one get out of jail free card, any more beta posts and I'll be banning you. It's quite clear we don't allow talking about the beta here, please play by our rules, thanks! Smiley: thumbsup
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#256 Mar 12 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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**** it, wasn't fast enough to just read it >_<
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#257 Mar 12 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Me either Smiley: frown

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#258 Mar 12 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Rift, Swotor and GW2 did not release with more content that vanilla wow...


Have you actually played these games? I can't account for Rift, but SWTOR and GW2 definitely released with more content than vanilla WoW. They just didn't pace their content as well.


Interesting... Seems like Kachi himself mentioned VANILLA WOW in fact his claim was that SWTOR & GW2 DEFINITELY released with more content than vanilla WOW.

Next one:

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Vanilla WOW is defined as WOW pre-BC.... Hence Vanilla..... Also battlegrounds where added 2 months later..... LOL! Also EQ was a quest centric game for it's time, just because WOW outdone it, does it not mean that it was not the wow of it's time And yeah those story arcs you mention are present in wow, just different presentation and all, unless you are gonna tell me WOW had no story and GW2 actually had more content than vanill wow lol (Which btw it does not even beats "Launch WOW"


Fair enough, because of your post immediately above that, I assumed you were talking about WoW at launch rather than WoW prior to its first expansion.

In that case though, don't you think you should wait for those other three games to put out expansions so you can do a real comparison? I believe only Rift has done that at this point.


Really the post directly above the one you quoted ? You mean this one ?

Ostia wrote:
GW2 has 9 Dungeons, Vanilla WOW had 29 that is 20 more istances... GW2 Has 0 Raids, Vanilla WOW had 7, that is 7 more raids.... GW2 has 25 Zones, Vanilla WOW had 41 Zones, that is 16 more zones.... GW2 has PVP, WvsW and some other sh*t i never tried, Vanilla WOW had 3 battlegrounds and PVP, GW2 has more content than vanilla WOW on PVP.

Also Everquest had 1200 Quest by the time WOW went into Alpha, by the time Vanilla WOW launched it launched with 2600 Quests.... Seriously doubt that GW2 has more than 2600 quests with an inferior number of zones, dungeons and raids.
.

I obviously did not state VANILLA WOW enough times apparently.....

Next Smiley: rolleyes

Kachi wrote:
That IS what we were talking about. He's just changing gears as convenient to his argument.


Oh indeed i am the one that uses a term i know nothing off, then complains when a persons call you on it, maybe before talking about things you have no knowledge off, play the game First ? Google ? Because anybody who played WoW from vanilla to any point afterwards knows wtf Vanilla WOW Is.

And last but not least....

Seraphaniim wrote:
Ostia wrote:

Please learn what the term Vanilla WOW means then correct me noob


As other have pointed out, we were assuming you were talking about WoW at launch. Maybe you should consider making your arguments a little more definitive in the future so as to not confuse people?

Edit for prettiness

Edited, Mar 12th 2013 11:42am by Seraphaniim


Do not Assume! READ! If you actually read any of the replies between kachi and myself,(Not just jump in and talk about something you obviously have no idea about) you would have noticed we both used the term "Vanilla WOW" i do not know how much more definitive i have to be, Vanilla WOW is Vanilla WOW just like Pre-Abbyssea is Pre-Abyssea it is not "Released FFXI" is Pre-Abyssea Period.

That was actually Fun! Let's try it agan sometimes Guy's!
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#259Ostia, Posted: Mar 12 2013 at 4:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I read it, it basically said "Me like the direction is going"
#260 Mar 12 2013 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Er, it's pretty obvious I was borrowing your use of the terminology because you were the one who made the original assertion. That's a lot of work to say, "The comparisons I was making aren't analogous and the point I was making was wrong, but look at how I got you to use the wrong terminology by using it first!"
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#261 Mar 12 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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So... are we comparing 1.12 WoW with current GW2, SWTOR, and Rift? GW2 was officially release on August 28, 2012, a little more than 6 months ago so let's use that as a basis for comparison, shall we? WoW being released on November 7, 2004 would put our timeline around May 2005 about a month after patch 1.4 hit. WoW still doesn't have battlegrounds at this point since that comes with 1.5 in June. At this point in time WoW still only has the two raids it launched with and only has 17 instances with Maraudon and Dire Maul.

