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What are Yoshi P's credentials? Follow

#27 Feb 27 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I'm going to agree with Poubelle on this one. I'm going to agree with catwho, too. Yoshi-P seems like an excellent project manager-- someone I could even aspire to be more like. I think regarding that, he couldn't be doing much more.

However, his design credentials do not instill me with any faith. He doesn't have some great track record as a game designer, and I can't tell you how many people I know who play lots of MMOs hardcore, have all the theories about game design in the world, and would be absolute disasters. More likely, his designs will be pretty average, maybe a bit better than your average MMO.

Very few game designers are consistently successful because very few understand why a game is successful. They develop their own theories about games just like all of you do--they have no expert knowledge of the subject. They don't learn about it or study it. They play games, they take note of what they like and don't like--maybe they even take note of what other people seem to like or dislike. But what it boils down to is that they're mostly winging it. They're not operating off of some checklist or guidebook, so they never know if they're doing something correctly or not. And sometimes that works out, but mostly not. And when a hit game comes along, they'll remake that game in sequels for a decade, or other designers will copy large parts of the design, because by god, they finally found something that works.

Point being, having faith in any game designer to be consistently successful is pretty much nuts. Almost all of them have some failures on their resume, and are perfectly capable of making a flop.

kainsilv wrote:
Better than yours?!

I'm a firm believer that with commitment, passion and drive you can accomplish most anything.


So would you let your mother, who is probably more motivated and driven to protect you than anyone else in the world (sorry if this is a touchy assumption), perform open heart surgery on you (assuming she's not a heart surgeon)? Or would you want the person with the most skill and experience? I've worked in education for many years, and it's not actually that different from game design in a lot of ways--teachers are trying to design an experience that will engage their students, and make them excited about participating in class. And I can't tell you how many committed, passionate, driven people have failed as teachers. Now, -eventually- they will learn from their mistakes, persist at growth, persevere and emerge successful. But FFXIV doesn't have the time for those mistakes.
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#28 Feb 27 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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TIL: MMO design is as difficult as open heart surgery Smiley: laugh

Good one Kachi.
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#29 Feb 27 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
So would you let your mother, who is probably more motivated and driven to protect you than anyone else in the world (sorry if this is a touchy assumption), perform open heart surgery on you (assuming she's not a heart surgeon)? Or would you want the person with the most skill and experience?


Can we just stop with the bad analogies? Yoshi-P has experience in the game industry.
#30 Feb 27 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
TIL: MMO design is as difficult as open heart surgery Smiley: laugh

Good one Kachi.


You laugh, but let me paint a picture for you: The percentage of open heart surgeries that are successful is about 97%. Compare that to the percentage of MMOs that launch successfully.

So no, I'm saying that for professionals in their field, launching a successful MMO is HARDER than open heart surgery.

Geffe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
So would you let your mother, who is probably more motivated and driven to protect you than anyone else in the world (sorry if this is a touchy assumption), perform open heart surgery on you (assuming she's not a heart surgeon)? Or would you want the person with the most skill and experience?


Can we just stop with the bad analogies? Yoshi-P has experience in the game industry.


Not much! Certainly not enough to believe that he has the skill to be incredibly successful.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Feb 27 2013 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't know 20 years meant "Not much".

I'll link this again in case you missed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naoki_Yoshida
#32 Feb 27 2013 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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It might have been said already but 1. Anything was better than what was before, and 2. Throw enough money at something and watch it succeed.

Those two rules apply to anything in life really; elections, pop music, etc.

However in order for something to not be a fluke there has to be a glimmer of something substantial and I see that in Yoshi-P. Regardless of his past, his performance now is all that should matter. The more I hear and see, the more of a believer I become.

But I believe there are a lot of things, a lot of people could do if given the chance.

To undercut your analogy Kachi I'd say that it would be more apt to say that the mother is herself a doctor, just with no experience in MMOs er...heart surgery. She's read all about the procedure, knows what to do, and has a passion for heart surgeries. In comparison the older doctor isn't as passionate as he once was, is ready to retire, coasts through and is maybe careless through a procedure, perhaps while letting a resident perform a large part of the surgery. If you'd heard that the older doctor botched his last surgery, you might be more willing to pick mommy, lol.

