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#152 Mar 07 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Unfortunately there are quite frequently classes with real, significant differences in their performance, and in high risk:reward situations, they can easily be the difference between making an encounter easy or nearly impossible. Goal-driven players will be seeking efficient routes to victory as a part of the challenge of the game, including the identification of "superior" classes and configurations.


Goal-driven players are also just as likely to form a reliable static party with their friends, and win with the jobs available to them. In fact, that's what happens in most linkshells, as shell members work together to get everyone through certain fights and missions.

I'm a believer that some jobs should always perform better in certain situations. It makes sense. Different jobs have different strengths, different mobs have different weaknesses. Different weapons have different stats. Different weapon types have different speeds. Different abilities do different things. Etc.

The hardcore players may get headaches over not having the job that does the absolute maximum damage per specific situation, but meanwhile, most gamers are simply happy to have jobs capable of getting the job done. And in FFXI, most jobs were capable of getting the job done in most situations.

EDIT: In addition, FFXI and FFXIV are built so that players can level several jobs, enhancing their usefulness in different scenarios. The leveling curve of FFXIV is shaping up to be way, way easier than the leveling of a character in FFXI. In other words, the people who'd get upset over having a job that's "not useful" will easily be able to level up other jobs to give themselves that feeling of usefulness that they need.

Edited, Mar 6th 2013 1:46pm by Thayos


Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.

That aside, I agree with most of what you said, although I guess I disagree with your conclusion. It's fine and to a degree inevitable to have a balance which depends upon "matchups." i.e., situationally useful classes/characters. They exist in most strategy and PvP games. However, that matchup balance has to be balanced as well, and in XI, it wasn't. That wasn't something charming about the game--it was a pain in the *** that led to a lot of resentment, and generally, players not having fun.

FFXI wasn't a good example of class balance even considering matchup balance. There were classes which were generally useless, and they weren't well distributed across encounter types. A 25% difference in performance between classes is fine; a 500% difference is not.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#153 Mar 07 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.

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#154 Mar 07 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Rpg players are a different breed than other gamers. They spend more time with the game. They can’t wait to get up or get home from work or schools so they can continue the story. It like reading a book you just cant put down or that movie you don't want to get up and go to the bathroom, but better because you are playing part of it. But unlike sports titles or COD the experience is over once you finish the RPG.. There is a beginning and a end. In the end you either felt wow this was awsum or I can’t believe I just wasted my time on this crap.

Rpgs are about story. If the story stinks so does the game. You need to feel like you are part of the story; you need to care for the other characters in the game. Story is the most important.

Ok MMO’s are still rpgs but they last a long time and have to fill allot more hours. The filler is what sat a MMO apart from a straigh up rpg. If people put the game down they may not come back. You can’t have constant story all the time. It would be impossible to keep writing a story that people would not finish. Also people play at different speeds. So that where the other elements come in and are basically filler to give the writers and programers more time to write more story lines.

The filler is also the battle mechanics and affects what you do in between the story line or even part of the story. Bad battle mechanics and a game fails...

People complain about grind but that the filler. Some people have lots of time to play and others don’t. Grind is to fill the time of players that have tons of time to play. Grind is fine as long as the reward is high enough. BCNM are filler and the drops low so they become filler etc.

In the end story is important for a rpg but for the MMO it is a combination of story and filler. The story has to be good but the game also needs to be fun too play.








Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:49am by Nashred

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:51am by Nashred
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#155 Mar 07 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.


This hasn't been my experience at all. I find that "class exclusion" tends to happen more with people shouting to organize pickup parties. In a ls environment, other members tend to be very helpful. Even in more hardcore linkshells, members will usually go out and level up different jobs together in order to increase the group's overall versatility.

To me, these things aren't on the lines of, "yay, yippee, I'm having fuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!" But, I've always enjoyed playing the game with others, whether that's leveling different jobs together or trying to figure out a strategy to beat the next boss without a cookie-cutter setup.