Forgot to add my sources: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patches/1.x

You should try to cite your sources more often, Ostia. Maybe then people might take you just a touch more serious and not assume things.

Edited, Mar 12th 2013 9:20pm by Seraphaniim
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#262 Mar 12 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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Trying to pull this back into where all this will be relevant to FFXIV again, especially ARR. Breaks on 1.xx's major construction line was put on fairly quickly after release, so there's no fair basis for comparison to that, and with NDA in place until Phase ... 4? There's no real clear measurement as to how many instanced raids exist in the game.

Though I would suppose even in a fully opened beta there would be no way of making a clear picture, as it'd be rare for an MMO to open the entity of its content to the game in a beta - something of course I don't agree with in my neo-community ideals as far as relationships between developers and players.

Of course, as much of that openness and respect needs to be on the Player's behalf as well. It's that later part is what makes me think such a relationship is impossible. Not without strict moderation.
#263Ostia, Posted: Mar 12 2013 at 11:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your new argument is flawed from inception, since release WoW had already outdone EQ and FFXI when it launched in terms of content, and it did not face the troubles that Swotor, Rift or GW2 face today, which is WoW itself and its Legacy. WoW never had the trouble of having to live up to a standard since it created it's own, by breaking the mold of what MMORPGS where up to that point, Swotor, Rift and GW2 have already launched and lost a % of it's player base, WoW launched and it just keept increasing to the number of 10-12 Million Player Base.
#264 Mar 13 2013 at 6:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
You should read the argument two people are having before jumpin in and looking like an Idiot. Check if anything i said about Vanilla WOW was wrong Smiley: laugh Then ask for my sources Smiley: rolleyes


You're being more annoying than usual, Ostia. Could you tone it down a bit? Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:32am by Louiscool
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#265Ostia, Posted: Mar 13 2013 at 7:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Or ? You gonna cry and QQ that ostia is being mean ? Jajaja Also i dont remember you being involved in this conversation Smiley: laugh
#266 Mar 13 2013 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You should read the argument two people are having before jumpin in and looking like an Idiot. Check if anything i said about Vanilla WOW was wrong Smiley: laugh Then ask for my sources Smiley: rolleyes


You're being more annoying than usual, Ostia. Could you tone it down a bit? Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:32am by Louiscool


Or ? You gonna cry and QQ that ostia is being mean ? Jajaja Also i dont remember you being involved in this conversation Smiley: laugh


Someone **** in your wheaties this morning?
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#267 Mar 13 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You should read the argument two people are having before jumpin in and looking like an Idiot. Check if anything i said about Vanilla WOW was wrong Smiley: laugh Then ask for my sources Smiley: rolleyes


You're being more annoying than usual, Ostia. Could you tone it down a bit? Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:32am by Louiscool


Or ? You gonna cry and QQ that ostia is being mean ? Jajaja Also i dont remember you being involved in this conversation Smiley: laugh


Someone **** in your wheaties this morning?


I loled with this!! Smiley: lol
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#268 Mar 13 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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He seems more the Lucky Charms type.
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#269 Mar 13 2013 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:

Or ? You gonna cry and QQ that ostia is being mean ? Jajaja Also i dont remember you being involved in this conversation Smiley: laugh


I know, but I have to read it, and the sassy-ness is just overpowering.
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#270 Mar 13 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Your new argument is flawed from inception, since release WoW had already outdone EQ and FFXI when it launched in terms of content, and it did not face the troubles that Swotor, Rift or GW2 face today, which is WoW itself and its Legacy. WoW never had the trouble of having to live up to a standard since it created it's own, by breaking the mold of what MMORPGS where up to that point, Swotor, Rift and GW2 have already launched and lost a % of it's player base, WoW launched and it just keept increasing to the number of 10-12 Million Player Base.