OT:
I don't know of many passionate teachers who I work with on a daily basis (at the secondary level) who failed (or are failing). Those who do fail is most likely a direct result of classroom control (or lack thereof).

All of the teachers who are the best at what they do (about 20%) will never fail; they are passionate and committed. They are using technology, participating in groups, going to inservices and going back to school. Somewhat ironically a portion of these great teachers go on to be administrators because of their type A personality traits.

The big middle (60%) do OK (there are some passionate people in this group but just do not have what it takes to be an excellent teacher; lack of commitment/or they cannot control their classes), while the remaining 20% are just there earning a paycheck; it's embarrassing frankly.
#33 Feb 27 2013 at 8:05 PM Rating: Default
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And if he were making Final Bomberman XIV, or his games were huge hits, that would be very encouraging. An MMO is a whole nother baby, and his experience is below average if anything for someone in his position. Look at the leads for other MMOs that failed, consider their track records, and it's apparent why Yoshi-P doesn't seem that experienced.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#34 Feb 27 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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Yoshi-P- Community organizer Smiley: laugh
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#35 Feb 27 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think I'd want Yoshi-P performing open heart surgery on me... but I think I'll let him design an MMO.

Honestly, you probably wouldn't want someone with decades of experience in MMO design running this show... we actually tried that already, look what happened. This project called for a fresh perspective and it got one.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Judge his design when you play it.
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#36 Feb 27 2013 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Throw enough money at something and watch it succeed.

Those two rules apply to anything in life really; elections, pop music, etc.


SWTOR?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#37 Feb 27 2013 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know of many passionate teachers who I work with on a daily basis (at the secondary level) who failed (or are failing). Those who do fail is most likely a direct result of classroom control (or lack thereof).

All of the teachers who are the best at what they do (about 20%) will never fail; they are passionate and committed. They are using technology, participating in groups, going to inservices and going back to school. Somewhat ironically a portion of these great teachers go on to be administrators because of their type A personality traits.

The big middle (60%) do OK (there are some passionate people in this group but just do not have what it takes to be an excellent teacher; lack of commitment/or they cannot control their classes), while the remaining 20% are just there earning a paycheck; it's embarrassing frankly.


You must not have worked with many newer teachers. They'll prove to you that there's a huge difference between trying your hardest and being successful.

Quote:
Yoshi-P- Community organizer Smiley: laugh


Well, I will say that I'd pick Yoshi-P over McCain any day. Probably even as president of the U.S..
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Feb 27 2013 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:


SWTOR?


If other Bioware games/or MMOs sucked then SWTOR would look pretty good. Plus there's spending money and spending money with discretion. Either that or it wasn't enough money. :D


Kachi wrote:

You must not have worked with many newer teachers. They'll prove to you that there's a huge difference between trying your hardest and being successful.


All of the new teachers I've worked with for the past 5 years have been pink-slipped or laid off, and are now long term subs/off to other districts/doing something else. But I've worked with student teachers and 1st year teachers who are almost always full of vigor. And they do well or well enough; again, not everyone is going to be a "rockstar" teacher. To reiterate, the main problem with first year teachers, at least in my side of the district is classroom control/discipline.

----

In the end, especially in the MMO industry it seems like it's, "What have you done for me lately?" and so far there's nothing to doubt Yoshi-P's progress. But he's in a decent position if he just works hard. IF he fails, then it was like, well OK that was a monumental task. IF he succeeds then it was like OMFG OUR SAVIOR!!!11

Should we hail the man as our messiah? No, of course not, but who cares about his past, if he can get results, especially since the decision is and has been made for the past 2 years.
#39 Feb 27 2013 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess I still find this idea that any problem can be solved with enough money and/or passion a bit naive, to be honest. There are many passionate failures, and many well-funded failures, and one doesn't have to look very hard for either, particularly in the entertainment industry.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 Feb 27 2013 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I guess I still find this idea that any problem can be solved with enough money and/or passion a bit naive, to be honest. There are many passionate failures, and many well-funded failures, and one doesn't have to look very hard for either, particularly in the entertainment industry.



I agree. But its all a matter of degrees; not naïveté. Like in my first post I think there is a very smart/hard worker in Yoshi-P; a glimmer that is responsible for his success. Throwing money at him will make him flourish.