And while there were some fights in FFXI that were a little too class exclusive, most of the fights were not. I still remember playing through CoP (unnerfed) with a setup of bst, nin (taru), rdm, rdm, thief, whm. So many people in hardcore linkshells told me we'd never win with that setup, yet we always did. I don't think FFXI was as rigid as some people made it out to be, but everyone knows the game had a heavy population of min/maxers.
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#156 Mar 07 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Every game i have been has somewhat the same "ideas" when doing end game content. They find what is the best set up and they go by that. It is true that those set ups are the best and the easiest way to do things but not the only way. Many people that want to call themselves "pro" disregard others that try to do something different. I remember many times in wow or even way before that in l2 that we were half drunk and started forming parties randomly (with me being a healer and a pal as a tank we didn't care for the rest) and aiming for random raids. We had many people laughing at us and well we wiped most of the times but we also had times (when we weren't fully drunk) that we won the fights.

What i am trying to say is that doing it organized with the most effective set up is good, but a little crazy play is not bad. If you don't care if you will wipe its good to challenge yourself and try something different. After all its a game and having fun is what matters.

Therefore especially when i was playing WoW i found 3 kinds of Guilds. I joined all three kinds and enjoyed playing with them.

a) Hardcore end-game guilds. <--Those were the "best" when doing end-game content. They accepted in their ranks only people that had the lvl, gear and experience to fight. Very effective and organized. The bad in them is that they would forbid you to join other raids other than your guilds (if there is a raid limit per day or week) and they also wanted you on in every raid.

b) Semi hardcore end-game guilds <--They usually accept people that again have the lvl somewhat good gear and with some experience with fights. The difference with the "a" guilds is that while they are good at end game and they still have a level of seriousness they are more relaxed with rules and usually ,in the ones i have been, do more "crazy" stuff when bored.

c) Social guilds <--They are the best for leveling. They are easy going to its fullest. They do not care about the end-game and considerate in leveling and exploring the game. Overall they are a fun kind. The problem with them is that if you hit level cap and you want to go further ahead with raids, they are not your people.

So i am betting my non existent gil that this is what will happen in ARR as well when it comes out.

The best guild i found is the "b" or a hybrid of "b" and "c". While the "a" is awesome i become bored cause in all honesty i don't want a second job in game.
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#157 Mar 07 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking on guilds, my past experience with way too many guilds form Group A makes me want to start my own LS in ARR with a strict "No Douches" policy.

But if I do that, I may not have enough members to run anything...
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#158 Mar 07 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.


This hasn't been my experience at all. I find that "class exclusion" tends to happen more with people shouting to organize pickup parties. In a ls environment, other members tend to be very helpful. Even in more hardcore linkshells, members will usually go out and level up different jobs together in order to increase the group's overall versatility.

To me, these things aren't on the lines of, "yay, yippee, I'm having fuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!" But, I've always enjoyed playing the game with others, whether that's leveling different jobs together or trying to figure out a strategy to beat the next boss without a cookie-cutter setup.

And while there were some fights in FFXI that were a little too class exclusive, most of the fights were not. I still remember playing through CoP (unnerfed) with a setup of bst, nin (taru), rdm, rdm, thief, whm. So many people in hardcore linkshells told me we'd never win with that setup, yet we always did. I don't think FFXI was as rigid as some people made it out to be, but everyone knows the game had a heavy population of min/maxers.


That really all depends on what's at stake. For a lot of the endgame content, class exclusion wasn't just common practice, but expected practice. You're not going to spend hours of group farming and then risk it all by using some harebrained configuration. Your group will be upset and resent your leadership. So no, I don't agree that it wasn't much of a problem.