You should read the argument two people are having before jumpin in and looking like an Idiot. Check if anything i said about Vanilla WOW was wrong Smiley: laugh Then ask for my sources Smiley: rolleyes


Wait, wut? We were talking about Vanilla WoW having more content than GW2, SWTOR, etc. Where did EQ, FFXI, and their player base come in? You claimed that WoW had more content than GW2 but decided to use a broad timeline instead a specific date. When you say something like this:

Quote:
GW2 has 9 Dungeons, Vanilla WOW had 29 that is 20 more istances... GW2 Has 0 Raids, Vanilla WOW had 7, that is 7 more raids.... GW2 has 25 Zones, Vanilla WOW had 41 Zones, that is 16 more zones.... GW2 has PVP, WvsW and some other sh*t i never tried, Vanilla WOW had 3 battlegrounds and PVP, GW2 has more content than vanilla WOW on PVP.

Also Everquest had 1200 Quest by the time WOW went into Alpha, by the time Vanilla WOW launched it launched with 2600 Quests.... Seriously doubt that GW2 has more than 2600 quests with an inferior number of zones, dungeons and raids.


What period of time are you talking about, what patch? I don't know why you're getting your feathers fluffed up when all I did was point out patch releases. Sorry for the thread derailing, I was just genuinely curious where those numbers were coming from. Who knew it's cause this kind of train wreck?
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#271 Mar 13 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ever get the feeling that the rules for this discussion are changing every time anyone adds actual data?

In the end though, it doesn't matter what quantity of content ARR launches with as long as it's "enough."

"Enough" is a highly subjective term which will be open to individual interpretation. No matter how much content they launch with, for about half of the audience it'll seem overwhelming, and for about the other half of the audience it'll seem like it wasn't nearly enough.

Quantity in this scenario becomes a meaningless measurement. What matters more is that the content on release be enjoyable and repeatable. The content has to last until the first major content patch, wherein we begin the cycle anew up to the first expansion where we start over. This is how MMOs work.

It doesn't matter if FFXIV at launch has 52 instances or 12. It doesn't matter if it has 8700 quests or 1200 quests. It matters that the experience be an enjoyable one and that it's repeatable long enough for them to put out more. Rinse, repeat.
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#272 Mar 13 2013 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
He seems more the Lucky Charms type.


Really? I thought this he was a Pops kind of person. You know, turns into crazed demon or panics like crazy because he's 'gotta have his pops'?
#273Ostia, Posted: Mar 13 2013 at 2:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Do you suffer from a learning disorder ? Are you unable to Read ? Or Comprehend ? Vanilla WoW is Pre-BC as in all content introduced into the game before the official release of The Burning Crusade.... That is what Vanilla WOW means just like Pre-Abyssea mans all content up to the point where Abyssea was release, is not a hard concept at all to understand, i fail to see why you are having such trouble, the term has been in use for years and Years.
#274 Mar 13 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
He seems more the Lucky Charms type.


You know i actually tried those once, did not like them :( I am more of a regular cornflakes guy, you know the one with the rooster(Is that how is spelled ?)
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#275 Mar 13 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Kellogg's Corn Flakes, is what you're looking for I believe.
#276 Mar 13 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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I think I get it now. GW2 is like pre-Abyssea WoW if I put all of my apples in a basket. Since apples aren't in season where I live I don't think I'll have very much content so I think your analogy needs work. What if I gathered a couple pine cones and stored those away, will I have 2500 more quests than what EQ had?
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#277 Mar 13 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
Seraphaniim wrote:
GW2 is like pre-Abyssea WoW if I put all of my apples in a basket.


I see what you did there... Smiley: lol
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#278 Mar 13 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Ever get the feeling that the rules for this discussion are changing every time anyone adds actual data?

In the end though, it doesn't matter what quantity of content ARR launches with as long as it's "enough."