Throwing money at The Spirits Within was a misallocation of resources. There was nothing substantial there. A vanity project.

But the missing piece of the troika of money and passion, is luck. And that's created by taking calculated gambles and directing that passion on the right things. Management instead of fluff. Communication instead of closed doors. Progress instead of passiveness.

Most companies make money by doing these sorts of things. Sure there are flops especially in entertainment, but that's why you take calculated risks, and spend less on something unproven and more on something that has a track record of being successful. And that's why most companies stay in business.

I realized I just kinda disproved my own point, but I think Yoshi-P should be given such a break because of how unique this situation is. Se was pretty much damned if you do, but have found a seed and placed all of their money into not failing.

#41 Feb 27 2013 at 11:46 PM Rating: Default
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Luck surely has a lot to do with many success stories, but I prefer skill. And that's where my skepticism stems from. I don't have enough evidence to believe that the skill is there. I'm not saying that it isn't, just that I haven't seen it. Skill as a project manager, most likely, but doesn't translate to skill in game design... which leaves us with luck. And for me, luck is not enough to bolster confidence. SE decided to gamble on FFXIV; that doesn't mean I will. And in fact, I've never regretted passing on a chance to back a gambler. Most of them lose.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Feb 28 2013 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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If Yoshi P was the only one designing ARR, I'd also be worried. But his job is not to design every little blade of grass or to determine the proper length of the much-debated global cool down. His job is to lead the team that is making those design decisions and guide them in the right direction. Ultimately, that's more project management than it is design.

He's also taken on the role of "evangelist" for the game, and that's something which has instilled a lot of confidence in us as well.
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#43 Feb 28 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
If Yoshi P was the only one designing ARR, I'd also be worried. But his job is not to design every little blade of grass or to determine the proper length of the much-debated global cool down. His job is to lead the team that is making those design decisions and guide them in the right direction. Ultimately, that's more project management than it is design.

He's also taken on the role of "evangelist" for the game, and that's something which has instilled a lot of confidence in us as well.


Your point is taken, and I certainly would not fault Yoshi-P if ARR fails. But really, isn't that even worse? If Yoshi-P is not responsible for the major design decisions, and merely plays a role in steering the direction, why should that give us any more faith? Now we have nameless game designers (at least unknown to the masses) who hold the future of the game in their hands.

For example, the cooldown is a huge matter. As any good game designer knows, a small change like that creates a dominal effect in the design which -should- impact many other aspects of the game. If you just let Joe Designer go and reduce it by half a second because it makes the combat seem a bit faster paced, you also have to consider the impact on every encounter in the game, as well as the implications for party chat and cooperative mechanics. It's these kinds of problems that make me almost prefer a single cook in the kitchen.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44Poubelle, Posted: Feb 28 2013 at 10:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Kachi makes a good point. Whenever people doubt ARR, fans will often reply with "Square Enix won't LET this fail. They're putting tons of money into it."
#45 Feb 28 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Poubelle wrote:
Kachi makes a good point. Whenever people doubt ARR, fans will often reply with "Square Enix won't LET this fail. They're putting tons of money into it."

Well... I think we can look at tons of bad huge budget games, Hollywood movies, etc. and instantly discredit THAT poor argument. The game needs heart (and solid ideas) and Square Enix throwing money at it won't necessarily do that.


This is a MMO that will constantly be worked on and evolved. Once a movie is released, that's pretty much it. Almost the same with non MMO games. You get your patches and maybe some DLC. Then there is Mass Effect 3, where the ending was redone. The thing with other MMOs that have failed is they chose to give up on them. SE has stated they they will keep working on XIV. Shows heart to me.
#46 Feb 28 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
Poubelle wrote:
Kachi makes a good point. Whenever people doubt ARR, fans will often reply with "Square Enix won't LET this fail. They're putting tons of money into it."

Well... I think we can look at tons of bad huge budget games, Hollywood movies, etc. and instantly discredit THAT poor argument. The game needs heart (and solid ideas) and Square Enix throwing money at it won't necessarily do that.


I don't consider myself a "White Knight" by any means, but I am going to don a cream colored cloak for a moment.