"Increase the group's overall versatility" sounds to me like some pretty positive spin for "level up the right classes so we can win more and get our drops". Are you in politics? Smiley: lol I mean, at least during the several years I played, there were linkshell statics for leveling jobs, but they were primarily for mages and tanks. Nobody was ever worried about improving the group's versatility with more DRG's or THF's or PUP's or DRK's etc., etc.,...
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#159 Mar 07 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, while I really enjoyed doing COP with a makeshift group with my static, we did die several times and experienced a fair bit of frustration. While that was fine for COP because we were clearing a one-time hurdle, when you're looking at events that you'll have to do a dozen or more times just to outfit your group with their sought-after drops, and the attempts are bottlenecked by hours of farming or camping, it becomes a lot more important to use a configuration that isn't going to succeed only 1/5 times.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#160 Mar 07 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Speaking on guilds, my past experience with way too many guilds form Group A makes me want to start my own LS in ARR with a strict "No Douches" policy.

But if I do that, I may not have enough members to run anything...


Yes that was another problem with them. I 've been ****** off way too many times to ever think of getting in a guild/ls/clan with the same ideas with them. Love end game content but i want a more relaxed approach.
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#161 Mar 07 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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We had an amusing conversation in my shell yesterday.

I said that I'd rather have a competent newbie for NNI than an incompetent veteran.

The LS owner wondered aloud if there was such a thing as an "incompetent veteran."

Within a minute we'd listed a dozen such players, the server's primary idiots, most of whom have managed to acquire multiple relics and Empyreans despite being morons.

"Well, we know who not to invite to this shell, now," the leader quipped.
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#162 Mar 07 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Most linkshells full of goal-driven players are not "groups of friends" but rather people who can more or less get along and have similar player goals. As a result, they tend to feel very comfortable excluding people who are not useful towards their goal.


This hasn't been my experience at all. I find that "class exclusion" tends to happen more with people shouting to organize pickup parties. In a ls environment, other members tend to be very helpful. Even in more hardcore linkshells, members will usually go out and level up different jobs together in order to increase the group's overall versatility.

To me, these things aren't on the lines of, "yay, yippee, I'm having fuuuunnnnnnnnn!!!" But, I've always enjoyed playing the game with others, whether that's leveling different jobs together or trying to figure out a strategy to beat the next boss without a cookie-cutter setup.

And while there were some fights in FFXI that were a little too class exclusive, most of the fights were not. I still remember playing through CoP (unnerfed) with a setup of bst, nin (taru), rdm, rdm, thief, whm. So many people in hardcore linkshells told me we'd never win with that setup, yet we always did. I don't think FFXI was as rigid as some people made it out to be, but everyone knows the game had a heavy population of min/maxers.


I agree 100 percent...

Also most link shells if they survive people become friends. People that don't feel this way is it is because of their personality. Some people just don't get along with others or are abrasive. .. You see jack --------- everyday in FFXI.. these people seem to jump ls or mostly do pick ups to get there stuff done.

I think one of the problems in FFXI right now is people are just playing with friends. It really is hard to get a new shell, these people have been playing together for years and really don't want new people.. They are used to playing together. My LS has been together forever and are all really close, they are also very mature and no drama. Problem is the two leaders have left the game and this was maybe 1.5 years ago. No one really has stepped up to the plate so less gets done than it used too.
I hate to leave them so I do more statics now.





Edited, Mar 7th 2013 12:30pm by Nashred
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#163 Mar 07 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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teravibe wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Speaking on guilds, my past experience with way too many guilds form Group A makes me want to start my own LS in ARR with a strict "No Douches" policy.

But if I do that, I may not have enough members to run anything...


Yes that was another problem with them. I 've been ****** off way too many times to ever think of getting in a guild/ls/clan with the same ideas with them. Love end game content but i want a more relaxed approach.


Yeah.. I left 3 different linkshells in 1.0, citing artistic differences.