"Enough" is a highly subjective term which will be open to individual interpretation. No matter how much content they launch with, for about half of the audience it'll seem overwhelming, and for about the other half of the audience it'll seem like it wasn't nearly enough.

Quantity in this scenario becomes a meaningless measurement. What matters more is that the content on release be enjoyable and repeatable. The content has to last until the first major content patch, wherein we begin the cycle anew up to the first expansion where we start over. This is how MMOs work.

It doesn't matter if FFXIV at launch has 52 instances or 12. It doesn't matter if it has 8700 quests or 1200 quests. It matters that the experience be an enjoyable one and that it's repeatable long enough for them to put out more. Rinse, repeat.



Yeah numbers don't matter, but 'enough' content and a solid connection with the world and characters are what I personally want.

But like I always say FFXI kept me very busy because I enjoyed the world/my character/the connections I've made. I probably did less than 100 quests. And if I'm honest I probably did less than 50. But the timesink-y things like low drop rates, and having to find a static/optimal group, and Genkai, really made the world seemed bigger by attrition...which was fine at the time. Plus the quests I did do, I remember.

With the WoW style of quests, you do so many and so many similar types of quests that it can be just as boring as grinding with a group.

But although I liked limit breaks and other things like that, in their original form, they were deal breakers for some. But the FFXI devs did learn, and over time made them a bit easier, and I'm hoping that ARR incorporates, longer, more meaningful quest chains, that may or may not impede progression. And to have some things be soloable and some things not.

And this is what GW2 hinted at, variable/memorable quests, but the teamwork and depth wasn't really there.

I guess, personally I'd rather see more horizontal content, more varied solo content, rather than hitting the cap and just dungeon after dungeon and PvP. I want to continue leveling and playing my game and participating in meaningful quests. A Final-less Fantasy.
#279 Mar 13 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly at the rate Ostia was going I didn't think we were ever even going to get to the point of the discussion where it needed to be pointed out that the "quantity" of content is supposed to indicate the amount of quality experiences the designers have included, rather than the number of tasks they prescribed. In this regard, GW2 absolutely crushes vanilla WoW, no matter how you slice it.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#280 Mar 14 2013 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
I really need to finish my GW2 personal storyline... but ****, I don't want to... ugh.
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#281Ostia, Posted: Mar 14 2013 at 2:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lmao! Really guys you sub defaulted the corflake post ? You guys takes this stuff way to serious Smiley: lol
#282Poubelle, Posted: Mar 14 2013 at 2:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This post is just plain stupid. Quantity and quality both matter in an MMO.
#283 Mar 14 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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It's not that they both matter so much as they are fundamentally inseparable. It is the quantity of qualities that matters. e.g., conceiving of it as "quantity" is like counting how much money you have by how many bills and coins you have. Not all coins and bills are worth the same. Unfortunately, the quality of a quest is seldom printed on its face.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#284 Mar 14 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Lmao! Really guys you sub defaulted the corflake post ? You guys takes this stuff way to serious Smiley: lol


says the fellow who just spent 2 pages raging about what the term Vanilla WoW "really means".

"but don't take this so seriously guyz."

the transparency, it makes me cringe.

hi forums. I think ARR will succeed because it will most likely be a solid, if run-of-the-mill MMO, with a good final fantasy feel, and hence will keep enough subs to stay afloat. Which is pretty much the definition of success in this genre, btw. (ok, replace "subs" with "players using cash shop" for most games these days, lets be real)
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#285 Mar 14 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well doing the math, if they have even 100,000 subs a month, that's 1.4 million they're pulling in monthly. Server costs can't be that high, this doesn't need to be a blockbuster like WoW to get them their money back.

The only way we will know for sure is when this game launches, I'm optimistic.
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#286 Mar 14 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
Wint wrote:
Well doing the math, if they have even 100,000 subs a month, that's 1.4 million they're pulling in monthly. Server costs can't be that high, this doesn't need to be a blockbuster like WoW to get them their money back.