I believe the game developers do have heart. Enough so to say "***** it, we'll update the current BAD version to help the current players and also build a new structure on the side for the new release." That is quite the undertaking, financials set aside. Changing the company's PR culture by being more open and communicative is another big step (even despite all the NA negativity that they see / get Smiley: glare)

Yes, SE is also throwing a nerve-racking amount of money into this reboot and will most likely still see losses for the first quarter or two even if it succeeds. Despite that, I think they have the requisite pieces in their plan to have the chance to succeed. It's all there, let's just hope the ideas are solid enough to make the effort worthwhile.
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#47 Feb 28 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Based on the videos I've seen and the stories I've read, I think some die-hard gaming enthusiasts are being a little too critical about the design of FFXIV:ARR.

Step back and look at this from the mindset of the average gamer (and not people who feel personally offended by someone else having Legacy status, or the initial version of game being bad), and Final Fantasy XIV is shaping up to be a fun, solid, beautiful game filled with throwbacks the Final Fantasy franchise.

We can talk all we want about game mechanics, design gimmicks, etc., but at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself basic questions such as:

1) Is the game enjoyable? (Looks like it will be, from all the videos I've seen)
2) Is the game broken? (Too early to know, but I don't imagine any aspect of this game being broken at launch like v1.0 was)
3) Is it nice to look at? (**** yes)
4) Is the user interface seamless? (Both user interfaces seem flawless)
5) Is there lots to do? (questing, story missions, hunters manuals, hamlet, FATE, dungeons, crystal tower, labrynth, leves, solo and party play, grand companies, free companies, crafting.... I'd say yes)
6) Stuff to do for hardcore gamers? (yes, see above)
7) Do people want to play this game? (yes, including gamers in the untapped PS3 market)

There will always be things for armchair game developers to second-guess. At the end of the day though, a game is either good or bad.

I've simply seen too much of FFXIV:ARR to honestly believe it will be bad.

Edited, Feb 28th 2013 10:26am by Thayos
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#48 Feb 28 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Based on the videos I've seen and the stories I've read, I think some die-hard gaming enthusiasts are being a little too critical about the design of FFXIV:ARR.

Step back and look at this from the mindset of the average gamer (and not people who feel personally offended by someone else having Legacy status, or the initial version of game being bad), and Final Fantasy XIV is shaping up to be a fun, solid, beautiful game filled with throwbacks the Final Fantasy franchise.

We can talk all we want about game mechanics, design gimmicks, etc., but at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself basic questions such as:

1) Is the game enjoyable? (Looks like it will be, from all the videos I've seen)
2) Is the game broken? (Too early to know, but I don't imagine any aspect of this game being broken at launch like v1.0 was)
3) Is it nice to look at? (**** yes)
4) Is the user interface seamless? (Both user interfaces seem flawless)
5) Is there lots to do? (questing, story missions, hunters manuals, hamlet, FATE, dungeons, crystal tower, labrynth, leves, solo and party play, grand companies, free companies, crafting.... I'd say yes)
6) Stuff to do for hardcore gamers? (yes, see above)
7) Do people want to play this game? (yes, including gamers in the untapped PS3 market)

There will always be things for armchair game developers to second-guess. At the end of the day though, a game is either good or bad.

I've simply seen too much of FFXIV:ARR to honestly believe it will be bad.

Edited, Feb 28th 2013 10:26am by Thayos


Well said, I rated you up because I can Smiley: grin
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#49 Feb 28 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
I've simply seen too much of FFXIV:ARR to honestly believe it will be bad.
I felt the same way about Aliens: Colonial Marines.
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#50 Feb 28 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Geffe wrote:

Then there is Mass Effect 3, where the ending was redone.


Well... "Redone" is being extremely generous.

That's off topic, though. SE is throwing time, money, and talent at this project. Yoshi-P has made sure that he keeps the most important things at the forefront: the players.

It will be fine. Let's all just take a breath, and wait til open Beta in a couple months.
#51 Feb 28 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've simply seen too much of FFXIV:ARR to honestly believe it will be bad.


The gaming media didn't get its hands on the Aliens game until after it had launched. Meanwhile, game reviewers have been invited en masse to try out FFXIV.

The reviews have been mostly positive, with a hint of "be cautious, mainly because Version 1 was bad."
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