In XI, I could suck it up and deal with angry leaders screaming and berating just for the loots, but in 1.0 it got to a point where I realized, I'm here to have fun and had more that a few shells with the wrong attitude. One was even a psuedo-social with endgame hopes. Full of casual players, but the leader would just go off in the chat for losing baby Garuda or something instead of helping the new players understand why we lost, or what we did wrong. I was sitting in that party, reading the leaders "This is disgraceful, you should all be ashamed of that." and said "You know what? I don't like how you treat people. After we win, I'm leaving the shell." (I didn't need the win, but a friend of mine did and was in the party.)

And that is the backstory of the future "No Douches" linkshell.

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#164 Mar 07 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Increase the group's overall versatility" sounds to me like some pretty positive spin for "level up the right classes so we can win more and get our drops".


Um, no.

Winning has never been a problem for me.
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#165 Mar 07 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Um... Darnus bested your entire crew with one surprise attack, then became the direct conduit for the decent of Dalamud - chosen by Bahamut himself. ****, I'd be prancing. I wanted that ******* dead in that moment.

There was little personal attachment to Cloud as a direct player persona. It was only till near the end that you started feeling for him. Most of the time you were feeling for other characters.

Darnus had pretty much the same achievements as Sephrioth did when it came to raw actions. "Burn down a hometown?" Pretty much every town suffered damage from Dalamud. And the MMO characters had no such hometown so that kinda disqualifies that.

Both did the fire walk thing. Both dropped a huge rock on the planet. (Only one of them was badass enough to have Bahamut inside that rock though.) Both died before seeing their plan come to fruition and both's big rock got stopped by some mysterious power. (Though we know not what stopped Bahamut.) And both had questionable sexual preferences. Everything else is arguing personality, which comes to taste.

I have no comment on the discussion of party dynamics. I've no idea how this game will work out in this regard. I did complete Nael Darnus in a pick up group, so I know that the fights will likely be designed with enough leeway to complete them with various people. Various class set ups will depend on the fights themselves.
#166 Mar 07 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.



Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.



Yes because sephiroth threw a granade blow nibelhelm up and dint even look back..... Jesus christ, have you played FF7 ?

Oh yeah so many differences... Please do tell me 2 of them i'll wait right here for all them 2 differeces between them... Oh and archadia also conscripted soldiers from those kingdoms it invaded. Also you act like 1.0 was not a complete game, it was, it just sucked, also the information on archadia is not even from completing the game, you kill 3 rabtis and it shows up on the bestiary or whatever it was called lol
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#167 Mar 07 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Um... Darnus bested your entire crew with one surprise attack, then became the direct conduit for the decent of Dalamud - chosen by Bahamut himself. ****, I'd be prancing. I wanted that ******* dead in that moment.

There was little personal attachment to Cloud as a direct player persona. It was only till near the end that you started feeling for him. Most of the time you were feeling for other characters.

Darnus had pretty much the same achievements as Sephrioth did when it came to raw actions. "Burn down a hometown?" Pretty much every town suffered damage from Dalamud. And the MMO characters had no such hometown so that kinda disqualifies that.

Both did the fire walk thing. Both dropped a huge rock on the planet. (Only one of them was badass enough to have Bahamut inside that rock though.) Both died before seeing their plan come to fruition and both's big rock got stopped by some mysterious power. (Though we know not what stopped Bahamut.) And both had questionable sexual preferences. Everything else is arguing personality, which comes to taste.

I have no comment on the discussion of party dynamics. I've no idea how this game will work out in this regard. I did complete Nael Darnus in a pick up group, so I know that the fights will likely be designed with enough leeway to complete them with various people. Various class set ups will depend on the fights themselves.


Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Um... Darnus bested your entire crew with one surprise attack, then became the direct conduit for the decent of Dalamud - chosen by Bahamut himself. ****, I'd be prancing. I wanted that ******* dead in that moment.

There was little personal attachment to Cloud as a direct player persona. It was only till near the end that you started feeling for him. Most of the time you were feeling for other characters.