The only way we will know for sure is when this game launches, I'm optimistic.


Yes, but after calculating the overall development costs leading up to this point, how long does it take them to break even on that? $1.4 million, minus staff wages and server upkeep, etc, then put what is left towards some ungodly number. They'll need years of solid growth / retention, not just floating.
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#287 Mar 14 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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IKickYoDog wrote:


Yes, but after calculating the overall development costs leading up to this point, how long does it take them to break even on that? $1.4 million, minus staff wages and server upkeep, etc, then put what is left towards some ungodly number. They'll need years of solid growth / retention, not just floating.


That's where you're wrong. SE owns the title entirely meaning there's no debt to repay except their own profit margin. They can swallow the redevelopment a hit in the profits of the company and just let FFXIV coast on it's normal development budget - cashing in solely on the 'redemption' value that will impact their console game sales while FFXIV takes itself slowly out of the red.

Profit in SE is pretty much viewed in total assets, not singular assets. Ones the initial investment cost for FFXIV is finished - so long as they mantain a stable population, they'll make great profits from the game even after pulling it out of the red.

SE has slated a 10 year life span intent for this game, which means they've already a goal subscription number and budget for the next 10 years in mind.

Remember, had this been any other company, with the exception of blizzard, the game likely would have floped and just went FTP. But SE has the money to burn and they burned it. They can afford to plot long-term small gains for large initial losses, especially consitering they already have FFXI - who's profits have already paid for the development and re-development of FFXIV twofold. That's not including the licensed and in-house console projects that sold well in spite of bad reception.

As a business, they can afford to let this one slow-cook. They're likely aiming for much higher than that ideally. However, they've likely already made the realistic projections and budgeted accordingly.

Edited, Mar 14th 2013 11:05pm by Hyrist
#288 Mar 14 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Wint wrote:
Well doing the math, if they have even 100,000 subs a month, that's 1.4 million they're pulling in monthly. Server costs can't be that high, this doesn't need to be a blockbuster like WoW to get them their money back.

The only way we will know for sure is when this game launches, I'm optimistic.


Yes, but after calculating the overall development costs leading up to this point, how long does it take them to break even on that? $1.4 million, minus staff wages and server upkeep, etc, then put what is left towards some ungodly number. They'll need years of solid growth / retention, not just floating.


EA declared SWTOR (reported to be $200m development cost estimated by EA themselves) need 500k subs to make a profit. 100k subs would be profitable for $40m development cost game. Can't say how much development cost for FFXIV would be.

Edited, Mar 14th 2013 11:12pm by Khornette
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#289 Mar 14 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Wint wrote:
Well doing the math, if they have even 100,000 subs a month, that's 1.4 million they're pulling in monthly. Server costs can't be that high, this doesn't need to be a blockbuster like WoW to get them their money back.

The only way we will know for sure is when this game launches, I'm optimistic.


Yes, but after calculating the overall development costs leading up to this point, how long does it take them to break even on that? $1.4 million, minus staff wages and server upkeep, etc, then put what is left towards some ungodly number. They'll need years of solid growth / retention, not just floating.


EA declared SWTOR (reported to be $200m development cost estimated by EA themselves) need 500k subs to make a profit. 100k subs would be profitable for $40m development cost game. Can't say how much development cost for FFXIV would be.

Edited, Mar 14th 2013 11:12pm by Khornette


Not necessarily. Development costs for one company are not necessarily analogous or proportional to another company, especially considering operating and support costs. There's a point of diminishing returns, as you have to employ a fairly significant staff just to maintain an MMO. Accountants, technicians, community liaisons, etc... lots of people behind the scenes, not to mention some pretty well-paid management and administration if you want qualified people. You can spend more than a million dollars a year just on personnel expenses easily. Factor in taxes, and 100k subs for a triple-A MMO is a game born in the grave. Most MMOs go free to play once subscriptions trend towards 250k subscribers, at least if this occurs early in the game's life cycle.