Darnus had pretty much the same achievements as Sephrioth did when it came to raw actions. "Burn down a hometown?" Pretty much every town suffered damage from Dalamud. And the MMO characters had no such hometown so that kinda disqualifies that.

Both did the fire walk thing. Both dropped a huge rock on the planet. (Only one of them was badass enough to have Bahamut inside that rock though.) Both died before seeing their plan come to fruition and both's big rock got stopped by some mysterious power. (Though we know not what stopped Bahamut.) And both had questionable sexual preferences. Everything else is arguing personality, which comes to taste.

I have no comment on the discussion of party dynamics. I've no idea how this game will work out in this regard. I did complete Nael Darnus in a pick up group, so I know that the fights will likely be designed with enough leeway to complete them with various people. Various class set ups will depend on the fights themselves.


Wow talk about fanboy... Damm! I hate sephiroth, i would put kuja or exdeath before him, but to say darnus was equal to sephiroth... that is just kinda sad.... sephiroth not only owned angeal and genesis in a 2vs1 like they where amateurs, but beat zack like he was a toddler, then proceded burn nibehelm down(I guess that was before owning zack) killed a flower girl, killed a president who was guarded by an army, taunted you all the way to a creater with a clone might i add, then awoke, unleashed some weapons, put a mega barrier around it, and waited like a boss till you showed up to kick his ***...

Also sephiroth Summoned his meteor, darnus meteor was already casted hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and it was not like Bahamut chose him, he was the only crazy person to try and guide the meteor back to the planet) he was basically a puppet that got to do what sephiroth did, with better CGI and stuff lol
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#168 Mar 07 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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"Increase the group's overall versatility" sounds to me like some pretty positive spin for "level up the right classes so we can win more and get our drops".


Um, no.

Winning has never been a problem for me.


I wasn't talking about you, specifically, just your assertion that this reflected the normal player mentality in FFXI.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#169 Mar 07 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I found his prancing to be totally the opposite of badass.... Sephirtoh destroyed your entire hometown, looked at you and left all baddass like "Yeah i did it and what" this guy was all over the flames like he did something....

Yeah grafh is badass.... He is grafh afterall.


Sephiroth is not the first guy to do that "walk away without even looking at the explosion" thing :D

But I still think they have far more differences then similarities. Add the fact that we know much much more about Archadians, because that is a complete game. 1.0 hinted at much more in those echoes, like the indoctrination of children, etc.



Yes because sephiroth threw a granade blow nibelhelm up and dint even look back..... Jesus christ, have you played FF7 ?

Oh yeah so many differences... Please do tell me 2 of them i'll wait right here for all them 2 differeces between them... Oh and archadia also conscripted soldiers from those kingdoms it invaded. Also you act like 1.0 was not a complete game, it was, it just sucked, also the information on archadia is not even from completing the game, you kill 3 rabtis and it shows up on the bestiary or whatever it was called lol


2 things:

1) Please stop pasting the quote in twice..
2) Please stop taking this so personally.

The first part is a joke, but "Bad guy walking against the wind" is not an original scene in ANYTHING. It's the most overused cliche in the history of ever, and you are crediting this to FF7.

I listed NUMEROUS differences earlier, but I'm quite over this derail. You're right Ostia. This game is FF12 online, and the developers should be ashamed for using the same themes from the previous 13 entries in the series.



Edited, Mar 7th 2013 8:45pm by Louiscool
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#170 Mar 07 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
1) Please stop pasting the quote in twice..
It's a glitch in Zam with the recent update from Firefox. When you use the "quote" button along with reply it double quotes. The issue was brought up with the admins and, last I read that particular thread, they're aware of it and (probably) working on it.
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#171 Mar 07 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wasn't talking about you, specifically, just your assertion that this reflected the normal player mentality in FFXI.