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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#290 Mar 14 2013 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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XI still has between 250-500K subscriptions as well (the latest mog marble sale figures put it around the 300K mark, but that number is actually growing as people return for the next expansion.) It's entirely possible that ARR can hit and sustain half a million subs for the year or so necessary to make money.

They'll also get a big initial cash infusion from the PS3ers, even as they give away hundreds of thousands of copies of the PC game to past subscribers. Unlike other console games, console MMOs have very little resale value initially (since the code can only be used once), so anyone who wants to play on PS3 will pretty much have to buy a copy that first year. (The resale value of console disks goes up once the price of the PC registration codes goes down, which is why people are still paying $30 for used copies of FFXI for Xbox 360 on eBay.)
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#291 Mar 14 2013 at 9:47 PM Rating: Default
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100K really ? Come on guys the game shipped 650K and flopped, Swotor needs a 500K sub to pay itself overtime, SE needs to pay for XIV and XIVARR, patches, expansions etc etc, we all seem to forget that if SE was so loaded with money, they would not literaly ask for our money to keep XIV afloat. If it does not swim this time around with good numbers is gonna sink, if they for example start off with a good 300k then there is hope, given that the game is actually good etc etc word of mouth will spread and they can pick up a few 100k here and there.

But 100K ? Yeah that will pretty much be the end.
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#292 Mar 14 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Even if FFXIV's subscription system doesn't work, the game could join many other Modern MMO's and go F2P. Offering micro-transactions for customers not willing to commit to a monthly subscription usually works out in the companies favor anyway, and it also brings more life into an MMO community. This also works out well for players who choose to retain their month subscription for the additional bonus' that they carry, because now they have more people to play with.

I'm not saying FFXIV will go free to play, just stating that it is an option in the occasion that the player base doesn't bounce back like we hope it will.
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#293 Mar 15 2013 at 3:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Even if FFXIV's subscription system doesn't work, the game could join many other Modern MMO's and go F2P. Offering micro-transactions for customers not willing to commit to a monthly subscription usually works out in the companies favor anyway, and it also brings more life into an MMO community. This also works out well for players who choose to retain their month subscription for the additional bonus' that they carry, because now they have more people to play with.

I think whether FtP brings in more cash than PtP is a question that's not as easy to answer as you make it look like.

Scenario 1: If everything is FtP, you earn exactly nothing.
Scenario 2: If most things are FtP, and only a few cosmetic ones are not, your profit stems only from players who are willing to fork over 50 bucks for an aethereal pony. While the world is full of idiots, not every idiot wants an aethereal pony.
Scenario 3: Many things are FtP, but certain features (like raid participation or items for faster progression) require you to pay on a case-by-case basis. That way, you generate first class and second class players, whereof the former may actually pay more than they would in a simple subscription model (see SWtoR; their system, which sells even GUI elements piecemeal, has often be describes as the most horrid abomination possible). Now that would **** me off, because I would most likely belong to the former group.
Scenario 4: PtW. Dies as soon as wealthy players have bought all the items, while the rest left long before.
Scenario 5: It strikes a perfect balance and customers perceive it as completely fair. Welcome to Wonderland.

Quote:
Offering micro-transactions for customers not willing to commit to a monthly subscription usually works out in the companies favor anyway, and it also brings more life into an MMO community.

It brings in a greater turnover of players (and freeriders like RMT), but I have yet to see proof that it leads to a greater overall retention rate.

Edited, Mar 15th 2013 6:02am by Rinsui
#294 Mar 15 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Default
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Which is why if you are going to explore free to play. You do not go full F2P. You do the hybrid model and offer a flexible payment plan. The model of pay doesn't affect retention rates unless one model brings in more revenue to fund more development. The retention rate all comes down to content in quantity and quality. Any vanity items available in the seperate F2P/B2P are included in the sub model free of charge.

P2P- The model for the consumer that wants everything in one package paying a recurring monthly fee with no nickel and diming for vanity items or content access restrictions. In my opinion we shouldn't even be required to buy expansions if it were a true P2P model. There should be no vanity purchase options, everything should be included in that subscription model.