I think my views are closer to that of the average FF player. Most players like me don't feel the need to hang around on the forums, but most of the linkshells I've been in are filled mostly with casual and semi-hardcore players who don't really care about not always having optimal party setups, the best gear, etc.

Most people I've encountered in FFXI (especially recently) really enjoy leveling different jobs. So, leveling new jobs to be more useful isn't a bad thing at all. Heck, I just got done leveling dark knight to 99. Grinding levels has been part of the Final Fantasy franchise from the very beginning, and people who really are opposed to leveling up different jobs/classes should probably play any number of other MMORPGs that only let you level one class.

EDIT: I agree that this wasn't good game design years ago, when a good exp party was 4k/hour killing weapons in sky... but now, leveling a job to 99 is so incredibly easy, there's really no reason for anyone to feel like they can't be useful in parties. Even people who are in bad linkshells filled with unhelpful people can still level their "needed" job, if that's what they feel they need to do.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 5:55pm by Thayos
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#172 Mar 07 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wow talk about fanboy... Damm! I hate sephiroth, i would put kuja or exdeath before him, but to say darnus was equal to sephiroth... that is just kinda sad.... sephiroth not only owned angeal and genesis in a 2vs1 like they where amateurs, but beat zack like he was a toddler, then proceded burn nibehelm down(I guess that was before owning zack) killed a flower girl, killed a president who was guarded by an army, taunted you all the way to a creater with a clone might i add, then awoke, unleashed some weapons, put a mega barrier around it, and waited like a boss till you showed up to kick his ***...

Also sephiroth Summoned his meteor, darnus meteor was already casted hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and it was not like Bahamut chose him, he was the only crazy person to try and guide the meteor back to the planet) he was basically a puppet that got to do what sephiroth did, with better CGI and stuff lol


Not fanboing, you're taking so much side story and backstory BS as trying to push up Sephrioth that you ignore the crap that belittled sephiroth too.

First off. Let's break down the accomplishments.

1. Dueling between Angeal and Genesis. All three opponents were holding back in that fight. Evidenced by the fact that Genisis forced Sephiroth to stop holding back himself by ramping up his own combat intensity (And queing his theme). The pecking order was never established between them because Angeal interrupted the fight (twice). As it was plotted that Genisis was essentially Sephiroth's equal until he started to corrode. There are several other instances in which this is indicated as well. It's symbolized entirely by having the opposing 'one wing' to Sephiroth of the same color. So no, that achievement is taken away from Sephrioth. I'm ****** they never made the sequel that was supposed to bring Genisis up as the primary antagonist for a full game - it was planned, then scrapped.

2. Zack's Sephiroth fight. He 'Beat Zack like a whelp' that's equivalent to any main villian beating the crap out of the Heros. You cite Exdeath above Sephrioth, but remember Galuf from FFV beat Exdeath down on his own (giving his life to defend his friends and grandaughter). Sephrioth on the other hand, immeidately got pelted by an emo kid in the back (who then managed to survive a stab wound through the chest to kill him). No such trite weaknesses from Nael. He wipes the floor with an entire party in one non-evaded blow. (and can do so in the actual gameplay with one good combo if you're not paying attention.)

The Rest.
It's been an ongoing debate whether or not this influence, or even Sephiroth's motivations after the point of going mad, are even his own. You claim Darnus to be the puppet of Bahamut, Sephiroth can very well be argued to be the same for Jenova. Every thing he does from the moment he discovers his origins on is an attempted replication of his mother's behavior. Even when he came back in Advent Children, he was still trying to be like 'Mother'.

In fact, if you really dig into it, it's very difficult to tell where the influence of Jenova ends and Sephiroth begins, and vice versa. But that's a discussion for another time. Suffice to say, the very self identity of both characters are muddied by the will of an external source - wherby their accomplishments are demeaned by them.

But there are some historical inaccuracies.

Meteor Meteria finds nearby space bodies and pulls them downward, it does not in fact create them. Therefore Meteor Meteria and Project Meteor are essentially the same, with the difference being that Dalamud was in fact a prison for Bahamut.

Additionally, Weapons were unleashed by the Planet, not by Sephiroth. It was reactionary to the use of Meteor meteria and Sephiroth's interference in the life-stream. The barrier around Northern Crater? Unknown if the origin source is actually Sephiroth or the Planet itself. It's existence was merely a plot device to close a loophole if it was not there.

That's not to say Sephiroth/Jenova (I tend to regard them as one entity) is not a superior villian to Nael Darnus. I'm simply putting Sephiroth as a villian into the proper light and perspective. His story has a lot of complexity that adds to the depth of his character, but tends to lessen his tale as a 'badass'. Then agian, the Villians of Final Fantasy games tend to leave a bit to be desired in the 'badass' department. Any who do wind up being heroes in disguise or victims of circumstance.



Darnus was created to be the catalyst to the Seventh Umbral Era. In that, he not only served his purpose, but played his part well. As a villian, he is derivative from Sephrioth in action, the Judges from XII in appearance, and mixed Kuja and Kefka in demeanor. This combination worked and his impact was memorable for what it was. But even I don't consider him a bonafied badass.

I could analyze the reasons why there's not much badassery in Final Fantasy but I think that's a topic for another time.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 11:27pm by Hyrist
#173 Mar 07 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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I wasn't talking about you, specifically, just your assertion that this reflected the normal player mentality in FFXI.


I think my views are closer to that of the average FF player. Most players like me don't feel the need to hang around on the forums, but most of the linkshells I've been in are filled mostly with casual and semi-hardcore players who don't really care about not always having optimal party setups, the best gear, etc.

Most people I've encountered in FFXI (especially recently) really enjoy leveling different jobs. So, leveling new jobs to be more useful isn't a bad thing at all. Heck, I just got done leveling dark knight to 99. Grinding levels has been part of the Final Fantasy franchise from the very beginning, and people who really are opposed to leveling up different jobs/classes should probably play any number of other MMORPGs that only let you level one class.

EDIT: I agree that this wasn't good game design years ago, when a good exp party was 4k/hour killing weapons in sky... but now, leveling a job to 99 is so incredibly easy, there's really no reason for anyone to feel like they can't be useful in parties. Even people who are in bad linkshells filled with unhelpful people can still level their "needed" job, if that's what they feel they need to do.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 5:55pm by Thayos


I can't comment on the current state of FFXI, but in years past, I got around, not just in the forums, but in the game. I participated in many linkshells, many which were not HNM shells but aspired to be one day (which seemed to be the most common type of LS). So I'm inclined to think that my views are closer to the average player--we'll just have to settle for disagreement on that point most likely.

Grinding a job to cap back when was, as you well know, nothing like it is now. It took a very long time and a considerable amount of effort. Even to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 was a swear-inducing moment for many players. It was not some trifle that most players undertook just for the joy of the grind. It was a means to an end, and that end was endgame, and that endgame was rife with exclusionary views towards many of the players who wanted to be there. There weren't many players who thought, "Wow, look at all those giant dragons and such; fortunately for me I never want to have a chance to fight them."
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#174 Mar 07 2013 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Grinding a job to cap back then was, as you well know, nothing like it is now. It took a very long time and a considerable amount of effort. Even to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 was a swear-inducing moment for many players.


This is pretty much the most true sentence ever written.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 11:12pm by Ryklin
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#175 Mar 08 2013 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Even to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 waEven to die in an XP party w/o an R2/3 was a swear-inducing moment for many players.s a swear-inducing moment for many players.

Oh yes! I remember whitemages refusing to get up for 15 minutes, because the redmage's R1 (Raise 1) just didn't cut it. And who would dare to challenge the whims of a white mage? Smiley: lol
#176 Mar 08 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now everyone wants Arise Smiley: tongue
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