B2P- Buy the box, buy the expansions, with purchaseable vanity options. There is no limit to accessible content provided they own the box that the certain content released in.

F2P- Allow players to play the vanilla game up to the primary cap. Limit character creation slots, races available, and limited available class/jobs. Basically from that point the player is given the option to buy everything they desire and reject what they feel is not viable.

Again I state that retention comes down to quality and quantity. If I did the hybrid I would create a little video preview showcasing everything content wise that the non subscription model players are missing. Not the story so far but the story ahead.
#295 Mar 15 2013 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshi has been very clear that the game will be a subscription based model, and that's it.
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#296 Mar 15 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Some people are being hung up on arbitrary use of numbers.

Anyways, Wint is right. It's not even in consideration, for reasons already explained by Yoshi and in this thread..
#297 Mar 15 2013 at 7:09 AM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
Yoshi has been very clear that the game will be a subscription based model, and that's it.

Look I am not soothsaying that the game is going to fail like some players. I actually hope it does well regardless of the payment option. Yoshi can say whatever he pleases and that confidence is admirable. However the playerbase dictates what payment model remains viable and not him. The numbers will show what unfolds.
#298 Mar 15 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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The company dictates the play model, not the players.

Again, people go free to play to salvage a larger chunk of the profit when numbers reach a certain threshold mainly because of investor pressure. Games like Aion had to appeal to publisher's demands. SWTOR also had to worry about licencing fees.

Again, this is all talked about in an interview. This isn't just Yoshida's confidence. This is Square Enix's stance. They're not making the game free to play - consider it them going for broke on this one.
#299 Mar 15 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Wint wrote:
Yoshi has been very clear that the game will be a subscription based model, and that's it.

Look I am not soothsaying that the game is going to fail like some players. I actually hope it does well regardless of the payment option. Yoshi can say whatever he pleases and that confidence is admirable. However the playerbase dictates what payment model remains viable and not him. The numbers will show what unfolds.


Like Hyrist said, this isn't just Yoshi, this is Square Enix saying this.
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#300 Mar 15 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
Hyrist wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Yes, but after calculating the overall development costs leading up to this point, how long does it take them to break even on that? $1.4 million, minus staff wages and server upkeep, etc, then put what is left towards some ungodly number. They'll need years of solid growth / retention, not just floating.


That's where you're wrong. SE owns the title entirely meaning there's no debt to repay except their own profit margin. They can swallow the redevelopment a hit in the profits of the company and just let FFXIV coast on it's normal development budget - cashing in solely on the 'redemption' value that will impact their console game sales while FFXIV takes itself slowly out of the red.

Profit in SE is pretty much viewed in total assets, not singular assets. Ones the initial investment cost for FFXIV is finished - so long as they mantain a stable population, they'll make great profits from the game even after pulling it out of the red.


I didn't mean to suggest that they had debt to be paid off. They are lucky in that regard. However, they do still have stock-holders and they need to be satisfied as well. If Quarter 4 should have seen profits of $500 million, but instead only reached $365 million, that will impact their dividends and they will not be happy. When this goes on for 2 years? They need to make money now.

Also know that I am not discounting the "redemption value" you speak of at all. Depending on how well the reboot goes, the reputation points could be worth double the cash intake for the future. What I do think is that for SE to get the redemption it needs, 100k subs isn't going to earn it for them. Players want diversity, a large population, to be able to find new friends if they want to. 100k subs over 10+ servers? Don't know if we'll get the right feel out of that.
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#301 Mar 15 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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You're too hung up on Wints numbers. 100k isn't even a likely low-point given the fact that we were managing 30k after the debacle of the first releace and the largest available online player base wasn't even tapped at that point.

Whatever subscription concerns I had as far as ones SE would get went out the window when Yoshi-P announced he was making a version for Chineese players. We'll probably stabilize around FFXI's numbers - and that's a conservative estimate.
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